quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
For that matter, there are very few writers who could go out and shoot an elk on public land without a guide.

Nonesense. Obviously you know very few writers personally. Many of them who were raised or lived in the West were successful hunters and/or guides long before they became writers.

Tony,

I guess it depends on your definition of "very few." Most writers don't live in the West, and they don't hunt there unless it is an industry sponsored hunt. Maybe you know dozens of writers who live in NY and go on a DIY elk hunt every year; I don't.

Of course there are exceptions. Van Zwoll is an elk hunter and Zumbo has killed a ton as well. Boddington used to be a guide. But those three lived in the West or still do.

But the point is far too many of these kinds of stories are written by guys who have less experience than many readers. Let's put it this way: what is the last DIY elk hunt on public land that you read about?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Tony,

I guess it depends on your definition of "very few." Most writers don't live in the West, and they don't hunt there unless it is an industry sponsored hunt. Maybe you know dozens of writers who live in NY and go on a DIY elk hunt every year; I don't.

But the point is far too many of these kinds of stories are written by guys who have less experience than many readers. Let's put it this way: what is the last DIY elk hunt on public land that you read about?

You said nothing about where the writers lived. Once again, your comment in quotes: "For that matter, there are very few writers who could go out and shoot an elk on public land without a guide."

So back to what YOU said:

Dozens of writers who hunt elk DIY live in the West. And yes, having been in this business for 40+ years, I know most of them personally and several, such as Bob Robb, live right here in AZ.

The problem is your data set is too limited and basically related only to the articles you read in the publications you see. There are many more publications and writers, and many of the latter would take exception to your broad-brush painting.

In contrast, I have mixed with hundreds of my peers in person over the years and for many years. I've also hunted with a bunch of them, including Boddington, Gresham, Robb and others. All of them, plus Zumbo have been friends for 35+ years. When I met Van Zwoll at his first ever writers' conference, he was a wet-behind-the-ears young guy just getting started in the writing business. Same for John Barsness

Off the top of my head, below is just a short list of other writers who I know personally and are accomplished DIY hunters. I won't include those who are now dead.

John Barsness
Ron Spoomer
Dwight Schuh
Mike Francis
Allan Tarvid
Glenn Titus
Gary Turbak
Ralph Lermayer
Bill Monroe
Pat Wray
Mark Kaiser
Brett Prettyman
John Beath
Sam Fadala
Chris Madson
Tom McIntyre

Let me know if you need more.

Lastly, I have no idea what experience has to do with a DIY hunt vs a guided hunt. There can be any one of a number of factors why someone chooses a guided hunt. That in itself is meaningless as to the hunter's "experience."

In fact, one might guess that someone who does a half-dozen guided hunts will have a great deal more experience and probably learned more than someone who does one DIY hunt, public land or otherwise.

Glad to see this thread. My friend was out here, and say that article last weekend. He is thinking of selling his 30-06 and getting something in a .338 (Lapua is his goal) to be
"enough for elk".
This would be a Nebraska elk hunt, not a mountain one.

I told him to keep the 06, and that if I can do so I will use my 7mm Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
Recently one of the better known outdoor writers wrote a treatsie on what calibers were suitable for elk hunting. ..... The author puts you in a situation where you have spent several thousand dollars on an elk hunt, you've pounded the turf for 10 days with little sleep, food or water & in the fading light of the last day, in the last minute of legal shooting light ..... he also states in the article that the escaping bull is 300 yds away....

After all that expense, time and effort, then to only get a low light 300 yd going away shot - It's possible that the outfitter/guide was in as much danger to get shot as was the elk!

Wonder what caliber the guide would have picked for him in that case?

Tony,

Good list; they should be writing the elk hunting stories. Big oops not including Barsness; I thought about including Ralph. Again, considering the number of writers out there, that is not a huge list. It is certainly less than 10% of the hunting writers out there.

"There can be any one of a number of factors why someone chooses a guided hunt."

Yea, like free. Makes it a lot easier to choose over a DIY. The fact is most readers cannot afford a guide and they are more interested in how they can be more successful in hunting elk on their own. If a guide has a particular technique that works and a writer can communicate that, then I will admit there is value in that. But the position many writers take is that of a subject matter expert when in reality they are not when compared to many of the readers. This is especially true when it comes to Africa, especially dangerous game hunting.

I have learned from my own writing to never underestimate the number of readers out there who know more than I do about a particular subject. That is true of elk hunting and the story mentioned in this thread. Perhaps you feel differently.

Well Perry, now you've taken the gloves off & gotten rude, this was a pretty decent discussion until you decided to be a smart ass. Show me some of your elk & I'll show you 2 for every one you've got. No excuses!
If you've ever hunted elk on public land...and the season is open you would know that elk do NOT meander, if its hunting season & a elk spots you at any distance they are gone, period!
A deer will hold many times, so will a moose, an elk will not & for sure he won't "meander" he will stampede like only elk can do, not once but every single time, trust me.
I've seen at least 200 elk in the last month, any of them that seen me, and the season was still closed, were gone in a heart beat & most were several hundred yds away as I was only scouting.
Again, if you want to get personal show me some elk, surely you have them.

Dick

This isn't personal Dick it's about discussing things as they are written Not as you perceive them! The personal issue is the fact that you think you know more than the author because of your success, which may be true. But it still does not change the fact that you started a thread to put down this author and tout yourself as the end all be all authority on elk behavior on public land, by taking his article out of context. That is what is rude.
For those of us who read the article and comprehended it's stated purpose, we realized it was about hunting with enough gun. So that in a worse case scenario, given any angle and any sized elk, the shot would be a ethical/deadly one. The author even stated he was not saying the smaller calibers would not kill elk. He himself killed elk with a .280, he was simply playing devil's advocate to get people thinking about using calibers with ample penetration for ANY shot. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. And, again, you bring up this notion the elk are running. This was written as a mind exercise, NO RUNNING ELK!!!! He is NOT recalling a specific instance.
As great an elk hunter as you are, are sure you haven't killed 3 for every one of mine .

Perry

all 35 elk were shot on public land the old fashion way a lot of pre season scouting many hours of glassing and a lot of riding on horseback. out here in western montana a lot of the land belongs to the timber companies which makes it private land buy open to the public to hunt. when you live in elk country it is easier than when you have to travel across the country to hunt to find where the elk live year around

Well Perry my boy, it wasn't a put down, he opened it up (wide open) when he backed everyone into a corner by forcing them into using one of his chosen super mags, I replied that if all those things happened at the same time you had better pick his choice.
Second, I notice no one has responded about the old 2000 ft lbs minimum, the author made that statement, this for an elk that might weigh 1000 lbs & that would be a very large bull. If that figure is the "holy grail" we go by then what about a large alaskan moose that might weigh twice that, do we now need 4,000 ft lbs? You can see where this energy thing is headed as we move on up to the really big stuff, no one alive could handle the recoil.
I"ll say it one more time, its a good bullet, placed correctly & then the magic word "penetration".
Having an honest debate is hardly being rude ...that is until the name calling starts. When someone writes this type of stuff its going to get some attention both for & against.
The third thing is, the author said those that reply are usually bragging... read, he doesn't want to hear from those that disagree.
You did read the part about my 6 elk with 7 shots with the 270, several were tough shots, none are ever easy on elk, not on public land.
We usually spend the winter in Bandera, Texas or Arizona, look me up sometime after thanksgiving, I'm not hard to find, just ask Lou, the owner of the Bunkhouse saddle shop in Bandera, its always more fun to look someone in the eye when talking. Funny, I haven't seen one of your elk yet, not one of those keyboard experts are you? Cheers!

quote:

all 35 elk were shot on public land the old fashion way

That's pretty respectable Bill.

quote:

when you live in elk country it is easier than when you have to travel across the country to hunt to find where the elk live year around

That's very true. There is just no substitue for knowing the land and the behavior of the local critters. Living in the area, and having the time to pick your shots, and the horses to pack a critter out as well, these are all a big help. Regardless, 35 elk on public land is still pretty darn good.

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
Well Perry my boy, it wasn't a put down, he opened it up (wide open) when he backed everyone into a corner by forcing them into using one of his chosen super mags, I replied that if all those things happened at the same time you had better pick his choice.
Second, I notice no one has responded about the old 2000 ft lbs minimum, the author made that statement, this for an elk that might weigh 1000 lbs & that would be a very large bull. If that figure is the "holy grail" we go by then what about a large alaskan moose that might weigh twice that, do we now need 4,000 ft lbs? You can see where this energy thing is headed as we move on up to the really big stuff, no one alive could handle the recoil.
I"ll say it one more time, its a good bullet, placed correctly & then the magic word "penetration".
Having an honest debate is hardly being rude ...that is until the name calling starts. When someone writes this type of stuff its going to get some attention both for & against.
The third thing is, the author said those that reply are usually bragging... read, he doesn't want to hear from those that disagree.
You did read the part about my 6 elk with 7 shots with the 270, several were tough shots, none are ever easy on elk, not on public land.
We usually spend the winter in Bandera, Texas or Arizona, look me up sometime after thanksgiving, I'm not hard to find, just ask Lou, the owner of the Bunkhouse saddle shop in Bandera, its always more fun to look someone in the eye when talking. Funny, I haven't seen one of your elk yet, not one of those keyboard experts are you? Cheers!

Not a keyboard expert at all, not really any kind of expert, at least not one I would name myself. Killed 4 elk. 2 with a .308, 1 with a bow and 1 with a 257R. No pictures. I don't have the funds, place or desire to chase elk.
I totally agree with where you are coming from with the energy, placement and penetration kill.
My gripe in this whole thing was with your mis-statement of what this man wrote. No running shot at 300 yards, never says the 270/280 won't kill elk. Pretty simple.
And let me take this opportunity to bow to you as the master elk killer. Hunting is a huge priviledge I don't take lightly when blessed with the chance to do it, I am not going to sit here and brag about it.

Perry

Thats a pretty respectable list! I don't know any of them but know of them. Although I haven't used a rifle in many years I still read their articles. I would say that John Barsness & Ross Seyfried are the 2 most knowledgeable writers living, just my opinion, not trying to argue if someone disagrees.
I read everything both of them write, its no nonsense, first hand experience & always very well done.
The only famous writers I ever met were Elmer Keith, Elgin Gates, Steve Herrett & John Taffin, Herrett didn't do a lot of writing but what a great gentelman!
Elmer Keith, I took this photo in the mid 70's in his trophy room in Salmon, Idaho.



Another cow elk, taken with a custom 270 & 130 gr Hornady, can't remember the distance, seems like less than 200 yds.



Muley doe, late season, taken with the Ruger 44 maggie & 250 gr Keith, she was facing directly away from me, the shot went through her lengthways & exited, about 80 yds distance.



Pretty good antelope for Idaho, one of 12 taken, most were with handguns. This one was with a custom 25/06, one shot, 100 gr Hornady.



More later, still waiting for a south Texas elk photo.

Dick

No response on your mis-statement...just more photos of your favorite person.

As for the photos let me re-state, meaning to say it again. No photos available. That means I do not have any photos to put up on the screen you are looking at. There will be no photos of me with an elk in your computer...running or walking.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
If you've ever hunted elk on public land...and the season is open you would know that elk do NOT meander, if its hunting season & a elk spots you at any distance they are gone, period!
A deer will hold many times, so will a moose, an elk will not & for sure he won't "meander" he will stampede like only elk can do, not once but every single time, trust me.
Dick

I believe you meant the above for me rather than Perry since I was the one to use "meander" in a reply to you.

And I'll stick with what I said; elk -- or any other game for that matter -- won't always react the same way. That means they won't always run when they spot a hunter, especially at 300 yards away.

The last time I was in CO hunting for mule deer, it was also elk season. We came upon a small herd with a couple of young bulls, a 5x5 with a large body, and maybe 7 cows.

They were ok and didn't do much when we spotted each other at about 800 yards. But as soon as we snuck in to about 500, they split. That's just one of my experiences. Most others we were still driving in the truck when we saw elk.

My response to the mis statement! They were 200 yds to begin with, they had to wait for the bull to clear the cows, by then they were in the timber.....ya, lets make it easy & say they didn't move at all, it was still 200 yds!
I did not go after him over the 270 or 280, lets be very clear, I went after the magnumitis that is such a favorite argument of most of the gun writer group, they need to sell articles, again he worked extremely hard to eliminate 51 of the 52 cards, I'll stand by that.
As for photo's of my favorite person, thats exactly what he was saying, if someone replied in the negative. Seems like real photo's of game taken is very intimidating to those who can't back up their experiences. I had lots more game to show with the medium calibers but I'll leave it at that.

Dick

Dick, I'm enjoying the pics! Keep them coming please. I think under a different circumstance, Perry would like seeing pics too, but I really cannot speak for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
My response to the mis statement! They were 200 yds to begin with, they had to wait for the bull to clear the cows, by then they were in the timber.....ya, lets make it easy & say they didn't move at all, it was still 200 yds!
I did not go after him over the 270 or 280, lets be very clear, I went after the magnumitis that is such a favorite argument of most of the gun writer group, they need to sell articles, again he worked extremely hard to eliminate 51 of the 52 cards, I'll stand by that.
As for photo's of my favorite person, thats exactly what he was saying, if someone replied in the negative. Seems like real photo's of game taken is very intimidating to those who can't back up their experiences. I had lots more game to show with the medium calibers but I'll leave it at that.

Dick

Are the pictures for me??? Why???

Perry

I for one am enjoying the pictures!

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
If hunters would just bowhunt elk, these discussions wouldn't be of concern.

Funny yet true.

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
They were 200 yds to begin with, they had to wait for the bull to clear the cows, by then they were in the timber.....ya, lets make it easy & say they didn't move at all, it was still 200 yds!

Dick

Hmmm. Then I guess I misread what you initially wrote:

"The author states that the old 270 is down to only 1800 ft lbs of energy at 200 yds, he also states in the article that the escaping bull is 300 yds away...remember the card trick!"

I saw nothing in your first post that said the elk were 200 yards away. The only mention of 200 yards was in relationship to the energy stats of various cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
They were ok and didn't do much when we spotted each other at about 800 yards. But as soon as we snuck in to about 500, they split. That's just one of my experiences. Most others we were still driving in the truck when we saw elk.

Yup. I've had the same thing happen, usually when the wind wasn't right.

In contrast, on one archery hunt here in AZ I was within 10 yards of a bull where we were literally staring at each other for 45 secs. or more, waiting to see which one would make the next move. I even had a cigarette dangling from my lips. And it wasn't until the bull slowly walked around me and caught my scent that he scampered off. Even at that, I was able to cow call and stop him again at 100 yards. At that point, though, he was probably thinking, "Nope. You fooled me once. Not again," and slowly ambled off into woods.

On another bowhunt in NM, I had two raghorn bulls walk past me while I was leaning against a ponderosa pine tree. One was in front of me and one was behind me. Neither one was more than five yards from me as they walked past. My hunting partner, who was doing the calling from about 30 yards farther back, said they both stopped, looked at me and MEANDERED past him. Unfortunately the herd bull wouldn't leave his cows.

The last bull I killed in AZ (1999 with a rifle) was bedded with two smaller bulls in a cluster of pinyon pines on the side of a ridge, but I didn't know it. I had been glassing a raghorn that was walking on a ridge below and far to the right of them.

When he was no longer in sight, I decided to move to a different glassing point. As soon as I stood to pack up my tripod, the three bedded elk also got up at about 250 yards, but they made the mistake of just standing there and watching me long enough for me to pick up my rifle and put a bullet in the largest of the three.

I think the real issue is PUSH FEED. You need CRF for elk. Right?

so now I am confused,,,is my .303 with 180's @ 2500fps that shoots into 3&1/2"to 4" @ 250 yd's,,gonna kill elk this year, as in the past,,OR NOT!!I have a very nice German made .308,,but that is my BIG gun,for bears and other big game,after all,like gramps said,elk is jest big deer!!,,the .303 was his BIG gun for bear and moose,I already had the .308 when the .303 come down to me,,his deer rifle was a long tom winchester .25/35 ,but he said he didn't shoot too much past 250-300 with it cause it was hard to hit with that far out,,he liked to stay at 200 or a little closer.

Panzer, use that 303 & those 180's with great confidence on elk, you give it the placement, it will give you the penetration.

Dick

Posted 10 September 2010 02:19 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Dick Thompson:

don't know why anyone would want to be a gun writer, somebody's always forcing their hand!


Dick



And the truth FINALLY comes out. You don't like gun writers. You mis-stated the guys whole premise, got called on it and all you could do was post pictures of all YOUR accomplishments (which were never in question). It truly is on a 1st grade level!

Perry

Oh Perry, you are a real hoot! Now I don't like gun writers! Some how we really drifted off the subject. I don't think I've ever disliked any writer & if you read what I said about this one, I said he was a good writer. I also said he sent up a pretty good smoke screen to make his point.
I really was hoping you could come up with a photo of one of your elk, never heard of anyone shooting 4 of them & no photo's. Instead its excuses & personal attacks, I had no idea this was going to cost you so much sleep. Anyway, instead of boring everyone here on the forum, lets just declare you the winner of round one & then you be sure & look me up in Bandera when I get there. I'll be at the Hill Country RV Park on Hwy 16 going towards Kerrville...now don't you forget!

Dick

Nice talking with you.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Tony,

Good list; they should be writing the elk hunting stories. Big oops not including Barsness; I thought about including Ralph. Again, considering the number of writers out there, that is not a huge list. It is certainly less than 10% of the hunting writers out there.

Here's what I wrote to qualify the list: "Off the top of my head.." and "Let me know if you need more."

If you'd like, I can go through the entire 1,200+-member list of the Outdoor Writers Association of America (OWAA) and the 450+-member list of the Professional Outdoor Media Association (POMA) and select the others that I know would fit the criteria. I'm guessing that list would number 200 or more. Many of them are writing elk hunting articles; you merely don't see them all.

And yes, the list I did post was certainly a LOT less than the 10% of the hunting writers. As I said earlier, your database is too small. Plus, that short list is probably not even 2% of the actual writers who cover various hunting topics. Of course, not all of them would meet YOUR criteria to be able to write about elk hunting topics.

quote:

Yea, like free. Makes it a lot easier to choose over a DIY.

Yup. I've seen you often go off on a diatribe about free/sponsored hunts, and I chuckle every time you do. It just shows how you little you know about the outdoor writing business, especially when it comes to making a living at it on a FULL-TIME basis a FREELANCER.

Maybe I can explain it a bit by a little analogy.

Let's say someone is in the widget business (writing), and it's his only source of income. In order to make one widget (article) to sell for $150 (perhaps to Fur, Fish & Game), he needs to buy $5000 worth of materials (guided hunt). If he stretches the material out a bit, he might be able to get another widget or two out of it (another article and/or photos). Although he might get lucky and sell a widget to someone willing to pay a bit more, those opportunities are quite limited in number.

So now he has $5K invested to turn into $450 in income, which amounts to a loss of $4,550. And then in order to keep his sales going, he has to offer other types of widgets, and so on and so forth. And that doesn't even take in the time spent in research (10 days afield), turning the material into widgets (the actual writing) and finding someone who will buy those widgets (beating the bushes for sales). So with a very negative profit base, it won't take long for the widget maker to find another line of work if he wants to feed his family and pay the bills.

Now let's take a wannabe widget maker that isn't real serious; he wants only to dabble in it, a hobby of sorts. He will obviously be someone who already has a lucrative business or other source of a good income. Maybe he also has a working wife to contribute to the bill paying. In any case, he will have plenty of money to spend on that hobby. So for the wannabe widget maker, making a profit isn't a priority and the $5,000 in materials isn't an issue. Thus if he only sells a few widgets over the years, he's content.

Maybe, even with his various limited experience and knowledge of the widget business, he will proclaim expertise in the widget business and might eventually write a treatise titled "How to Become a Widget Maker." Of course, the opening paragraph would have to say something like, "Unless you have plenty of money to start or a steady income, do not get into the widget business because if you buy all the materials, you can't make a profit as a freelance widget maker."

Naturally, a free hunt isn't the only reason a writer hunts with an outfitter/guide. In many cases, it is a REQUIREMENT, such as in Canada, Africa or for certain species or areas in several U.S. states. It's also a matter of convenience in many cases, particularly when hunting the far back country in wilderness areas, etc.

I can't speak for Bryce, but I can for myself in this regards. I began hunting big game at 17 and killed my first whitetail in NY state in 1959 with a 30/30 Marlin 336. I did my first horseback hunt in 1965 -- a DIY into CO's Weminuche Wilderness on rented horses with three other guys. That trip caused me to fall in love with the area. Every year after, my family and I spent two weeks at Vallecito Lake just fishing and kicking back. In 1975, we bought a resort there and I went to work for a local outfitter guiding elk and deer hunters on pack-in horseback trips for the next three years. Our work began in mid-Aug. and didn't end until late November. During the busy summer season, I used the fishing knowledge I had acquired by fishing the lake for 10+ years to guide fishermen who wanted to catch big northern pike.

It was about 25 years after I started hunting before I went on a hunt with an outfitter. By then, I had already killed seven of AZ's 10 big-game species with multiples of several and had done quite a few successful DIY hunts in other states for deer, elk and turkey.

For the most part, whenever I go on an outfitted hunt, I generally hunt on my own where it is legal. But even when I have a guide at my side, a hunt is generally a collaborative effort. Heck, I even glassed up my own tahr in NZ. Often, I have two or three times the knowledge and the experience of the guide. Most times on horseback hunts I also saddle and unsaddle my horse each day.

That said, it sure is nice to get back to camp and have a hot meal waiting that I didn't have to cook and a warm tent or cabin to sleep in.

Lastly, before you even bring it up, for most PROFESSIONAL outdoor writers going on a free or sponsored hunt doesn't translate into a "quid prop quo" arrangement. In fact, the written ethics codes of both writers' organizations I cited forbid soliciting free hunts or products with a promise of favorable ink.

Now, that doesn't mean we don't write about them if we CHOOSE to do so. Yet in some cases, nothing about a particular guided hunt will get into print.

Incidentally, the majority of free hunts or products result from the contacts by guides/outfitters or companies with the pro writers, not vice-versa.

When I was a state editor for Outdoor Life in the 1980s, I had to literally turn down offers for free or heavily discounted hunts. Even at that, not all the outfitted hunts I've been on have been free or discounted. Both my trip to Africa and NZ fall into that category, having paid the full tariff for both. Same for a bunch of stateside hunts.

Most of the solicitations from writers for freebies generally originate from the part-timers, many of whom do not come under any written ethics code because they don't belong to the writers' groups. We call them product whores: "Give me a free rangefinder and I'll mention it in my articles."

Often, just reading one of their general hunting or fishing articles that is filled with gratuitous, unnecessary product mentions is a tip-off of what they got free or bought cheap. Instead of saying, "I looked through my binoculars," they write, "I looked through my Leica 10x40s." The rest of the article will have similar brand mentions when a generic item name -- rangfinder, rifle, arrow, bow, etc. would have sufficed.

Instead, readers get to see, "I lifted my PSE Super Duper X66 and nocked an Easton 2800 carbon shaft with a Bonebuster 3-blade point to my custom Micky Flynn cable. After peering through my One-Eye Periscope sight, I let the arrow, which I had fletched myself with a Bohning Dilly tool, fly."

A lot of these types have had one or two articles published in the "vanity" type magazines that don't even pay their contributors. So they quickly become "outdoor writers," despite that a good number of them can't spell or punctuate a sentence.

Product review articles are obviously different.

quote:

The fact is most readers cannot afford a guide and they are more interested in how they can be more successful in hunting elk on their own. If a guide has a particular technique that works and a writer can communicate that, then I will admit there is value in that. But the position many writers take is that of a subject matter expert when in reality they are not when compared to many of the readers. This is especially true when it comes to Africa, especially dangerous game hunting.I have learned from my own writing to never underestimate the number of readers out there who know more than I do about a particular subject. That is true of elk hunting and the story mentioned in this thread. Perhaps you feel differently.

But see, the topic of the article and this thread is not about HOW to hunt elk; it's about a very SPECIFIC scenario WHILE hunting elk that could occur on either a guided hunt or a DIY hunt. In either case, the hunter would be the one facing the choice of taking the shot or not under the given circumstances. The only important aspects Bryce laid out was the distance, elk's position and the time to make the shot. Those all could be relevant at any time during a hunt.

All Towsley did was offer HIS opinion on the cartridges HE thinks will best do the job. And he surely has enough experience with hunting, firearms and ballistics to offer such an opinion.

Whether the guide wiped Towsley's butt that morning or he did it himself, the scenario wouldn't change. IOW, the article wasn't about how he arrived at that point in the hunt; the gist was what would happen at that point. The animal in the scenario could have just as easily been a moose, brown bear or eland.

It's obvious you believe that writers should be an experts on a particular topic before they can write about it. But nothing is further from the truth. If that were the case many writers in the various genre would be out of the "widget" business real quick. The key to a successful writing CAREER is research, whether it is hands on, through reading or talking to other experts. In most cases, it's mix of all of them.

Maybe you saw the old movie "Man's Favorite Sport" that starred Rock Hudson and Paula Prentice. Hudson's character, Roger Willoughby, is a well-known fishing expert who works for Abercrombie & Fitch Co, and he wrote a very successful book on fly fishing.

Prentice plays a public relations lady who wants Willoughby to take part in a prestigious fishing tournament. He then reveals he's a phony; he's never fished in his life. The tournament becomes sort of slapstick humor as they ineptly go about camping and fishing.

Anyway, the point being that hands-on experience isn't the only criterion to successful writing.

That said, if anyone wishes to see if I walk the walk in regards to hands-on experience, feel free to look at these old threads.

Outdoor Writer's Room

A Few Test Shots

I'm quite comfortable in my own skin and with what I know and what I write about. Even at that, I don't expect everyone to agree with me 100% of the time. I would imagine the same goes for Bryce.

Now just for the sake of disclosure, Bryce is a friend of mine. In fact, five years ago we were elected by a vote of about 400 of our peers to serve together on the steering committee that put POMA together. Regardless, his friendship has no bearing on this issue. My opinion would apply to any writer who wrote what he did.

I did invite Bryce to visit here. Don't know if he will, though. BTW, did you know he builds many of the rifles he uses to hunt?

Here's a photo at our first POMA organizational meeting at the White Oak Plantation in AL. Everyone in it has known the others for many years.

Man, I can see why ya'll aren't on TV.

I kid, I kid...just a joke .

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Man, I can see why ya'll aren't on TV.

I kid, I kid...just a joke .

Perry

Hey, I never said we were pretty -- just talented.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Man, I can see why ya'll aren't on TV.

I kid, I kid...just a joke .

Perry

Hey, I never said we were pretty -- just talented.

Perry

Tony,

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I will concede Bryce has just as much of a right to state his opinion on elk cartridges as anyone else. And I will concede my quantitative term of “very few” might have been a bit harsh, so I apologize for that. But when I think of elk writers, the names that pop to mind are Zumbo (whose mistake you will recall I have vigorously defended here on AR), Van Zwoll, etc. If a writer is writing a story on elk cartridges, then a mention of his/her “elk resume” would be beneficial. I mentioned the story about Clay Harvey (I think you know why he is no longer writing) because it represents the epitome of a writer simply stating his opinion with zero field experience. I subscribe to just about every hunting pub out there and honestly would not put Towsley into the category of expert elk hunter. Perhaps being an expert doesn’t matter to some readers, but it does to me. Maybe I am wrong, but if I recall (remember, I tossed the mag into the blue bin) he never stated how many elk he has killed. My point here is that one can get excellent advice from posters on AR who have a ton of experience on DIY – which are very different from guided hunts. I have shot only seven elk – five in Colorado on DIY hunts when I lived in MN (7x6, 6x6, 5x5, 5x4, and a spike) as well as two with a guide in Idaho (6x6 and a 4x4). Incidentally, the 4x4 was shot because the guide said to shoot; he thought it was bigger. I am clearly not an elk expert, but I am fairly experienced using a .338 on elk. Does that qualify me to write a “what is best for elk” story? I don’t think so…

Dick Metcalf once told me when he first started writing he proposed ten stories on subjects he didn’t know much about. He then applied himself to learn as much as possible about the subjects of those stories. Back then, he became one of the premier handgun writers. If he were to have written a story on elk hunting, I would have had the same thought: what? Today, he focuses on the AR platform – and is probably the “go to guy” when it comes to using AR rifles on game. But still, if he were to write a story on elk hunting using AR rifles, I would ask the same question: “How many elk?” Hopefully he would reveal that in his story.

I think it is ironic the best “research story” I have ever seen is Boddington’s chapter on PH African cartridge choices in Safari Rifles. If anyone can wax on about African cartridges, it is him, and yet he took the time to conduct an exhaustive survey – at least twice. Sorry, but I am not interested in a writer’s opinion on what is best for Cape buffalo after shooting one or two animals. Am I right? Perhaps in my own mind…but as you say, it is my opinion for better or worse.

You stated in one of the posts above that there many reasons why a writer would go on a guided hunt, but your explanation above seems to focus only on one: it is impossible to pay for all those hunts as a writer and still make a profit. I would agree. But it still means the average story is somewhat disconnected from the experiences of the average hunter. Is it any wonder so many potential readers have given up on print media and just hang out on AR and similar sites? Burying our heads in the sand and wishing it weren’t so isn’t going to fix the problem.

I am fully aware how free and sponsored hunts work because I go on one at least every year. I am not a full time writer, but I am on the staff of one magazine and I am self employed, so I can go without worrying about vacation time. I used to write a lot more freelance stuff than I do now, but less than one percent of my income comes from writing so I write less and less each year. I write because I like to write. You are correct; no one has ever told me, or even asked me, to write favorably about a product, or even write a story period. But we all know if I don’t write any stories, I won’t be invited in the future.

Let’s talk about the influence of free. I own a small software company whose revenues come from Fortune 500 companies such as International Paper. You know what IP’s policy is on vendors like us buying or giving anything to their employees? If the “gift,” normally lunch or dinner, is over $25 I cannot pick up the bill. I would love to be able to take some of my customers on hunting trips because I could write off the whole hunt and heavily influence the sales decision. But that is exactly why corporations in the US don’t allow this kind of behavior – it influences the sales process.

It is interesting you mention Fur-Fish-Game. I used to write quite a bit for the magazine. You won’t write a trapping story for that magazine unless you really know what you are doing, even if you have a PhD in journalism. And mentioning products by name was (and still might be) frowned upon. In fact, Mitch Cox wasn’t terribly interested in any kind of guided hunt story unless it was a budget hunt. His laser focus was on providing practical stories for his readers. He wrote me a few years ago asking me to write again, but I just don’t have the time.

I know writers cannot afford to pay for all of their own hunts. Time also makes DIY hunts difficult as well. But disclosure of who is providing what would be nice. As for writers mentioning product names, there are plenty of staff and/or full time writers who do this. I mention product names in the magazine for which I am a contributing editor, but if I get something free or at a discount, I now state that and let the reader decide if that matters. I will admit this is a change from my own past practice, but as a matter of ethics it is just the right thing to do. So far, the PR and suppliers with whom I work have not complained. Nor has my editor.

I am not part of the outdoor video business, but viewers aren’t left wondering who paid for what: it is patently clear at the beginning and end of the show. I don’t think it hurts viewership at all; I find it refreshing. And I have also stated that if I owned an outdoor company, I would spend the money marketing on these shows if I thought it would help sales.

As for Bryce Towsley responding or not, I can understand why he would choose not to. He is probably better off focusing on writing his next story. Criticism on the internet is no different than a letter to the editor (except is stays around forever); I was once criticized by a Fur-Fish-Game reader for taking a shot at a caribou trotting at 300 yards. I killed that caribou with a single shot, but the reader had a right to his opinion, and if I lost sleep over it I should probably stop writing.

Anyway, I spent far too much time on yet another “diatribe.” Good thing I like to write.