A female friend of mine is going on a dog sled trip with three other women in polar bear country soon. They need a gun to protect in case of very close encounters with polar bears. They have asked my opinion. I have advised a remington 870 marine. The question is what do you shoot? I have advised 00 buck shot or slugs.

any thoughts.

Thanks.

I have no use for a shotgun as a back up gun for heavy dangerous game, It is only suitable for light skinned stuff like Leopard IMO...Slugs kill so damned slow on large animals and buchshot fails to penitrate on many ocassions..you would also have to allow the bear to get too bloody close to be effective and then if it failed, you havn't got chance..The USFS settled for a 12 ga. in Alaska for personel protection and that in itself convienced me it was a bad choice....later to be confirmed..

I would suggest a 375, or even a 416 or 404 if they can shoot them...If recoil is a problem then a 338, 9.3x62, and at least a 30-06 with 180 gr. failsafes or 220 gr. Noslers...

you could take a lever 45-70 with hot handloads. easy to handle, and many are ported.

I share your sentiment about a large bore rifle being better as a back up gun, but there are facts that have led me to believe it would not be good in this situation. I believe that it takes a good marksman and a cool hand to shoot a rifle well under pressure. These ladies have no experience with rifles. Several have experience with shotguns. I also think it is easier to hit something several times at close range with pump shotgun loaded with buckshot than with a rifle. The old maxim "if you can't hit it, you can't kill it applies."

I suggest that they learn how to handle pump shotguns with slugs and large-caliber rifles before they go into polar bear country.

Their best bet is to release the dogs who will try to take on the bear. While the bear is trying to get to the dogs, they can shoot the bear.

Then, they should break out their shovels, bury the bear, get the dogs back into the traces, and get the hell out of there!

George

kynadog: I imagine those ladies already know that to kill polar bears in some places, one would have to show some scratches on the skin to prove it was on self defense. That said, I remember watching a documentary from Churchill, Canada, where a little old lady shot a polar bear on the chest (frontal shot) with her shotgun, dropping the bear instantly. The bear stepped on her porch, ready to walk into her home.

Then a few civilians from Eielson AFB, Alaska were at a remote location in Alaska, and a polar bear jumped through the window and started chewing one of the guys. One of them grabbed a shotgun that was loaded with slugs, and killed the bear as it stood over the guy being mauled.

This winter a trooper, I believe, responded to a call about a grizzly or brown bear that had entered a hotel looking for food. The bear was in the hallway trying to get in the rooms where oil workers were eating, and the trooper shot and killed the bear with his shotgun from about 10 feet away.

A shotgun will work as long as the bear is close, perhaps within 20 feet away.

Here is some info about shotgun use:
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm#Destruction

[ 02-19-2003, 08:33: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

You already have good advice, but here is my two cents worth. This may be an area where lever action big bore could be put to good effect, better than the shotgun I would think. No matter what they take, someone do them a favor and make sure they can handle the weapon and shoot the weapon, and yes that means practice. Bear guns taken for "protection" seem to end up on the bottom of whatever, cartridges elsewhere. My Model 97 I used to carry in Alaska usually ended up not "in hand" when the bear was "in hand", if you know what I mean. I have had to "talk down" a couple of coastal browns that, had I been "in hand" ready, might be a rug instead. The last one of these "talk downs" ended my habit of bringing that Model 97, I'm real sure it would have really pissed her off had I tried to use it. On the other hand, the salmon were very good that day!!

That Trooper in Alaska was using Brenneke slugs not fosters. They switched years ago after doing some extensive testing looking for a round to dispatch wounded moose. Fosters should only be used on deer and not on frontal shots on bears. They are too soft, pure lead. Go with the Brenneke or the new Remingtons that are solid.

It is still OK for Native Americans in Alaska to hunt polar bears. I have a friend whose Eskimo wife is going out soon to try for one.

The Norwegian Polar Institute have issued their scientists and crew with stainless / fiberstocked Ruger M 77 in 30-06. They work among polarbears on a regular basis in the Svalbard arcipelago, and they consider their choice of firearm as prudent.

Pretty scary scenario, trying to defend yourself from arguably the most dangerous animal in NA, with no firearm experience!
I think I'd go with two or three Rem 870's loaded with slugs all around, placed in different but constant locations amongst the gear, and at least 20 rounds through each of them, by each of the four women.

You did say "in case of very close encounters."
If their point is to increase odds, then that's how you start.

You never know; might be the start of a new hobby for them!

Hi
I never had the chance to face a polar bear yet,but if it happens i do prefer to have a drilling in 12x2 / 9,3x74 or 30 r blaser or 8x57r with the heavist loads and of course the ladies should shoot yhe gun at least 200 times or more before the trip.
Br
danny

Several years ago there was an article in National Geographic about a similar expedition. They encountered a polor bear intent on doing them harm and they dispatched it with a .44 Magnum handgun. (But I would carry my Alaska Guide gun with Corbon loads)

Gun choice is a moot point unless they are well trained and can remain calm in an emergency then they wiil have real protection instead of feel good protection.

I will tell you my experience with using a shotty gun for dangerous game......

I once had to shoot an emu (a tad smaller than an ostrich and VERY dangerous ) that was terrorizing a little old lady out in the country. After getting the green light from my Sgt. to take him out I grabbed my 12ga with OO buck. The first center mass hit at 12 yds just made him 'shudder'....look like he shrugged off the buckshot....and he just kept walking! The 2nd center mass shot dropped him but he started to get up! The 3rd shot laid him over with him still trying to get his feet under him....and the 4th shot at nearly point blank did him in....FINALLY! This is all true and of course I had to write an incident report.

I stopped carrying a shotgun in the patrol car from that point on! As a matter of fact, I sold it not long after that.

12 ga for polar bear???.......I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!

[ 02-19-2003, 21:12: Message edited by: TXPO ]

Ray's experience is telling here and his views on shotguns for the big boys. Do yourself a favor, go to a zoo and LOOK at a polar bear. Forget that 45.70 bullshit too. if you are indeed using it for backup only, go with an over 40 caliber like any of the 416s, iron sights and preium bullets. jorge

I worked for a summer doing plant ecology research north of the arctic circle in Canada and almost everyone carried Remington 870s with as many 1 1/4oz slugs as would fit. These were the only bear protection guns issued by the research base although a few people used their own rifles. Mostly these were 30-06 bolt actions and one guy had a semi-auto that I think was a 308. I don't know anyone who's ever shot a polar bear though - so take it for what it's worth...

Sounds as if you're leaning towards the shotgun (Remington 870 Marine) because they're already familiar with that type. If that's the situation, you might want to consider the Remington 7600 pump action rifle. They show a 30-06 with an 18 1/2" barrel for about the same price as the 870. I'd prefer a 30-06 with 220's or 180's to a 12 gauge.

Here is a picture of the bear shot at the Prudhoe Bay Hotel

As to the question at hand, it is the job for a rifle. Shotguns are meant for shooting birds, not dangerous game. Just because it has a big hole in the barrel, kicks a bunch, is cheap and lots of bubba's and gov. workers carry them, does not make them a good choice.

My usual advice to those with little/no firearm experience as to bear defense is don't carry anything, as it'll give you a false sense of security, and you're better off just not doing stupid things to bring in the bears. That said, the polar bear is a different matter, if you are in his world, then you are a potential food source.

The best advice is the biggest rifle the women can shoot proficiently. There also needs to be serious consideration as to how the rifle is prepared for use in the arctic, and fired while wearing arctic gear. The gun needs to be easily manipulated while wearing heavy gloves.

Marlin stainless 1895 45/70 loaded with woodleigh 405 gr Flat points ???

Or maybe even a Rem pump carbine in 30/06 loaded with factory 180 gr fail safes.

I would agree almost word for word with Ray.

OO has failed to penetrate tough hide too many times. Even the (semi) scientific experiments I've done regarding OO penetration has shown it is a poor choice if you want max penetration.

If I only had a shotgun, I would want it loaded with slugs, Brenneke slugs preferably.

Most important is ability and practice with whatever they use.

I think this would be a perfect use for the Hatari Times .458 Jungle Carbine built by Harald Wolf. I believe it is for sale on his web-site.

A shotgun is, I think, clearly inappropriate. Enough . . . maybe (given some circumstances described above). Appropriate . . . HELL NO! Looking at that photo in the Prudhoe Bay hotel for Christ's sake! Would you want a shotgun????
Good God, Man! Give me my .416 and enough ammo to potentially reload if he starts clawing his way through my hotel room door a la jack Nicholson in "The Shining". HEEEERRRE'S JOHNNNYYY!

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 02-20-2003, 01:22: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

.416 Hoffman/Remington. Have it Mag-Na-Ported.

I shotgun load with good slugs and sites well work just fine. But forget the buckshot. I would carry a good rilfe in any decent caliber above 30 with good bullets well work. The 45 70 with good bullets such as the new win failsafe will work good to. A little bit of range time is all that these ladys need.

Browning M-2 would work as a light weight gun option, but I think somthing with a lanyard would be more effective at calming the ladies worries (and the bears attitude), say a 7.5cm or even a 10.5cm gun.

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.

everybody seemed to pass by mete's post so I repeat it. whatever they use is worthless if they don't know how to use it. I mean practice until the use of the piece is automatic. Being so scared you have shit running down your leg is not the time to be saying, "which one of these thingies do I push to make it go bang, bang."

Just my 2 cents worth I live and work in Churchill Manitoba , we run a hiking tour company and also do Polar bear security for various companies working in the field. All of our staff carry rifles ranging from .375 H&H to .458 if you must do the deed do it fast usually no second chance. Bears move sickenly fast. You must break big bones or a brain shot ( very hard on a charging bear) Polar bears head is much more wedge shaped than the other bears. When he comes at you his head is down , we teach to shoot for the space between the sholder blades ( spine) If the ladies can handle a shotgun they should with practice be able to handel a rifle. We only use shotguns for cracker shells ( used to scare bears away)
Take Care
gp

My choice would be a ported SS Marlin guide gun in .450 Marlin. equip it with a set of Ashley ghost ring sights and load it with Swift 400gr A-Frames, HOT. That friends, is a bear gun.

[ 02-20-2003, 02:42: Message edited by: TC1 ]

I've seen a grizzly drop in one shot from a slug while living in Whitehorse. I would have no problems using a 12 gauge shotgun as protection against anything in NA.

I wouldn't use a shotgun for hunting but for protection, no problems.

[ 02-20-2003, 09:21: Message edited by: Ranger Dave ]

Well i have a couple of 45/70'S forget factory loads for Polar Bears, Lots of guys going to heavy hard cast bullets some say there great. To be honest i limit the 45/70 for what its for ( in my opinion) Deer and Black bear as for shotgun slugs , if you must maybe the new sabot solids will work, again i will stick to deer with my shotguns. If it was me and i was that worried i would like a .416 and up. Or i would hire a guide that nows how to use one.

kynadog,

Four women with as you put it "These ladies have no experience with rifles." to me spells trouble. My suggestion is for them to add two more people to their party that DO know how to handle rifles. Large bore rifles. Round lead balls don't penetrate well on polar bears. Records show that in by-gone years many a hunter was killed by an enraged polar bear AFTER they had shot it with a muzzle loader charged with round balls. The shear amount of hair combined with a tough hide and a layer of tough fat absorbs the energy from a shot very well. I talked to one gentleman that used a .375 H&H to take his polar bear and they had no problem recovering the four bullets from the bear. He had used this same load for buffalo in Africa and it had passed thru a buffalo at 100 yards and didn’t on a polar bear at 50 yards. If you have to use a shotgun USE slugs and leave the buckshot at home. Lawdog

Polar bears are larger then Grizzly bears, on par size wise with the coastal brown bear.

I would recomend strongly against a stainless steel rifle, at low temperatures the metal is brittle and can fail. Speaking of low temps, they are likely in much greater danger of getting frostbite the gettin et by a bar.

I know that the polar bears are rather well monitored by the fish cops, so the party should look into getting any recent info on where the bears have been seen on the ice pack.

For anyone interested, hear is a link to the story about the univited hotel guest http://www.adn.com/video/story/1969670p-2071829c.html

I've seen some doco's where the local hunters use a SMLE .303. Being a rear locking rifle, it preformed better in the icy conditions.
As with "These ladies have no experience with rifles" With all the training and preperation that must go into a trip to the Artic, some instruction and practise with a firearm seems like a good investment.

Just my thoughts (even though the biggest bear I've been next to is a Koala)

Bakes

Okay you have been given all kind of advice and it is all good.Let me say the shot gun will kill at close range as others have posted,but leave the buckshot alone,if you are setting this up as a bear gun only go with the Remington Marine or the standard look for either 3" or the 3 1/2", buy it with a RIFLED bbl and SIGHTS, make sure it will feed from the extend magazine,the newer Rem's have been having a little trouble lately.
Stay with the Sabot type slugs,they are designed for the rifled bbl's, the best sights going are the big peep sights offered by a few companys,and you better practice alot as the slugs are going to rock you out of a Remington,Do no know and will not comment on what will settle for self defense from a bear in that area but for the best results you best keep the shots at no more than 45-50 yards and under. They mite be better served with a bear dog along for the trip as well as carrying some throwable bird bombs are some rounds for the shotgun,Polars fear nothing and ever thing is food to them,but the bird bombs will work if they go off close to them. Main thing to tell the Girls is never take their eyes off of the bear once sighted and appears to be circleing, because thats is what its doing and it is coming to find out whats for dinner,

In defense of the ladies: yes they are not terribly experienced with rifles but they are with shotguns.

They have limited space (4 week unresupplied trek over pack ice) and taking a shotgun and a large bore rifle is out of the question. They have determined, and I agree, that it would be much better to take the best bear deterrent rather than the best bear killer. Most polar explorers know that "crackle shells" (a shotgun shell that sounds like several firecrackers going off) scares most bears away before they become a real nuisance.

I just want them to be able to kill a bear if they have to. I am placing my bet on the ladies with slugs. Lot's of slugs.

Do what the inuit do......use a 223.

Stainless failing in the cold......supporting
data if you wouldn't mind would be nice for
all of us who routinely hunt in -20 and colder
with stainless rifles.

Ross

kynadog- I agree with you- if the girls have to shoot the bear it will be inside 50yds and a 12ga. slug, or multiple 12ga. slugs is going to put the serious hurt on the bear.
The other thing I would have is the 20% pepper spray in the big sprayer. When you squirt that stuff not even a lion, buff, hippo, or elephant is going to be concerned with the person the squirted that stuff- They're GONE!!!

You know... captn Jack made a good recomondation about the 20% peper spray. There are MANY shooters that attack this product to justify useing a gun. This is a shame because I have first hand experiance with this stuff on animals (dogs, a mountian lion and many Cats) and it works very well... PROVIDED YOU DONT GET FALL-OUT FROM IT YOURSELF. Personaly If I sprayed the bastard I would probably wind up shooting him anyways. An animals keen senses seem very sensitive to it.
Try it out... if you have a problem cat or dog, it works wonders.

The Browning BAR in .338 with a good 250 grainer seems like it might be a good choice as short stroking of the bolt wouldn't be an issue. I really don't think recoil is much of an issue with bear induced adrenaline coursing through the ladie's veins. I would suggest to them that the rifle should be at hands reach 24 hours a day.

I had a large brownie stick his head up through the alders and woof at me from about 40 yards away, while salmon fishing on the Kasilof River. The two things that came immediatly to mind were:

1. If he was really pissed and charged, I probably wouldn't have had time to unsling my 12 Guage shotgun and make a decent shot before I was turned into sausage.

2. I wish I had a .375 instead of a shotgun!

Elmo

I agree with what Paul H said. Them ladies ought to take up some rifle shooting, and determine what rifle they can handle well enough to suffice, be it a 30-06 or whatever. Shooting something larger then they can handle is counter-productive.
Should they decide to use a shotgun (it appears as thought they already have), then Breneke slugs are warranted. ~~~Suluuq