The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting WHY LEUPOLD?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
I should clarify something to my last post... When talking of rifles I was meaning bolt rifles. When it comes to doubles and over unders there is a big range of quality and reliability involved.... multiple barrel guns are more complicated and require more care and craftsmen ship to make a quality gun... I would also like to add that when you are far from home hunting a warranty is as valuable as the paper its printed on, which isnt much... Unless the company can get you a scope within a couple days there is no real advantage when hunting.... | |||
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| <Caveman> |
BUELL, You sure are making a lot of friends on this forum. Just an observation. Corey | ||
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Corey- I never did like crowds... Yours truly, BUELL | |||
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Jagermaister, about your statement "The US is the super power because the US has more money. There have been certain occurances throughout the recent history of the world, particularly in the 20th century that have given the US the edge. Certanly, if the German economy was shaped more like that of the US, and was funded as heavily. it would rise to the top and the great techological advances could be attributed to Germany. ----- That statement may not necessarily be true. The reason why the US has been a super power is because this nation was founded on the principle of liberty. Freedom is something that can't be understood by nations that have been oppressed throughout history. Those immigrants who were lucky enough to brake the chains of oppression in Europe, Asia, and in a great number of countries where the ones that helped this nation become and stay free. Free minds allow for experimentation, development, and in the creation of new things. But some day when Americans become socialists and the morals go down the drain, America will not longer be a super power. Germany is a very old country when compared to the US, but it has hardly been free. Even now you can't be free, but instead you are part of a conglomerate of nations, like the link in a chain. Just like Pink Floyd's song "Welcomed to the machine!" See... the thing is that when minds are not free, new ideas can't develop and turn into progress, and that can turn a whole nation stagnant. The American industry is not funded as heavily as you think. Almost all nations have been allowed to participate in the US economy. Companies form Germany, Japan and other Asian nations, Britain, and nations from all over the world have some type of industry operating in the US. | |||
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quote: Really.... My Zeiss is a bit brighter than my Leupold, but then, this is a 30mm tube vs. a 1" tube. Clarity does not seem to be much different from one to the other. I just spent some time using both to observe the flag across the street at 9:00 PM, (MST). Conclusion.... they are both very good scopes! I do, however, think your definition of "much brighter and much clearer" differs from that held by us mere mortals.
quote: Ahhh.... this really isn't about scopes is it, Buell? Have a day. ~Holmes | |||
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| <Jagermeister> |
so then HOLMES, this is not about scopes for you either, rather, belittling others with subtle offenses ("to us mere mortals") and instigating political controversy, no? It's pretty obvious it has deviated from solely a scope debate, but it was good of you to take notice... | ||
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Jagermeister, Here is where the belittling started as I noted previously:
quote: The insinuation is rather obvious. My comment regarding mere mortals was not subtle nor was it intended to be so. The political implications are certainly not mine. They are, again, extremely obvious. Rather difficult to ignore. ~Holmes | |||
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Homles- You are taking my words for something other then what they are and were meant to be. I guess I have to explain everything I say to each person once, sometime twice before they get it. As I said before, if someone saying they like the best things, and the people who just settle for things below the quality of the guy who likes nice things always seem to try a belittle the first person... Thats the way it always has been and always will... Just because some people like nicer things does not make them immortal, as opposed to your mortal.. If you subject yourself to these kinds of flaws then I couldnt care less about you and your opinion... If you have to resort to snyde comments to get your point across I have no respect for you... The subject of this thread has been changed numerous times. I suspect that many threads share the same fate. I hope you will take the time and comment on each thread that goes off the original topic how bad they all are for doing such devious acts... better yet why doesnt Saeed send you a ribbon with the title of " thread subject supervisor "? You seem to be good at it... If you cannot accruately gauge the difference between a Leupold and Zeiss then maybe you shouldnt be commenting on such a mis-squewed thread such as this... If there is not a difference between the two then why did you 'waste' your money on such an over engineered peice of German junk? Didnt you test each scope before you bought it? My comments you quoted and then anaylzed for me- well I said them but the analyzations are incorrect. There is nothing in the first quote about my choice vs. the choices of other people on these threads and how my choice makes me better... Maybe it is just that you are afraid to admit that you like the german scopes better and you sub-consciencously (sp?) must refute my comments. You then do this by putting thoughts in my head for me... The bottom line is you get what you pay for. Peoples pride becomes very threatened when someone like myself comes on here and makes some good points for my side.... You are entitled to your opinion. | |||
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| <Jagermeister> |
johnnyHOLMES, I'm only messing around. I think debates are a bad idea any way you go: it involves taking people with set ideas and forcing one of them , or one side, to surrender their view, admit they are wrong, and finally take up the opposing view. Nobody wants to do any of that. On scopes: it really depends on who's judging the optic, really. Some people don't find the 30mm worth the weight or bulk or whatever; some do however. Some can clearly see the difference between looking through a Leupold and looking through a Zeiss. Some cannot really tell the difference at all. SO, it again comes down to subjectivity. Is Leupold good enough for you? Has it ever failed? Is it bright, and clear and adaquately waterproof? If yes, why not stick with it. I don't care. For the firsttimer though, some weighing of the data may be in order. Compare prices, weight, clarity, appearance, etc and choose for yourself what you want: it's your investment, so don't let anyone make your mind for you. see ya | ||
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Jagermiester well stated. ------------------ | |||
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| <GAHUNTER> |
"O'Doul Rules!" (Anybody who can tell me where that comes from wins a gold star." | ||
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| <Mike Anderson> |
I didn't read all of this scope bashing, but I got enough of it. Some guy from california claiming to be a rifle shooter who wants to bash Leupold. Get real fella!!! Your just showing your ignorance. The goal is to hit where you aim! | ||
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| <Red Green> |
Noting the disdainful connotation toward Leupold scopes in the original poster's question, the answers should have been, "It's not your business why I use Leupolds." He was already convinced that Leupolds are crap compared to Euro scopes (and I'm not here to either confirm or deny that), so what's the point of responding? No one is going to convince him (or Buell) otherwise. Similarly, no one is going to convince a diehard Leupold user otherwise. There's no point in trying to do so anyway. After reading this thread, I felt like I was back in the third grade on the playground during recess watching a fight that started with, "My dad can beat up your dad." If you guys want to continue to act like children, take it over to huntingbbs.com with all the other 15 year olds. Otherwise, let's put a halt to this pissing contest. I enjoy this site, and I particularly enjoy the fact that quite a few posters are not from North America. When the my-rifle-is-better-than-your-rifle arguments start, people stop frequenting the board, and it dries up. I'd hate to see that happen. [This message has been edited by Red Green (edited 02-21-2002).] | ||
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| <Jagermeister> |
thanks, very much...I gloat in the praise LOL yes, the "why leupold" debate had raged prior to this one; it was unnecesary (unless, of course, monz meant to cause a commotion, in which case it was entirely necessary!!) | ||
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| One of Us |
Jager, On my trip to Zim.in November I used a Winchester Safari Express in .416 rem. Love the rifle. I think this is the rifle you are looking at and I wasn't bothered by the grip at all. Regards, JohnTheGreek | |||
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| <Jagermeister> |
Yeah John, it was the Safaris x-press that I was looking at. Seems like a really good bargain, at under $900. Someteims accuracy is highly overrated, I agree. See ya | ||
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Not to stir the pot or anything but on Sun I took my CZ416Rigby out to try a few shots. I've had it for a while but only shot with open sights. I mounted a Leopold 4x that I've had for some time. After the second shot I noticed the horizontal crosshair broken at the point where it gets narrow. This is the first major failure I've had with any scope. Anyone else had this problem? I sent it to be repaired so we'll see what happens.Mark | |||
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Mike A.- Maybe if you would have taken the time to read the thread you would have known that on several ocasions I said Leupolds are good scopes. On my last post I commented that for people to get what is being said I have to respond to each person one by one. My main beef with Leupolds is that you can get a better scope for NOT VERY much more, and that there are a lot of myths with European scopes... Most people dont take the time to find out whats new in the gun world. When they go to buy a scope they see the Leupolds and thats it. I would make a guess that over 50% of American hunters don't know very much if at all about European scopes and what they have to offer... Where I live has nothing to do with this discussion. Its not like the scopes I have aval to me are different then the ones you are aval to... Please explain to me what I am being ignorant about... No one has been able to show a good factual reason for buying a Leupold over a comparable European scope other then the factory is here in the US. The only other reasons giver are purely opinions... Do you not think people who buy a scope simply because its made in the US is ignorant? Red- If you could ever convince me with facts and not myths and opinions that Leupolds should be bought over European scopes, I would surely change my opinions... By posting that you don't like these types of threads you are only keeping them up further. If you don't like it then don't respond... I have thought the bickering has kept to a minimum on this thread. It has not been me that has made the rudest comments... 358 Mark- As with any scope there is a chance of failure. I am sure it has happened with every scope maker out there. Your example is why I like the European scopes with etched on reticles. They cannot break.... Leupold uses seperate "wires"... | |||
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quote: Since I had never owned a Leupold before I found myself rather dependant upon the advice of other hunters, many of whom are members of this site. Some of these gentlemen have had decades of experience with Leupold and I respect their opinions. Additionally, I spent a good deal of time travelling around the Rocky Mountain states to personally examine the various models and talk with other hunters in person. Unfortunately, in-store perusal will never suffice for actually having the optic mounted on one's rifle under field conditions. I have not regretted the selection so far and I'm sure the various dealers around these states are glad I'm done for awhile!
quote: As a youngster, I bought a few scopes simply on price alone. Those were lessons learned the hard way. I have learned to identify my needs and investigate the options. Advice from seasoned veterans that have been where I want to go is also invaluable. Sifting rhetoric from reality can be a chore, but it is the nature of the beast. Take care. ~Holmes | |||
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quote: If I have indeed misconstrued the intent of your comments then I offer my apology.
quote: I am obviously one of those "twice" kind of guys....
quote: I believe I'll pass on that one.
quote: Pass again.
quote: Never claimed German scopes to be junk. On the contrary, I believe Zeiss scopes to be the finest optic going for many applications. German optical engineers gave the world a wonderful gift many years ago and are still a leading factor in the industry. This does not, however, relegate Leupold to a secondary position by default. Leupold has diversified in many areas, e.g., heavy recoil handguns, shotguns, long eye relief low powered optics for heavy recoiling rifles, etc. For an DGR, I choose Leupold. For a general big game rifle, I choose Zeiss. For a magnum handgun I choose Leupold. Personal preferences for different applications. Neither company reached their position of industry leadership by marketing scopes with less than excellent optics, reliability, and service.
quote: Again, I apologise for the misinterpretation.
quote: I like them both equally. Nothing subconscious about it at all. ~Holmes | |||
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Holmes... Thank you for your apology. Misunderstandings can be very easy when words are written and not spoken.. I will say it again that I think and know Leupolds are good scopes. I don't think you can go wrong by getting one. There are a few things I don't like about the European scopes. The main one is that that are sometimes appear to be an ogre of a scope. I like more compact scopes. One of the scopes I like the best is the Schmidt and Bender fixed 4 or 6 powerx 36MM... A very nice scope...However the European makers are learning to make compacter scopes nowadays... I would like to know why you don't use Zeiss on your heavy rifles? Any paticular reason why? | |||
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quote: (chuckling) One of the problems I had taking my Zeiss off and replacing it with the Leupold was the appearance! I really like those large elegant Zeiss lines. I know performance should be priority one, yet, aesthetics will always play a role in my firearms enthusiasm. The little Leupold still looks funny on my Model 70.
quote: One reason only.... eye relief. My Zeiss is an older model 1.5 X 6 X 42mm and has served me well. As I use a .375 H&H as an all around rifle, I was having trouble with scope-to-skull contact from prone positions and such when hunting varmints with it. I prefer to do all my shooting with full power loads as that is the trajectory I am familiar with. When chasing prairie dogs I need the full magnification and this is where the eye relief becomes too abbreviated. Also, working loads at the bench was hazardous as I am not much of a benchrest guy and tend to crawl up the stock when concentrating. The Leupold, 1.5 X 5 V-III, gives me nearly twice the eye relief as the Zeiss and allows an appreciable margin of error. The extra eye relief also makes the Leupold much easier to shoot with both eyes open. This is a technique that I really need to learn. I currently practice on jackrabbits to improve my offhand marksmanship and try to use both eyes. Regards, ~Holmes | |||
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Holmes... I think the scope choice as far as magnification is concerned is largely, for me, a matter decided upon the caliber, the rifle and the distances shooting will take place... Steiner rifle scopes has that "hunting Z" rifle scope that has very good eye relief, even better then Leupold....They are pretty good scopes... One area that should never be in question for optical superiority are binocs and spotting scopes... | |||
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358Mark: With most fixed power scopes, including Leupold 4x and 6x, you have to be careful on where the ring grips the scope. I bet the problem you had with your 4x Leupold was related to the ring putting too much pressure over that portion of the tube right over the reticle. You may want to call Leupold and explain the problem, but they will need to know what type of bases and rings you are using. | |||
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quote: Agreed. Using one rifle and scope combination for a variety of applications always results in some compromise. Fortunately, I have a few specialty arms for serious varminting with appropriate optics, but the .375 is so much fun. "Tis my renaissance rifle....
quote: That's one brand I was unable to look at. I am a Steiner fan and will have to investigate their scopes.
quote: I would say that is a given. I still have yet to acquire a good spotting scope. A nice piece of equipment to have when going for a big goat. ~Holmes | |||
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| <ChuckD> |
Getting back to the subject------my 1970 2X7 vari-X II is NOT the clearest scope I own--Just the one that has NEVER failed. It has been on 4 different rifles, has been fallen on countless times ( I hunt in very steep, brushy, and wet areas in Oregon). In that I love hunting in stormy weather (read REALLY wet), I value a scope that does not ever fog internally. Most will, except Leupold. Since this company is also in Oregon, they appear to understand the problem. While I like nice bright optics as much as the next guy, They dont seem very bright to me when they are fogged up. So I'll stick with Leupold just the same--they always work! | ||
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| <GAHUNTER> |
Enough of this Crap! Leupold is a GREAT scope -- one of the best, if not the best, 1-inch tube scopes around. I own two. Zeiss is a FABULOUS scope, albiet expensive and a bit heavy for my taste. I have a Conquest, which I find a little on the heavy side for totin' around. Kahles? Well I just bought one for my WSM. Sure hope it's good! Made by Swarovski, primarily for the American market. Swarovski? If I were in the market for a 30mm tube, I'd rather have a Zeiss for the cost. I also own a Baush and Lomb Elite series scope. Use it in wet, cold conditions because of the Rain Guard feature. Love it! Whatever floats your boat, guys. | ||
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| <heider> |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buell: [B]Monz- I for one agree with you. Maybe the reason the top european scope makers dont have as good a warranty as Leupold is that their scopes are not in need of a warranty, as they have a very slim chance of breaking. Great insight.....Lifetime Warranty is a scam, I gonna take a Tasco to Africa (dangerous game) This thread has given me new perspective on hunting! | ||
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What are the worst scope failures I've had. � 1) Leupold 36BR on a 13.5 heavy varmint 6mm 2) Leupold 36BR on same heavy varmint.Started shooting .4s after 1500 3) Leupold 36BR on a 10.5 light varmint 6mm PPC that would agg in the 4) Leupold 24x with old friction style AO.No floating erector tube on 5)Leupold 3.5-10x40 VariX III.Lost focus never to return after 2100 Most of my bench guns had problems starting at or around 1000 rounds.Most Leupolds will develop .2 to .4 of crap in them at this number of rounds fired.No matter what gun you have it mounted on. | |||
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| <rugerman> |
I bought my one and only Leupold. When you would tighten the rings down, you couldn't adjust the power. I sent it back and got my money back and bought another Simmons Aetec. I own four of those and never had a problem. | ||
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What a bunch of horsehockey, People that bash Leupold must have spent most of their time on the bench, in an urban office, the computer and in Cyberspace and very little time in the the hunting fields, though they may claim differently. It just don't jibe!! There is one hell of a lot of difference in price between these European scopes and a Leupold, more than several hundred dollars and thats because of Customs duties etc. but never the less a fact... The opposition has turned this thread into a joke with a ton of BS...Euro scopes are bigger, bulky, and have a slick finish thats hard to hold, they are overpriced and if they have better "clarity" I cannot tell it and so what, all one needs to see is the animal and the crosshairs. You guys gotta be counting ticks Maybe for benchrest the expensive Euro scopes are better, who knows, I have never seen a Euro scope on a benchrest rifle. I am firmly convienced that the Leupold is the best hunting scope in the world and I will continue to use them for another half century, God willing but the odds ain't good Yes, I have used the others and decided it was a rip off for my hard earned money and I could utilize that money savings for trophy fees, and more shooting practice or whatever. ------------------ | |||
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As with any scope regardless of brand, one has to be careful when mounting it on the rifle. The mounts and rings must be perfectly aligned, and to accomplish that one must use the proper tools for the task. A scope that has been improperly installed can't be a fault, but even so, Leupold will fix must damage free of charge. They are also known for repairing major damage to their scopes free of charge, even if when don't have to. And lets not forget Japanese scopes such as Nikon and Pentax. These are very nice scopes, but for some reason their warranty is not as good as Leupold's. I understand that some of you believe that you don't need a warranty if the scope is a "good quality" product, so if you can afford it, go ahead and buy it. But before you buy, call the company and ask them to explain in detail the lifetime warranty of the product. Some companies require a receipt of purchase, a registration, and sometimes require that you pay for the labor. Some companies won't even honor the warranty if you purchase the product from a dealer or shop that has not been "authorized" by them. In that case the only warranty you get is the one from the store, and usually for 90 days to a year. Read the article titled "Big Country Optics" in the January 2002 issue of Rifle, and you will see a non-biased opinion on a great number of scopes. I agree with Ray on his view of scopes. I like scopes that are not too large up in front, since I don't have the need to "salamize" the rifle. You can ask any guide in Alaska about scopes, and the answer will must likely be: "Leupold." And yes, a great number of European scopes are great, but some of the Leupold scopes are great enough for our hunting conditions in Alaska. | |||
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Ive several VariX III and a Zeiss Conquest and a Leica Ultravid which incidentally was made in the Leupold Plant with Leica Glass. The Zeiss and the Leica are OPTICALLY superior to my Leupolds. But, and thats a big BUT, It will be several years before I trust them as I do my Leupolds. The Conquest is priced right along with Vari X III's and if it hold up for the long haul it will be great. Why did I buy it and not a Leupold. Its a long story, wasn't planned just turned out that way. The Leica is the best but was quite a bit more. Not as much as the price diffrence. | |||
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Ray, Frankly you dont know what the hell you are talking about... The european scopes have come along way in the past few years for the american market. They are now on par with Leupolds for size and weight between the one inch tubes... I would make a guess that you are comparing the 30MM euro scopes to the ONE inch Leupolds. In that case, ofcourse they are going to be heavier and larger... Here are the stats on 3 COMPARABLE scopes... Swaro 3x10x42 ONE inch tube weight 12.5OZ length 12.36IN around 600-700 DEPENDING ON where you get it... Leupold VX3 3.5x10x40 weight 13OZ length 12.5IN around 400-500 Zeiss conquest 3.5x10x44 weight 14OZ length 12.6 IN price 399.99 As you can see, well maybe, they are all almost exactly the same size and weight, with a variation of 1.5 OZ and .24IN in length... The swaro scope has more range of power, weighs less, is not as long, and is brighter... As you may have also noted the prices on the one inch tubed scopes are not that far off from each other... You just have to know where to look... I never bashed Leupold. I have only said they are good scopes... Continue to use whatever the hell you like but do not spread false facts about the products you dont use/like... | |||
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I've just got to get into this. Over the years I have owned most brands of scopes at one time or another. For all around performance NOTHING but the very expensive European scopes performed with the Leupolds. Recently I was assured that had changed and was talked into buying a World Class Tasco target scope. I figured I had little to loose as it was going on a .300 to play with at the range. After twenty shots there was an unidentified black spot wandering around in the field of view and shortly thereafter one of the adjustment knobs fell off! The scope has been gone to Tasco now for eight weeks. When it comes back I will be more than glad to sell it to anyone that wants it. Either that or use it for a duck decoy anchor. Oh yea, I ordered a 6.5x20x40 Leupold to take its place. | |||
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| one of us |
Why, you ask? Short and sweet; Clarity, Customer Service, and American Made. Need I say more? Good luck and good shooting | |||
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| <Mike Anderson> |
Mr./Ms. Buell, where are you getting your prices for the Zeiss Conquest? I'm not against Zeiss or any other euro, they just don't usually have what I'm looking for in power. Where is their 6-20 or 6-24x. Zeiss doesn't have one that I see. So its the higher end euro's which are 100's more than the Leupold I'm happy with so WHY? should I spend the extra cash. I see your a student from your profile, some advice, I hope its Law the way you like to argue! | ||
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Mike A- 399.99 is what every place I have seen selling the conquest are asking. I do not believe there is a large enough market in europe for the large end power scopes, so they don't make them. BR shooting isnt popular in europe like it is here. The Leupolds are a good scope, and they serve many people well. Just have to find what scope BEST fits your needs, your likes and dislikes then go from there. I am actaully getting into custom rifle making. I will be moving to Austria to go to school in a few months.... I dont but into the idea that just because the european scopes cost more, and your Leupolds work fine, then the European scopes are not worth it. I doubt anybody here in any respectable numbers would not spend several thousand on a custom rifle if they had the money... Obvisouly most people on this thread do not see the European scopes as "worth it", but then they would buy a custom rifle. Wouldnt a Savage work for 99% of the people out there? So why is there even a custom gun market? You could, technically, take a peice of PVC pipe, a peice of wire and some strong tape and make a sight that will work, but I have never seen anyone using such a device... Its all relavent, no? | |||
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quote: Ray I know you like to keep it simple but this statement is so breathtaking in it's across the board condemnation of European scopes it's allmost funny. Anyhow not all markets are created equal here are the best discounted prices in �UK for 6x42s is all anyone needs.If your rings can't grip any or one of these scopes then they're not rings that should be on a rifle. Leupold �274 The Hungarian Schmidt is no different to the German one and the Zeiss is not exactly heaps more. I get subsidised lunches but if you reckon �2.50 for lunch it takes a month of home made sandwiches to get a Zeiss over a Leupold and 2 months for the Swarovski. If you get the minimum wage (�4.50) then it takes 2 days extra work for the Zeiss and 5 days for a Swarovski which probably rules that and the German Schmidt out. This is no attempt to say whether Leupold is any better worse etc just to point out that some of what you say is oversimple and/or incorrect. | |||
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