No I think my analogy,is of bearing. Others would surmise their version of what is best,and try to apply it to me,and that would be foolish.

So it's all give and take.

Do you incorporate Badger bases,with 8x40 screws and a clip slotted receiver and their rings,to compliment your favorite scope?
Do you have Jewell triggers in all your rifles?
Do you have McMillan stocks on all your rifles?
Do all your rifles wear high end replacement barrel blanks,fitted by a true Wizard?
Do you use neck turned cases,in those Hunting barrels?
Do you think Euro glass is better/tougher,than USO?

My point is,chasing "best" is difficult and very expensive. There are blueprints for success,that may not be "best",but yield a very capable end result.

"Best" likely changes faster than a guy can buy it................

You seem to be above buying the cheesy Leupold scopes. You must be doing pretty well for a student to be able to afford top end euro scopes. Do you still have money to spend on hunting trips?

While we sorry Leupold owners are hunting Africa and the like do you sit home and stroke your Swarovskis?

Have you noticed how many world travlers use Leupold? In most cases these hunters could afford any scope the want but they pick leupold time and again.

I will give you a list of hunters who travel the world hunting big game but don't seem to understand how sorry their Leupolds really are:

Saeed

Allen Day

Ray Atkinson

Jack Atcheson

John Barsness

Craig Boddington

Jim Carmichael

The list goes on but I felt this might be a good start, once you have convinced these hunters to switch to the euro scopes I will supply you with more names.

For the time being why don't you post some pictures of all the game you have killed using your top-line optics?

Jason

[This message has been edited by J Brown (edited 02-18-2002).]

Its funny to me how many posts about the �legendary� strength, reliability, and quality of Leupold end with a story about their great warranty and turn around time on damaged and defective scopes.

Leupold offers good value for the money. They know their customer and manufacturer and market to his likes and wants. To me they are an American success story. We need more like them and I wish makers of other products would stand behind them as well as optics makers stand behind theirs. As has been stated Leupold is the industry leader in a field that stands behind their product better then any other I can call to mind at this moment. I salute them.

That doesn�t mean that other makers cannot and do not make as good as or even better product. I suspect other then the coatings on the lenses there has been very little design improvement in scopes in the last 30 years with the possible exception of sealing the tubes and turrets. Yes scopes are better but it is more a matter of degrees then groundbreaking advancement. In fact with the possible exception of laser range finders can anyone come up with revolutionary/groundbreaking advancement in the hunting/shooting sports in the last 100 years?

I submit that vehicles and air travel have changed hunting in the last 100 years then any advancement in the equipment we use.

------------------
Howard
Moses Lake WA
hhomes@homesley.com

Between myself, my old man, and my brother, we have more than 100 collective years on our Leupolds without one single failure. Several of our rifles are heavy recoilers. We live and hunt in the rugged west. Scopes get smacked or fallen on twice in a while out here. The weather is severe- Utah's extremes this year ranged from 117 degrees farenheit(47.2C) to -62 degrees farenheit(-52.2C). This year alone, I hunted deer at 100 degrees farenheit and I have been out coyote hunting several times in -20 degrees farenheit. OUR LEUPOLDS NEVER FAIL. THEY ALWAYS DELIVER. YOU DROP 'EM, YOU DUMP 'EM, IT RAINS, IT SNOWS, IT COOKS, IT FREEZES, AND YOU'RE STILL IN BUSINESS.

One time I thought I had broken a Leupold (how silly of me, it was a bad base).

You can say what you want to about "optical quality", about your interpretation of "scope perfection", but as soon as you open your pie hole and begin inferring that Leupold is a marginal product, you have shown conclusively that you know NOTHING about Leupold scopes.

P.S. My Vari-X 3's (40MM) allow me to easily see and identify the necessary attributes of game well before and after legal shooting hours out here, so don't try to perpetuate the "ten extra minutes of light" argument. I own a Conquest as well, and while a little TEENY bit (almost imperceptibly) clearer, it is not vastly superior to the X III's(sorry again, euros). And being less than two years on the market, I frankly don't trust it yet. When it comes down to do or die, I take a rifle with a Vari-X III on it, because I know it won't fail.

Who was it that commented earlier about how the names mentioned were mostly those of shooters and not of hunters? Sorry to say it, bud, but the shooters require a higher level of quality and precision than the hunters, so your point is lost. Completely.

Who was it that made the blanket statement that German engineering was superior to American Engineering? And the idea that European equipment doesn't need warranties to sell because its inherent quality is enough? Do you Europeans remember the Merkur automobile line (LOL). Or how about the current Volkswagen line- the longest warranties in the industry because their reputation for quality is so poor (although getting better, LOL!!).

Quality in design and engineering is company-specific, not country specific, you elitist scumbags. I don't give a squat where they grind a lens! I demand extreme performance, period.

I happily buy used/abused Leupold glass. After purchase I send it to the factory for inspection. They disassemble it,fix anything that might be "weird" and send it back to me.

That solely for my own piece of mind,because I don't know the history of every glass I buy. For the meager cost of shipping,it is a shrewd investment,in my opinion.

Having never failed one,that is the only opportunity I've used their warranty service. That service was courteous,quick and cost me nothing excepting shipping.

Strikes me as odd,that a company that has the best warranty in the business,is somehow deemed shitty because of it.

As I mentioned prior,it would be comforting to me,if ALL Manufaturers offered like service with no questions asked. I've been jerked around with so many other products,by so many others Manufacturers,that a no questions asked/no paperwork approach,is both appreciated and refreshing.

I know what I like and why.............

The world of hunting extends beyond accuratereloading.com and who you know from reading magazines.... We could both go on listing famous hunters, and I would likely list people from other then the US- they are more likely to not be using Leupolds.

For many peoples purposes Leupolds will work for them, but maybe not for everyone. I guess according to the guy who called me an "elitist scumbag" anyone who doesnt fall into the category of loving american style of hunting is elitist?

Is an extra 2-3 hundred for a scope really going to foil your plans for an African safari? When the total cost of the hunt runs into the multiple thousands, or even tens of thousands?

World travelers from where? The US? Go look at some German hunting consultants sites and see what type of gear their hunters are using....

How well do you know Boddington. Yes he has a few guns with Leupolds. What scope did he use on his last Bighorn hunt? A rifles inc in 300 weatherby and a Leica scope. He does not use Leupold exlusively, infact he likely has more European scopes then american scopes...

I do not have a way to post pictures of mine on this forum...

Bigstick-

You are the one using your rifles, not me, so you can use whatever you want.

BTW I wouldnt use a synthetic stocked rifle either

Howard- You are exactly correct. Leupolds service department and marketing department do not work for free....

Hell if I actually bought a Leupold scope I would rather expect it to come with a warranty becuase of its breaking ability.

I have read so many times on here of people telling about their great Leu's and how they broke, the service department fixed it up in short order, and they were good to go...

With Leupold fixing so many of their scopes they should be good at it by now...

Wapi-T:

What are you trying to say, exactly? You just admitted your German scope is brighter then your Leupolds, but that you are affraid to use it. If you arnt even willing to use something dont try and talk about it...

The point Jagermeister was making is that competetive shooters are not going to subject their guns to the same level of intensity hunters do. Therefore, saying Leupolds are good becuase competetive shooters do is crap. I shoot trap with people that shoot 14 thousand dollar guns. Sometimes even into the hundreds of thousands for a single gun. I see breakages in guns that cost thousands of dollars all the time. These are guns that are kept in a case all day, cleaning after each outing, and are treated like children. People have been using remington 870s to hunt with for many years without problems. I myself have had more problems with my trap gun that cost 4-5 times as much as my 870... Your point about competetive shooting is gone...

Furthermore your comment about German engineering is dumb. When you get to the cream of the crop American designs fall below the Germans... Talking about baseline companies- there are bad ones everywhere... My sisters Mustang, bought new in 2001, has been back to be fixed 4 times for warranty problems, and is one problem away from getting the title of a lemon car...

There isnt a single American luxury car maker that can beat the reputation of Mercedes. It is not unusual for people to buy older German cars with 150,000 miles and get another 150,000 out of them with ease...I know a guy selling a mercedes with 388,000 thousand miles on it...

I would bet you that if we took every german technical company and compared their work with that of the US the Germans would win. It has almost always been that way and always will be.

Why dont you find out who makes the nearly all the commerical espresso and cappiccino makers you see in coffee joints these days. Way over 90% are Italian. Quality companies are country specific, not all of them but most...

German engineering is light-years ahead of American, maybe because Germany is an older country...I don't know for sure..it just is so. WHo invented the airbag, do you know? Not the Americans, I'll tell you that--so I've narrowed it down a bit and hopefully you know what I'm getting at.

Why do you think AMErican special forces use so many GERman guns? they're the best: HK,for instance, is a popular rifle (and the most accurate semi-auto rifle in the world)...guess what kind of scope they rig it up with? Hensoldt, my boy!..a fine german optik.

What kind of rifles do we see in the Olympics? The most widely used is the Anschutz, followed by Feinwerkbau, also German. I know Beeman has a few followers, but they are bound in a partnership to Feinwerkbau when it comes to their competitive rifles.

The most sought-after items of the world generally tend come from Germany (and Italy and other Euro nations like the ones in Scandinavia)--face the facts, you cannot refute this anymore. Wapi-T, why don't you realize that maybe teh Leupolds aren't the end-all, be-all of scopes. Use your Zeiss a bit and I know you'll change you mind.

In Europe, it's virtually unheard-of to use Leupold, so if they're the best or the best value-wise, why haven't the Euros caught onto them. THe Leupold LPS, designed for the Euro markets isn't even used over there, and do you know why? It's because they could never compare to the worst German scope!

There is zero doubt the Germans can and do make quality gear. Much of it works of art. Their Craftsmanship is legendary and shouldn't be slighted...............

You are exactly right.

We should not buy a scope because it will do. There are a lot of things that will do...Many European hunters share in a philosophy that their gear and equipment is a reflection of them selves and their personality. This is why many European hunter shoot engraved guns. It is a common practice to engrave a gun with the animal the gun is going to be used on. German hunters take great pride in their gear. I too share in this philosophy.

I will admit that I am not in the position to be buying exspensive scopes, as I am a student. In time all my rifles will have European scopes. I am moving to �sterreich in June of this year for school. I have to put my priorities in order.

There is no doubt that Leupolds are good scopes, but they just dont do it for me. I like the syling of Euro scopes, the the type of rifles I like are more suited to Euro scopes. I dont think Leupold makes a scope with a under rail for a german mount.

I am a lover of quality goods, and I try to buy the best things that I can. I dont see any reason for people not to do this. I couldnt see myself settling for something that falls short of the rest. Just not me...

Mike

You took me out of context. But the bottom line remains the same. You must make yourself happy,as noone else can do it for you.

Leupold is my scope of choice..........

quote:

---

Originally posted by Buell:
I couldnt see myself settling for something that falls short of the rest. Just not me...

---

As a long time Zeiss owner and, recently, the owner of his first Leupold, I find your comment insulting. Leupold makes a fine scope and is certainly not a compromise piece of equipment.

Your statement is more indicative of your personal opinion than that of reality. You seem to be caught up in a "German quality is best" kind of thing. German quality can be exceptional, yet, like anything else, the generalisation is not without exception.

American engineering can be incredible and, as a general rule, American manufacturers service their wares better than most.

~Holmes

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jagermiester:

German engineering is light-years ahead of American, maybe because Germany is an older country...I don't know for sure..it just is so.

Why do you think AMErican special forces use so many GERman guns? they're the best: HK,for instance, is a popular rifle (and the most accurate semi-auto rifle in the world)...guess what kind of scope they rig it up with? Hensoldt, my boy!..a fine german optik.

[/B]

---

You are killing me, Jagermeister. Where is the German equivalent of the Stealth Bomber, Stealth Fighter, Boeing 777, or Space Shuttle? What German manufacturing giant is creating the high-tech computer components the world can't live without? To say that German engineering is "light years" ahead of American engineering is asinine. Rethink your stance. A riflescope is NOT a marvel of engineering. It is comparatively simple.

Why do you think America's Elite force uses American rifles AND scopes for critical long range Sniper duty? Yes, that would be Remington 700 actions, Winchester triggerguards and floorplates, McMillan stocks, and Unertl scopes. Oh, lets not forget the big boy...The Barret Firearms .50BMG with Unertl scope. See, where precision, accuracy, and durability are involved, its all American. Where simply throwing lead is involved, we defer to the Germans.

Now on to Buell: I cannot dispute that Germany makes a fine automobile in the Mercedes Benz. However, Germany doesn't build a single truck that could jerk the skin off a fresh custard. Our respective markets simply demand different products, and we each do best in the products our markets demand respectively.

Finally, I think it is difficult to dispute that both Zeiss and Swarovski make better products at the top end than does Leupold. But alas, when comparing products in the same price range, you can't just call out a champion. Leupold makes some great stuff in the $500 range, as does Zeiss. But they are competitive in function, quality, and features, all preferences aside.

As far as the special forces go, when it comes to the close quarters guns they are most often some form the mp5 HK. Many groups are not intergrating HK PSG-1's which are the most accurate semi autos in the world into their regiment for sniper rifles..

Did you know the M40A2 only has to shoot 1MOA before it can be deemed acceptable? American precision? And the damn thing weighs close to 15LBS...

The army is now using Hk USP pistols into their elite teams.

Slowly but surely German guns are replacing the American guns...

Did you know the m60 is a spin off of the german MG42?

Those unertl scopes are german technology. John was tought in german engineering..

The mercedes g wagon can climb the highest grade of any passenger vehicle in the world. Up to 90% to be exact.

The Us army is going to start replacing their light armor vehicles with european made ones. They recently aquired several different models from many european countries for trial. They arnt even looking at an American made one...

The Anschutz T-bolt action virtually revolutionized the biathlon events. Did you know a norwegian just became one of the few people in the world to win 3 strait gold medals. He got them in the biathlon using a t-bolt actioned .22... Virtually every biathlete uses a t-bolt... In the world of olympic shooting events european guns win gold every time, well close to 99%...

Equipment alone cannot win a war. It takes critical thinking and good leaders... Why was it that our Sherman tank rounds bounced off the far more advanced german tanks? I would guarantee you that if Germany would have been in the same strenth as they were in 1940 as they were in 1944 allies would not have won...

Holmes-

If thats insulting to you so be it...

Wapi-T:

There are places out there selling Swaro scopes for very good deals. There is a guy on Gunsamerica.com selling a brandnew Swaro 3x9x40 scope for less then 600, into your 500 price range. Khales are even less then the Swaros, and they are owned by the same company...

You can get a docter optik scope which is owned by the Carl Jena company (zeiss) for 299... same optiks as the Zeiss...

You missed my point which is simply that Leupold scopes are used by hunters who are in-the-know. I never said these hunters use Leupold exclusively. If the euro scopes are so superior way do these hunters use Leupolds at all?

Good point on the Leica scope Boddington used on the sheep hunt. Do you realize Leupold made those scopes for Leica? If Leupold makes such fragile scopes why would Boddington use a scope made by them on a once-in-a-liftime bighorn hunt in the deep back country?

If euro scopes are so much better than Leupolds why don't guys like Boddington who own both see this HUGE difference and hunt with euro scopes exclusively?

Owning euro scopes does not make you an elitist scumbag but if owning these scopes makes you feel somehow better than the rest of us it does make you an idiot.

Don't let owning euro scopes inflate your ego. If you feel better buying euro scopes then by all means go for it. If you feel your ego begin to grow just think about the trophies you have taken and the places you have hunted and compare that to the exploits of leupold owners such as Saeed. This should bring you back down to earth.

Jason

For all of you Europeans: Don't even try to argue Leupold quality with Americans. You'd have as much luck in an argument about Harley-Davidson!!

"As far as the special forces go, when it comes to the close quarters guns they are most often some form the mp5 HK. Many groups are now intergrating HK PSG-1's which are the most accurate semi autos in the world into their regiment for sniper rifles..

Slowly but surely German guns are replacing the American guns..."

Buell,
As William F. Buckley said: "I would take you seriously but it would be an insult to your intelligence."
Matt.

As I said before you can name all the people you want who use Leupolds. I don't care who or who doesnt use them. On a worldwide basis I would bet there are more people using non US made optics then there is that do...Its merely a "where you are from" deal, and pride in something that comes from where you live...

Yes Leica scopes are made by Leupold. The lenses and internal parts were made by Leica, though. Similar to the Zeiss Conquest. Lenses and internal parts made in Germany, scope put together here....

Owning a euro scope has nothing to do with ego. Do you feel an ego when you see someone with a tasco? Why would I feel one using a german scope? Why do people buy scopes becuase they are made in the US, as some peolpe have already admitted to on here? Isnt that a bit of an ego?

Your comment about the places I have been to hunting is completely erronious. I doubt Saeed would go broke buying a German scope. He goes on 21 day safaris. The difference in price between the two scopes is what, 1/2 a daily fee? I cannot speak for Saeed, nor his reasoning for using a lot of Leupolds, but that is up to him...

There is a lot of bad feelings it seems between the US and many europeans. Go onto the political forum for a while and you will see it. There is such a huge atmosphere within the US of buying US products I can easily see why more people do not use European scopes... Its a national pride matter. It has nothing to do with the quality of the scope... Leupold is likely the best US maker that sells scopes with any great deal of quantity, and therefore people stick with them no matter what. They will never admit to it, but its obvious..

Same reason why European guns do not sell over here. How many people do you know that shoot a Blaser, Sauer, or any other big name german makers guns? People here shoot American made guns with American made scopes with American made ammo.... Sako is the most popular european maker in the US and they practically had to sell out traditional european gun design to do it... Look at the sig shr90... the same price as a new rem bdl. The sig has the ability to change barrels quickly, meaning you could own several different barrels for one action and swap them at will... Yet the sales suck... People are afraid to buy anything but American products... that is the fact of the matter...

the LPS was designed to compete with the Euro scopes in Europe.

Americans most often do not like the 30MM tubes, which is what the LPS has. The Euro scopes are aval with a 1in tube.

You are blowing the "Buy American" thing way out of proportion. Of my bolt action hunting rifles none are made in the US. All my binoculars are Ziess and Leica. I could care less weather a product is made in the US or Europe, I simply buy what I feel is best for the job at hand.

If Leupold has a reputation for building fragile scopes why would Leica contract the building of their rifle scopes out to them?

Jason

Tell me where i have said Leupolds are fragile.

Do you maybe think there is a reason Leica isnt selling rifle scopes anymore?

Maybe they realized their mistake?

I have said that Leupolds are good scopes. My main point has been for the price difference between a Leupold and a Euro scope there isnt a big enough reason to stick with Leupolds...

jbrown

The european scope makers are into hunting scopes, not to please everyone who may want to buy a scope for every purpose... While many of the Euro scope makers do not offer different finishes as does Leupold. They are sort of in between glossy and matte...

I would rather have a company focusing on making just a few types of scopes then making "over 60" types of scopes. That way quality control is better as is product development...

[This message has been edited by Buell (edited 02-19-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Buell:
The Us army is going to start replacing their light armor vehicles with european made ones. They recently aquired several different models from many european countries for trial. They arnt even looking at an American made one...

---

And if you think that has to do with quality and not UN or some other type politics you are fooling yourself.

------------------
Howard
Moses Lake WA
hhomes@homesley.com

I don't think anyone denies the quality of SOME Eurpoean engineering. Obviously the Glaendelwagon (sp?) is a great truck just like the Anschutz 1827 Fortner is a great rifle and SOME Swarovski or Zeiss models are great scopes. BUT . . . I wont pay $80,000 US for a g-wagon when my 1990 Ford Bronco(paid $6K five years ago) gets me to the hunting area with ease . . . I similarly won't pay $2000 US for an 1827 Fortner when my Ruger 10/22 ($129 brand new) and I can dust a runnning rabbit with ease and I won't pay $1000 US for top shelf Zeiss or Swarovski glass when all I need is an indestructable 2.5x Leupold ($250 US from Premier Reticles) on my .416 Rem. Model 70 to bring down the big stuff. I could afford a better car, better guns and marginally better scopes as I suspect most people here could but I would much rather go hunting and live with the vinyl interior on the Bronco, the birch stock on the Ruger and the . . . the . . . the . . . well shit I still can't think of anything wrong with the Leupold!

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

European scopes are too heavy and slip in the rings for the most part..and they are over engineered..
Leupold customer service is the best there is plain and simple....

I don't base my opinnions on theroy or written propoganda, simply on years of experience in the field and hard hard use.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

From my EU point of view, I can agree with you. Leupold scope are the best quality for the price, but I wouldn't compare these scopes with EU scopes.

I can compare Nightforce scopes with EU scopes. Same weight,... IMHO same quality.

I own a Leupold 24X40 Vari III and I'm very happy with this scope. On my Paker-Hale in .308 Win for bench rest shooting.

For my hunting rifles I prefer Swarovsky scope.

For my future bench rest shooting rifle 338/378 I'd prefer a Nightforce NXS scope.

For me the most important thing regarding scopes US/Japan/EU, is the users. If a guy is happy with a Pentax scope, I can agree with him. I'm happy with a Tasco scope 4X32 on my lever rifle in 30/30. This Tasco scope is poor quality, I know it but for my 30/30 it is enough.

P.S. if you have good scope mounts the scope can't slip.

------------------
BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
------------------------
BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

I'm not even sure I WANT a G-Wagon (interior is a bit plush for me) . . . Now if we were talking Unimog . . . I have the desire AND use for one of those!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jagermiester:
[B] Certanly, if the German economy was shaped more like that of the US, and was funded as heavily. it would rise to the top B]

---

By that you mean; I am sure that if Germany's government was less funded and the people had more of their own money to invest in a manner of their own choosing Germany would be more the equal of America. In short you are saying that Germany needs to be more capitalistic and less socialist right?

------------------
Howard
Moses Lake WA
hhomes@homesley.com

Look at Mer- Benz. It is certainly a fine vehicle. But not necessary for me to have one to go back and forth to work. My Ford F250 works just fine. And I am quite satisfied with it.

Look at Zeiss and other Euro scopes . They are excellent scopes. One day I plan on owning one. But for me to put out a couple of hundred dollars more for a scope to put on a Marlin 30-30 is not appealing to me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the Euro scopes have recently tried to be more competitive with their pricing. At one time there was a BIG price difference between them and American scopes.

This thread reminds me of the post about 400 yard shots are dumb. My opinion verses your opinion. And I am right and you are wrong.

FWIW- Those who want the best in everything. I will be expecting you to be using the J36 hunting bullet from Lost River Ballistics. It is probably the "best". If you are using a cheaper bullet that performs adequate, then why not step up and buy the "best" you can . That is your argument for European scopes.

------------------
Andrew V. McGee

You are wrong about the weight issue. The scopes today are about the same as Leupolds. The 3.5x10x40 Leupold X3 is heaver then the Sawaro Aline 3x10x42... Most of the 1In tubed scopes are within 0-2 ounces of eachother. Ofcourse if you compare the 30mm Euro scopes they are going to be heavier then the Leupolds... But that would be like comparing the 30MM LPS to the one inch euro scopes...

I do not think there is anything in the world that can be deemed indestructible. Even the top euro scopes can and do break...

Granted many people are served well by Leupold scopes. I have said on more then one occasion they are a good scope. What my point has been that it is possible for many people to spend an extra 100-200 dollars at most and get a much clearer and brighter scope... That is my beef...Many people buy 10,000 dollar custom rifles and but cheap scopes on them. Doesnt make sense to me...

Guns are a completely different matter in my book. I don't think a 30,000 dollar gun will perform any better then a 3,000 dollar one will. All it takes is a little know how and common sense. Most of what you pay for in the very exspensive guns is the name and the wood on the gun. There is a H&H add that even goes as far as to say its all about the pedigree of the gun... I have an old Husqvarna commercial mauser that has never failed to go off, I like the gun, and it works for me. When I pull the trigger the gun goes off. Its not like if you buy a 400 dollar 3006 a 3006 rifle that cost 5000 is going to kill the animal better. The differnce a 300 and a 1000 scope makes on seeing game and shooting is there. What seperates guns from scopes in comparison to eachother is that we are obviously comparing two capable scopes, but we are not say comparing a tasco to a Schmidt and Bender on a 458 Lott. Obviously the cheap tasco would be falling apart from the lotts recoil over time... The tasco is not at the level of working each time...

Ray-

The term over engineered is way over used. Why is it that when the European scope makers come out with something new, in a couple of years it will be on the American and Japanese scopes... Such as the illuminated reticle, side focus knobs, ect...

Howard-

I think what Jager meant was that the europeans are more into designing things used in everyday life, such as rifles, cars, ect...

They do not put so much effort into superfiscial objects....

Germany does not need to be more capitalistic. They have gone through a lot in the last century dealing with their economy. How many times have they had to start over? It was a dived country just a few years ago...

Maybe they are not as rich of a nation becuase they are not into power and $$$ like the US government is....

[This message has been edited by Buell (edited 02-20-2002).]