I have a question about the best way to manage a small property me and a buddy hunt.
the area is a total of about 100 acres. its borders by a timber companies 300 or so acres
on the N border there are 2 pastures and private homes that no one hunts.
i have seen herds of does with fawn and kill a good buck (for here) every year.
there is probably a 15 to one ratio of bucks to does and we have been working on it by killing does.
the question is this. why havenet i seen a spike in 3 years? or a forkhorn or a small basket 6 point.
I see flocks of does and then 3.5+ year old bucks.
the last time i remember seeing a small racked 6 was a devoured skeleton that was either shot on an adjacent property or hit by a car and made it onto ours.
2nd question is.
since the timber company halted hunting a couple of years ago are deer hiding over there?
could 2 people be putting so much pressure on a herd that they would go to the adjacent property?
we have green pastures, fresh water, pleanty of soft mast and enough briar thickets to bed down an army or rabbits. it has always been a great property but i dont know were the small bucks have gone.
the last 3 bucks i took of the property had broken tines and were all scared up from fighting. the one i took yeasterday AM had fresh cuts on both sides of his neck and shoulders and one on his jaw under his eye.
i know he was fighting someone.

I hunt about the same size property for WT here on the river. Surrounded by open beat fields. I have hunted it three years, (still trying for the big one) I am yet to see a WT fork horn. I see muley fork horns. I see button bucks, this years fawns, then they seem to develope into 3x3 or 4x4 small racks. It seems they just go from button to branched antler. I have seen this before and think it is quite common. About a dozen does, with either twins or singles. It gets hunted hard in the early season, and when my season opens in Nov. it is devoid of hunters except for me and yet the bucks are almost nocturnal. The bucks are here, but only show face when it is to dark to shoot. I would love to try a trail camera just to see what comes out after dark. A local contractor who spends most of the spring hunting sheds, found a 180 set this last spring. And how this guy can hide on 40 to 100 acres of trees and brush is amazing. I hunt from a 100' high bluff over looking the entire property and have spent full days glassing the trees and brush, sun up to sun down and never seen this buck.

i have never found a single shed on the property. this leads me to think that the deer use the property ofr movement only
EXEPT...
i have kicked up deer in the middle of the day from beds and i have watched deer out making licking branches and scrapes at 1100 in the morning.
the racks from the last three years, with exeption of size are all fairly similar as if coming from the same gene pool.
i am just stunned that they are fighting to the point of breaking of hardened antlers with so many does around and so few (i guess) bucks.
maybe i have some realy nocturnal monsters on the property that i just dont see and the deer i am shooting are thier punching bags.
we started hunting this property 9 years ago and decided that we wouldnt kill and big 8's or better. we killed every small basket buck we saw and took a decent number of does.
oh well, back out tonite for some more does and yearlings.
since i took a buck yeaterday AM i now have to take 5 does/ yearlings. i took 2 last night so i have to kill 3 more before i can shoot another buck or i go in the hole and have to kill 10 does.

88 acres is kinda small, but i guess you could...

If you want to draw them there, you have to suppliment whatever they would desire in the habitat

Put of 2 feeders, not corn, as it sounds like they already have plenty to eat....

a couple salt blocks wouldn't be a bad idea, but that's a low return game...

want horns? mineral blocks under a protein feeder....

just like we do it in texas...

Don't get offended because this is coming from Texas, but here is my take on your situation.

For 13 years I hunted a 180 acre place, that was basically surrounded by 5000 acres that was not hunted.

I was able to have feeders on the place, but I never put up any game cams.

With your place being around 100 acres, you are probably pretty close on some of the statements you made about what is happening on your place.

There will be a few deer hang out on your place, but probably most of them are just passing thru.

As for why you may not be seeing any small racked bucks/spikes, that may be related to the practice you all have had of not shooting any big bucks and only taking the smaller stuff.

Even though you have a problem with the high fence issue, you are practicing many of the same strategies that are used on those places.

As a result, you are benefitting from it.

The only real suggestion I can give, is, if legal where you hunt, set up 2 or 3 game cams and see what is going on in various locations on your place. JMO.

another isssue is how often do you go there outside of the season? They will eave a small property to avoid pressure just from humans. Also, how young a forest is yours compared to the timberlands adjacent?

i think that maybe there is a big nocturnal bruiser living on the propery.
there are pleanty of does and the bucks we shoot have been fighting hevily. also we get really positve results from calling and rattling even though our ratio is so skewed.
maybe a big boy is living there and running off all the smaller bucks who cant even fight.

quote:

probably a 15 to one ratio of bucks to does and we have been working on it by killing does.

assume you meant 15 to one does-to-bucks???

can't believe you even MENTIONED the "M" word (manage). Do you mean to say you might consider altering the natural order of things some way??? ...altering the natural population?...messing with the gene pool?...using calls?? Good heavens, next you will tell us you have set up a feeder and a box blind??

They're there, you're just not seeing them. Get a game cam- my rec. is one that you can swap out memory cards. You'd be amazed to see what comes out at 1230 am (under a feeder ). The big bruiser got big by being nocturnal. Only luck will get you a shot at him- ie chasing a hot doe. Consider yourself lucky not to see basket horned, spikes or goofy looking bastards.

Are you aging them correctly? The easiest way to age without taking a long look ie shortcut/snapshot method: use gravity as a clue- everything flows from the head to the ground.

1 1/2: thin nose looks like a doe
2 1/2: head gets fuller flows into neck
3 1/2: neck gets fuller flows into chest
4 1/2: neck/chest are one, back sways down
5 1/2: body flows down to the ground , legs look too short

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

probably a 15 to one ratio of bucks to does and we have been working on it by killing does.

assume you meant 15 to one does-to-bucks???

can't believe you even MENTIONED the "M" word (manage). Do you mean to say you might consider altering the natural order of things some way??? ...altering the natural population?...messing with the gene pool?...using calls?? Good heavens, next you will tell us you have set up a feeder and a box blind??

15;1 is not the natural way of things. its how fucked up things get when idiots value antlers, ANY antlers over meat. when the timber company leased out its property it sounded like beruit over there. i spoke with some guys on the fence who during turkey season once who said they didnt care anything about shooting does.

nature selects that more bucks are born than does and that does will sucumb to predadation before bucks the natural order , if things were to be left alone for 200 years, would be that only the strongest bucks were allowed to breed and the lesser bucks genes would eventually receede into nothingness.

im not going to use feeders because its illigal and i dont personally belive in it. i might go so far as to clear out some 1/4 acre plots. as far as box blinds go i dont have a problem with people using them so they can take thier kids or thier wife but, i dont think they arevery important. if your hunting that way you can sit on a bucket if you want. cut some limbs and put them around you, whatever.

quote:

ts how fucked up things get when idiots value antlers

Isn't this post mainly about antlers and their size be it big or small? If you placed no value on them, why give a damn what bucks you are seeing? Unbelievable.

Wrong about the mortality rate of bucks to doe. The rut combined with winter kill 5 times as many bucks as doe and it has always been that way.

I hate to point it out also but +1 on Joe's post. Your entire arguement for management went right out the window. Now you see why we have high fences.

Perry

KS
One of the reasons you don't see young bucks is that they disperse from their home range at 1/1/2 years, displaced by the dominant bucks in the area. I would think that you would be getting some yearling bucks and 2 1/2s from adjacent properties, but if you are seeing the numbers of 3.5 and older bucks, it would stand to reason that they are keeping the youngsters moving. As to does, well, I personally don't think we can kill enough of them; I managed one military area for 13 years, 9000 acres, not high-fenced, and we took 350-400 does and 100 antlered bucks off of it every year I was there. The ratio got better, but the deer got healthier, had an earlier rut as the years passed, had earlier fawning, more fawns per doe, and better fawn survival. As to antlers, we took over 700 3.5 and older bucks in 10 years. This in tidewater VA on sand and greenbriars (and 600 acres of perenial food plots and 6000 acres of mature hardwood forest). Because of security we had only about 100 hunters, had to hunt from elevated stands, but with DMAP and bonus tags our guys could shoot 4 doe per day for a season that lasted from Oct to mid Jan. Keep shooting the does, enjoy the older males, and don't worry about the yearlings. Obviously they're making it somewhere around you.
Walt

KSTEPHENS,

I know we have had many disagreements, but I hope that won't keep you from reading this post. I think BUCKMT's explanation is the closest to the truth so far. The main reason you are not seeing any young bucks is because of buck dispersal. However, I believe it is more because of the high population of does. Does will run off their own young male offspring in an attempt to prevent inbreeding when the rut comes around. This is natural and it always happens, but when you have an extremely high population of does, it gets to be too much. You will see herds of does and then very few, if any, young bucks. But you will still see older bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
..is not the natural way of things. its how fucked up things get when idiots value antlers, ANY antlers over meat.

I guess you have spoken more than you meant, as YOU are asking about management.

Say, does JASON know you are wanting to shoot up all his bucks?

i have no qualms with people wanting to shoot big antlered bucks. i dont really care for it when a person will shoot a 120 pound 4 pointer when its standing beside a 130 pound doe.
perry, we really dont have a winter, im in SC. the does seem to be the ones that get hit by cars most often, go figure.
as far as managment, i dont know what other word to use. i want to see the herd healthy and the dominant bucks breeding, not every forkhorn in a 100 mile radius.
as far as me wanting to shoot up ALL the bucks, no i dont think he cares and no thats not what i want to do.
i have self set limits.
when season starts i have to kill 2 doe before i kill a buck. If i shoot a buck before those two doe then i have to kill 5 doe before i take another antlered deer.
it works out well as i usually take one good buck and 5-7 does every year off that property.

I never really cared for the "earn a buck" BS of having to shoot a doe before you can take an antlered deer, simply because hunters should not be punished if we're going to ask them to manage the herd. Let the first deer be hunter choice, then X number of does required before a second buck is allowed, with whatever restrictions that second buck has (spread, no. of points, etc). I found far more participation with this system and far fewer button bucks shot for does after the hunters got that first deer under the belt and could take time and look at the animals and make the shooting decision. As to older bucks, there are few in any population outside of the fenced areas; if you've ever seen a life table on deer sex/age you know that with all the pressure of the rut, food competition, predation, EHD, etc etc older age class bucks have the deck stacked against them from the beginning, mortality-wise. In the east (SC, VA, NC, etc) free-ranging populations of deer have less than one percent of the male segement of the herd 4.5 years old and this diminishes rapidly as you go to 5.5, 6.5 and so on. As to sex ratio, even though whitetails are born nearly 50:50 once a population gets out of whack doe to buck, it's virtually impossible to get to the fabled "1:1" ratio. If you can get to 3:1 or even 4:1 and still be replacing the forage the population takes off of the range each year, you're doing pretty damn good.
Just my $.02
Walt

This is a photo of what will show up at your feeder at midnight. This buck has only been seen once during daylight and it was during a late December anterless season.



Perry

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:
This is a photo of what will show up at your feeder at midnight. This buck has only been seen once during daylight and it was during a late December anterless season.



Perry

wow.
he has a surefire flashlight implanted in his right eye.
no wonder he gets around in the dark so well.

BuckMt. Just about the only theoretical good thing about taking does (? 5) first would be less wear and tear on the dominant buck(s). (But in a 1:15 B ratio they'll still rub off their foreskin). It isn't uncommon to see a South Texas buck lose 30# during the rut. That's a lot of poontang chasing.

Who cares about the 2-3 1/2 y/o deer anyway- you should be shooting spikes & mature deer. Unless of course he's got a nice rack.

FWIW most/if not all high fenced places only allow you to shoot mature deer (5 1/2+ y/o).

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:
This is a photo of what will show up at your feeder at midnight. This buck has only been seen once during daylight and it was during a late December anterless season.
Perry

Fuck dude those G1s are awesome- are they both split? If he was only a bit wider though.

Kstephens
My brother hunts on land adjacent to timber company land and has the same problems. The older bucks are really weary, as in ghosts. The younger bucks get shot, period. Not much you can do about it. Feed the heck out of the herd and hope to kill the big one before the lumber guys get him.
Even a mind winter claims bucks run down.

Perry

FMC
I can't believe that there are still some spike shooters in Texas. Hey, KS, if this guy is your neighbor, we've solved the young buck problem, he's shot all the yearlings.
Of course you cannot tell what kind of antlers a buck will have at maturity by what he has on his head as a yearling. Many, many studies debunked this spike shooting fallacy years ago. Let the spike go, shoot a doe.
Walt

quote:

Originally posted by BUCKMT:
FMC
I can't believe that there are still some spike shooters in Texas. Hey, KS, if this guy is your neighbor, we've solved the young buck problem, he's shot all the yearlings.
Of course you cannot tell what kind of antlers a buck will have at maturity by what he has on his head as a yearling. Many, many studies debunked this spike shooting fallacy years ago. Let the spike go, shoot a doe.
Walt

You forget. Some of us Trophy Hunters also enjoy eating deer meat. Screw that nasty, tough, old shit, give me some nice young fresh meat. (and yes all pun intended )

"To me the main issue...was about manners. Frankly bad manners"

So why is it so hard to express yourself without using 4 lette words? Wives and kids read these threads.... El Campo?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
"To me the main issue...was about manners. Frankly bad manners"

So why is it so hard to express yourself without using 4 lette words? Wives and kids read these threads.... El Campo?

So I take it you don't fart at deer camp either?

Oh it's f____ng spelled letter.

OlArmy +1. This isn't downsouthhunting.com or other trash hunting forums. Clean up your act here.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:


So I take it you don't fart at deer camp either?

Oh it's f____ng spelled letter.

Not when there are women and children around.

And the "Oh" should be followed by a comma.

FMC
I would wholeheartedly agree, there is nothing better than a yearling buck, eatingwise. Just saying that those spikes are like teenage boys, got lots of growing to do before 21, and as far as filling the freezer, the does are standing there, ready to die. As for big antlers, if it comes by when I'm locked and loaded, I doubt I'll pass, but it's not the driving force in my deer hunting. I admire the guys that do it right, hold out for a mature animal, and while I won't shoot any more 1 or 2 year old bucks, I also won't be disappointed at the seasons end if I don't have any antlers to show for my efforts. The freezer will be full, anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:


So I take it you don't fart at deer camp either?

Oh it's f____ng spelled letter.

Not when there are women and children around.

And the "Oh" should be followed by a comma.

Good one!!!!!!!!!

Just in deer camp mode.

Oedipus is self explanatory, now for one with roosters and vacuums......

quote:

Originally posted by BUCKMT:
FMC
I would wholeheartedly agree, there is nothing better than a yearling buck, eatingwise. Just saying that those spikes are like teenage boys, got lots of growing to do before 21, and as far as filling the freezer, the does are standing there, ready to die. As for big antlers, if it comes by when I'm locked and loaded, I doubt I'll pass, but it's not the driving force in my deer hunting. I admire the guys that do it right, hold out for a mature animal, and while I won't shoot any more 1 or 2 year old bucks, I also won't be disappointed at the seasons end if I don't have any antlers to show for my efforts. The freezer will be full, anyway!

The last few deer I shot were 8 1/2 and 6 1/2 y/o. It's sure tough to pass on a nice 2-3 1/2 y/o deer. But "put two more years on him......" is a phrase I've heard and said time and again. Hey look I didn't say f___ or s___ once

WEll, this thread has run it's course, and is starting to deteriorate, so I'll end my bit here. Always ready to talk deer management, give me an email at walt@buckmountainrifleworks.com

KS--good luck with your deer property.
Walt

walt, maybe we could trade out that steyr for a 3 day 1 buck hunt?

keep up this line of thought and you will be high fencing the place in no time. dont worry about what other people do just hunt and enjoy it life is to short .

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
keep up this line of thought and you will be high fencing the place in no time. dont worry about what other people do just hunt and enjoy it life is to short .

what makes you think that.

im not looking to produce big bucks, im looking to make it so the dominant buck breeds the most does.

by the way, i found out i have some unexpected help. a 15 - 20 pound bobcat stalked withing 10 feet of me this AM around 0800. i was sitting on the ground under a cedar tree with some turkeys clucking off to my right. he came in creeping and only stopped when i (intentionally) lifted my head high.
he froze in the ponce posititon then we played the stare down game for a few nervous seconds then he bolted.
anyone that says you "need" camo is a fool.

Keep shooting the does and things will eventually work out.

Got a similar situation.

We hardly ever saw ANY deer, just a few does.

Then, finally, at the height of the rut, on a cold cloudy day with a front coming in, he came into a food plot I hadn't hunted but once before. It was so dark I couldn't make out his antlers. BANG!

Patience and perserverence will get you that big buck. I think we might see a few more, smaller bucks here now that the big boy is gone.