I see a lot of comments about knee jerking Americans ability to shoot, followed by the poster expelling his world championship shooting and stalking skills..We have all heard this our whole life..

Ive sent hundreds of American hunters to Africa and the 4 corners of the earth. I observed and been reported to as to the results of all these hunts.

I can name the number of hunters who could not shoot on one hand, in my case the gun nuts such as on AR and those who read Jack O'Connor, you know them are for the most part excellent clients and good shots..The stories of the miserable are abundant, but on average it seems to me they are about say 2% of the masses. the real gun nuts shoot the best, the country raised shooters next, and the metros that practice are good, the ones that don't seem to fall into that 2%...but isn't that the way it is in any sport, the winners, the contenders and the losers.

ray you have to read the internet more - then you would know that everyone on it is way past expert and able to shoot the eyes out of fly at 1000 meters

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
ray you have to read the internet more - then you would know that everyone on it is way past expert and able to shoot the eyes out of fly at 1000 meters

I always go for the hairs on a gnats ass at 1,000.

Most of my friends will vouch for me.....

I couldn't punch holes in a barn wall if you locked me inside

The range has taught me that in the best shooting position I could hope for while hunting, I'm good out to about 400..then I fall apart real quick.

I had an interesting discussion with my PH in Africa about clients shooting skills. He has had clients from all over the world and thought that some Americans were pretty fair shots.
In his own words he had never had anyone from France that could shoot.

I was a professional hunting guide, focusing mainly on buffalo and other bovines, for more than twelve years.
We hosted hunters from many different countries.

In general I found American hunters very well prepared for the hunt, both in terms of equipment and their ability to use it.
Most, the majority, of my American hunters shot very, very well, as good, if not better, than expected or required.

That generalized statement can and is said to be true of hunters from ANY country.

The biggest problem hunters (from ALL countries) had with our hunts was acclimatizing to the sting of our Tropical Sun, and the midday temps. Doing the miles required to track/locate buff in Australia's Top End can be hot and hard work. The Sun in Australia burns way hotter than most people are prepared for. Sensible hunting at appropriate times and proper people managing took care of most of that.

As far as my exposure/experience has taught me American hunters (generalizing) shoot as good, if not better, than (generalized) most hunters from most other countries.
Individual examples will be exceptions to the rule.

I have heard that about France many times. Not sure what the deal is.

My African PH talked more about the French's poor social skills with Spain being a very close second.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
My African PH talked more about the French's poor social skills with Spain being a very close second.

Mine mentioned that too.
We surmised that some Euro countries have such stringent gun laws that a lot of people from those countries don't own, shoot or handle firearms except very rarely.
We found no excuse for their behavior!

To me the problems I see, have seen, with my "Fellow Uhmericans" as far as shooting is concerned, if it is at the range/off the bench, they can be great.

Put them in the field, off hand or even a make shift rest at unknown ranges, and change paper or metal into hair on a living target and they can get poor really quick.

CH,
Do you suppose it could be that the average American has access to shooting ranges, but not to areas where they can work on their field skills? Some of us can go for a walk in the woods, desert or other areas, but many are city bound and cannot walk around and shoot at rocks, stumps, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
CH,
Do you suppose it could be that the average American has access to shooting ranges, but not to areas where they can work on their field skills? Some of us can go for a walk in the woods, desert or other areas, but many are city bound and cannot walk around and shoot at rocks, stumps, etc.

Impala:

For long range practice, this is the best. I shoot at light colored rocks at long range every week. I have a few choice ones painted black with an orange circle, but my .300/.338 LR guns leave a good splash on a rock past 1000 yards. I do this once a week and shoot with F class shooters once a week at 500 yards. My third weekly shooting practice is to shoot my handguns, shotguns, and rifle offhand/sticks up to 200 yards.

You don't have to have a gun in your hands to practice estimating distances. Go for a walk in the park or along a golf course or around the block. Sight something at a distance and guess how far away it is. Then pace it off. The more you do it, the better you'll get. And the exercise will do you good.
Get a full sized deer target and set it up. See what it looks like at ??? distance. Back off to @250 yards and see what power setting your scope has to be on for the plex to bracket the chest of the deer.
Just like dry firing, there's a whole bunch of stuff you can do to improve your skills without going "bang".

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
CH,
Do you suppose it could be that the average American has access to shooting ranges, but not to areas where they can work on their field skills? Some of us can go for a walk in the woods, desert or other areas, but many are city bound and cannot walk around and shoot at rocks, stumps, etc.

Impala:

For long range practice, this is the best. I shoot at light colored rocks at long range every week. I have a few choice ones painted black with an orange circle, but my .300/.338 LR guns leave a good splash on a rock past 1000 yards. I do this once a week and shoot with F class shooters once a week at 500 yards. My third weekly shooting practice is to shoot my handguns, shotguns, and rifle offhand/sticks up to 200 yards.

This is what I do as well. Now that I am in "Europe again", I'll imagine it in my head and dream of the days in the Mojave with nothing but 1400 yards of empty ground and the rock wars.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
You don't have to have a gun in your hands to practice estimating distances. Go for a walk in the park or along a golf course or around the block. Sight something at a distance and guess how far away it is. Then pace it off. The more you do it, the better you'll get. And the exercise will do you good.
Get a full sized deer target and set it up. See what it looks like at ??? distance. Back off to @250 yards and see what power setting your scope has to be on for the plex to bracket the chest of the deer.
Just like dry firing, there's a whole bunch of stuff you can do to improve your skills without going "bang".

Except learning to shoot in the wind. Actually, IMO, the best "non-shooting" exercise is dry firing.

quote:

CH,
Do you suppose it could be that the average American has access to shooting ranges, but not to areas where they can work on their field skills? Some of us can go for a walk in the woods, desert or other areas, but many are city bound and cannot walk around and shoot at rocks, stumps, etc.

That might be possible, but from what I have seen it has been more of a situation of relying on technology to make up for a lack of skills.

As another response cited, you do not have to have a gun in your hand to learn how to estimate range. I am not a big believer in rangefinders, but if a person wants to use one, go out and guess how far an object is, before using the Range Finder, that will allow a person to develop the ability to judge distance.

The one thing that many or most cannot try is learning how to shoot offhand and from various positions and rests when limited to Public Ranges.

Shotgunners have the ability to do such on a Sporting Clays course, rifle hunters are not so fortunate.

Some people are fortunate enough to have a place to shoot, practice ranging by sight and have rangefinders and use them. Some hunting situations there is no need for a rangefinder but I see nothing wrong with rangefinders, I know some of you think "gimmick" however back in the day scopes were a "gimmick" and look at us now....
I'll take a certain amount of technology so long as it doesn't complicate things.
I like looking at deer or elk and guessing "how far" then pushing the rangefinder button on my Leica 10x42's and knowing I was close.
From zero to 270 yards I don't care what the range is, the target is in range and my bullet will strike 2" high or 2" low of my point of aim. Further targets I want to know the range.
I personally feel anything you can do to make you a better shot then do it, if that means better scope, rangefinder, practice, work on your rifle and trigger whatever it takes.

From my own experiences shooting the very best practice that can be had is using the big bore hunting rifles and ammo in the prairie dog fields. Using the BIG guns you can sure end up badly beaten in a hurry. Like using Dad's .375 with 300gr.

I used to use the '06 with 110's by the hundreds every chance I got. nearly always prone, if not, leaning over a car/truck.

Randall has me pegged with off hand. I've always been taught to never ever shoot at game without a rest of some kind. Now that I'm crippled up, getting prone at all is a real challenge. Even worse is getting up afterwards. I need a prop to climb up just to get back on my feet. Even if it's another person to use for an anchor.

I've been thinking seriously of making a shooting tripod like Saeed's guys carry around. So far it's just been one of the hundreds of plans to do when I get to it.

George

I'll never forget the time I shot an Nyala offhand at about 35 yards or so. My PH was shocked that I didn't wait for him to set up the sticks. Nyala runs about 15 yards and flops over dead. PH asks "Why didn't you wait for the sticks?" I replied that it was an easy, close shot. PH tells me "most hunters can't shoot offhand even that close."

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
I'll never forget the time I shot an Nyala offhand at about 35 yards or so. My PH was shocked that I didn't wait for him to set up the sticks. Nyala runs about 15 yards and flops over dead. PH asks "Why didn't you wait for the sticks?" I replied that it was an easy, close shot. PH tells me "most hunters can't shoot offhand even that close."

I shot a B&C class moose in the Yukon at 285 yards shooting sitting with my sling. My guide said, "I have never seen anyone do that before."

I said, "What, shoot a moose at 285 yards?"

He said, "No, shoot using a sling like that instead of getting a rest."

I often wonder how many animals are lost due to guys dickdancing with rests, bipods, sticks, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


He said, "No, shoot using a sling like that instead of getting a rest."
.

That has got to be one of my favorite field "rests" I practice shooting gongs at my range at various ranges using that technique, sitting with a sling.
I noticed though that some people have a hard time learning that position, my kids don't like it.
I feel like the more tricks you have up your sleeve the better field shot you can be.
It is an art to hike, spot game and drop to some form of field shooting position before game escapes whether that be sitting with sling or back pack over a log/ rock or any of your favorites. Whatever you are going to do whatever your default is practice it.
For me it took some getting used to to shoot off sticks. As it was about 2/3 of my African game I shot on the sticks, the rest were my "improvised field shooting" rests.

Guys,

In my experience regardless of nationality I think African PH's assume their clients are not very good shots and that they lack the ability to adapt to a shooting position that is most appropriate for the shot presented so they use the sticks everytime. There are quite a few places in Africa when a shot from prone is possible. Each time I've used it the PH has been standing by the set up sticks with a baffled look on his face as they expected I was going to use the sticks. In every case the PH had never seen a client lay on his belly to shoot while on safari. That always seemed weird to me as prone when possible is a position quick to get into, much quicker than sticks and very steady. The one exception was a PH I used in RSA in'15. He hunted the open country of the Cape and used the sticks very sparingly. I know that there are lots of very experienced American hunters that do go to Africa so all I can figure out is that most hunters know the PH is going to want to use the sticks so it must be the way to do it.

Mark

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, some friends and I spent several summers shooting in the silhouette leagues in Sonora, shooting standing up, offhand, without slings at steel animal targets from 100 to 500 meters.

These were 20-round matches, and they had to be fired with hunting rifles weighing under a certain weight (I've forgotten what it was, but heavier rifles are easier to hold steady on target when shooting offhand).

We all wound up shooting 40 rounds or more of centerfire ammo weekly, as well as dry-firing 10 minutes or so every day.

All of us got so we could hit the 100-meter chickens and 200-meter javelinas regularly enough. The challenge was in hitting turkeys at 350 meters and the sheep at 500 meters. Wind definitely was a factor at those distances.

There was a time when I got to thinking I could shoot better than most hunters until my shooting went all to hell and I started flinching. I had to resort to using a .243 instead of my favorite .270.

(The .243 would not knock down the sheep targets, but it made up for it with more hits at the closer ranges.)

Today, my go-to hunting rifle is a 7mm Rem Mag that weighs a tad over 10 pounds with ammo and scope. At age 80, I still can kill a deer offhand at 75-100 yards, but that's my self-imposed limit.

My point is, anyone can learn to shoot a standing deer's vitals while shooting offhand out to 200 yards with enough practice.

Bill Quimby

Hey Bill, didn't you ever shoot in the silhouette league at the Tucson Rod & Gun Club?

I drove down and shot there almost every weekend decades ago. It can be a humbling experience. Used my .264 with 160-gr. RN bullets. I felt pretty good when I finally got my usual scores up to 12-14 each time and once had a 16.

Can't recall her name, but I distinctly remember a chunky sort of gal that always wore a kerchief around her head, a tent dress and shot barefooted. She was good and shot with the "A" group."

This is going to sound funny to most, some may understand what I am talking about, but to me the best way I ever found to test hunters shooting abilities, is jump shooting javelinas in the creosote brush in the Trans-Pecos of west Texas.

The first thing most of them learn is that at 30 yards a javelina, even one that is standing still, it is hard to tell their ass from their head w3hen that scope is on 9 or 12 power!

One of the second lessons is to not set down or lie down for a prone shot in that part of the country, way too many unfriendly types of Flora and Fauna.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
Hey Bill, didn't you ever shoot in the silhouette league at the Tucson Rod & Gun Club?

I drove down and shot there almost every weekend decades ago. It can be a humbling experience. Used my .264 with 160-gr. RN bullets. I felt pretty good when I finally got my usual scores up to 12-14 each time and once had a 16.

Can't recall her name, but I distinctly remember a chunky sort of gal that always wore a kerchief around her head, a tent dress and shot barefooted. She was good and shot with the "A" group."

Tony:

I never shot silhouettes in the U.S., mostly because I had developed a serious problem with flinching by the time the Tucson Rifle Club brought the sport across the line. I also wasn't happy with what the NRA folks were doing to the rules of the game.

I was not alone in that. Roy Dunlap (the gunsmith) and Bob Jensen (an internationally known 1,000-yard competitor)also complained about the changes.

In Mexico, it was a fun sport, celebrated with mariachis, Cuba Libres and barbecoa de cabrito, accompanied with lots of laughter.

The only silhouette match at the Tucson range I attended was the first so-called inaugural international shoot the NRA held out there. One of my friends, Robert "Doug" Campbell, won it. As far as I know, he never shot it again.

Incidentally, Tony, 16x20 is not just great shooting, it's fantastic shooting! Congratulations. I may be wrong, but I think 15x20 was my best-ever score and I won a regional match with it.

Bill Quimby

Six years ago my left shoulder was practically destroyed. The rotator cuff is all but gone and range of motion is very limited so offhand shots are just about impossible.

I do deer ag damage control 'work' and was bummed that my 'career' might be over but that didn't happen. If anything, my shooting has improved considerably because I have to use shooting sticks or some other kind of rest and I will not even consider taking "dicey" shots that I may have attempted before the injury.

Sometimes you do things the right way because there is no other way.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

For long range practice, this is the best. I shoot at light colored rocks at long range every week.

My favorite targets! What better way to become good at spontaneous shooting than to practice it! And that is what hunting is all about, there are no benches in hunting!

As for the Anti-American sentiment, that is everywhere and it is not just confined to criticism of hunters shooting ability. I dont let it bother me though, because I know it is usually deeply rooted in an inferiority complex.

I visit a German forum on occassion. these guys figure a hundred yards is a long shot. I can almost throw rocks that far.

Grizz

Bench rest shooting is fine to sight in a gun, to test fire your loads, but after each session stand up and fire a dozen or so shots off hand at the 100 yard target, try to shoot as fast as your accuracy will allow..Dry fire a lot at home, get familiar with your rifle, it will all come together pretty quick..especially you city dwellers who don't have the time or place to preactic..

I grew up with a gun in my hand, never allowed to shoot with any kind or a rest and to shoot off my hind legs, it was the cowboy way! by golly it worked and Im convienced that if you can shoot well off hand, you can shoot under most any conditions..If I can take a rest I will, but I can't shoot off sticks and none of the PH I hunt with allow me to shoot off sticks, Im still trying but not good at it..prefer to just shoot off hand or with a rock or tree for a rest. Never prone because very little hunting country allows prone shooting and even sitting may not be allowed.

The problem with many foreign shooters is they have laws and an attitude that does not allow them to become good shots. I have had bad luck with Russian, german, Spaniards, and French that shoot poorly, not all but more than enough.
Americans? had about half a dozen, 4 of which t simply couldn't shoot and admitted it..so we allowed for that and they still got their game. The two worst shots I ever had came off AR, but no longer post here..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bench rest shooting is fine to sight in a gun, to test fire your loads, but after each session stand up and fire a dozen or so shots off hand at the 100 yard target, try to shoot as fast as your accuracy will allow..Dry fire a lot at home, get familiar with your rifle, it will all come together pretty quick..especially you city dwellers who don't have the time or place to preactic..

I grew up with a gun in my hand, never allowed to shoot with any kind or a rest and to shoot off my hind legs, it was the cowboy way! by golly it worked and Im convienced that if you can shoot well off hand, you can shoot under most any conditions..If I can take a rest I will, but I can't shoot off sticks and none of the PH I hunt with allow me to shoot off sticks, Im still trying but not good at it..prefer to just shoot off hand or with a rock or tree for a rest. Never prone because very little hunting country allows prone shooting and even sitting may not be allowed.

The problem with many foreign shooters is they have laws and an attitude that does not allow them to become good shots. I have had bad luck with Russian, german, Spaniards, and French that shoot poorly, not all but more than enough.
Americans? had about half a dozen, 4 of which t simply couldn't shoot and admitted it..so we allowed for that and they still got their game. The two worst shots I ever had came off AR, but no longer post here..

Ray, I agree if you shoot offhand you can shoot just about any position. It doesn't teach you to shoot in the wind obviously. As for the sticks, I feel more comfortable at 300 yards standing with sticks than standing at 100 without them.

Many shooters could improve their offhand shooting accuracy if they would keep their lightweight rifles in the back of their safes and forget that a rifle's stock continues past the action.

The proper stance for offhand shooting for a right-handed shooter is to stand with both feet a comfortable distance apart at a 90-degree angle on the line to the target. The left elbow should rest on the left hip, and the left hand should be close to the right hand with its finger on the trigger.

Short-armed shooters may have to rest their rifle on their knuckles or fingertips of their left hand, but my arms allow me to LIGHTLY grip a bolt-action rifle's magazine area.

I know of no way to hold a rifle steady by jamming the rifle into your right shoulder with your left hand outstretched as most shooters do when shooting offhand. In fact, there really is no way to keep a barrel from wiggling when shooting offhand.

The trick is to minimize the wiggle and make it work for the shooter.

When I shot silhouettes 50 years ago, I purposely encouraged a slow and small circular wiggle that put the target at the bottom of the wiggle, then concentrated on starting my trigger squeeze at the top of the smallest wiggle I could muster.

Anyone who spends five or ten minutes a day dry firing and practicing this shooting stance should be able to hit a paper plate at 100 yards nearly every time within a month.

Just don't try it with your .458 Lott.

Bill Quimby

I've never claimed to be the worlds best shot, but I can hold my own in the field (mostly because I know my limits). When I first started hunting the thing I had to overcome was "buck fever".

When I got old enough dad got me a BB gun. I set up a range in the basement where I hung a beer can and shot until I had cut it in half, then hung another and started over. So even in the city I had practice. I was also turned loose at the cabin or grandma's farm to shoot frogs and sparrows. I had to teach myself how to shoot and learn about shooting positions on my own.

My kids are getting better training than I had and if you have children I'll make the suggestion that you do the same. Look into youth smallbore programs in your area. Winchester and the NRA support these programs along with local clubs. My kids shoot one night a week for about six months per year. My daughter just started working on her Distinguished Expert badge. The best part is that all rifles, ammo, targets, scopes, mats, shooting jackets, slings, gloves, boots, and instructors are provided free of charge.

I've heard it said that guides (PH's) rate Americans as overall good shots but we take too long to actually shoot. Watching people myself I think that is a pretty fair assessment. Just watch one of the hunting shows on tv and invariably the guide points to an animal and the hunter spends an incredible amount of time fiddling with his rifle or a rest as the animal walks away.

It takes training to condition yourself to see the target, quickly find the nearest rest or position, aim and get the shot off. This is something that can't be learned at a shooting range. It has to be done by in the field practice.

I don't pretend to be the worlds greatest shot but I guess I learned at a young age with a BB gun and later a .22 rim fire. We had miles of forest to roam and just about everything was fair game when I was a kid. I hate to admit it today but I've probably shot hundreds of birds in my youth of every kind. None of them would sit for long once they saw you within the range of my BB gun. It was also excellent stalking practice since everything eats a small song bird so they they are always watching. Crows in and open field took some belly crawling and patience to get. Once I had a .22 the crows started to take a beating. I got good enough at it my friend and I were hired by a local blueberry farmer to keep the birds out of his bushes. If I remember right he payed us a nickel a bird. That really kept us in BB's for a long time. So much for my professional hunting career!

Point is anyone who hunts needs to do something to practice how you hunt. Making holes in paper at a range isn't enough.

Really good comments. I have noticed that people that do or have done a good bit of wing shooting are faster to acquire the target/game and shoot than those that haven't.

I have rarely tried shots at running game, but the few I have taken and been successful on were the ones where I basically forgot I was using a rifle and reacted as if I was shooting at a dove.

I have found over the years that the longer I set and look at something thru the scope or over iron sights, the more I tighten up and the more apt I am to make a bad shot.

One of the best unknown secrets to running shots it the double set triggers!! however Im not all that crazy about them on most of my hunting rifles..with the double set trigger, you can swing past the animal and touch the trigger and bang, it works great for me! and worth a try for everyone.

AnotherAZ,
If somethings 300 yards away I agree, but at 300 I can almost always if not always find a rock or tree for a rest..Off hand shooting, including running shots for me is limited to about 200 yards max and prefer closer if possible..Long range shooting is a soft jacket over a big rock that gives me bench rest ability. I also like to Lazer shots over 200 yards if possible..Most of the time you have enough time to set up a shot at 300 yards to one degree or another..if not, then pass on it is my take on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
One of the best unknown secrets to running shots it the double set triggers!! however Im not all that crazy about them on most of my hunting rifles..with the double set trigger, you can swing past the animal and touch the trigger and bang, it works great for me! and worth a try for everyone.

AnotherAZ,
If somethings 300 yards away I agree, but at 300 I can almost always if not always find a rock or tree for a rest..Off hand shooting, including running shots for me is limited to about 200 yards max and prefer closer if possible..Long range shooting is a soft jacket over a big rock that gives me bench rest ability. I also like to Lazer shots over 200 yards if possible..Most of the time you have enough time to set up a shot at 300 yards to one degree or another..if not, then pass on it is my take on the subject.

Ray, I agree. I practice off the sticks at 300, but can recall only one animal past 300 I shot standing off the sticks and maybe I could/should have just sat down. It was my first time to the Selous on a wildebeest; we spotted a nice one across a draw and the PH asked if I could hit him. I ranged him at 308 and said, "Yeah."

He put the sticks up and I whacked him without really thinking about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bench rest shooting is fine to sight in a gun, to test fire your loads, but after each session stand up and fire a dozen or so shots off hand at the 100 yard target, try to shoot as fast as your accuracy will allow..Dry fire a lot at home, get familiar with your rifle, it will all come together pretty quick..especially you city dwellers who don't have the time or place to preactic..

I’ve been doing pretty much exactly this for years. Last November, when it came time for me to shoot my first-ever elk, the only shot I had was at last light. The guide ranged it at 110 yards and told me to take a rest, but the only thing between us and the bull was a big salal bed. There was no way any bull elk was going to stick around while I wallowed in that stuff around getting a rest, so I just shot him offhand.

That was not how I expected it to go and not how I wanted it to go, but he went down and stayed down.


Okie John

One PH I've encountered thought American's were typically good shots, but that the Germans were consistently best. Especially on running game. That PH, and another in a different country, thought the Spanish were entitled and unreasonable. Neither commented on their shooting ability.