Don - Cars are the worst financial investment imaginable, but women like prefer guys with nicer cars. Most rich lawyers I know got rich by marriage and not from their practice.

Hope you appreciate my humor.

Best,
QD

During this discussion today I did make it away from the keyboard long enough to lube the Corvette. I was thinking of "Echols" and there is this damm grease fitting way inside these wide wheels (275-40-17) that requires taking the wheel off to get the grease in. This time I straightened out the fitting and the nozzel on the grease gun just like Echols would and the grease went into the fitting and not on the rim.

Don't get a Corvette for your plan. There is no room for babies and woman notice that right away. Get something with four doors.

This is getting real old . I like a real wood stock and real blued steel. That is just my taste in firearms. If you like stainless rifles and laminated stocks so be it. But you have no sence for tradition, but maybe that's not that bad in this day.BTW ...have owned several handguns in stainless steel....they have all found happy owners elsewhere. The former owner and new owners are happy. Want to buy a fluted heavy barreled(stainlees 10/22?). Still like blued steel and real wood.

Dan, I have plenty of sense of tradition. A double square bridge Mauser built by an English maker or Griffin & Howe is just a little hard to get into right now. Personally I think doubles look the best. Fine walnut is one of the most beautiful things on earth. However, where I live the humidity is close to 100% for much of the summer and still up there during deer season (i.e. nice rifles don't look too nice for long unless they stay in your humidity controlled safe.)

I understand that a lot of this board's members rightly prefer walnut and blued steel, but it doesn't make sense for everybody.

-QD

[ 08-16-2002, 17:23: Message edited by: quickdraw ]

I can appreciate nice pieces of wood but I I hate the look of dinged up pieces of wood too so for me it's stainless/synthetics. And I really like the look of SS rifles to, I do not know why but I just do.

Don, I certainly do respect you decision to stick with factory rifles if they work well for your particular needs.

What I don't buy into is your blanket pronouncement that custom rifles offer no advantages over factory rifles, or that the cost (that's the real sticker with you, isn't it?) makes them a "stupid" investment. Quite honestly, you're not well-versed enough (from what you've said) with the differences between the two to make that call one way or the other in an objective fashion.

I can say this: If you get to the point where you've had a catastophic rifle failure on a dangerous game hunt, or a major mechanical failure on an expensive hunt far from home (I have, and I have) then the actual cost of a hunting rifle takes on a whole new meaning that goes beyond childish cosmetic considerations or step-over-a-dollar-to-pick-up-a-dime monetary considerations. In that light, a no-compromise, built-for-reliability rifle like D'Arcy's starts taking on a whole new meaning. Someone said on this thread that such a rifle isn't worth the price of eight factory rifles, or something to that effect. Well, no it's not....... It's worth a great deal more than that....... The comparison goes beyond price.......

One of my friends, who has hunted dangerous game extensively and who insisted on finely-adjusted custom bolt-guns for such hunting, made this comment about such hardware to me when I was twenty: "It's a matter your money or your life, Son, your money or your life...." As I found out years later, he was absolutely correct!

A riflesmith like Echols - and there are only a tiny handful of men like him who know what he knows and can execute the work - actually understand the Model 70 action better than the men who invented it. Echols takes these actions through 82 modifications and procedures from start to finish to build the most reliable, accurate, fool-proof rifle possible. Just about everything is thrown away except for the trigger group, bolt group, and receiver, and these parts are greatly modified. The work goes beyond the capability of any factory to replicate, and most certainly beyond the capability of some jackleg, kitchen-table, at-home, would-be gunsmith (that's my catagory!) performing simple proceedures on a stock factory gun.

Custom rifles that are made to really hunt with and that are built without compromise are an insurance policy of the most practical, fundamental, bedrock form (life & casualty) from my perspective, and they are an extremely sound investment. Price some African and Alaskan hunts, plus factor in the risk ingredients and just maybe you'll catch a clue as to why guys like me drop the money on such rifles.

AD

[ 08-16-2002, 20:02: Message edited by: allen day ]

Allen,

I wager that 99.4% of us get most of their game with almost stock rifles. It's like not having seen Paris. I haven't seen it and I don't have an interest in it except as intellectual curiosity. Now that curiosity has been raised and over and over I ask for a picture of an Echols rifle. A picture says a thousand words. Also is there a site that lists what these improvements are?

I do know what $5,000 is however. It's a dear amount to me. Now I bought my first new M-70 in 1957. I appreciate the quality of a M-70, it's look and function and I have used M-70's since then for competative target shooting, hunting and plinking. At no time did these rifle fail in any way. Perhaps it's the operator?

For guns I have found that with my ability (it's more I think I can attitude proven by time and experiance) I can get any rifle to function ok. If not it goes "for a walk down gun show lane" as Ray calls it.

So if you can't do it then hire it. But I have never had a rifle fail in any way and I have been reloading since 1953.

Now guns are inexpensive as compared to houses and cars. I have been to Holland and Holland, Boss and Gibbs and seen their stuff and it's just bragging stuff, that's all. Now we all like to brag. And as I pointed out guns are cheap so it's something we can buy to talk about. But to brag about a M-70 that won't function for you and functions for a half million others puts you out on a limb.

I am looking for a nice side by side pheasant gun. I suppose I fall for style too but guns function for me.

Now I recall a Stevens single shot 20 ga that the hammer spring broke on as I cocked it to fire and a push feed M-70 that I broke the extractor on by trying to open the half closed bolt on a too tight reload.

Then the forcing cone split on a Python.

That's all. Nary a failure with old M-70's, 99's or #1. Not Mausers, Woodsmans or Garands either.

Don,

It is not only a case of "if it functions" but how nicely it functions.

In some ways this is similar to accuracy.

Many people on these forums, like those shooters that I will often meet at the range, talk about accuracy in terms of half inch groups, so why do they need or want a real well set up rifle with a "hummer" barrel.

Until you let them shoot one quite a bit and they soon discover that there are different versions of half inch grouping.

But at the the end of the day it comes down to the combination of money you have and your desire for something.

You or I can't put together a rifle package as good as Echols and others are able. If I could do it, then I would do a few and sell then to Allen Day

I think you are also judging the money issue from your perspective.

In the last week or so I ordered jacketed bullet making gear from Richard Corbin in 416 bore size. Cost me about $1500US with shipping to Australia.

Why did I do it. Certainly a 416 Wby will blast kangaroos, pigs and rocks quite nicely with Woodleigh or Speer 350 grainers. Well I did it because I will have better bullets for what I want and I can afford the gear quite easily.

If I feel like using a 313.7 grain hollow point, then I will do it. Obviously the gain won't be that much over the standard bullet and for the price of the gear I could buy a wheel barrow full of bullets. But if I can afford it quite easily, why should I deprive myself of the pleasure of having something better?

The Echols type rifle will fall into the same category for the shooter who wants to push on a bit further and can afford it and in the process make his life hassle free.

Mike

[ 08-16-2002, 21:23: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Just back from the range. And who says I can't do as well as D'Arcy Echols? I shot my old M-70 that I got this last winter. It's a stock .300 H&H except for the recoil pad and that I have adjusted the trigger and tightened the guard screws properly. This information on how to do this has been common knowledge for at least 50 years.

So the first shot from a bbl that I did not bother to clean from the last time I shot it hit where expected. This is important that it stayed sighted in. The next two shots when thru the same hole at 100 yds. I was a little surprised as I substituted selected Corelokts in place of the Sierra's I usually shoot in the summer. The fourth shot opened to 0.5" and the fifth to .9".

This is a little better than the rifle usually does but it's a one MOA rifle for sure. All rounds were fed thru the mag also and it functioned perfectly. Why not?

The load is surplus 4831, 215's and 165 gr bullets.

Would I trade this rifle for a "Echols" rifle. No way.

I am not sure a stock factory rifle is all that much cheaper. They just become used guns while a good custom job from a decent shop may very well appreciate. Mine have.

There is plenty of truth in the fact the nicer guns hold more value and are much more likely to gain in value than guns that aren't as nice.

--QD

It probably does come down to how much funds one has available over and above that required for there living standards etc.

If I had the money to afford one of these Echols M70's there is no doubt I would get one. I think most people are in the boat however of being able to afford a factory rifle and then get a little work done to it. For example I have just spent a small fortune building a .585 Nyati rifle. I had no choice but to go down the custom road, due to the fact no company makes one as standard. I can tell you however that I am living beyond my meand with this purchase and if I could have purchased it off the shelf in a CZ or M70 I would. I realise my limitations with cash at the minute and I pretty well have to settle for off the shelf stuff. So I think custom rifles, cars whatever, is often dependant on the level of income a person receives.

But the topic is not if custom rifle work is good. The topic is what should a 21 year old do for rifles and secondary is a factory rifle checked out by it's owner adequate or not? And the obvious answer is that the factory rifle is just fine.

Of course a wealthy person may be all thumbs and not be able to even sight in a gun. There are services for them. (Winchester even made a thumb trigger rifle).

But for anyone who can change a light bulb, change his oil or put in a window aircondidtioner can check out a rifle that the screws are tight and by reading adjust the trigger.

Some more effort and handloading can be done.

Or are some of you unable to do these things and waiting for someone else to tighten a screw for you?

I have done way better than "Echols" come to think of it. I have a better looking rifle, got it right away, I still have the $5,000 and I am independent. Thats most important.

Don your talking to a Welfare worker here, I need to ask the screws on my rifles how they feel about being tightened

Some people are just not mechanically minded at all, I reload my ammo & know how to check screws etc. but to be honest that's about it I'm stuck with having to pay for services in many circumstances.

I also acknowledge were off topic.

[ 08-17-2002, 03:23: Message edited by: PC ]

Don,

A properly set up rifle in sporting rifle configuration and in calibers from 270 to 300 Magnum should shoot right around .5" average If it won't do that then it is because something is wrong with it.

Now whether you want or need that level accuracy is a separate issue.

In my case, the rifle you are describing is something that I would bury and without last rites.

Now to get a rifle together that is a genuine half inch rifle can cost a fair bit of money. For example, you won't necessarily get it from one barrel, especially if the accuracy is to come from a particular bullet or bullets you may wish to use.

It is like car racing. The team with the big budget has more engines to play with.

What Echols and others are doing is to put togther the "racing car" aspect of the rifle, that is the accuracy, and then completing the deal with a very nicely functioning gun.

Don, with respect, your post on your rifle's accuracy is somewhat similar to people who say how accurate their heavy barrel Rem 700 is in 22/250. Compared to a bench style gun (which in Light Varmint will weigh no more)the other rifle is a pattern shooter.

As to the original topic, it is not known what the man's financial situation or what his desires are. He could for example be a real go getter and make the dollars and perhaps and Echols rifle or similar could be one more driving factor.

Mike

Mike375,

Do a search on my posts. I always shoot my heavy kickers from a hand held postition. I hold the forend with my left hand and rest my wrist against the bag. I don't use a butt bag either for this position. I do put a piece of smooth plastic under my right elbow however to keep the skin on. I aim just like I do in position shooting and get the shot to go off as it moves towards the target center. Sometimes my let off is imperfect and I remember the letoff and factor that in the group. In the case of the group I fired today the shots went off better than the usually do. By the fifth shot I did not really aim it with all that much effort as I could see it was shooting well as always. I am really interested in that first shot. The others really don't matter much in game hunting.

Your standard of 0.5" at 100 yards to try to put off my nice old M-70 does not cut it Mike.

The best group is a single shot. That's my standard. You should have asked.

Don,

You have missed the point.

It is quite simply that some people want more than you want.

It is like income. Some people are happy enough on what they earn or to put it another way, they are not unhappy enough to do something about it.

But your postition that your Model 70 is better than the Echols rifle is ridiculous. That your Model 70 is satisfactory for you is a separate issue.

Again, get the Rem Sendero in 22/250 and start banging out 5 groups of 5 shots each and you will soon see it is way out of its class compared to a proper bench gun of the same weight. The bench gun is simply better.

If the Sendero shooter can't afford the bench gun or lacks desire for that level of accuracy, that does not alter the fact that the bench gun is superior.

Mike

First of all you have no evidence that a "Echols" rifle will shoot better than my rifles or even as well.

Second you miss the point that my rifle is something that I can do myself.

Finally anyone but a very wealthy person would be foolish to spend $5,000 on a hunting rifle and end up with a plastic stock and a soldered together bolt. And I am not impressed at all.

Nobody has listed what is done to these rifles or shown a picture. It's all subjective.

Don, yours in bold:

First of all you have no evidence that a "Echols" rifle will shoot better than my rifles or even as well.

But I do. I have spoken to John S many times both on the phone and via email plus I have some awareness as to what Echols does and that can only result in accuracy. Also John S has gone down the road of Echols after seeing Allen Day's rifles in action. Remember we are not talking about gun owners here that think Echols rifles shoot well because they have nothing to compare it with. You have no direct evidence that America landed a man on the moon and brought him home. Does that mean you do not believe it happened.

We know from your previous posting that your testing is very limited and hardly the ideal setup for accuracy testing.

Second you miss the point that my rifle is something that I can do myself.

Are you telling me that if you were having a heart attack you would limit the treatment to what you could apply yourself. You would only do that if did not care much about the result. Do you use someone else's barrel and action or do you make your own? The fact that you work on your rifle does not mean much in terms of accuracy because as you explained in a previous post your standards are very low. Remember your rest system and the one shot group.

Finally anyone but a very wealthy person would be foolish to spend $5,000 on a hunting rifle and end up with a plastic stock and a soldered together bolt. And I am not impressed at all.

Again you are quite wrong. I am not sure but I think an Echols rifle with wood stock is about $12000US or so. Some shooters that could only afford $5000US might just prefer the Echols metal work and scope mounts and not have the the wood stock rather than a lesser rifle with walnut stiock. Some shooters might also want the Echols quality but at the same time have the practicality afforded by the fiberglass stock. For the money they spend they could just as easily have used Pre 64 actions with one piece bolt, but they chose not to. However, as John S previously pointed out, you can have Echols do his work with a Pre 64 and I happen to know John S is doing that with a 270. Perhaps for 375 and 416 Remington they prefer the longer action of the current M70. In your case you might prefer the shorter Pre 64 action.

Nobody has listed what is done to these rifles or shown a picture. It's all subjective

Allen Day has mentioned it many times. But I don't think it would make any difference to you. Again, if you refer back to your testing for accuracy, the Echols rifle would be wasted on you. However, the fact that the Echols rifle is wasted on you does not mean it is only equal to your rifle.

Mike

[ 08-17-2002, 11:24: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Quickdraw,

I'm going to make a stab at getting this one back on topic. Have you ever looked at H-S Precision?? They have a 3-position safety and a 1/2" guarantee for anything under 30 cal. and a 1" guarantee for anything over 30 cal. Their website is: http://www.hsprecision.com/

If I were going to unload all my guns for something very special, I would look long and hard at these. In addition, if you really wanted to be familiar with your setup, they offer a takedown version that would allow you to own one gun in two completely different calibers. That would be WAAAAYYYY kewl!!!! Let me know what you think!

[ 08-17-2002, 11:31: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

First off:
Buy three rifles, not two.
Use the same scope on all of em.

My caliber choices are
22 long rifle
30-06 or 308
and 375 or 416

There are rifles that can shoot very well, for 300-500 dollars. I currently have a much maligned 452 training rifle, with an elite 3200 3x-9 on it, that shoots inside the x, not the x ring, at 25 yards off the bench. In otherwords, one hole.

My 06 has been in the shop for 6 months, getting a new stock, new trigger, new recoil pad, and bedded.
Had it for 20 years, and it shot 2 inches. Not good, but adequate. 175 dollars, Interarm Mark X, with scope.

CZ 550 Safari grade, and Savage Tactical rifles are capable of sub 1" at 100 yards, for between 300-500 dollars.

If not, you have a good action to start a custom on.

I thought the Mauser ejectors more desireable then the Winchester. Am I missing something?

s

The Winchester ejector system eliminated the milled slot through the left bolt lug, as with the Mauser 98. This is viewed as an advantage for the Model 70 in terms of increased strength in that area of the action.

Don, I think you're enjoying this whole debate....

You know, I started out with a long response that was mostly directed at your own misinformed assumptions, but I get a little burned out trying to fight stubborn ignorance day after day. So I edited 90% of the post out. You're just not worth arguing with.........

AD

[ 08-17-2002, 19:08: Message edited by: allen day ]

It's a new thought that someone would spend more than a cost of a barrel on a rifle for function. I had never heard of "Echols" and I put the name in italics as I have always ment other competitors of his also.

Now there are plenty of products that are of no use. Jewelry, Rolex watches etc. all take skill to make but are just decorations.

I suspect that some fans of this "Echols" idea have never had a really accurate factory rifle. I don't know why. Maybe they can't really aim well or perhaps don't have rudimentary skills.

My point that I can do it better says that an average person can buy a factory rifle, new or used and tweak it to become a shooter if necessary. When the groups in my 722 .222R opened up to 5/8" groups after thousands of shots I bought a new M-700 in .222R to replace it. I ran the numbers and in terms of work, trade in and ease it was the path of least resistance. Franky it did not occur to me to spend $12,000 is it now to get a wood stocked rifle. The new M-700 had a better stock so I could aim it better and it was even more accurate. I entered a bench rest match with it and won first place for the rifles class.

With just good aiming and ammo that rifle would shoot very small groups.

So it's just common sense to hunt with a factory rifle.

An aqaintance of mine is a retired plumber. Somehow he made a lot of money from hard work and investments. He wears a Rolex. I am not impresssed. I think he is. We are both happy.

This is clearly a solution to a non problem. Some of us here are living Y2K every day of their lives. But the rest of it is the throw away society. In the book "Citizen Soldier" Ambrose makes the point is that an obvious reason for the steady advance of the US Army was not fighting ability or weapons. It was the ability of the average American who grew up working on his dad's car to fix things. It was observed that there was abandoned German machinery all over the place but the skills of the American GI kept in many cases even inferior things working.

I think this is a lot of it here.

I salute your wealth however. Now I want to go and put a new impeller in the water heating system I developed for my boat. It takes up less room and weights a lot less than a conventional system. I bet "Echols" can do that too around the house/car/guns!

Don,

Your assumption that anyone who buys good gear is someone who can't fix or do anything to the rifle is quite wrong.

Many bench shooters can chamber a barrel but will still buy a Stolle or Nesika Bay action because they can't make the action.

Can you make an action or barrel?

I can do about whatever can be done to a Model 70 trigger with a grinding wheel and a new trigger return spring, but I can't make it equal a 3 lever Jewell trigger.

I must have bedded literally hundreds of rifles, but I can't a make a barrel, so to improve on the factory barrel I have to get a match grade barrel.

Do you have a scope on your 300 H&H or just use open sights that came with it. If you use a scope, what sort of scope or did you make the scope yourself.

Mike

QD, has this gotten too weird for you? or are you still listening?

I started shooting and hunting at about your age. I started w a used rem 760 in .270. Later, when I could afford a new gun, I decided that I was gonna get myself a rifle to last a lifetime. It was a Sako "Finnbear" in 7 mag. Now, 30 years later, I've been through 30 or so rifles in 12 calibers. I currently don't own a factory stock rifle, but I don't own any 5K rifles either.

The point being??

There are very serviceable rifles available from the factories. They can be improved with a little tuning. Then, there are several levels of "custom"
These go all the way from "tuned" factory, to rebarreled factory, all the way up to "works of art"

What do you need?

Get a mod 70 30-06 with a laminated stock and a top notch scope. If accuracy is a big concern, then take it to a top notch tuner and it'll be under 1" @ 100 almost for sure. Keep this rifle for a few years, and evaluate whether you are happy with it. Then address the .375 later, and decide for youself whether you want a "better" level of rifle.

FWIW: I have owned a couple of "pieces of art" in the past, but now, my custom efforts are geared toward light weight and accuracy because that's what is important to ME.

JimF

My My what a contest, as a recall, my first computer that I bought in 1995 cost me around 5000 dollars. Lets see, I can get 20 times more computer for around 600 bucks. I think I would have been better off with one of Echol's rifles. Just goes to tell you that some things are worth what you pay and others well wait for a bit. As for Rolexes I been wearing the same one I bought in 1970. Some people just like nice things. Oh and I drive a 12 year old Volkswagen. Like I said, money is best spent on things that will last and hold value. When you buy good stuff from the start, you only have to buy it once. Take care of your car, and it will last for 20 years or better, take a good rifle and your great grand child will be shooting it a 100 years from now.

George,

I stopped at the Blue Trail Range this afternoon (must be the biggest range in New England) and spoke to the owner (who I have know for 45 years) I asked him what he thought of D'Arcy Echols rifles. He said he never heard of him! He shoots on an international level and yes Mike375 has been to Australia numerous times for matches. He has a gunshop there that's open 7 days a week. Marlin Firearms was there today for a family picnic.

But they don't carry the Handloader or Rifle like I hoped but do carry the Precision Shooting mags. They have a old Super Grade M-70 there in 30/06 for $1,600.

By heck, Don, if that rangemaster hasn't hear of somebody, that's just gotta be conclusive proof that the person in question just isn't what they're cracked up to be, isn't it?

Until you decided to showcase your ignorance on this website, nobody's managed to hear of you, either, Cowboy..........

AD

Don-
When I first started frequenting various hunting forums I happened to see some of Ray Atkinson's posts. I'd never heard of him so asked my own agent if they knew of him. Ray Who? Where is he located? Now these folks are members of the AAPHFC, been in the bizz for over 25yrs, etc and they'd never even heard of Ray. Imagine that! And your point is?

JimF, I think this conversation has gone slightly overboard. The only thing I've learned is that I DO want to buy a M70 and not a Mauser.

I've shot since I was 5 and am pretty handy, but really need to upgrade my guns (and I can right now)!

Socrates, I do own three 22 rifles! Using the same scope is a poor idea for many reasons. For one a 22 scope needs to be adjusted to 50ft of parallax, which is not standard on most scopes. Second, moving scopes around wears rings and bases making the fit and accuracy worse. Third, that would just be a bitch to sight in.

Nebraska, I looked at HS Precision that's something I should look more at.

Here's the real question now: is a Dakota M97 worth the money?

Thanks for all of you who have helped.

Best,
QD

[ 08-18-2002, 04:57: Message edited by: quickdraw ]

Don,

You are not addressing the issues I put to you, such as those in my last couple of postings.

Your last post shows you are now down to the range master has not heard of Echols and of course explains why you can't tackle issues put to you.

It appears to me that anything that is beyond your financial reach is something you just don't like and that is your problem with Echol's rifles.

This maybe too much for you to come to grips with, but there are people who enjoy having something better than the ordinary or aspiring to be able to have something better than the ordinary and that my friend is the basis of great countries like America or Australia and many others.

Mike

[ 08-18-2002, 05:30: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike375, Allen Day and John S,

You gave the wrong advice in this case. It's apparant that Winchester has made about a million M-70's and your expert has made a few hundred. Thats 1/10000 or a tenth as we call it here. Nobody does what you do. Only 1 in 10,000.

Of course we all like the best. That's why I do the work myself. I drive the greatest car of the 20th century, shoot the riflemans rifle (tuned by me) and sail a fine yacht.

I hunt birds with a Sauer and shoot matches with a 40-X.

I would not hand my rifle to another and turn my back. I can do it myself.

I had heard of Atkinson Safari's or Outfitters. It's nice to have a real person like Ray here.

I live in CT. My dad was the owner and founder of a tool and die shop here. I worked there part time but most of the time I was in school. Now we had machinery and we could make almost anything out of metal. Nothing was thrown out. Everything was fixed.

These were the good old days. Rifles were simple things to my dad. Nothing to get worked up over and easy to improve. There were harder things than that to do like the aircraft work.

Think you can or think you can't. Either way you will be right!

[ 08-18-2002, 08:36: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

You gave the wrong advice in this case. It's apparant that Winchester has made about a million M-70's and your expert has made a few hundred. Thats 1/10000 or a tenth as we call it here. Nobody does what you do. Only 1 in 10,000.

If our advice was wrong as you say, then your advice would be for people to earn as little money as possible and live in squalor and learn how to fix the leaks and do the sewerage themselves. Again, that is what the majority of the world's population does.

Mike

Correction ...

A D'Arcy Echols Legend Rifle now costs $6000, plus FET for a total of $6600. Plus scope. I know, because I have a .300 Win Mag copy in process. So I may as well throw in a plug for D'Arcy too.

I just returned from Namibia on my first African hunt. As I mentioned in my hunt report, on the way, South Africa Airlines lost my luggage, so I had to use the two PH's guns. They both worked well, a .308 and a 7mm. Still, the Mauser .308's safety wouldn't swing over for the low mounted scope.

When my luggage was delivered on the fourth day, I finally had my .270 Weatherby Magnum Ultra Lightweight in hand, but did not notice a cracked trigger plate, and screw and shim washer had dropped out during testing for zero. It then fell off, rendering the follower useless. It was now a single shot. Turns out that trigger plate was made of cast aluminum with a weak spot at the floorplate hinge. That is an example of less than satisfactory factory design and workmanship. D'arcy's is milled of new steel. That is one example of what Allen listed as 83 separate operations done to make a Legend Rifle. he also uses Kreiger barrels, and makes new parts such as a steel magazine capable of holding four rounds that will feed flawlessly.

So now I've experienced what Allen described as a catastrophic failure, albeit not on dangerous game. And I never want one again. Every rifle I have ever owned was compromised in some large or small way. I tired of it and decided to do something about it. After speaking with John Barseness, Allen Day and two other Echols' Legend owners, I ordered one myself.

Probably like you, Don, I think rifle's are tools and should function like one. That is why I ordered an Echols rifle. It is great for you that you are capable enough to maintain your guns in perfect functioning order and have never experienced a failure you couldn't remedy in the field. I am not as fortunate, and mechanically gifted as you.

By the way, as to money ... one of the other Echols Legend owners I spoke is a retired carpenter in Maine that earns $25K a year. It took him over 2 years to pay off his Echols Legend .300 Win Mag. He says it is the best rifle he has ever had and is only sorry he didn't do it years ago.

I also shoot at the Blue Trail range in Wallingford from time to time, Don. I have even taken Massad Ayoob's LFI-I handgun course there. Ayoob uses a perfectly functional stock Glock 22 in .40 S&W, as his service and competition sidearm, but that didn't stop me from getting a more expensive SIG 229 in .40. I just like its' appearance better. Then again, you probably couldn't justify my custom shotguns either.

When you said ...

quote:

---

I have been to Holland and Holland, Boss and Gibbs and seen their stuff and it's just bragging stuff, that's all.

---

... Then I knew what I was up against.

I hope I get to say hello to you in person there one day, Don. I will probably have my Legend rifle with me when we meet. Then you can see and shoot one for personal firsthand evaluation. It should delivered by late spring 2003.

I wanted one perfect, functioning rifle.

I chose an Echols Legend in .300 Win Mag as my one do-it-all centerfire rifle for the world.

If I decide to go for Buff, I will borrow a bigger one from a friend or use my PH's gun. If I decide to make it a habit and repeat that experience, I will order another Legend in .375 or .416.

Otherwise, my .300 Win Mag will suffice for everything else I am interested in.

[ 08-19-2002, 14:59: Message edited by: Wayne Nish ]

Just my 2 cents on the Echols rifles subject. I think the question being debated here is the price tag on his rifles. Keep in mind its a matter of supply and demand. If Echols can sell his rifles for $6000 more power to him. The demand is out there, people who want and can afford his work will keep him in business. The same goes for David Miller's rifles. For some of us average income Joes, we will stick to factory rifles or customizing them thru less known 'smiths. Or the do it yourself route. MtnHtr

Don, the fact that your gun club man hasn't heard of D'Arcy Echols doesn't mean "jack".

I'll assume that he's literate, but not particularly well-read. If so, refer him (you can look this stuff up yourself) to:

Petersen's "Rifle Shooter" magazine, June 1998, "The Rifles of D'Arcy Echols", by Gary Sitton.

"Rifle" #151, "Functional Art by Hunters" by David Miller

"Rifle" #174, "Paul Mauser's Marvelous Magazines" by Wayne Van Zwoll

"Rifle" #175, "One Shot from the Very End!" by Wayne Van Zwoll

"Rifle" #181, "Built Better In Black" by Wayne Van Zwoll

"Rifle" #201, "D'Arcy's Black Rifle" by John Barsness

As I said, in the real world, your gunclub man's ignorance doesn't mean anything. I think it's time for you to look up the materials I've outlined, and then maybe you'll have some idea as to who it is you've been stupidly damning with faint praise.

Don, it's time to put up or shut up. Throw a saddle on that pony and let's see ya ride! Your ignorance is starting to get a little old......

AD

Allen Day,

Calm down. All I did was point out that your suggestion was wrong for the particular thread and that the great majority of us don't need, want or have even heard of your vendor. Maybe you need a vacation?