Okay guys I need to know what you would use as a minimum caliber for elk, 30-06?, 7mm mag.? Now I need to know this because I have never hunted Elk, and am needing to know for a friend whom hopes to hunt Elk some time in the near future.

I live in N.W.Montana, some of the toughest terrain in North America to hunt elk. A 30-06 will fill all needs. I've seen more good kills with the old .30 bore than any other. I personally carry a .338 Win Mag as a rule, but this is more for griz than elk. 200 yards will be a long shot as a rule.

Thanks Rick, I appreciate your quick response. I thought the ol'30 would be enough gun, but just needed confirmation.

Contrary to what some might say, elk do not require silver bullets administered at the dawn sun. Shot placement is much more important. Having said that, elk can live in country where, if he can travel for 1/2 hour, it may take you a day to retrieve him piece at a time. More is better in the gun department. A quick kill will be better than him traveling wounded. The biggest you can shoot well, that's the one.

[ 10-06-2002, 16:55: Message edited by: 8MM OR MORE ]

The .30-06 with good, premium 180 gr. bullets (Nosler Partition, for example) is the most sensible "minimum" cartridge for elk that I can think of.

AD

I've killed around 20 elk with my 30-06 using Federal Premium 165 Gr bullets. No problems, never lost one.

The 7mm 's will also work fine.I have killed several elk using partitions and have no problems at all.

Well, to date, whatever rifle I happened to be carrying if I had the extra elk tag. As mentioned, they're really not that hard to kill, shot placement (as with any hunt) is the key. Having said that, when I go out specifically for elk, I generally carry a larger caliber. The reason for this is simple, it makes bigger holes. The statement that an elk can cover a lot of very unfriendly country quickly is very true, so I try to minimise that problem. I knew an older gent (gone to his reward, now) who hunted everything we have here in Alberta (and that's really a lot of species) with a 243. Moose, elk, bear, it didn't matter, the 243 was the gun he used. So, I guess I'm saying that if you can manage it, a bigger caliber is better, but where you hit them is more important then with what. My own personal minimum is the 300 Wby with 200 gr bullets, and usually I'll go with something bigger in diameter. FWIW. - Dan

Ok, I've been doing some thinking......if we normally shoot groundhogs(aka rockchucks) with a 55 grain bullet fired from a .22 centerfire, and the hog/chuck weighs about 15 lbs, then it is logical to me that we should use at a minumum a 2933 grain(.42 lb.) bullet weight when a humane kill on an 800 lb Elk is intended. I guess I am making a compromise and want to try out my .416 Rigby.

I use my 30-06 with either 165 or 180gr Nosler Partitions for elk. I wouldn't want to go much lighter than a 270 with 150gr Partitions as a rule.

My 300 savage is my brush gun for everything up to and including elk. I agree that a 7mm with a heavy bullet is also a very acceptable pill for Wapiti. Plenty have been taken with 270 or even a 25-06 but Id go with a 7mm as my choice of a minimum for a clean kill.

Elk are large tough skinned heavy boned critters. It is best to use the most powerfull cartridge you can deliver a fatal shot through the heart lung area every time at the range you intend shooting.

In my view the 300 Winchester Magnum is the perfect Elk medicine. The .308 diameter hunting bullet is nearly the perfect pill for any and all game animals. The 300 Win Mag has has all you need in power and accuracy potential at any range you shoot the majestic and Regal Elk. I prefer the 165 grain bullet at ranges to 400 yards. I blelieve you should limit your shots to 400 yards and less. In the pursuit of any big game animal closer is always better. The 300 mag with the 26" barrel will do the job time after time on any Elk.

Three or four responses mentioned the 165 gr. 30 caliber round. That's my choice as well. It's the perfect pill for elk in a .308 Win., 30.06 or 300 Win Mag.

Minimum .270 Win. I have taken Bulls with a .300, .340 Wby, and a .358 STA, that I now hunt with. Good shooting.

Thanks for all the input guys, but here yet is an additional question. I have shot Whitetail through and through the heart and lungs with .45-70-300gr HP and when fieldressed the internals are jelly, and they sometimes run upto 60yrds. before I have found them. How far will or can an Elk run after a perfectly placed shot?

Charlie,

First, I think that a .270 with 150 gr. Partitions is perfectly adequate for elk. 140 gr. Fail Safe's might even be better. I prefer my 7mm Rem Mag with 175 gr. Partitions at 3000 fps. For me, it has worked excellent for game here and in Africa, all the way up to a couple of eland. If you aren't hunting in open country, a .308, .300 Savage, or .303 British will all work excellent. I know, because I have used them.

Second, a well-hit elk can travel quite a distance. I have had some go as far as a quarter-mile, and upon opening them up, they had big holes in their heart and lungs. Elk are tough, so it's CRITICAL to properly place the shot.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Joel is correct, a well shot elk can still go a long way, and if the terrain you hunt is like ours, most of it is vertical. I really favour the use of premium bullets and try to take out a shoulder or two when putting the bullet through the boiler room. That way they can't go as far. Good luck. - Dan

A well hit elk can run for a long ways, farther than you will want to chase him. But they can also drop on the spot so put your shot where it belongs and hope it drops soon.

I just returned from Vermejo Park Ranch in northern New Mexico where I took a 6x7 340 class bull on Friday. Although almost any well placed centerfire round will kill a bull elk at close range in timber, it is possible you will want to make a 400 yard cross-canyon shot at a standing bull. In almost all cases, a premium 180 grain bullet from a 300 Win Mag will deliver 1600 to 2200 ft/lbs of energy to the target at that range.

The recommended minimum by 30 year veteran Game Manager Jim Baker is the 300 Win Mag with premium 180 grain bullets.

[ 10-07-2002, 09:01: Message edited by: Wayne Nish ]

Given my success lately I could just as well hunt elk with a piece of 3/4 inch pipe duct taped to a 2x4. I usually carry a 35 Whelen but this year I've been taking a 308 Norma. The son of a friend of mine was real successful with his 7mm-08. He decided it wasn't really enough so got a 300Win mag. It didn't seem to kill the elk any better but he got more exercise carrying it and felt safer when the grizzlies were around. Regards, Bill.

Interesting responses. You see, elk, like any game can be "killed" with any well placed shot. The question is how fast do you want to put one down on the ground?

Many marvelous stories of the 6mm kills or the 1/4 bore kills. Yes they work, they have no recoil and shooters place bullets with the precision of a surgeon. Still one must be willing to travel and track great distances for a 600 plus lbs bull when these chamberings are used for lung shots, unless you spine shoot them (very risky).

So, what to do? Well it really depends on the terrain and type of hunting you will undertake. The fast .28s .30s and .33s are better choices. The 7mm magnums are great for open work watching feeder trails in the morning hours or evening hours. Chances are your encounter here will be a 200 plus yard, if not possibly 300 plus yard shot. A quality 160 grain bullet will get the job done.

The same holds true with the .30s, except with the 308 Winchester, a 165 grain should not be used outside of 280 yards or so. The 06 with a 180 grain at 2850 fps is plenty adequate to 300 yards. The fast .30s are great (Win Mag, Wby Mag, Ultra, etc.) with 180 grainers and can get you 400 yards if you are a truely good marksman, which many out there are not. Many talk about making long range shots, but I doubt many realize what 450 yards really looks like with 20 mph wind looking on the hypotenuse line, but actually needing to figure the horizontal (x distance). I am not being dramatic here, these are real situations I have encountered with elk and mule deer.

I have 11 kills on elk and 7 of those are with the 338 Win Mag. Any fast .33 is just that much more of a good thing. Here are some of the things that take place in the field where the .33s take more risk out of the shot. Two years ago hunting south of Silt, CO, I was faced with a quick decision. Watching a large vertical drainage clearing (elev 8800 ft) with 30 minutes of shooting time left, I perched up on an outcrop of bolders above, leaving me a 225 yard shot to a crossing area that I scouted the night before, where I observed several elk cross. Sure enough 5 cows and a couple spikes made a move crossing nearly the same spot. It always is the case as the cows (sentinals) are the risk takers into the openings. Two bulls trailing and very apprehensive started to show their heads and shoulder areas to make the cross, but would not commit readily. The last of the two was the shooter (nice 5x5). Now, do I wait for him to move out and try a lung shot, then chance letting him run with the heard with light running out till he bleeds out and collapses in some god-forsaken place, or do I nail him with a shoulder through shoulder shot, putting him down right there in his tracks.

This is where the 338 Win Mag with 250 grain bullet makes all the difference. I shot him on the right side shoulder with a 250 grain Hawk bonded core spitzer. The 338 Win Mag went through both shoulders and exited. The elk never new what hit him.

The point I'm making is you have limitations on taking elk size game. And those are based on the shots presented (angles) or time of day they are presented. Seldom do things go textbook out there in the field. If I had a .27, .28 or standard .30, I would not have taken the shoulder shot. However, I knew the .33 Mag, with 250 grain bullet would offer plenty of penetration and break both shoulders.

My favorite elk cartridge in close quarters is the 444 Marlin. A solid 200 yard performer, I have hit 4 elk with it and last years big bodied 4x4 went down like nothing I've ever seen, broadside 125 yards with a CorBon 280. The elk buckled like it was sawed off at the legs. The 444 Marlin is a brute of a cartridge and the CorBon's one of the best bullets for integrity in the industry.

Point is, its a wide open tent for rifles used to hunt elk, but a fast .30 or .33, if one can handle the recoil is a great choice to counter all the elements one could expect. If I hunted the Pacific Rosevelt Elk, the 444 Marlin would be my only choice.

By the way, when I took the 4x4 last year with the 444 Marlin, my buddy took a 5x5 at 200 yards with a 340 Weatherby. It was a Texas heart shot, the only thing presented, as the bull was moving away in heavy timber and offered nothing else. Again, not many would try a shot like that, but a 340 Wby is quite a cartridge. Pulled the 250 grain Partition out of the bull's brisket. Thats about 6 feet of penetration from south end to north end. In that situation you have to decide on what your gunned for, as for the Wby, plenty of gun, 30-06, 300 Win, probably not.

Out-Of-State Elk Tags are not cheap, so you better be prepared to make a decision when it presents itself. Don't get to fooled into watching typical elk hunting footage and think some outfitter is going to call you in a 350 class bull and turn him sideways for a perfect broadside in the boiler room. It seldom works that way.

Take Care,
rossi

[ 10-09-2002, 02:33: Message edited by: rossi ]

Rossi, that is excellent advice.

However, whereas the .338 Win Mag is clearly superior to most any lesser sized cartridge, I'm not so sure I would consider the .30-06 the equal of the .300 Win Mag at long distance.

Can someone correct me here? Reloading perhaps?

[ 10-07-2002, 06:33: Message edited by: Wayne Nish ]

Good advice as usual. My own personnal min. is the .280 w/ 160gr NP @ 2850fps & that would be under 300yds for sure. My primary rifle is a .338-06 w/ 210grNP, but even that round is still a 300yd gun. If I thought I would have to take a longer shot then a .30mag w/ good 180gr bullets or a .338mag would be a better choice (I'm working on a .338x74 #1 for next year).
As Rossi said, nonres tags are expensive & you may have to take a less than perfect shot, so I would want to increase my odds w/ bigger/faster bullets. Good luck on your hunt!

Unless you're hunting in country where there is a heavy presence of big beasts (i.e. grizz), the .30-06 or .300 win mag are plenty big enough, and are easy to find ammo for.

Waksupi, you'll find what I am about to say to be hilarious, but a guy at work tried to tell me and another guy at work that the .338 is too small for grizzlies. I have a really hard time believing that a .338 win mag loaded with premium ammo in the 250-grain range is not enough to easily take an AK grizzly.

I'd recommend your friend use the largest caliber that he can shoot WELL. Bullet placement is most important! If he can handle them the 300 win, 338 win, and 358 sta are great elk rifles.

As far as how far the elk can travel after the shot, this is a direct relationship between the size of the elk, the physical condition of the elk hunter, and the distance to the nearest hernia gulch!

As far as buying a rifle for elk, I think every one is seeking that balance between the ability to shoot as easy as a 223, with the impact from the Hammer of Thor.

In my opinion, asking for the "minimum" caliber is not necessarily the best approach. I'd rather ask for the most effective rifle, while remaining "shootable".

My choice is the 35 Whelen, or something in that class. It's easy to shoot, and has enough clout to convince any elk to surrender. I just don't shoot the belted magnums well, and the Whelen gives me the added bullet weight as "cheap insurance". JMO, Dutch.

I like the 30-06 with the heavier bullets in case of an angling shot...I like the 180 Nosler and 200 gr. Nosler...

I prefer the 338 for elk in Idaho.

Until this year my elk rifle-- infact my only big game rifle-- has been a HEAVY barreled .25-06. (maybe this belongs on that other thread?) Anyway, this rifle has killed 3 elk and wounded zero. Two cows and a smallish barely legal bull. All were text book broadside/slight quartering lung shots at 150, 275, and 220 respectively. All were shot with a 100gr Partition and each animal expired within 50-85 yards. Now I've killed most my elk with an arrow, and I just can't bring myself to believe they are all that tough. I'm yet to see it.

Even so here a some beliefs I do have based on observations I've made:

-Most kills much over 350yds involve multiple shots, one of which will likely be in the hoof, knee, guts, or hind quarters.
-Most hunters who expect to take a 300-400 yard shot have never practiced at that range, nor do they have any means/sence to accurately calculate the range.
-Most (elk) hunters are severely over gunned.
-Most elk shot at severe angles, through brush, under inclimate conditions are never recovered.
-Most (elk) hunters are clueless or only vaguely familiar with the topography and terrain. (BTW that's part of the game...)
-Most unrecovered elk were supposedly hit well, with "enough gun", by a good shot. Supposedly.

I don't mean to piss in anyone Wheaties here, just suggest that a small caliber-light bullet is sufficient, and an ultramagnumstopper is false insurance. It's a big, centerfire twinkie if you will. You feel good about having it, but there is no substance to it, really. Not in the end. Skill, patience, knowledge, familiarity, experience, and practice are what kill reliably and quickly.

FWIW

[ 10-09-2002, 06:53: Message edited by: waldog ]

Wigeonmaster - Gee, now I'm scared! That I might meet up with one of those guys!

The caliber you use is about 5% of the total problem when elk hunting. First and foremost worry about finding elk. If people actually spent half as much time getting in shape and actually hunting as they do jerking off over what caliber to use. There would be alot more elk on the ground and your western elk areas would have success rates above the normal 25% or 35% harvest percentages.

You hear all about wanting enough gun when that magical moment comes,yet you never hear about being so out of shape from sitting on your nuts all year,that you can't even keep that .340wby on target after walking 20 yards from the truck.

As for the best caliber for elk. Who knows? I've seen to many elk shot out to 300 yards with the .270win,that dropped in their tracks to believe it's not adequate. I've also seen elk killed with the .338win mag.that would have made you believe they'd been hit with a .243. Shot placement and well constructed bullets are what matters.

Waldog, that's all well and good. One of the guys on the farm has killed his last three elk with a 22/250 (2) and a 25/06 (1). So, it can be done? I know a guy that shot an elk with a ranch rifle..... So?

Yet, I am in shape, and I DO practice, both dry firing and live firing. I DO scout, and I DO know the terrain, and I HAVE my bull staked out.

Still, I hunt with my Whelen and 250 gr bullets instead of my 270 and 150 grainers this year. In the end, 250 is better than 150. It is not false insurance. My dad used to call that sort of thing "cheap insurance".

If it drops the elk three feet sooner, it is worth it. If it penetrates 6 inches farther, it is worth it. If it makes a .025" bigger hole, it is worth it. If it makes an exit hole with ten more splatters of blood to track, it is worth it. If it bleeds the bull out 5 seconds faster, it is worth it.

In the hell holes I hunt, any one of those can make the difference between a nice pack off the end of the ridge, and a three day struggle from the bottom of the canyon.

Cheap insurance, indeed.

JMO, Dutch.

The whelen makes alot of sense considering that the majority of elk are shot at ranges under 200 yards. Most of your long shots occur as the result of elk being spooked and on the run,when fired at. The elk that have taken the most killing in my experience have always been those that were on the run or in high gear,as a result of being pushed. Elk by design have alot of endurance and strength,any animal that can cover the miles that an elk can is bound to be tough,but they aren't bullet proof.

With todays bullet selection,the caliber has become less important,within reason. When you load a .270,06,300 or .338 with a bullet like the fail safe,you aren't going to recover many bullets,regardless of angle on an elk out to 300yards. With premium bullets,you're going to have a hard time truely finding a differance in killing power, in the 30caliber through .35 caliber. range when these bullets are propelled at descent velocity.

On elk you have to break bone,in order to get drop in their tracks type performance. Sure you'll have a few heart and lung shots that drop on the spot,but the majority of your drop in the spot shots require bone to be broken. You could shoot an animal in the head to get this performance,but thats risky and undesirable. The neck shot is a good one,but has alot of room for failure. This leaves you with a high shoulder shot. Starting at the junction of the shoulder where it meets the neck,you basically have a 12 inch square(on elk),that composes the spine,high shoulder and the base of the neck. Within this area you also have a system of nerves,that when disrupted will drop an animal in its tracks. If you shoot a little far back,you end up with lungs,too high the spine. With this shot placement,I've yet to see an elk take more then two steps,before going down. I've seen elk hit with a .243 using barnes x in the high shoulder,that dropped immediately,but I don't recommend using the .243. It's not uncommon to take out both the spine and high shoulder with one shot. If you're worried about chasing elk,then stay away from lung shots,an elk can easily absorb enough oxygen to carry it hundreds of yards with no lungs left.

Waldog, your post is very true, but how many rifle hunters hunt like bowhunters? There are many more hunters in the woods during rifle season & the sooner the elk goes down the better. I also don't think a magnum is mandatory, it depends on your hunting style, how much time you have to hunt & how much you have spent on your trip & tags.
For a local hunter who can get out every evening & weekend to hunt for $20, then any caliber firing a decent bullet will probably work. For the nonres hunter who has only a week or so & travels thousands of miles & spends over a thousand bucks to hunt, I think it's the biggest caliber rifle you can shoot well with appropriate bullets. You may only get one shot the entire trip, & it needs to work. Just my nickles worth.

Fred338,

ROTFLMAO.... at myself. You're right dammit, I'm thinking like a bowhunter even with rifle in hand. I wasn't even thinking that direction, maybe that's what struck me? Anyway, I appreciated RMK's post too. Dutch, I firmly believe when season roll around, that staked out bull you have, doesn't stand a chance. But I don't think of a 35 whelen as a hypermagnumbiggamebuster anyway. It's way to efficient, shootable, lethal, and lacks the necessarry marketing luster (and recoil) necessarry to convince anyone their elk is gonna die quicker. Well, the least you could do-- in the name of ethics-- is shoot 250gr FailSafes. You know, just to be on the safe side.

I live in western Colorado and hunt elk, mule deer, and pronghorn each year. I have harvested all but one elk with M700 chambered in 280 Remington. The only exception was killed with a 30-06/Barnes X bullet. Mule deer have all fallen to my pet 280 and pronghorn all to a M700 "Classic" in 6.5x55. My favorite bullet for deer and pronghorn is Nosler Ballistic Tip, elk is Nosler Partition. The only kill with Barnes X was very impressive.

300 mag is my personal favorite with 180 - 200 grain bullet. My son's 30-06 is a close 2nd...it's a featherweight and nice to carry.

My dad Jack Sr. and brother Jack Jr. both prefer .338 with 225 - 250 bullet. Sr. says it's the best elk medicine there is...............
Our own experience with 7mm's on elk has been very negative. 270 with 150's should be min.
We are getting the fever......It's snowing here as I type...........good hunting to you and if I can give you one piece of advice for a new elk hunter is to shoot the first legal bull or cow you see and keep shooting until it's not moving anymore because I've seen ALOT of "dead" elk get up and run off. Good luck!

I think the proper elk cartridge depends on several different situations.

Are you truly a shooter who can handle a .33 mag or are you recoil sensitive and a 7mm would serve you better?

Can you TRULY place your shot from a field position?? If not maybe a ctg yoour more accurate with is the answer. PLACEMENT is THE key for a quick kill.

Are you on an out of State hunt of maybe short duration hunt where you may only have minimum opportunity to take an animal? If so, you may need to take a less than perfect shot,hence a bigger ctg is better.

Are you in heavy timber with 80 yd shots your max range? Or do you hunt praire elk like I do which is like hunting really big antelope.

I hunt my elk ten minutes from my house, with a five week season. I carry a .280 Rem with 150's , my .300 H&H with 180's or my .338-06 with 225's. all partitions. I enjoy being able to pass on bad angles or excessive ranges and come back the next day and pursue the same bull again , looking for a better shot. This is NOT the typical elk hunting situation.


I like the .30's as a minimum, anything shooting a decent 180 gr bullet at 2850+ is adequate.

FN in MT

I have limited elk hunting experience, but the two that I have taken were dropped with one shot from a 338 WM using a 200 gr NBT and one shot from a 375 H&H using a 300 gr Sierra. On my next elk hunt I will take my 375 loaded with 260 NBTs.

Even though many elk have been taken with much smaller rifles, I prefer to use the 338 - 375 caliber rifles, just because it makes me happy.

I seem to recall a few years ago that Field and Stream or Outdoor life ran an article concerning the most popular elk cartridges in the 1940'-1950's, and then ran the popular cartridges of today. I personally have no experience shooting many elk, so I won't try to pass off as an expert, I hate BS'ers. But it only stands to reason that according to these response, elk were apparently an invincible animal until the advent of at least the .30-06. Some of you make it sound as if the hammer of Thor is required to kill an elk, and I am sure it is not. The issue of dropping an elk on the spot is a completely different matter. I know that I can personally consistently hit SD whitetails at 400+yds with my .30-06, but that is only because I spend a whole lot of time practicing, and the best practice I have found is taking of with my marlin bolt-action tube-fed .22 with short hollow point and spending an afternoon in a section full of flickertails. It forces you to pick out small details, shoot steady, and the're generally so low to the ground that you can't shoot prone. I have shot flickers at 100+yds. with the short, and it's great practice for shooting deer at these ranges. I won't take an offhand shot at deer at over 200 yds., but that is out of respect for the animal and my limitations. Give me a rest and I can more than double that range. I'm not trying to offend any elk hunters out there, but I seriously think that the elk hunting crowd is a big source of magnumitis. Oh-yeah, that article, the most popular in the bad old days was the .30-06, closely followed by a lever action .30-30, and the .25-35 even made the list!
Willie

Well Charlie I shoot either my 300 Win Mag or 7MM Mag. I shoot 180 grain Nosler Partitions in the 300 WM and 160 grain Nosler Partitions in the 7mm rem mag. Either rifle does a great job on Elk.