this deer was shot at 35yds with a .308 165gr bullet. in the first picture you can barely see the entrance wound on the right side. i would estimate it hit around 2.5" above the bottom of the brisket. the muscle on the brisket was fileted open and a perfect 2" exit hole was in the leg opposite the entrance side. the bullet did not penetrate the chest cavity and no ribs were broken. the deer ran approx 40 yds. when field dressing the deer, there was no blood in the chest cavity, the only thing abnormal was the heart. it was fractured in several pieces. what are your thoughts on the post mortem???
entrance/exit
heart

Im no vet but that doesnt look like a heart to me all it looks like is a big blood clot unless i am missing something of the pics.

same thing I was thinking, looks like blood clots to me

like i said, there was no penetration in the chest cavity all ribs and sternum intact and there was no heart. when field dressing the deer, a vessel was nicked, a stream of blood shot out the size of a pencil around 12" for several seconds. also, there was no blood trail leading to the deer.

If bullet did not go into the chest cavity, how was the heart blown up? Looks like clotted blood to me.

What was your bullet/load?

I have just finished the field dressing of three whitetails in the last 24 hours... Those are clearly blood clots.

since i didn't find the heart, my hypothesis is this:

the bullet hit the rib cage low close to the heart. the bullet took an anomalous course and deflected downward ripping out the muscle on the sternum. 2,500 ft/lbs of energy hit the chest wall and since there was no penetration in the chest cavity this energy was transfered from the chest wall to the heart. this caused the heart to fracture in several pieces. i agree, there is clot there, but that was probably due to the blood in the aorta, vena cava and pulmonary ateries/veins emptying. if you enlarge the picture, you can actually see what appears to be the inside of a ventricle (top left) and the cordae tendinae of the valves (top right). like i said, as i was field dressing the deer and rolling the contents of the chest cavity out, there was no intact heart, just this mass of clot and tissue. there was no other blood in the chest cavity. the only time i see blood in the chest cavity is when arteries/veins are distrupted and the heart is intact. with an intact heart, it continues to pump blood until there is no more blood to pump.

btw, the bullet was an interbond vel approx 2700 fps, 2,670 ft/lb engery at the muzzle. by the damage of the sternal tissue, i'm sure the bullet expanded as designed.

I don't see anything but clot, perhaps with better photographs?!?

Looks to me like your bullet probably fragmented and tore up the heart with a shitload of clot. It just didn't hit any bone on the way in. That just looks like one big blood clot to me.

The presumption of shock is erroneous and negated by the fact the deer didn't drop on the spot. Had the alleged concussive "shock" been enough to "fragment" the heart, it certainly should/would have "shocked" the spinal cord and dropped the deer on the spot. Moreover, the lungs being in essence bags of blood would have had significant pulmonary contusions and hemmorrhage from such a "concussion."

The "blood in the vena cava aorta and pulmonary arteries emptying" would also imply chest penetration. Blood inside intact vessels would be more liquified as it has not yet clotted. Exactly what you encountered when you "nicked" the vessel. And when you dress a deer.

Sorry but there is no way that there is a heart in that picture only blood clots. You must have just taken the heart out wrapped in the lungs or something and missed it.

all of the explainations assume the bullet entered the chest cavity. it did not enter the chest cavity.

impact of bullet right chest, paper referencing impact point

inside of right chest, paper referencing impact on other side

inside of right chest, paper referencing impact on other side, different view

inside of chest cavity, impact referenced with utility blade

note, there is no disruption of ribs or intercostal tissue.

Your shot broke the deers neck and it sufficated. What you are calling the heart is coagulated blood.

Perry

Perry
now thats funny, LOL

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Your shot broke the deers neck and it sufficated. What you are calling the heart is coagulated blood.

Perry

ok, then what did the deer die from? i guess the shock to the chest wall could have disected the aorta just as in blunt force trauma to the chest of a human in a MVA. my point is, no bullet entry to the chest cavity and yet the deer died.

quote:

Originally posted by exsanguinate:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Your shot broke the deers neck and it sufficated. What you are calling the heart is coagulated blood.

Perry

ok, then what did the deer die from? i guess the shock to the chest wall could have disected the aorta just as in blunt force trauma to the chest of a human in a MVA. my point is, no bullet entry to the chest cavity and yet the deer died.

Death is from a broken heart. LOL JK

From your first picture it looks as though there is trauma to the base of the neck where it meets just infront of the chest. I have seen lots of deer shot there and it breaks the neck and the deer sufficates. The coagulated blood it from the broken vessels around the wound. If teh throat is breached and could run into the chest cavity creating what looked like teh heart.
Does that make sense?

Perry

the neck was not breached. the entrance hole was on the right side of the deer's lower sternum. it ripped the muscles on the sternum (1st picture) and proceded to exit the left lower leg (no bone, just muscle).

here is a picture of the bullet's impact area. it is just to the left of the piece of paper.

Must have just been the shock and then maybe blood loss that killed it. I shot a little buck a couple of years ago. It was a broadside shot about 75 yards with a 30-06 165 grain ballistic tip. I grazed the front of the chest making the same sort of wound, I never hit any vitals just made a large looking hole right across the front of the chest under the neck. The deer dropped quickly and never got up.

Ex...
The deer obviously knew you were an AR member thus realizing there was reason to fight his imenent death due to your vast body of huntin/shooting knowledge that we all provide you. He simply took his own life while you were not looking.

Perry

Maybe this sheds some light?



.

That's clotted blood. There is no vissible muscle tissue of any kind in the picture. Aside from conducting hundreds of post mortems on animals, while working as a paramedic and police officer, I have sat through many human autopsys as well. I don't know what happened to the heart, but that ain't it. Lou

[QUOTE]Originally posted by exsanguinate:
the neck was not breached. the entrance hole was on the right side of the deer's lower sternum. it ripped the muscles on the sternum (1st picture) and proceded to exit the left lower leg (no bone, just muscle).

If that is correct, then the bullet must have entered the thorax. It is physically impossible to go from right front chest to left rear hindquarter without going through the body i.e. thorax then abdomen.

Perhaps you may want to ask Arlen Spectre (? sp) for some help with this "magic" bullet.

But Doc is right there ain't no heart tissue in that photo, it's clot.

erict, thanks for the picture. the bullet hit the sternal area approx on the 9th rib counting from the rear. the heart lies directly behind the impact zone. the exit hole was on the left front leg. again, the chest cavity was not penetrated.

bullet passing through sternal muscle into left front leg

bullet exit on left front leg

I think the shock wave from the bullet destroyed the heart. I shoot a .300 RUM and am always amazed at the destruction done to surrounding tissue as the bullet passes through an animal. My guess is that the heart was compressed as the bullet impacted, and the heart literally exploded as the energy from the bullet passed into the chest cavity. I'm guessing you know where the heart is supposed to be and thus there is no other explanation.

Hi Folks

The pile of red stuff is just blood clot, there is no large volume of muscle tissue present there.A 308 is not going to shock a muscle as dense as a heart into mush. However the heart is attached to the base of the chest cavity and your bullet may have detached it from the top of the sternum causing it to float off into the chest cavity where it was removed when removing the lungs.

Mark

Mark, I'll agree. I once hit a deer directly on the liver with my 6.5x55. It disintergrated the liver .But it certainly didn't turn it into mush and liver isn't even muscle tissue .There were pieces but none bigger than 1/8".Every other deer I've ever butchered always had tissue ,not just clots, no matter how badly damaged.

I have seen simalar things happen. Usually there are fragments of bone or bullet that take very different angles from the bullet path. These fragments are usually very small and are very hard to spot. This usualy happens when a bullet hits bone at what would usually be a none lethal hit (Ie. sternum or a severe angle rib hit) the usuall reaction is for the animal to run a little ways and then die. There is usually very little blood trail but alot of blood in the chest cavity.

For some reason that I don't understand the tiny fragments wounds appear to bled more than a regular bullet wound. Anyway this is what I am guessing happended to your deer is a fragment of bone or bullet defected up into the heart. As far as the heart being gone I think you probably just missed it because it is very easly to miss with alot of blood clots in the way.

I tend to agree with MtElkHunter. I think bullet and bone fragments tore up the heart. Best thing is you harvested the deer.
I had a very strange thing happen several years ago with a 7mm rem mag and a 140 gr. Nosler partition. The shot was about 25 yards. The bullet entered the lower chest area. It simply appeared to turn around and exit about 4 inches higher. It did not even appear to touch any part of the deer except the muscular tissue outside the chest cavity. But the heart and lungs were full of little holes. Bone or bullet fragments I don't know. It was in fact a "bang-flop" kill. I still wonder to this day.

i was talking to a urologist the other day regarding trama to a kidney. she said with enough force, the kidney or any organ (heart, liver) can fracture into several pieces. she has actually did a couple nephrectomies (removal of the kidney) were this has happened. she told me the kidney looked like a clotted mass.

so, with 2,600 ft/lbs of energy slamming the heart between the chest walls (there was no evidence of chest wall penetration or fractured ribs), i believe this would cause the heart to fracture is several pieces. since there was blood in the ventricles and muscle tissue itself, the mass of material (heart) did look like a clot.

One of the most interesting things about the forensic side of hunting is the unknown. There is a part of the hunter who craves to know exactly what happened, and the sad truth that we can never know exactly what happened! All bullets and all animals do not react the same. All we can do is make educated guesses based upon prior or expected performance. The very first buck I killed with a handgun ( circa 1973, caliber .44 mag) showed no entrance or exit wound. The load was the Speer 3/4 jacket 225 grain, Winchester brass and 24 grains of 2400 with a CCi mag primer fired from my 8 3/8" S&W Model 29.

I can only assume as my African mentor A. Q. Fitzmayer had taught me,... "It's the bang which kills them."

I think DC Roxby wins the prize. The heart was destroyed by hydrostatic shock, and no penetration of the chest cavity was required. Sort of like barking a squirrel, but not a real high percentage shot!

We hear a lot about killing by shock, but most of the usual target area (lungs) is full of air and will not transmit a shock wave very effectively. The heart is liquid filled and will transmit a shock wave very well.

I do not know the factors involved in the clotting of blood, but apparently this qualifies.

Saw an interesting demonstration on the Perfect Shot video. Two plastic bottles, one filled completely with water, one only partially filled. When the full bottle is shot it explodes violently. The partially filled bottle does not. The point being that if the heart is struck when compressed and filled with blood a similar result may occur. Explains why some heart shot animals run and others simply collapse.

The picture of the heart does look like a bunch of clotted blood but I do see muscle tissue in the center. Exsanguinate, If you do this again it might be helpful to wash the heart off. I am pretty fascinated by this stuff and always interested in how bullets perform.

Can't explain it.. maybe just an over-active imagination.. you didn't really kill that deer, he is in the next county laughing it up.. don't know what that is on your plate, but definitly NOT venison steak.... Les

I hunted whitetail near Harlowton MT once. Had a buck run across alfalfa field about 50 yards from me. I was using a Winchester M70 Featherweight in 30-06 shooting 165gr Hornady sp. The bullet connected with the deer as it was at the top of its leap. The bullet cut the hide and muscle but did NOT break the sturnum or enter the chest cavity.

The heart was in several pieces.

Maybe it is something about Montana deer but I doubt it.

Think about one of our steroid-enriched baseball players hitting you in the chest with one of their bats--do you think your heart would survive? And what about older cars and accidents (no air bags) where the driver slams into the steering column. I'm just an old retired guy but I would bet the hammer on the sternum caused the heart damage, muscle tissue visible in the photo or not.