I was asked about this in my post on caliber choice for moose.

Well, all up I've had 3 bad runs with the 7mmRM, the first one was a huge fallow buck.

He might have weighted around 100kg(220lb)
The first shot was a little far back, although it still clipped that rear of the lungs.
2nd and 3rd shots hit the gut and pelvis respectively as he ran from the first shot.

Admittedly in this scenario we have 2 shots badly placed and the first was less than ideal.

After taking these shots the buck lay down to, only it took another 15 minutes for the wound to take effect, struggling at times to get up.

This was not a pleasant experience let me tell you.
I had no more ammo, as I rarely carry extra ammo when I'm hunting on my place simply because I "never" need it.

2� Another big one, the biggest boar I have taken.
As he was trotting quietly across a field at last light, I followed him through the scope hoping he would stop, when he was directly in front of me at around 60m I took the shot.

The boar didn't even break stride, and trotted off into the darkness.

I found him the next morning with a wound that looked like it had been inflicted with a knitting needle. No blood trail. Holes centre of both shoulders, very little damage inside.

3� A friend was using my 7mmRM, he took a shot at a small boar, which again, showed no sign of being hit. No blood to follow. The next day, by pure chance I found that boar dead in a totally different area about 1.5km(almost 1 mile) away with the same little holes in his shoulders.

Most people have had very good results with this caliber, so I can't just come out and say "it doesn't work"

Maybe I got 3 bad partitions one after the other in some sort of freak streak of bad luck?

I don't know.

I still can't decide which rifle to take out for moose at the moment, but I am still considering any of the 3, I don't think that what happened with me was normal so I won't call it the rule.

The .300WBY and 7mmRM are both Sauer 202's so I can shoot them to the same degree, it is a rifle I am very familiar with as I do a lot of hunting with a 202 in .243win.

I will load up some CT partition golds in 7mmRM see how they shoot, try the .300MBY factory stuff and load up some 260gn partitions in .375H&H and try them all on paper, which ever one I like best I will take.

[ 05-07-2003, 12:37: Message edited by: EXPRESS ]

1st one

Bad bullet placement...

The two others sound like bad bullet performance. I'd send that batch of bullets back to Nosler if you still have them..

Anyways, just don't take your .243 moose hunting!

I am not sure what bullet you are talking about?

In the first case that could be a normal situation since the shots were not well placed.

Carry extra ammo then. The father of the 7mm RM carried only one shot however.

Shoot some of the bullets that you have into water filled cartons. It takes about a dozen 1/2 gallon ones lined up to stop a bullet like those. Compare one to the other.

Express,

Sounds too me like a combination of factors ie poor shot placement (as you say) combined with the effect of either too much velocity/bad bullet performance. I have seen Fallow and Red taken quite convincingly with the .308, 6.5x55 and the 7x57 as was surprised at you being dissapointed at the 7mmRem mag... Looking at your choice in calibers, it seems you like fairly high velocities? Is there any reason you went for a 7mm mag and .30 mag? Don't they overlap somewhat in their applications? Have you considered swapping one for something like a 9.3x62??? Just a thought as i would imagine the 9.3x62 would be mustard on big boars & moose..

Pete

[ 05-07-2003, 16:46: Message edited by: Pete E ]

that's funny I have never considered myself a speedfreak, but if a take a look at my collection...

These two rifles were purchsed by myself and my dad with the idea of taking off for an ibex hunt one day...

Since then they have been used for anything but long range alpine hunting.

I would agree that velicity could be a factor in this problems as the pigs were both taken @ around 50-60m.

Something like a 9,8x62 would be good for pigs here, but I don't own such a rifle, and hey, something like that on a Mauser action would be very nice!

A .308 scout rifle is the next closest(though not very) thing, but I would prefer something that delivers a bit more punch for moose, hence these two.

The .375 is looking better and better all the time!

In the first case you did not give the estimated distance, you wrote only about a bad placement, in the second case you speak about 60m.

I had almost three episode of too high velocity and bad bullet work relationship on fast calibers.
One episode has been during a roe deer cow hunting, when a friend of mine shooted to a cow 60/80meters far from us. The shot was easy, and the cow not too much allarmed. Well hitted at the shoulder by a Sierra gameking bullet, the cow runned away for several hundred meters.
The same kind of shot, with a longer shot (150/180meters) distance never gave problems. Less velocity, better bullet work, more shock.

bye

Sounds to me like you need a .30-30 or 7x57mm (tongue only slightly planted in cheek).

I have a feeling your ranges are a bit too close for the magnum speeds...Partition or no Partition. 60 meters, you say? OK, way too close.

But, it sounds like you have the belts in your blood and it may be too late for you to make such a life change.

RSY

I've shot over a hundred game animals from Whitetail to Elk with a 7 MM Rem. In all those shots I've had 2 bullet failures. One was a Ballistic tip on a Whitetail, and one was a 175 Gr. Hornady on the shoulder of a caribou. Both of these bullets disentegrated on impact. I think you're experiencing bad performance from Partitions, in that they're not espanding at all, not a speed problem. I've seen the same failure from Partitions, twice from two different 30-06's with 180 Gr. bullets. Both were relatively close shots at moose. One bullet was found in a tree behind the moose, totally unexpanded.

I wouldn't bet on it, I do have a 30-30, and came just "this" close to picking up a 7x57R!!!

use the 300 wby.-180 gr nosler partion, 80 gr. h-4831sc powder,-federal gm215m primers,=3050 fpm velocity =energy delivered. two canoes

Regarding the elk, that is just poor bullet placement in all probability. Regarding the boars, I assume you mean wild pigs. Unless you are doing a shoulder shot with an X bullet, failsafe, swift a frame, maybe a partition, shots in the boiler room are good shots, but pretty much all wild pigs will run 50 to 100 yards after that shot. That's why it is not a good idea to hunt pigs close to brush, unless you are trying a shoulder shot. If the bullet fails to penetrate the shield in a shoulder shot, the pig will run off also. Shoulder shots destroy meat, so a good boiler room shot is a good one as long as you arent close to brush. This is what a wild boar guide told me when I was pig hunting this spring. He said, no matter what the caliber, unless it is a shoulder shot, the pig will run 50-100 yds and then drop. They are tough, plus the fat can plug the exit wound in certain situations.

EXPRESS
Take the 375, that way when you look through the sights you will have no doubts. That is not the time for worrying about your equipment.

What weight bullet were you using? If you weren't shooting at least a 160 you didn't need the 7 mag.

What Gatehouse said, but Wow! That sounds like the kind of bullet failure one would expect from an "x" type of bullet, not a partition. Nonetheless, a Moose is going to have to absorb more of that energy that is punching right through some of your other animals.

Ive had more one shot kills with a 7mm RM than any other rifle. Ditch that bad batch of bullets, load up some heavy for caliber bullets, aim for the shoulder, and dont give it another thought. Its NOT the guns fault!!

Sounds to me like bad bullet placement in all three cases. If you shoot them through the heart lung area, you will have a blood trail and they will die. You had exit wounds on all cases and one went as you said, one mile away. If hit properly they will not go that far. Does not sound like a bullet error, sounds like a hunter error.

Didn't you post this same story on HA some time ago with a few twists. Sounds the same to me, the error is still the same. Personal assessment is in order,not the caliber.

Another common myth arises again.Bullets do not fail to expand from too much velocity.Higher velocity causes bullets to expand more rapidly.Failures caused by too much velocity are when bullets overexpand or come apart without adequate penetration.For the record partitions are known to be great penetraters but they do not expand as quickly as many other bullets and in most cases the animals do run farther before dropping because of the reduced expansion.

[ 05-08-2003, 07:36: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

...Customstox, you can be sure the two pigs were shot properly, the deer was not, but nonetheless, the first shot was still forward of the last ribs and the lungs were damaged.

I shoot nearly every weekend at my local range, plus at home I am doing some form of hunting or another several times a week. Yesterday I took a roe buck @ 220m. Not offhand, not with a 7mmRM.
He ran 30m and died.

So I am pretty sure I have worked out the shooting part.
I may not win any bench rest championships, at the most a friendly match with a ham up for grabs, but here the problem is not bulllet placement, rather bullet, in that specific caliber, in these specific situations.

Secondly, I do not know what HA is, the only other sites I post on are predator masters, and occasionally nitroexpress.com you'll find me there as EXPRESS too.
Though this is not the first time I have mentioned these episodes on AR.

Since I had these experiences with it, I don't think I'll be taking halfway across the world to hunt bloody great moose, 'cos somewhere in the back of my mind will lurk the fear that he will just run away when I shoot him.

Express-I have hunted about 30 yrs. with the 7 Rem mag.. I suffered early bullet problems with mine--until I switched to 160gr. Partitions. 70 deer or so and a few elk, with nothing but stellar performance. Ranges on blacktail bucks have been from 10 yards to 396 yds. The average range has been around 50-75 yds. Bullet weight in this caliber is important--too heavy (175)means too much penetration/too little expansion. As the wise fellow above stated, high speeds at close range cause overexpansion--not underexpansion. I use 175's only on elk--good expansion on 500 # animals with excellent penetration. It seems to me that we first blame the equipment, which is ussually the last thing to fail...Chuck

The thing is , the shoulder joints were not hit and broken on the hogs that ran off . No quadraped can run off on two hind legs.

You may have hit the hogs thru the "shoulders" , but likely no real vital parts were damaged........

Another thing , a Nosler partiton can give the appearance of little expansion , when such is not the case . If it hits at too high a velocity , the front core can blow off shortly after entry , leaving the rear core of only bore diameter to possibly exit.

It then "looks" like little expansion has occured , when the opposite is true .....

sdgunslinger:

Thank you. You saved me some typing regarding the Partition at high velocities. It's just like the ice cream falling off the cone.

stubblejumper: I realize velocity is required for expansion to take place. But, you can also cross a threshold, after which expansion quickly becomes explosion/disintegration. Too much of a good thing, in other words.

RSY

I will repeat that is was bullet placement and not bullet performance. Your last post some time ago gave more gave more specifics to show what really happened but the answer is obvious and is the same as before. There were also a lot more responses saying the same thing as mine. Sometimes it is best to just lay it on the line. The nosler partition will kill easily with the front gone and they will not run one mile, IF they are hit in a vital area. Poor shot placement can not be cured by bullets or calibers.

...believe me, with the 2 pigs, it definatly was not bullet placement.

Why won't you accept that somtimes a product does not perform the way it should?

I am not known for blaming my gear when things go wrong.

The last time you posted about this it was 3 pigs that you shot by yourself, now it is one that you shot, a fallow deer and one by a friend with the same rifle. Your crediblitly is slipping a bit.

http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002123

Your experience greatly reflects mine with partitions, hence why I will never shoot them again. I have shot or witnessed a dozen partition kills on critters. I have never seen them do anything but pencil through. I have actually recovered a couple of them and the petals are folded back so tightly against the shank of the bullet that they look like a wad cutter and act like a wad cutter. VERY small "knitting needle" type wound channels and exit holes have been the norm on every kill. Not ONE critter has ever "acted" like it was hit. It doesn't seem to matter if the critters are hit close or far, fast or slow, hitting bone or not. Partitions leave dinky wound channels and NO blood trails. The only reason I can see that they are so popular is they almost always leave an exit hole, although very small, and guys get all turned on about "the power" their rifle must have to punch all the way through a critter. Every critter we have hit with them (perfect shots) have traveled a fair distance. The last two trophy bulls went a good 200 yards hit through the boiler room (160 partitions). I guess that is why partition shooters like exit holes, because they know they are gonna have to track some I like critters down right now...tute sweet. If you hand load, load the 140 grain Barnes XLC for everything. They work superbly. If you don't hand load, use the Federal 160 grain Trophy Bonded premium loads. They work so well it is scary...and they work all the time! Flinch

Oh, and one more thing, don't blame the 7mag for not getting your critter. I have shot truck loads of big and small critters with it. It is a fantastic caliber, but VERY bullet specific. Flinch

Customstox, why is it that you keep trying to make this look like I'm making this stuff up?
Why is it that you assume you know what is going on here in these situations?

The link takes you to another story where I was using the 7mm. I wrote about the last 2 pigs I shot at previously and relate the shooting and loss of a further pig.

Why do you feel you can assume we are talking about the same animals and outings???

If you want to start a fight over it, then fine.
We'll talk about it, if not, just accept what I have written is an actual recount of the events.

Your first shot at trying to make me look bad failed, as I have never posted in HA whatever forum that my be. So now you want to take another shot? feel free...

[ 05-08-2003, 23:43: Message edited by: EXPRESS ]

I have shot a few animals w/ the 7mag/160grNp, pronghorn, deer, tahr & spike elk. I have nothing but high marks for the NP. All of the kills have been btwn. 100 & 150yds. All bullets passed through & expansion was evident even on the pringhorn. No animal traveled more than a few steps. My 7mag is now a 7mm Dakota & I still like the 160NP for an all round bullet @ 3000-3300fps. It always goes back to bullet placement doesn't it.

[ 05-09-2003, 05:11: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Flich, I don't blame the caliber for not killing the way I would have liked. Hell I just had these occasions where I suspect the bullets did not perform the way they are supposed to. That can and does happen from time to time.

I can and do call my shots, when the shooting is at fault I admit it.

Since these presumed bullet failures, I have develpoed one of those "i don't like you" attitudes with the 7mmRM for this type of hunting.
If I were to go hunt chamois or Ibex it would probably be my first choice.

Express, here is the title of that thread.

7MM Mag fails me again...

I cut and pasted it from the earlier post. You refer to it as 7 MM mag all the way through the post. Good season for troll hunting.

[ 05-08-2003, 23:45: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Yep. It failed on that occasion, and previously, and hence.

So, due to the title, you are going to try and point out that I do, in fact blame my gear?

I wrote in the post that I took the rifle out to try it again and see if it didn't work any better, exactly because I did not want to limit my think to blaming the 7mmRM.

I was not satisfied with the results in those occasions either.

I don't like the 7mmRM for the type of hunting I do on my place.

You want to argue with that?

Troll hunting?

you seem to have a holier than though complex mate.

What does it mean if previously I referred to it as 7 MM mag and now 7mmRM?

I think, if I read right you are using the Partition Gold. That bullet is built more stout than the regular Partition. Plus if your using the heavier wieghts I can see it penciling through. 140/150 regular Partition is excellent on deer sized game. The 160/175 is the elk-moose bullet. The Partition Gold does have the tougher front section and the steel insert in the cup.

I think the round choice is the problem. High velocity at relatively short ranges will likely spell disaster in my book. I would definitely lose the 7mm Rem Mag for a 9,3x62 (or something similarly moderate) and then only bust out the .300 (loaded with heavy bullets) when you know open country is part of the plan. I have shot boars with a 45-70 with nothing but excellent results. Big bullet + moderate velocity = dead critter in my humble opinion.

Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Guys - having just read thru this thread, I think I really ought to add in a little first hand experience.

I have stayed with Express at his home. Its a game ranch. He's partway a Lawyer - but thats only because his full time occupation is hunting. He misses very occasionally - and swears like a trooper when it happens.

He manages the cull plans on the estate single handedly. As a result, most months he takes more animals than many of us manage in a year. I have seen the consistent quality of his shooting, along with some truly spectacular running shots.

Yes - I'm biased as hell, he's a mate! However, he is good enough that he has no need to BS in a post. Take it as read, that what he describes has happened.

He's open to any ideas as to what could have caused these events - however, will rightly exclude some of the suggestions. This though is based on first hand knowledge of the facts, not assumption or interpretation!

Don't knock a man for doing that!

Rgds Ian

RSY-I have personally used the 140 gr partition out of my 7mmstw's with muzzle velocities of 3500fps and have driven them through the shoulders of elk and moose.I have yet to see one come apart even at these velocities so a 7mm rem mag at lesser velocities should never have a problem with this bullet not holding together especially on smaller game.In any case if there were exit holes the bullets did not fail to penetrate and did not break up.In any case it appears that the nonsense about the bullets going too fast to expand seems to have ceased.

Assuming the original post is on the up-n-up, heres my opinion. To the fellows who point out that too much velocity will increase rather than minimize expansion, that is true for the most part, BUT! Only if there is enough resistance on the part of the target to initiate and maintain expansion. A lack of velocity is one thing that results in poor expansion, but thin skinned game is definatly another.

When extreme velocities are combined with low resistance the results might be likened to punching paper, at very close ranges with premium bullets from a 7RM, the elememts are there for that type of scenario.

I think you need an STW and some monolithics.

Did someone say something about "too much of a good thing"?

[ 05-09-2003, 05:34: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Increased velocity will always result in more rapid expansion until the point where the bullet fragments and comes apart.In the case of very small game and little resistance a slower bullet will experience even less resistance and will expand even less.I have taken deer at 20 yards with the 140gr partition out of my stw and the bullets expanded fine even though no bones were hit on the lungshots.

Express,

First off the answer on whether you use for your special moose trip is simple - use the rifle you have the most confidence in. If you have doubts about the big 7 don't even think about taking it.

Re the fallow - I find fallow go a long way even with perfect shot placement and before anyone says get a bigger gun they run even when lung shot (or shoulder shot for that matter) with a 9.3x62.

With a lung shot you have to remove either the blood or the ability to breathe. A rearwards shot that just bruises the lungs does neither and as such is not really a fair test on your 7RM.

I am continualy amazed that you can shoot a roe just about anywhere with anything above 22LR and recover it but fallow shot perfectly need a dog more often than not.....

Chic,

You have a PM,

regards,

Pete