You guys talk grains of powder and manufacturers and such and I just don't get it.

I have Core Loks and Federals.

Every gun I use never seems to pay much attention to either.

I do have to watch out for the 165 v 180 grain on my 338 though. She's mean and cranky.

But every other gun I own doesn't seem to care that much.

100 yds and it's bang flop.

I can see it in long range but most on here use 200 yds or less.

For deer at moderate ranges using most standard (non magnum) cartridges, bullet choice probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I used ordinary factory ammo (mostly Remington core lokt and Winchester power point) for years and was perfectly happy with the results.

However, there is a certain satisfaction to be derived (for me at least) in tinkering with guns and loads and getting the best accuracy and selecting a bullet that will perform just like I want it to.

Mostly, I think endlessly disecting and discussing guns and ammunition is an entertaining way to pass the time.

The problem you are having is that you are hitting them in the right place. Start placing your bullets in non-vital areas and then imagine how much better your life would be with expensive bullets.

Core Locts and Power Points are well designed for deer, for the most part. Their performance on much bigger game is not always as good. I'm done with cup and core bullets on anything bigger than deer fwiw.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The problem you are having is that you are hitting them in the right place. Start placing your bullets in non-vital areas and then imagine how much better your life would be with expensive bullets.

Ahh, Shoemaker, you crack me up. That was funny.

Just got back from a S TX hunt where there were three of us hunting. I'm shooting a 300 wsm and the other two are armed with cannons - 7mm mags!

The only deer that went bang/flop was mine. They had to do blood trail searches.
7mm mag? Oh, and they had 4x16 scopes on these.

Ahhh, cracks me up.

I always thought my 243 was a bit of overkill for deer. I moved up to a 270 due to peer pressure and the occasional mountain grizzly encounter in Montana.

I currently have 26 centerfire riles and load for all but one of them. I truly enjoy creating my own cartridges and then testing them. Also, 2 of them are wildcats that require making my own. It is also very gratifying when they shoot well. Kinda like sharpening your own knives or training your own dog for competition.

I tried a lot of different bullets and for some of my rifles, I find the common old core lokt works as good as anything and better than a lot. They're kinda like dating a ugly, fat gal. She does what you want and gets the job done but you don't brag about her. The only elk I've ever killed with a non-magnum was a cow that I shot with a .280 and a 150gr core lokt bullet. (when I left for WY, I hadn't intended to go elk hunting and went outfitted for deer)

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I tried a lot of different bullets and for some of my rifles, I find the common old core lokt works as good as anything and better than a lot. They're kinda like dating a ugly, fat gal. She does what you want and gets the job done but you don't brag about her. The only elk I've ever killed with a non-magnum was a cow that I shot with a .280 and a 150gr core lokt bullet. (when I left for WY, I hadn't intended to go elk hunting and went outfitted for deer)

Dang if that isn't the truth!
Old fat women getting the job done.
Love it. LOL

I have never had a Corelokt fail me on elk, but I use the RN corelokts back then and they were the best we had and are just as good today. Power Points are a bit soft but fine on deer and Silvertips just depended on which one, they changed them everytime they got good, they they were too soft most of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The problem you are having is that you are hitting them in the right place. Start placing your bullets in non-vital areas and then imagine how much better your life would be with expensive bullets.

Makes sense to me, good answer Phil.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have never had a Corelokt fail me on elk, but I use the RN corelokts back then and they were the best we had and are just as good today. Power Points are a bit soft but fine on deer and Silvertips just depended on which one, they changed them everytime they got good, they they were too soft most of the time.

Ray,

I gotta agree with you. I handload almost exclusively, but I have used CoreLokts and have never been seen them perform badly - perfect mushroom just like the ads.

quote:

Originally posted by lde:


Just got back from a S TX hunt where there were three of us hunting. I'm shooting a 300 wsm and the other two are armed with cannons - 7mm mags!

The only deer that went bang/flop was mine. They had to do blood trail searches.

Interesting, I thought the 300 WSM was more powerful than the 7 Rem Mag.

Ide, which do you like better, Vanilla Ice cream or Chocolate / Sweet tea or Un-Sweet tea / regular coffee or decaf?

How poor an excuse for life would it be if we ALL only had one style bullet/one caliber of rifle/one brand of scope to use.

How boring would life or this site or any other be if ALL of us agreed on everything all the time.

You ever been on one of those forums where every person on the site agrees on every topic. They are plenty damn boring. They are like a mutual admiration society where never is heard a discouraging word or an independent thought.

I don't get it when a person that is just going to be hunting white tails from a stand over looking a feeder at a measured 100 yards just simply has to have the latest high end scope.

Having a choice is what makes things fun. Everyone seems to want to bang the gong for Remington Core-Locts or Barnes TSX and forget that several million buffalo were killed with pure lead bullets and flint tipped arrows.

It is just a case of humans wanting to find the next big thing and then touting its greatness. The only real advantage given is a boost to the users confidence.

CHC, you are absolutely correct. There is certainly more than one road to Jeruselem. The problem with some folks is the only way they have of bragging up their speckled pup is to bad mouth the other man's dog.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The problem you are having is that you are hitting them in the right place. Start placing your bullets in non-vital areas and then imagine how much better your life would be with expensive bullets.

Damn straight!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

I don't get it when a person that is just going to be hunting white tails from a stand over looking a feeder at a measured 100 yards just simply has to have the latest high end scope.

LMAO. I've spent too much money buying rifles and bullets for every niche of hunting. Now that I bought a place my longest shot is about 100 yards. Anything will work and now it's just looking in the safe and figuring out which one I want to take.

Yes, tis funny how shot placement relegates most of these discussions to secondary importance.

The gist of this thread seems to follow an old saying: "perfect is the enemy of good".

And there's alot of truth to that. "Perfect" types are never happy, are continually chasing their tails, are the real reason history repeats itself, and can't see the forest for the trees. These are the guys who change for the sake of change, maybe making the mistake of selecting a bullet that shoots 1/8 MOA better instead of the properly constructed head. These are guys who will change something that works b/c the grass must be greener somewhere.

But there's another old saying: "good is the enemy of excellent".

Alot of truth there, too. "Good" types shoot a bunch of animals with one load. "Always worked for me"..."never had a problem"..."what's the big deal"... These are the guys that use whatever someone once advised (maybe 40 years ago) and never ask: could I do better? They're not likely to think analytically about their results, don't bother dissecting bullet tracks. So they won't see that some of their kills were grounded in nothing but dumb luck. Then, the inevitable bad result happens. What to do? Easy. Keep doing what you've been doing expecting that next time will be different (BTW, this is one definition of insanity).

Let's face it, there would be no point to these forums if "good" was the grail. And it's easy to see the flaw in "perfect". No, we should try for "excellent". (In truth, about all of us are doing just that)

Sam

Samuel,

I like what you're saying.
BUT, I've been in camps where it's done the way their grandpappies have done it.

At the end of the day, I've yet to come up with better.

quote:

Now that I bought a place my longest shot is about 100 yards. Anything will work

Isn't is amazing how that will change you perspective?

If you are shooting pet whitetails drinking out of the bird bath, well, the Remington Greenbox is probably all you need.

If you just spent 12k for a Cape Buffalo hunt in Africa, you might want something a little better.

I can't fault anyone who uses the super premium bullets, They are good insurance for the extra 50 cents you spend on them, especially on a high dollar hunt. I mostly use Corelokts, Sierras, Speers or whatever on deer size game because it makes no differnce.

When you get into the bigger animals its a good time to use a Nosler partition or its ilk, and they don't cost much more. I consider the RN corelokt a premium bullet btw its proved itself too many times on elk size animals..I observed a Philip Price a RSA PH stick a 100 gr. 243 into a 2500 lb. wounded Elands rear end and the bullet was found expanded under the skin of the shoulder after busting that huge piece of bone..That is impressive for any bullet. That was the same penetration I got with the 260 gr. Nolsers in my .375..

Ray nailed it. The insurance ain't expensive, but sometimes that hunt sure is!

I've found, through many different forums, the majority of guys who don't "get" the premium ammo, or magnums, or high tech gear or whatever, tend to be white tail hunters who may not even know what hunting terrain that is longer then 100 yards even looks like. Nothing wrong with that, its what they do. But, often times, those same guys may not have hunted in more "wild" places, or paid 10k to hunt an elk or moose or what have you.

Where I hunt elk, its a staging area between summer grounds and wintering grounds, and we are trying to catch them on their way to the winter lands. There are never "herds". Biggest I ever saw was about 25 animals and that was once, and it wowed me. Usually, its bands of 2-7 elk. The last few years, there has been a LOT of pressure too, so, you might see elk once, or twice. That is all. There is not a lot of wiggle room to wait for the perfect shot, or a slightly better animal, or many, if any, 2nd chances. You see em, you got seconds to make a choice and put em down. I use good bullets and powerful cartridges banking on the fact that I'm likely not going to have a perfect 100 yard broadside shot. Its brown and legal, its going down. If I have to put it in the shoulder to try and drop it right there, so be it. If I do get the perfect 100 yard broadside shot (coincidentally happened the first season I hunted with my new to me 300 Wby) I'll take it. But, if that had been a quatering shot (won't take the south end of a northbound elk shot unless its wounded) I would have been just as confident in the FailSafe to get the job done.

Milehighshooter, Except for the number of animals, what you discribed is typical eastern hunting. Additionally, if your animal runs any distance and you hang around waiting for him to "bleed out", you may get to watch him leave in the back of someone else's truck.
And so it is funny to hear the folks that have limitless opportunities and can always come back tomorrow, brag about using the lesser cartridges.
As someone pointed out, if I'm hunting on the back 40, I'll use my Core Lokts but if I've laid out some heavy cash, there'll be a premium in the chamber, even though I've never had a Core Lokt fail to fetch what I sent it after.
The fact re4mains, if you think using xyz bullets makes you a more competent, confident hunter, it probably does.

Beeman

It's pretty much time to raise the

The ammo companies have come a long way from the days when I started hunting..I remember when bullet failure was pretty common..We got most of our game, but I can remember long hard tracking jobs and hours in the saddle looking for wounded animals, some got away, most did not..

Sierra had a representitive that had to be the dumbest SOB in the history of hunting, when he made that infamously lame statement "At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail" With the bullet failures that I dealt with back then, the scene ended when a follow up bullet killed the animal. I hope he reads this...

Like I said for deer if you use a heavy bullet for caliber with Sierras or some other cup and core they seldom fail but many of them have core seperations, in fact most do..

I went on Safari in 1996 and used a well known brand of bullet by a then new bullet maker and all of his "thickest" jacketed bullets had core seperations, I asked him why he didn't solder the lead to the jacket as was just getting popular, and he got insulted I guess. His stand was the jacket thickness was all that was needed, and he actually thought he had stumbled on to something new..Good Lord bullet makers started out using that therory to make bullets..

If you use a bullet that has core seperation on deer then its probably a bad elk bullet IMO..

Even a self guided elk hunt in your own state is an expensive venture and you could buy a whole cow packaged and frozen for what one elk costs you in many cases..An extra 50 cents for a premium bullet seems to be a pretty good investment anyway you cut it..It beats the hell out of arrogantly telling folks that all the cheapo bullets are just as good as premiums and super premiums, that is simply not correct....

I may use cup and core bullets under some circumstances and like I said I don't really consider the RN Corelokt or the Hornady interlock a cup and core bullet, its more like a premium and the expensive bullets are super premiums..I use both and I choose with care based on the hunt I intend to go on. MOstly I use super premium bullets, but in my Sav. 99F .308 I use mostly 150 and 180 Corelokts on deer. For elk I use Nosler partitions. Corelokts and WW in my 30-30s and 25-35s..

The rest of my bolt actions rifles mostly get fed super primiums..DGRs all get super premiums.



And that's the rest of the story..

An Ergasplittenloudenboomer makes not a good shot, niether does a high dollar slug.. Using good judgment as to what particular bullet is used for any given game is always important, but shot placement determines the outcome more often than not..

Great post Ray. On the money.

Again, Ray nails it! Especially about the cost of just 1 elk. I think resident hunters look at it simply as their 50$ or whatever...but, the week or two off from work, any scouting time, the gas up there, gas used, gas for scouting, time spent at the range, cost of range trips, cost of ammo, food for 1-2 weeks, any new gear, processing if you don't do it yourself....it adds up. And I rent a truck, so I get to throw another 400$ on top of that price!