I'm gonna consolidate my gun collection in the next year and clean out some unproductive guns for a nice over / under and two fine hunting rifles. I want these two rifles to be my main rifles for the rest of my life! (And I'm 21.) I'm going to a good gunshow this weekend and might pick up some rifles.

Here's what I know I want: I want a .375H&H and a .30 cal (Haven't decided which caliber). I want controlled feeding, so that means Win M70 or Mauser.

My game plan is to eventually have the rifles refinished in a teflon matte finish. I'm going to put them in good synthetic stocks. (I want to minimize maintenance and I'm hard on things.) Of course they'll either end up w/ nice Leupolds or fine European optics in good rings and bases.

Any suggestions on actions? Should I buy new or buy used and plan on having them rebarreled down the road? Will CZ rifles last my lifetime?

Beartooth Bullets ran an excellent article on the minimal gain of the 300 mags. Beartooth Article Should I just stick w/ the .30-06?

I'd appreciate your experiences and suggestions.

You have a laudable goal to upgrade. Don't panic however. Sure enough you will freeze your butt off some winter and not get anything and sell the rifle as it's "bad luck"!

I have rifles that shoot fine that were made in the 1880's so they last. I have never regretted buying a Winchester M-70. I don't have any rusty rifles so blue with oil on it has proven to last.

I would not want a plastic coated carbon steel gun. Just like some old piece of furniture or boat part the plastic will be cracking off in 15 years and my blue Remington Hepburn made 120 years ago will still be blue!

Q.D.

I think that any commercial action of the type you are seeking will last two lifetimes or more. For caliber choice, I don't see much need for a 300 mag if you are going to have a .375 to go with it. An '06 or even a .308 would be perfecly adequate. Whatever you select, I'd suggest two of the same type for simplicity sake.

The weakness of any resonably priced factory synthetic rifle is that the "synthetic" stock is really tupperware. They are not very stiff or strong. The factory laminated stocks are a better choice as they are very strong and weather resistant (although maybe a bit heavier than plastic)

I'd suggest that you buy the 30 cal. first. (I'd do a mod. 70 stainless). Then, when the budget allows, add an aftermarket synthetic. Then a bit later, get the cannon, and then restock it when you can.

One question: Is Africa on your agenda? if not, why a .375? a .338 would probably be more useful in N. America.

JimF

Let me clarify my goals a bit.

I take most of my deer w/ a .45-70. I try to brake the shoulder so they don't run off my land. My Marlin 1895G has a Scout Scope and is a great brush rifle. Wouldn't ever trade it! It would be a great rifle for bear, but bruins are ususally better for bruins around here.

I want my new rifles to be the exact same except for maybe the optics. I do hope to go to Africa sometime say 5 or 10 years, so I'd really like a .375H&H.

The .300 would be for other hunting involving travel. I handload, so maybe I'd get an H&H! I don't want anything too hot that might lead to throat erosion. I have .308's now and like them, but they don't see much use. (That and my BLR81 is cursed!)

I hate most factory synthetic stocks! They really are ugly! The only reason I want to go w/ synthetic is that I'm prone to beat things around.

Thanks for the help!

[ 08-15-2002, 05:10: Message edited by: quickdraw ]

I gave up on the idea of having just a few perfect guns longer ago then you are old. I once had that foolish idea too. I never sold a gun that I didn't missed after I sold it. Don't worry you well be making enough money some day to have more then what you think now. Keep them all if your want good tough rifles buy Ruger stainless syt. One of the best buys on the market now.

How one would/can answer this depends a lot on your budget. IF you are not in a hurry to get these rifles completed and can afford to spend a fair pile of cash over time I would proceed as follows:
Buy 2 M70 rifles in 30/06 caliber to be used for their actions. Send these to D'arcy Echols and have him build you two of his LEGEND rifles, one in 300mag. and the other in 375H&H or 416Rem. These fiberglass stocked masterpieces will take care of any and all your hunting needs for the rest of your life and your children's as well. They can/do shoot like benchrest guns and are the absolute best made/thought out rifles I've ever seen or shot. Nothing is left unattended to on them, every detail is taken care of properly. They feed/function like a rifle is supposed to, the trigger is set properly, the scope mounts are beyond anything commercially available. All of this and a lot more adds up to a rifle you'll not see a need to replace in your lifetime. Once you handle and shoot one you will never see your other rifles in the same light again! They will absolutely spoil you as they have me. In fact, I'm "taking my own medicine" and selling off most of my other rifles to fund a set of these.
If your budget won't allow that sort of project:
Buy two M70s, this time in 300mag. and 375H&H or 416 Rem. Have them tuned up by Mark Penrod, and while he has them I'd instruct him to install a McMillan stock on each of them as well. You could also have some custom iron sights installed on the big gun if the factory sights don't suit your tastes.

[ 08-15-2002, 17:00: Message edited by: John S ]

CZ's are great rifles, and I tend to agree that the .300 win mags etc. do not offer that much over the 30/06. If I want more power than the 30/06 I would go for an increase in bore size and you will be doing that with your .375 H&H. So my vote is for a .375 H&H & 30/06. Your set for anything when you load these with woodliegh bullets.

I also agree with the post about the regrets I have had when I sell rifles.

Thanks guys.

I agree that trading guns is a dangerous idea. However, I have an SKS-D, AR-15 Receiver, and Marlin 39a that I'm getting rid of. I almost traded away my old Rem 870, but thought better than doing that.

My Browning is cursed and is the perfect little gun that never worked out. I'm thinking about letting it go, but plan to think twice about it.

Thanks again,
QD

To add to John S's post, I think an important thing is that he mentioned getting 30/06 M70s if the actions were going to Echols.

For a 300 H&H and 375 H&H, someone like Echols wants the 270 0r 30/06 action to start with.

However, for most gunsmiths, the 375 is the better action to start with. I will leave it to your imagination as to why.

In my opinion, for two rifles that are to be special, they should be 300 Magnum and 375 Magnum. If not those two, then 270 and 35 Whelen or similar. That is, similarity between the calibers, case size, bolt face etc.

Might I suggest a pair of M70 Stainless in 375 to kick of with and with the view to rebarreling one of them to 300 H&H.

If it turns out that you are going to make the money to do the Echolls rifle, then selling off those rifles will be no issue and replacing them with 30/06 actions will also not be an issue.

Either way, it is 300 and 375 Magnum

Mike

Mike can you explain to me why it is better to start with the .375 action for most gunsmiths ??

By this your saying the M70 .375 action is bigger than the M70 30/06 action (excuse my ignorance Mike).

PC,

Basically, the 270 and 375 M70s are the same action. That is, the receiver and bolt are the same length.

My knowledge on Echols is based on what John S has told me and also some email correspondence with Echols. One source of information did not cause a doubt in the other source.

It is far better that Echols changes a 270 M70 to 375 than Winchester doing it.

If you give Echols an M70 375, then he can't put back what Winchester removed and then remove it properly.

I think most gunsmiths are better off getting the M70 375 to start with, if the calibre is to be 375, 300 H&H, 300 Wby, 416 Remington etc.

If you don't believe me ask them. Tell them you want a 416 Remington made on an M70 and you have the opportunity to buy either a 375 in M70 or a 270 and which should you buy.

Mike

Does Echols' have a website?

How much does one run?

Thanks,
QD

Sending a gun to an "Echols" is rediculous. I read here that the price is $5,000.00 per gun just for his service!

This is a total waste of money for a normal person. I have guns that function perfectly that were made by factories just like my cars, boats etc.

Don,

If the people can pay the money and they decide to pay the money, then it must have been worth it for them.

A question for you.

On a scale of 0 to 100, with 100 being perfection, where would you put your guns, in terms of what you would like etc. etc.

Let us say they are an 80. If you had the money to spend to get them to a 90 or 95 you would do it. You would have to do it since you probably already spent some money (or time) in getting them to 80 and you know that the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

Mike

D'arcy Echols
P.O. Box 421
Millville, Utah 84326
phone- 435-755-6842

Echols will charge about $5500 to build a Legend rifle on your M70 action. Whether or not this is "worth it" is something everyone has to decide for themselves. How much is top class work and absolute reliability worth to you? Obviously some folks here don't value it as highly as others and that's fine, that's why there are many sources available at all levels of price.

Don-
Have you ever handled/shot an Echols' rifle? If not, how can you make such a statement. Is it based solely on his price? How do you know one of these masterpieces wouldn't be justified by the "common" person? Even "common" people make some guided hunts to far away places a few times in their life. And even if they don't, a rifle such as this would work just fine around home too! The topic was started by a young man who has his entire lifetime ahead of him to hunt. Would it not be far cheaper/better in the long run for him to just spend the money up front and get a couple of really well done rifles and then go about the rest of his life hunting?

[ 08-15-2002, 18:48: Message edited by: John S ]

Read that Beartooth article - interesting. So if I was you at the ripe old age of 21 what would I do? - well since this article got your attention and you have settled on the 375 I would vote for the 300 H&H. Assume you handload and a 300 H&H can be easily juiced up to perform equal to or within the shadow (180 gr @ 3000 fps plus) of any of the other 300 magnums. See Alliant reloading data on the net. With the exception of that Hornady Light Magnum stuff a 30-06, as fine as it is, is no 300 magnum. I have seen animals hit by both - there is a difference. Now you got North America and Africa covered and a classic duo to do battle with. Either action would be choice.

I'm in full agreement with John and Mike: excellent advice from these gentlemen. The inference that the .300s are cartridges of "marginal gain" is ludicrous to anyone who has extensive experience with these cartridges.

Don, I'm sure you mean well, but I'm equally sure that you're completely unfamiliar with Echols custom rifles. You're only looking at the up-front money issue, which can be a deceptive way of evaluating just about anything, especially long-term.

I have a battery of Echols "Legend" custom jobs, which is all that I hunt with any more. Out of over 200 big game rifles I've owned over the last thirty years, including many custom guns from other makers, these are easily the best hunting rifles I've ever owned and the best "gun money" I've ever spent. They are absolutely worth their cost, and they represent a lifetime investment. I've gotten rid of just about all of my other big game rifles in lieu of these.

I think a copy in .300 Winchester, .300 Weatherby, or .300 H&H (one of the three) teamed with another in .416 Remington would take in all of the world's big game hunting, and you simply wouldn't need any other hunting rifles ever again. If you ever do manage to shoot out a barrel, D'Arcy can easily install a new one for you, and your're back in business.

If you'd like, send an e-mail message my way with a mailing address and I'll send some solid information out to you about these rifles.

AD

On the "Echols" type rifle. I have not even seen a picture of one and only just heard of them here on this forum.

I don't buy for a second the "perfect functioning" mantra. I bet I can go over to the Newington Gun Exchange and take home a old M-70 for $700 that will "function perfectly"

Bolt action rifles have only a very few moving parts. Any person who can shoot a rifle should learn to take a rifle out of it's stock and check it out. That skill gained over the years is far more valuable than a "Echols" type rifle.

And those rifles have plastic stocks, UGH.

Show me an ad for one that is for sale used. What are they worth? A man at age 21 is saving for cars, girlfriends and maybe housing.

What a waste of money for absolutley anyone but a weathy person. I can appreciate an Allen Day talkiig about his "Echols" rifles and I bet they are all paid for too! Good for Allen. But they not even a want let alone a need.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Here are a few thoughtss, mostly things already mentioned.

.30-06 is an excellent choice for your first rifle. .375 is okay but I think you'll be happier with one of the the .338 Magnums.

The Ruger Mod77 has controled feed, is cheaper than Mod70, and is a product of the United States. Nothing wrong w/ Mod70 Classic, though. Try to resist that ugly BOSS system, ugh.

Blued steel and walnut still look best and are still a good buy UNLESS you are, say, guiding polar bear hunters on the Bering Sea. For the everyday sportsman, stainless and plastic are just an ugly fad.

Well, those are my opinions, worth every cent you paid for 'em.

Don, I'm sure we can all vouch for what great investments cars and women are when you're twenty-one years old............

But at least you like Model 70s - even those represented by mass-produced/hand-doctored, forty year-old technology.

It also comforts me to know that you've actually seen a picture of an Echols rifle, so now you can speak as an authority on same......

Your comment that fiberglass stocks are "ugly" is amusing. Pretty is as pretty does. Now, I've seen pre-64 Model 70s with their 1950s-technology varnish flaked off after a day-long gullywasher, as well as fancy, wood-stocked custom jobs with "traditional" oil finishes completely washed out of the pores after a wet snowstorm, and the results weren't exactly pretty, either - cosmetically or functionally!

AD

In would tend to agree with DonMartin29. The Full custom rfles can be beautiful works of art, but I don't see anywhere near the value from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint. At $5000 the Legend rifle is approxamatly 8 times the cost of a factory model 70 in most calibers. Does this mean it will be 8 times more reliable? And what does 8 times more reliable mean? I ahve been shooting for 31 years,and hunting biggame for 27. Never have I had a factory bolt action rifle fail function. I am not saying it won't happen in the future as I know parts can break but the parts can break on the custome rifles as well. If accuracy is the issue, then I would have to ask how much accuracy is enough for hunting big game. Will my Win. .270 shooting 3/4"-11/4" in groups cost me a deer or elk? then I suspect the custome rifle with the 1/2" groups would also.

Please understand that I am NOT trying to knock the high dollar custom rifles, I think they are wonderfull. I simply don't see the real world FUNCTIONAL value to support there cost. From an artistic or craftmanship veiw point then absolutely they can and do justify there cost.

And as some has allready said There is more than one right answer here. For the person with the money and inclination to own the customs, they are GREAT. I just don't want beginners getting the impression that they will be hopelessly ill equiped with a factory rifle. MANY of us have been using nothing else for many years and have had no regretts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allen day:
[QB]Don, I'm sure we can all vouch for what great investments cars and women are when you're twenty-one years old............
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Allen, When I was 22 I bought a 56 Corvette. It had the two four bbl carbs and the performance axle along with a hardtop too. I paid $1,325. for it and today it's worth $35,000.00. And for fun. This car was so much fun, never a problem. A rear spring broke, that's all.
--------------------------------------------------

But at least you like Model 70s - even those represented by mass-produced/hand-doctored, forty year-old technology.
--------------------------------------------------
Allen,

The 40 year old technology included the kind of workmanship that you pay extra for now but you don't get a forged bolt, instead you get a bolt that is soldered together with copper braze!
--------------------------------------------------
It also comforts me to know that you've actually seen a picture of an Echols rifle, so now you can speak as an authority on same......
--------------------------------------------------
Show me a picture. What is there to see anyway? A plastic stock?
--------------------------------------------------

Your comment that fiberglass stocks are "ugly" is amusing. Pretty is as pretty does. Now, I've seen pre-64 Model 70s with their 1950s-technology varnish flaked off after a day-long gullywasher, as well as fancy, wood-stocked custom jobs with "traditional" oil finishes completely washed out of the pores after a wet snowstorm, and the results weren't exactly pretty, either - cosmetically or functionally!
--------------------------------------------------
Yes wood stocks do have drawbacks but they work for me.


--------------------------------------------------

Quickdraw,
I think you are on the right track on consolidating if you are on a limited budget like most of us. If this will alow you to get to Africa sooner. Unless you think it is MORE fun to fill a gun safe. Up to the individual.
Take a factory 300 win. or 375 H&H and I'll bet your trophy kudu won't know whether he was shot with a $5500 Echols or not. Now I don't want to upset my custom rifle building friends but they already know that some guys just like to brag about how much they spent on that new custom rifle. Take that money you saved and go hunting. IMHO

Don,
No common 22 year old should be buying something like a Corvette! And just for fun? How is that different than paying a lot for a "hot rod" rifle?
Do you still have that 'Vette today? If so, you spent your money wisely and it has rewarded you with many years of trouble free service and lots of fun. Owning a gun could be and is quite similar IF the money is spent wisely.
Also, I assure you that no stock pre'64 M70 is even close to what a M70 done by Echols is. Being able to remove the stock, bed an action or even adjust the trigger doesn't make someone a gunsmith! Without benefit of actually handling and shooting one there is no way you'll ever be convinced otherwise, so I won't belabor the point. And, if you do see one for sale in used but good condition, please drop me an email ASAP because I'd love to skip the wait for my second one.

[ 08-16-2002, 00:08: Message edited by: John S ]

I sold the Corvette and bought a house in VT with the profit. I still have the house. It's worth more than a Corvette now.

I don't even want a "Echols" rifle, it smacks of a solution to a non problem. And I don't want some "smith" touching mine. I can do it myself and then I know it's done right. I can't imagine what he would do to my M-70's. Good grief, I like them just as they are.

Like they said at the range. "Cease fire while custom gunsmith retrieves his front sight" We had a fancy gunsmith here in Woodbury, CT. He knew it all. It took forever for him to get things done too. He was a lousy shot too and in a big bore match his front sight came loose on the dovetails and fell down the bank in front on the firing line out of reach!

What does Echols do about the soldered on bolt handles on the "Classic M-70"? Does he pin them or make a new bolt from a forging like my rifles. That's what should be done, a new forged bolt. For $5,000.00 that's what he must do for sure?

I can see getting a "custom" rifle. I have two of them. I have my fill of it and I hunt with my tweaked M99's, #1's and M-70's. As J Paul Getty said "you want something done right then do it yourself".

Don,
It's like I said earlier, without actually handling, examining and shooting one you will never know. And believe me, I think pretty highly of an old M70 myself. That said, if you believe that your skills are equal to his, more power to ya! Sounds like most of your "experience" with custom 'smiths hasn't been satisfactory. I've had my share of bad experiences with them too, and these were/are some of the bigger names in the business. The problem with them is that they are focused on how a gun looks rather than how it functions.
Mr. Echols makes guns that function. It's a shame you've been soured to the custom gun by some ham handed nitwit.

[ 08-16-2002, 02:20: Message edited by: John S ]

Alan,

I have shot a fair bit of game with a 30/06 & have witnessed a fair bit shot with a .300 win mag. And I will stand by what I say in that in my opinion if I want more power than my 30/06 I will step up a bore size, to get it not just drive the same bullets a little faster. I own a 30/06 so it would make more sense for me to step up to a .338 win mag or .375 H&H in my opinion than to a .300 mag. I am not doubting that the .300 win mag will "do it a little better", just I like to get a perfromance increase by moving up in bore diamter. And I am adamant that an increase in bore size will "do it a lot better".

Unfortunately Allen I am a little restricted in my own movements up at the moment as it goes from .30/06 to .416 Rigby. So I have a little gap to fill there

To be honest Allan a lot of people would be well served with a 30/06, .338 win mag & say a .416 in some style. Then it woould be a pretty boring forum wouldn't it. That being said it's horses for courses and while I see the gains of the .300 mags minimal over the 30/06 it is not due to lack of field experience as over my short shooting carrer I have shot a little bit of game and wittnessed a hell of a lot more shot with a variety of calibres by the people whom have accompanied me. This is how many of my opinions have been formualted.

Thanks for that Mike & I do believe you mate I just honestly wanted to know why Echolls wanted the .270 M70. I usually learn something everytime I log on Mike.

I agree with the sentiments of an -06 or 300 win mag for a small bore, and for the medium, a 375 or 416.

I'm trying to think of an analogy for the differences between a factory rifle, and one that Mr. Echols has worked on (though I admit having never handled one of his rifles, simply having a good understanding of what a good gunsmith is).

Would one recomend racing the Baja 1000 in a show room stock truck? How much would one expect to invest to make that truck race ready?

If one is content with factory rifles, then go that route. My personal opinion is that at a minimum, all factory guns need a qualified gunsmith to tune the trigger, and bed the action. As far as how much further one goes then that, it is up to your desires and budget.

There is a misconception that factory rifles are perfection from the plant. I don't think that is quite right, they are designed and built to be sold for $500-700, not to be the be all and end all of quality firearms.

I prefer working on my own guns, but realize that to become a good gunsmith takes years of honing ones skills, as well as thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

One last comment on custom/customizing, I see three options, factory stock, factory w/ a new tube from Pac Nor and a new plastic stock ~$1500-2000k, or go all the way for D'Arcy. There are many "gunsmiths" that will charge you $3k or more, but in that case, you will be wasting your $.

JohnS,

It's news to me that a new rifle needs more work. Like you said the old concept of a "custom" rifle was a special stock like something O'Connor might have from Al Biesen or Keith Stegal stock. I am not sour on gunsmiths at all. I am just not buying the concept that a new or for that matter a used rifle is no good until someone else touches it.

I have a couple of rifles made by the late Floyd Butler of Poultney, VT. Floyd worked for a low price and would only do work for you if he liked you. His stockwork, from a blank, is a work of art with subtle features that are his signature.

But that is the old way, a work of art. Somehow I don't understand how a plastic stocked rifle by anyone can be special to hold? Not long ago I found a pair of Dakota 76' for sale in a shop here. One had really special wood (nothing like Saeeds David Miller however) and was a fine piece. They were asking about $3000 as I recall. But I have my fill of them. The Butler rifles are just as good looking if not as fine as a Dakota.

If someone is happy then they are "well paid" as the Bard says. So go ahead and pay someone $5,000 for I don't know what?

Show me a picture. It says a thousand words.

Can one of the owner of a Echol's Legend fill me in as to what is "better" when compared to a factory rifle with a tuned trigger, a lapped bolt, corrected head space, and proper bedding?

I am not attempting at being antagonistic with this post. I am sincerely trying to understand what the tactile differences are. I own several custom rifles, and some are worth more than $5000. With the exception of proper LOP I find little functional difference bewteen a broken in factory rifle with the aforementioned work and my customs. What is it about the action work that makes it better? Please tell me. Send me a private message if you are afraid of starting a public arguement.

Thanks,
SRS

Don,

I think it is all pretty simple really and it is covered by what you want.

A 303 SMLE with its 10 shot detachable magazine will take a lot of beating......but do you want one.

You can go to a cheap restaurant and travel to and come home by taxi and drink cheap wine. On the other hand, you can travel by hire car to an expensive restaurant, drink Krug champagne and come home by hire car. The degree of intoxication and nutritional value will be the same for either outing. I think it is reasonable to say that approximately 99.9999999999% of people would prefer the latter evening out, but perhaps for many people they can't afford it or it is not worth it to them.

However, the odds of the night out at the better restaurant being more "reliable" are greater, just on the taxi Vs hire car issue alone.

I can certainly see you side with function etc, but again it comes down to what you want.

For example, I already know that if I have a very good barrel on an action that has mount screws out of line or the barrel thread crooked, then I can put Leupold Dual dovetail mounts on and with either shimming for vertical or bedding the mounts to correct windage problems (the sides of the rings are ground out), I will have a shooter.

But I would much rather not have that sort of messy thing.

In my opinion, where the Echols rifle is similar to the good restaurant/hire car is niceness and convenience.

It does not matter whose barrel you use there will always be some examples that are not as good as they might be. Echols will have already processed the crook barrel out. I know from talking to John S that the rifle comes ready to go with loads for bullets that you wish to use.

Consider the following:

Leaving resale value to one side, if someone offered you a standard out of the box M70 or an Echols rifle on the M70, and both for the same price, that is the price of the standard M70, which rifle would you take and why? Also, you must go shooting with the rifle as it comes, no alterations, tuning up etc.

Now it is obvious that the Echols rifle will be superior so when we move onto the actual cost of the Echols, it simply comes down to the fact that with the right combination of desire and income, an Echols rifle will be purchased.

If a 303 SMLE makes a man happy he will be short on desire for the Echols. If his income earning ability is limited, then he will run onto money problems.

Mike

Don,
Precision Shooting, volume 48 has an Echols rifle on it's cover. This one was done on a laminated wood stock. There was also a magazine published a couple of years ago that was dedicated to the M70. This also has several photos of his work. Just recently, Rifle magazine contained a write up on them, done by John Barnesness.
I would ask Allen to go through the procedures that D'arcy performs in making one of his rifles, as he is much better versed in that than I.
Just my preference, but I've owned many a custom made rifle, plus rifles done by the custom shops of both Remington and Winchester, plus too many factory made rifles to count. I've not been as totally satisfied with the product as I am with what Echols has built for me thus far.

[ 08-16-2002, 04:52: Message edited by: John S ]

Mike 375,

Your analogy is failed as there is no problem. I still don't understand what an "Echols" does. I want to see it. Show me a picture.

And a man does not choose either or. My choice is to keep the money and look at the rifle myself. That's the most reliable rifle.

Don Martin29,

Am I to take it that you would prefer to have a standar M70 than the Echols rifle if the price was the same?

Mike

Mike375,

With all due respect it's impossible for anyone to get more for nothing unless it's stolen.

Everyday we make purchasing decisions based upon value and of course a "Echols" rifle is the better choice if there is a problem with the initial rifle. But if it ain't broke then don't fix it.

I used to field questions like this all the time from my son when he was nine. The good old "what if's" you may remember.

Don,
Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I have finally grasped what it is you're saying.
If a factory produced rifle, tweaked a bit by yourself, produces satisfactory groups, feeds okay and feels good in your hands then you are happy and feel no need or justification to spend extra money on a custom rifle?

Don, from your post:

and of course a "Echols" rifle is the better choice if there is a problem with the initial rifle

The Echols rifle is removing this issue to start with. Check a thread on Big Bores, a topic called M70 Pt 3 or similar.

But the Echols rifles and similar will for many people just be a nicer a way to go and a nicer rifle to use.

A similar thing is seen with using a Rem 700 repeater action in a single shot stock with an aluminium plate glued into the action to maka it easy to feed single shot, as compared to having a Remington 40X or a Stolle or a Nesika Bay action.

You would need to test several of those combinations before you demonstrated any real accuracy advantage of one over the other.

But I would for one, would rather have the 40 X or Nesika Bay action.

But I like nice things and if I spent more time working than posting on this forum then I could afford more nice things and and even nicer things

Mike

Thanks for all of the advice. However you have to remember that at my age a car can be an excellent investment. (You can make more money in the second you say I do than in the whole rest of your life.)

I'm definitely gonna pick up some M70's. Seems to me to be a better long term investment than CZ's or Daly's.

I don't think I'd put $5k in a bolt rifle. Any good smith can tune up a rifle for a couple hundred bucks max. I'm sure Echol's rifles are perfect, but I'd rather save the money and get to Africa sooner.

The way I see it, my smith can tune up the rifle for a couple hundred bucks. I can get a stock for a few hundred more. The glass will probably cost just as much as the rifle, but I don't even want to think on that yet!

Again, thanks for that advice. (And beware, that email on reply option can be dangerous!)

Best,
QD