Coming from Aussieland I don't have any experience in this issue but isn't this whole project in the nature of a stunt.

If they can't shoot, why are they planning to do such a trip without being adequately prepared or without someone experienced enough to hold their hand.

If I said I want to walk Kruger National Park from South to North by myself unaided carrying only a daypack and a decent firearm is too heavy, I might have to leave some museli bars behind, and I can't shoot anything bigger than a .410 shotgun anyway, would I be a "total stuntster".

Pepper spray and cracker shells? They don't even stop an enraged drunk let alone a large maneating wild animal.

Sounds a bit like they have watched too much Disney.

Maybe they should learn to use a decent backup rifle first and what other preparation they need before considering such a stunt.

Sort of like heading off into the desert with only a couple of Coke cans as drinking supplies.

It would be interesting to know what early explorers considered essential. Also what is the probability of encountering polar bears on such a trip?

Of course its their skins so they can do what they want and live with the consequences!

My two options-
1.Marlin Guide Gun lever action in the 450 Marlin
2.Remington 870 with an extended magazine and use Hevi-Shot buckshot for your projectiles. This stuff is stronger than steel and denser than lead. Check them out at hevishot.com .
Best Wishes,
Jeff

Well, like groundpounder does now, I used to live and work in Churchill, and we dealt with the bears pretty regular (forestry service, at the time). If they won't/can't deal with a big bore rifle, then a 12 gauge shotgun is the only way to go I guess, beats using your nail file. The deepest penetrating slugs you can find, maybe buckshot up the spout for your first shot. If you can blind him and destroy his sense of smell with the first shot, you'll probably stand a much better chance. However, having spent time up close and personal with some of these bears I have to say that if he's mad/hungry, you're probably just going to piss him off more. A bear dog is a very good idea, sled dogs can be cross trained. Anyway, get them to practice, practice, practice. Are they going to be along the bear route during their (the bears) ice hunting season? If so their chances of a close encounter of the furry kind goes up. Route planning and timing can have a LOT to do with their safety. Polar bears really aren't something to fool around with if you can help it. Oh and 1894, they dropped the triple duce in favour of the 223 for the simplist of reasons, government supplied ammo. - Dan

What is dangerous advise is to base your opinion on one or two instant kills with a shotgun, I know for a fact that slugs do not kill large animals dead on the spot every time, in fact most of the time they do not....A shotgun is no easier to hit with than a rifle, as to be effective they must be fired at point blank rang and with buckshot or slugs you have a single bore size pattern, just like a rifle.

I book for a lot of Alaskan Brown Bears, and I do not know of a single Master Guide that packs a shotgun, not one!! Nor do they carry pepper spray...These guy pack big bores, 458's, 505's and at least 338's to the man.

I know and book for a lot of African guides and with the exception of Leopard they do not use a shotgun...For Leopard, a good shotgun with 00 hard buckshot is perfectly OK, I personally would like a rifle as an additional back up and visa versa.

I would personally pay for the hunt if anyone would like to stand a Cape Buffalo, Lion charge with pepper spray, but only if you survive, otherwise your widow can pay for it out of your insurance. Just kidding of course as I'm sure there are some nuts out there that would take me up on that and I'd have to save their ass, and lose the bet.

Pepper spray is not completely proven to be effective on polar bears as far as I know.

It is also completly useless if there is a strong wind blowing towards you. There are often strong winds blowing in the north.

A dog (or a group of dogs) is going to be more effective than bear spray. Most sled dogs aren't all that far off from wolves, and they hate bears. A good bear dog or two can harass the bear enought ot drive it off, or give you a second to shoot. (They have to be free though. Not much good if they are on a leash or in the harness.)

I would never want to use buckshot against a polar bear. Anyone advising buckshot for large bears needs to do some real investigating.

One more case for the rifle- at the point where you decide to shoot, it will be rock throwing distance. If you can shoot a shotgun accurately, you can do the same with a rifle.

The idea of "increasing hit potential" by using buckshot is flawed. If you just get a couple of pieces of shot into him (even his head, where it may or may not penetrate the skull) he is not going to feel it.

If you have never been up close to a big bear, it is hard to comprehend how strong they are.

I would listen to the boys who have worked the Churchill area. I've watched a couple of those big boys out on the coastal ice of Gates of the Artic NWR tearing chunks of meat as big as basketballs out of the carcass of a whale and then fighting about who owned the whale. Its hard to believe such fast masses of fury in such large animals - pretty spooky! I think I would advise my female friend to postpone the trip until at least one of them CAN HANDLE a large bore rifle!

Guys,

I guess my biggest question about this four week, no resupply trip would be why a gun is definitely out of the question? Lack of space? C'mon! Sounds to me bear protection is almost an afterthought. If you read many of the pepper spray reports, you will find the test results show, on a number of occasions, only temporary effectiveness where the bear will return. Under ideal conditions, no wind, no blowing snow, no surprise, will the ladies be able to aim the spray(this is not insect fogger), better described stream, into the eye of the animal when the heat is really on? Cracker loads(seal bombs around here on occasion)may deter a mildly curious bear but a hungry bear bent on getting what he wants is nothing to speculate about. I agree, if a shotgun is all they can handle, that's better then nothing. Leave the buckshot at home. If they can shoot slugs, they can handle a rifle. Someone needs some intense firearms training pretty quickly. No, I don't do polar bears, only lots of browns and blacks. Polar bears are the top of the Arctic food chain. Don't believe it? Be ready for the consequences.

Joe

Kynadog,my choice would be also the 870 Rem with slugs, but also carry the 44 mag wheel gun with duct tape for wrapping around their hands at night in the sleeping bag in case he had a taste for crunchy little critters. Crowcommander

Going into big bear country without the appropriate gear is a bad idea. Doing it without the essential bear saftey knowledge is downright foolish. Suicidal.I have an article of a Wyoming guide who specializes in Elk hunts in Grizz country where the bears answer to a shot like its the dinner bell. He carries only pepper spray and a wealth of bear knowledge and adheres strictly to many self imposed rules for avoiding confrontations.

Id like to have a dollar for every time Ive read on this forum the importance of bullet placement, if them gals cant shoot then they darn well need to learn. Under the circumstances Id say the pepper spray is an excellent idea, while it may not be a sure thing it is one thing they are certianly better off with than without.

I won't make any more comment on shotguns, have posted already,but Pepper Spray, thats a horse of a different color, I have had to carry to wonder spray now for about 10 years and let me tell you IT DOESN'T WORK ON ABOUT 80% OF PEOPLE.Hell the Navy Seals in this area train with so it becomes more like after shave, than any thing else,most Postal workers in this area I talk with don't trust it to work,but are required to carry it.Not sure I would trust or even use it on bears

Ray,

You crack me up. You think I'd drop a load in my pants before I got the spray off.

Seriously, the elements alone (weather) have the best chance of creating a problem out there. One simply cannot travel into wilderness without extreme cunning in all phases of survival.

For a firearm, I would not take less than a .375, in H&H or Steyr and would feel much better with a 416 Rem Mag or 458 Win Mag. Since these women have no experience with big bores, and the aformentioned cartridges produce up to 65 ft-lbs of recoil, I'd say a couple of them better get busy shooting in full snow garb practicing off- hand shooting, and pronto.

I would suggest if a bolt gun is not their cup of tea, try the guide gun in 45/70 packing the 405 grain CorBon Penetrator solid jacket load at 1650 fps. It is a very high integrity load designed especially to crush and break down big bone and muscular game. That means practicing with a lever gun.

Ross, as to Paul H's comment, it is a fact that barrel makers will confirm. Carbon steel (chrome moly SAE 4142) is about 33% stronger than stainless (416R), with a very high tolerance to low tempertures. After all it's the same steel used to make automobile axles. The temperture can start to effect a stainless barrel (it's molecular structure) at around minus 10 degrees Fahrenheit, by contrast a chrome moly barrel easily withstands greater than minus 40 degree Fahrenheit tempertures before the steel starts to have a molecular change.

Take Care,
rossi

[ 02-21-2003, 18:16: Message edited by: rossi ]

Hi rossi
They can certainly improv the cold resistance quality of stainless guns by adding ,5% molibdenium to 416 steel ,because as you mentioned the straight stainlees steels are very sensetive to the cold i don't know why the gun makers ignor this. I wonder if there aresome gunmakers using better quality stells like 17-4 pch steel in their product i know that casual sixguns are made of this better steel.
best regards
Danny

Guys , what are we actually talking about hear , with the stainless steel in cold temps.? Whats ment by failure, what actually happens? I ask because it seams to be a trend these days stainless and synthectic stocks. And i beleive most people think its best for cold weather hunting. I myself don't care to much for stainless , and have bought some synthecic stocks but have always gone back to wood. Just love the looks and feel of a good wood stock.Please explain about the stainless steel. Thanks Tanoose

All steels get brittle at cold temperatures, but the stainless used in firearms is more susceptible to this. Even with carbon steels, in the arctic oilfields, there are many limitations placed on using lifting equipment when tempertures drop below -20F. Winters have been warmer as of late in the Arctic, but -30 to -40 F ambient is still common. It can drop to -60 or colder ambient.

Interesting comments on the stainless however
I would be most interested to hear of documented
cases of the failure of a stainless steel rifle
that could be proven to be the result of cold
ambient temperatures.

Ross