Sad news to all who love to hunt up in the big North Maine Woods...


After two consecutive tough winters with heavy snow that came early and left late, a coyote population that is out of control and wildlife management practices that have favored the timber industry above all else for the last 100 plus years... the chickens have come home to roost......

THERE ARE NO DEER TO SPEAK OF IN NORTHERN MAINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the usual haunts are empty, not even does yearlings or spikes. The first snow dusting have come down in the mountains and there are 0 tracks!

I am not trying to start a shit storm but let me tell anyone who is planning on coming up north to hunt this fall..save your time and money.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ???

I DON"T KNOW, I AM NOT A BIOLOGIST...


HOWEVER, the coyotes need to be controlled,

We used to snare them to great effect in Maine but as a result of a federal injunction we can't. See we have Canadian Lynx which are considered endangered in Maine. That is utter bullshit, first off they aren't all that rare here. Second they are only in limited numbers here because they wander over now and again from Canada where they have a huge population of Lynx that are hunted and trapped. So who cares if a Lynx or two gets snared that can't tell what side of the border he is on??

The deer yards and wintering areas need to be purchased by the state and preserved. These deer cannot survive out in a clearcut in 40 to 60 below winter... and an aggressive QDM program should be instituted. The days of the sustenance meat hunter is long over.

Sad but all true. I am glad I killed a deer in Wyoming this year. I doubt I will see anything this year in Maine.

If anyone thinks I am full of it or if you desire more info please feel free to PM me........

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:


THERE ARE DEER TO SPEAK OF IN NORTHERN MAINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you meant there are NO deer to speak of?
Has there been any clearcutting in the area you were in?Clearcutting will dramatically change deer habits.Look in an area that was clearcut 2-3 years ago.If there are deer in the area,they will certainly be there,rather than a mature forest.Here in minnesota ,clear cutting almost always draws deer like a magnet.Of course,they do need a place to winter.Where I hunt in northern MN,they generally winter in cedar lowlands or pine stands.

Sorry about the deer situation .... sounds like it's time to become an avid coyote hunter!

Good luck with the 'yotes!!!

JB,

Thanks for the correction..

Yeah, clear cuts do draw deer at first but the problem is that there are less and less wintering areas where thay can stay out of the heavy snow and stay safe from coyotes.

The situation is tettible. Yesterday a State Biologist told me that they estimate the deer heard to be down by 90%!!

Coyotes, I plan on focusting my free time this year hunting them, hard!

They are plentyfull and they should be hungry.

The problem with coyotes is, now that the deer population is down, they will go elsewhere. Once they start migrating into towns, I'm sure they will get peoples' attention.

We have pretty much the same problem in Northern Wi.We have so many Coyotes,Wolves and Bears it is Ridiculous.The DNR sold Doe tags over the counter ,even though they knew our herd was way down.Now they acknowledge we are way under population goals and refuse to do anything about predation.I guess that is something we have to take care of ourselves!!!!!

Whitetails in northern woods - whether in NY,Maine or Canada always have been a rare kind of deer. (When I was a teenager -and I'm 79 - the deer hunting always was much better in our NY Catskill mountains (in the southern part of NY State)than in the northern Adiroundacks) -if you just wanted to get a buck. Hunters went to the northern part of the state of NY if you wanted a bigger buck. They still do today, I suspect - and everyone understands that because the deer are bigger in the north -also means that they are fewer -much fewer. Blame coyotes if you want -they were common decades ago. It's cold,man, up in those north woods! Fewer deer survive a winter who are just too small (they are bigger, the ones who do because they have bigger body mass and develop more body heat. Yeah, it's just that simple) Oh, yeah, the rest of the hunters who don't catch up with a good enough buck? They have to catch up on hunting whitetails - they ain't stupid, you know -not even our southern whitetails. The northern ones are really smart! Northern Maine, I suspect, as always, has some big bucks well worth the trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:
JB,

Thanks for the correction..

Yeah, clear cuts do draw deer at first but the problem is that there are less and less wintering areas where thay can stay out of the heavy snow and stay safe from coyotes.

The situation is tettible. Yesterday a State Biologist told me that they estimate the deer heard to be down by 90%!!

Coyotes, I plan on focusting my free time this year hunting them, hard!

They are plentyfull and they should be hungry.

Down 90%! Wow.Somebodies head should roll for that mistake.

I was in Maine last year moose hunting North of Moosehead Lake. The locals were complaining then about the heavy snow and coyotes killing the deer herd then. In fact, we only saw one small doe the whole trip. It sounds as though Maine is need of a makeover on some policy.

Honkey,

That's tough to hear. The enviroment never was great for deer numbers and this sounds terrible. How are the areas on the coast like Knox and Waldo counties doing? They had pretty good numbers last time I hunted there about 10 years ago.

I'm old enough to remember the guys that shot the first coyotes in Maine. They didn't really know what they were in the 70's.

Mark

pcs

I used to know Moosehead Lake years ago because a family friend had a place on it - and I'm speaking of nearly 70 years ago - and, even then, it was a tourist area in summer. Are these "locals" who told you about the coyotes explaining why you didn't get a deer after they put you out on stand? If so, I would be wary about such an explanation. Ever see a coyote? (I assume you do know that they weigh barely 35 pounds) They could kill a fawn in spring - if the mother had abandoned a fawn because otherwise she would have the coyote off and running to get away from her. Just how many abandoned fawns do you think happen in the spring? Look, I appreciate and sympathize with your disappointment. Nobody likes to spend a lot of money and come up empty on a trip. Nonetheless, real hunting is not a guarantee of any success. Deer, like any other critter in nature go through cycles and in some years the hunting is not so good. I'm sorry for your disappointment -and wish you better luck next year. Why not research and find a really good outfit and talk to them and figure out that they may be really experienced woodsmen who will try to give you a good experience - still with no guarantees.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375: Ever see a coyote? (I assume you do know that they weigh barely 35 pounds) They could kill a fawn in spring - if the mother had abandoned a fawn because otherwise she would have the coyote off and running to get away from her.

I had the impression that eastern coyotes were bigger than the western variety; when we lived in Connecticut we saw some that I thought were bigger than what we see here.

The Island Falls/Mattawaumkeag Lake area is a little short on deer, too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
pcs
Ever see a coyote? (I assume you do know that they weigh barely 35 pounds) They could kill a fawn in spring - if the mother had abandoned a fawn because otherwise she would have the coyote off and running to get away from her.

Jerry,

I have seen plenty of them, I have trapped and shot them at every oppurtunity I have had. The average ADULT yote here weighs about 50 to 60 lbs.

They are not like the dogs they have out west that kill mice and ground squirels!!

These coyotes kill moose on a pretty regular basis, if you don't believe me pick up the phone and call a Maine State Game Warden or biologist.

I can't agree or disagree with what happened here 70 years ago, I was not around.

BTW I am not someione who has sour grapes over an unsucesfull hunting trip. I live hear year round.

MARK,

Coastal and Central Maine still has good numbers, it is northern Manie that is in serious crissis.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
Whitetails in northern woods - whether in NY,Maine or Canada always have been a rare kind of deer. (When I was a teenager -and I'm 79 - the deer hunting always was much better in our NY Catskill mountains (in the southern part of NY State)than in the northern Adiroundacks) -if you just wanted to get a buck. Hunters went to the northern part of the state of NY if you wanted a bigger buck. They still do today, I suspect - and everyone understands that because the deer are bigger in the north -also means that they are fewer -much fewer. Blame coyotes if you want -they were common decades ago. It's cold,man, up in those north woods! Fewer deer survive a winter who are just too small (they are bigger, the ones who do because they have bigger body mass and develop more body heat. Yeah, it's just that simple) Oh, yeah, the rest of the hunters who don't catch up with a good enough buck? They have to catch up on hunting whitetails - they ain't stupid, you know -not even our southern whitetails. The northern ones are really smart! Northern Maine, I suspect, as always, has some big bucks well worth the trip.

Actually in Northern Wi.in the late 1800`s ,early 1900`s the only Deer hunting was in Northern Wi.,because of logging.People would take trains,up from the City to hunt.I am 65 years old.When I was a kid,Bears,Wolves and Coyote were non=existant in this part of the State.There were bounties and they worked well.They were all considered vermin.It was not uncommin to see 100 Deer opening day here back then.Now Wolves have come back because they are protected,You cant shoot Yotes during the Deer season ,cause God forbid that you shoot a Wolve by mistake and Bear are now considered a Game animal ,so their take is limited.The DNR here sold Doe tags from a computer model,not any type of head count.They were completley fungo.They have ruined hunting here for years to come.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375: Ever see a coyote? (I assume you do know that they weigh barely 35 pounds) They could kill a fawn in spring - if the mother had abandoned a fawn because otherwise she would have the coyote off and running to get away from her.

I had the impression that eastern coyotes were bigger than the western variety; when we lived in Connecticut we saw some that I thought were bigger than what we see here.

The Island Falls/Mattawaumkeag Lake area is a little short on deer, too.

That is correct. The smallest yotes I see around here are way bigger than 35 pounds. My dog is 65 pounds and I regularly see yotes in that range. I moved a road killed one off the road last year that was at least 75 pounds. Here's a big one shot by a guy who lives nearby:

In my experience clear cutting helps deer. I also hunt northern MN; it gets a lot colder there than in MN and they seem to fare okay as long as the snow doesn't get too deep.

Many of my customers are paper companies. Honkey, you may think public policy favors paper/timber, but Maine is losing mills big time due to attitudes like yours.

GP and IP started to sell their timber lands in Maine due to the pressures of clearcutting. Guess who bought the land? Real estate developers. Sure, companies like Plum Creek will grow timber to sell it, but the end game is to sell land to developers.

What would you rather see: a clear cut that starts to grow back in 2-3 years (and draws deer like a magnet) or a house forever?

St. Joe Paper in Florida (stock symbol JOE) shut down their paper mills in Florida and became a real estate investment trust. They are now developing their timberlands. "Developing" means developing houses.

Be careful what you wish for.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I also hunt northern MN; it gets a lot colder there than in MN and they seem to fare okay as long as the snow doesn't get too deep.

.

Im not sure what your saying here. MN is minnesota, ME is maine,I think.
Either way,I dont think anywhere is colder than minnesota in winter.If it is,move.

Gerry,

I was moose hunting in Maine, not deer hunting. In fact, I shot a real nice moose North of the Golden road. I was just commenting on what the locals had told me as I was hanging out at their camp prior to my moose hunt as they live in Maine full time.

quote:

Originally posted by jb:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I also hunt northern MN; it gets a lot colder there than in MN and they seem to fare okay as long as the snow doesn't get too deep.

.

Im not sure what your saying here. MN is minnesota, ME is maine,I think.
Either way,I dont think anywhere is colder than minnesota in winter.If it is,move.

JB:

I lived for 10 years in International Falls. I know what cold is - it is the interior of Alaska in January. The coldest night of my life was -55 below in a tent with no heat.

But I did mean to say it gets colder in MN than ME, although I was in Madawaska once and it would have given IF a run for its money.

The cold spot in minnesota is frequently the small town of Embarrass. colder than IF

JB:

I know; IF has made it their moniker however. Icebox of the Nation, etc.

They conveniently ignore the state of Alaska.

pcs:

I congratulate you on a moose in Maine! Truly. I stand by my remarks about deer. (The posters who are talking about "coyotes" bigger than 30-35 lbs are talking about a cross breed called "coydogs" (cross between dogs and coyote pups picked up by tourists in the West and brought back and subsequently released because too difficult to handle around the house. This was happening some 40-50 years ago and I well remember it) -and I really question that "coydogs" are found in northeast woods anymore (the supply of dumb tourists ran out) -and, no, I don't believe that "evolution" works that fast. I appreciated your courteous reply to me ( even when I was offbase about what you were hunting) but the simple fact is that really big animals in northern woods just ain't that common -and it's the cold,cold air that has much to do with it!

My family owns about 55 acres in dover-foxcroft maine, about 35 minutes from moosehead lake. We had a tough winter there last year. 10' of snow or better. And as a result they didn't give out any antlerless tags in the zone we hunt, normally they give out several thousand. We deer hunt up there every november and I'd like to get up there this year, but we'll see what happens. We kill one or two a year usually and then late in the season we snowmobile the area and usually find good numbers of deer yarded up in late winter, 25-30 deer at a clip. Last year we hardly saw any. WIll be interesting to see the numbers this year. I've never hunted farther north than we are, but I can imagine it will be bad this year. Oh yeah, we hear coyotes going mad behind our place all the time, sounds like a dozen of em sometimes...

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
pcs:

I congratulate you on a moose in Maine! Truly. I stand by my remarks about deer. (The posters who are talking about "coyotes" bigger than 30-35 lbs are talking about a cross breed called "coydogs" (cross between dogs and coyote pups picked up by tourists in the West and brought back and subsequently released because too difficult to handle around the house. This was happening some 40-50 years ago and I well remember it) -and I really question that "coydogs" are found in northeast woods anymore (the supply of dumb tourists ran out) -and, no, I don't believe that "evolution" works that fast. I appreciated your courteous reply to me ( even when I was offbase about what you were hunting) but the simple fact is that really big animals in northern woods just ain't that common -and it's the cold,cold air that has much to do with it!

I heard a different story in Maine, that U. Maine went to the state legislature (sounds wrong - maybe Fish and Game?) one year with a request to release some coyote/wolf hybrids. The legislature said no. The opinion of the storyteller was, U. Maine wanted to legitimize something that had already happened by accident.

I understand that yotes run slightly bigger up north and your eastern coyote is bigger than your western but I've trapped coyotes mainly in TN and OK plus some in WY. 35# would be on the big side anywhere I've trapped. You take a coyote in winter fur and he looks a whole lot bigger than he is. I've never seen a coyote that would even approach 75# on a scale.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

I heard a different story in Maine, that U. Maine went to the state legislature (sounds wrong - maybe Fish and Game?) one year with a request to release some coyote/wolf hybrids. The legislature said no.

If this were the case there would be a long paper trail. I'll give the first person that can find one piece of evidence that shows that this was considered by the legislature a nickel.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
pcs:

I congratulate you on a moose in Maine! Truly. I stand by my remarks about deer. (The posters who are talking about "coyotes" bigger than 30-35 lbs are talking about a cross breed called "coydogs" (cross between dogs and coyote pups picked up by tourists in the West and brought back and subsequently released because too difficult to handle around the house. This was happening some 40-50 years ago and I well remember it) -and I really question that "coydogs" are found in northeast woods anymore (the supply of dumb tourists ran out) -and, no, I don't believe that "evolution" works that fast. I appreciated your courteous reply to me ( even when I was offbase about what you were hunting) but the simple fact is that really big animals in northern woods just ain't that common -and it's the cold,cold air that has much to do with it!

So you know better than all of us who live here, huh? You're full of crap about your "coy dog" theory. The ones around here are larger, smarter, and far more aggressive than their western counterparts. We see the proof of it all the time around here. Fact.

Been vacationing in Norway, Maine for 35yrs now, hunted it a couple times and have always been amazed at how few deer I have seen--probably less than a dozen over that time span despite what looks like amazing deer habitat.
On the other hand my cousin-in-law took a fat necked 10pointer a few years back.

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
pcs:

I congratulate you on a moose in Maine! Truly. I stand by my remarks about deer. (The posters who are talking about "coyotes" bigger than 30-35 lbs are talking about a cross breed called "coydogs" (cross between dogs and coyote pups picked up by tourists in the West and brought back and subsequently released because too difficult to handle around the house. This was happening some 40-50 years ago and I well remember it) -and I really question that "coydogs" are found in northeast woods anymore (the supply of dumb tourists ran out) -and, no, I don't believe that "evolution" works that fast. I appreciated your courteous reply to me ( even when I was offbase about what you were hunting) but the simple fact is that really big animals in northern woods just ain't that common -and it's the cold,cold air that has much to do with it!

So you know better than all of us who live here, huh? You're full of crap about your "coy dog" theory. The ones around here are larger, smarter, and far more aggressive than their western counterparts. We see the proof of it all the time around here. Fact.

Slug:

My first thoughts on reading your post is, "How much time have you spent in the West?"

My observation of most folks in the East (I was born there) is that they don't leave their own backyard very often.

Enough to know what a 30 pound animal looks like compared to a 60 pound animal. I get out plenty, thank you. Have lived all over the world and spend time in Nevada and Utah every year. Good enough for you?

No, I'm not an outdoor writer but I'm also not an arrogant ass who assumes someone who lives a couple thousand miles away must be a hick that never leaves their home town. Et tu?

It seems like some of you guys assume that because an animal doesn't live in the "Wild West" it can't be very big or at all dangerous. I guess wolverines in the Mid-West must be wimps! Is it beyond your grasp that coyotes here might actually be a different animal then you're familiar with?

I have no strong opinion on coyotes. I find it unlikely that coyotes there weigh twice as much as coyotes elsewhere, but I won't stake my life on it. I know bobcats have weight ranges all over the map.

You might be an authority on Eastern coyotes, but I doubt very much you are an authority on Western coyotes. So you in fact act just like the "arrogant" guys you complain about. I am making no conclusions about coyotes at all.

Have a nice day.

I'm no authority on any coyotes. I only know what I see and what I've read and researched. See some of the articles on the other thread I started.

Anyone still think they can't kill a deer??

Coyote ( two of them ) just killed a full grown woman in Canada!!!

Since I'm getting a lot of flak about what I said about "coydogs" -couldn't somebody post a picture of a recently shot coyote in states like Maine or New Hampshire showing an animal bigger than 35 lbs? Look, guys, I'm not a coyote advocate. I hate them and regard them as true vermin. All I'm saying is that they are not so good at pulling down northern woods white tails - because your deer are bigger than southern NY white tails. (I have personally seen coyotes pull down a doe in southern NY -and start to eat her while she was still alive so I don't have to be educated about not liking coyotes) I am simply questioning that any coyote can pull down a healthy white tail in northern woods like Maine -and I don't mean grabbing an early fawn. Pictures ,please and dates.