I am in need of securing an adequate back up pistol for an upcoming hunt next year. I will need something that will provide stopping power for that undesired up close and personal encounter with Mr. Brown Bear. It makes no sense to under buy, but at the same time I don't need to carry 4 pounds of steel if slightly less will do. IF and I say IF a 41 magnum or 44 magnum loaded with the new "hot" Cor-Bon bullets will work then I have the opportunity of getting these calibers in an "ultra-lite" weight models. If the calibers aren't enough or I JUST have to have the heavier frame gun to absorb recoil, then the 454 Casull seems to be the choice. There is little difference in weight between the 44 Mag and 454 Casull in the large frame stainless models.

There are no guarantees on this one, bullet placement and the ability to close the deal under the circumstances will make the difference irrespective of what caliber I am shooting. I am just looking for feedback on the adequacy of the 41 & 44 magnum calibers shoved into these new high tech ultra strong/ultra lite titanim/aluminum frames that weigh less than 1-1/2# when used as back up for large and dangerous game. I am confident the 454 Casull will be more than adequate, but it will also be a load to carry, all day for 10 days.

As always I look forward to the varied input I will receive.

Are you hunting bears with a handgun?

Are you hunting with a bow and want a handgun 'just in case?'

If you are hunting bears with a rifle, I'd say that to carry a pistol would just be extra weight that you don't need.

Gatehouse brought up good questions. If you are rifle hunting, what pistol could you carry as a back up??? I've always thought the back up gun was supposed to hit harder than the hunting rifle. You hunt with a 300 mag and the guide carries a 375...just in case.

Please don't take this wrong...I'm not flaming, just observing and commenting. Food for thought so to speak. Myself, in lieu of a pistol, I'd carry more rifle.

I am hunting with a 375 H&H, single shot Ruger. Rifles are difficult to wheel around and use in close and tight situations, especially a tent.

The purpose of the pistol is strickly as a safety net to the use of the rifle.

Buy a bolt action...a pistol is better than nothing but poor bear medicine at close range at best. A HP rifle dwarfs the pistol's ability...
You simply don't get into serious stopping power in a handgun until you you get a 454 and above. And then ACCURATE rapid fire is problematic due to heavy recoil. Trust me...you don't see PH's whip out pistols to stop charging waterbuffalo 5 feet away...
I'd sleep well with a rifle by my side any day of the week.

PS...it makes a dandy club if you run out of bullets!

Try a S&W mountain gun in 45lc or 44mag. I wish I never sold mine

I have a Ruger Redhawk 7 1/2 in barrel 44. If I was taking it with, which I would, It be loaded with 270 gr sp gold dots. Like mine, it is heavy Loaded with 6 shells but I carry mine all the time. Besides I'd probably try hunting a bear with the pistol.

I posted a question last week on handgunreview.com about the new Smith & Wesson 329PD Scandium .44 Magnum revolver. This typical of the responses I got:

"Honest man, No joke. You don't ever want to shoot it if you don't have to. It comes with both wood and Hogue grips. They say " IT HURTS LIKE HELL TO SHOOT IT" Even specials are no fun. Most testers fire one round and put it down. They call it somewhere between torture and no fun at all to shoot. The S&W 500 mag has have as much percieved recoil It's a great trail gun because it's light. If you gotta save your life.. Great critter stopper that won't weigh you down. But you won't want to shoot it just for fun.

Doc"

I carry a S&W model 629 .44 mag for backup. A pistol in bear country is a very good idea. Especially times when you are without your rifle in your hands. Like when skinning an animal or in your tent.

That is exactly why I carry mine. I keep mine loaded with a 300 grain hard cast bullet moving about 1000 fps. It does have some recoil and you would not be able to shoot this load in a lighter pistol. I've done a lot of practice with this gun and load and I can get 6 rounds in the target at 25 yards pretty fast. More than likely a bear attack is going to happen at even closer range than that.

[ 11-15-2003, 18:09: Message edited by: KY23 ]

I want to relate a short story to this thread... When I was a boy (18) I was growing up in a remote part of S.E. alaska. Our island (Kupp.) did not have brown bears, but tons of blackies. I was fishing at the mouth of a river and had propped my 458 up against a tree about 15 feet behind me. Well as some of you know, bears can be very quite. When I paused a turned to look at my gear, a very large Blackie was inbetween me and my gear, just sitting there like a dog, waiting for me to pull a fish for (I had been warned and this was, is, learned behavour I guess in some parts). It took alot of nerve to stand up and walk by that bear to get my 458, and I just wanted to jump in the stream. I had wished I had dads redhawlk that day. I luckly scared the bear off without a single shot fired after getting my 458 back.

That said... I still didnt carry a "backup" very often, instead, I just made damn sure I had a rifle close. I carried a pistol when hunting with one, but they were just to much of a bother when I was hunting with a rifle. They are not a bad idea in some situations (like mine above) but if I have a rifle in hand I WOULD NEVER SHOOT A WOUNDED BEAR with a pistol instead.

In Alaska I usually carry a 629 4" in a shoulder holster. It is also usually under a coat or a sweater so it would be hard to get at in a hurry. They are handy on a 4 wheeler for the time you come around a cornner and a Bear is standing in the trail (true story). Getting your rifle out of the scabbard is not always easy. A 44 is better than nothing but not much better. Don't forget it has less energy than a 30-30.

For your intended use, tent, close quarters etc get a handier rifle with more cartridges.

I guess it's obvious, but why use a single-shot when you're in need of a back-up? You could use the pistol money and the Ruger as a trade-in and buy something else. I can't imagine loving any rifle so much I'd stake my life on it.

Second point: although I've heard tons of stories over dozens of years about the merits of this pistol or that as a "back-up" for dangerous game, I have never actually heard of anybody using one to stop a charging bear. Yeah, I've heard the "know-somebody" stories, but how often does this trick actually work?

Third point: if you want to sleep with a gun, why not one of those 18-inch-barrelled 45-70 modifications done by Wild West in Alaska? If I recall, you can shoot four, 400-grain bullets as fast as you can work the lever.

kk

kk

BHW
I highly recommend you carry a handgun. With the exception of 1992 I have hunted the last 13 years in Grizzly and Black Bear country, hunting Black Bears in Montana and have hunted 45 days in Alaska [1 trip for Caribou 1 for Brown Bear]. Even on my deer lease I always carry a handgun. My wife has been on 10 of the Montana hunts, there and on our deer lease she always carries a handgun.
Don't leave home without it.
We have been within 30 yards of 5 different Grizzly Bears in Montana, one Griz and one Black snuck up to within 10 or 12 feet of us while we were glassing for other Black Bears. They are very quiet.
Now which one and how to carry it. I offer the following.
A double action S&W 4" 44 Mag is the best choice. If necessary you can maintain a tight grip and fire it DA with one hand from an ackward position with out the recoil breaking any bones in your hand or dislodging the pistol from your grip.
With @300grain hard lead bullets [either your reloads, Garretts Hammerheads, Federal Castcore, Buffalo Bore, Core-Bon etc] you will have the penetration you will nead. I might prefer a 454 or a 475 if I was Hunting with a handgun, but I would still carry the 4" 44 for back up.
A friend of mine has one of the new scandium 44's, I have not shot it yet, he says it is painfull. His exact words were "it hurts me". He hunts wild pigs with a 416 Rem Mag. so he is no wimp.
For the last couple of years my wife and I have been carrying the S&W 4" Mountain Gun. It does feel lighter in the holster than the regular 29/629 and the 300 grain loads are not painful.
As for carrying it the best way I have found is the crossdraw holster by DeSantis. This holster has a radical rake that is comfortable to walk with with a pack in steep country.
I leave my coat unbuttoned/zipped a few inches up from the bottom. Even in heavy rain or snow the pistol has never gotten wet and is instantly available.
I have no problem with you using the Ruger No1 for bear.
The main advantage of the pistol is that it is with you at all times. When my wife and I sleep in a tent in Bear country we wear our 44's in the sleeping bag with us. If you do not, if you are attacked at night you will never reach your pistol. Not paranoid just prepared.
You may not know you have "Bear Trouble" until the Bear has knocked you down, no matter what long gun you have it will be worthless in that situation.
Carry the S&W 4"....Every where you go.
If attacked try and make a brain shot.
Do not shoot all your rounds while the Bear is too far away to make them count.
One shot in the right place will do much more good than 6 in the wrong place.
It might be a good idea to watch Mark Sullivan's tapes.

[ 11-15-2003, 20:40: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

BHW: I notice in your message that you're from the Lower 48. Given that, it means you'll be hunting with a guide for your animal unless you have relatives within the 2nd degree of kindered living here. I'm assuming you're going on a guided hunt therefore you shouldn't need a handgun as backup. Your camp won't be located near a trail or a creek that may have a salomon run. I've been very close to these critters numerous times & believe me, a handgun would be virtually worthless in a dicey situation. Better to rely on your rifle. We were jumped at about 10 yds. in Oct. while elk hunting on Afognak by a big boar. My partner & I both had .338 Mags. The bear never growled or snapped his teeth but he did snort about 4-5 times. We could see his breath. We didn't shoot & he turned & slowly meandered up the slope. This is the 2nd time in my life I've felt like I was holding a pop gun when the chips were down. In 1 lunge, that bear could have been on us. While we were in the area, we discovered an old hunting camp located on a bear trail even with a meat pole hanging, stupid, stupid, stupid.
Want to add that my advice is to forget the handgun and rely on your rifle. I'm willing to bet that you're not going to kill and/or turn a bear at handgun range with 1 or perhaps 2 shots. The big bears are very seldom killed with 1 rifle shot so how do you expect to do it with a handgun? Let your guide worry about that, that's why you're paying him the big bucks anyway. My 2 cents. Bear in Fairbanks

[ 11-16-2003, 05:00: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]

I think the rifle is for when the bear is running at you, and the back up pistol is for when the bear is on top of you...

BHW,

I have lived in the Alaskan bush for over 20 years with brown bears literally roaming through my yard at will. Your chances of a serious encounter with a bear are miniscule.

Particularly if you are hunting with a big rifle you really don't need the pistol. If you carry the pistol in the field it will do one of several things. In a belt holster it will be pulling your pants down, keep you from sitting down comfortably and always be under some clothing which defeats the purpose of the pistol. If it is in a shoulder holster I promise you that it will never be in the right place. When the shoulder holster is next to your body all your outside clothes will be over it and if you wear it on the outside of your coat you will get hot and have to remove it. Everybody I have known who has bought a shoulder holster ends up carrying the gun around in theirs hands. Lastly even a moutain gun is more weight than you want to carry in addition to your personal stuff in the field. On a typical brown bear hunt I think you will want to travel as light as possible and a 2-4 pound pistol tugging at you all day will be noticed.

Don't get me wrong I like pistols and have had a great deal of fun with them caribou hunting etc. A big handgun can kill anything with good bullets but they are not good defensive weapons.

If you still want to bring your big pistol make sure it is double action for fast shooting and is loaded with the heaviest hardcast bullet load that your gun will shoot.

Have a great hunt!

BHW
Let me add that I wear the DeSantis crossdraw holster on my pants belt, ie I do not use a seperate pistol belt. With your coat adjusted as I have mentioned the revolver is always accessable. Even if you are knocked down, [or knocked off your horse on a pack in hunt] the revolver will stay in place because of your pant loops.
Also get some Speer Shotshells, they work great for Grouse and other small game.
My wife and I hunt year round, and always carry our 44 revolvers, we wear them all the time without any inconvience or bother.
In a close quarters confrontation with a Bear you will probably only get one shot off with your rifle [two if you had a double ] with the 44 revolver you have 6 shots. I am no whiz at statistics, but ain't that like a 600% increase in your survival odds?
Get you a S&W 4" 44 and don't leave home without it. Wear it all the time, even in camp.

Listen to N E 450 No2. Its better to have it and deal with a couple pounds. I had a custom crossdraw holster made for mine and it rides my hip very comfortably. No bother at all.

I don't see myself going home saying that carrying an extra two pound pistol ruined my trip. It could save your life though.

Take the above advice. A 4" S&W with good heavy hard cast bullets is a perfect setup. It might not pack the punch of a rifle but it sure is a hell of a lot more handy. I sleep with mine even while hunting in KY. Our black bear population has really grown in the south east part of the state where I do 90% of my camping and hunting. I've seen several and a woman was killed a couple years ago in Daniel boone national forest.

I also never go without my .44 when hunting in the Nort West. I have yet to go on an Alaska trip but will change that this spring or fall. Just common sense to have good backup.

Most hunters I see while moose hunting in September carry handguns in shoulder holsters, usually .44 Magnums, but a few carry .454's.

I carry a Freedom Arms .454 Casull (7-1/2" barrel, MagnaPorted). It does not feel heavy on my shoulder, because I carry it in a bandoleer holster. Of my two hunting partners, one carries his Taurus .454 Casull in a hip holster, and the other keeps .44 Magnum in his tent.

For backup, you should not load the handgun with hollow point bullets or bullets that may expand too fast. You want the toughest 300-grain .454 Casull bullets you can find, and Federal and other ammo companies can give you the details on their ammo.

The bandoleer holster I use should be sized to fit your height. This is very important, because the shoulder belt is adjustable in case you want to wear it over or under a coat. The bandoleer holster is called "Bandito," and you can see it at the following site (keep in mind that you may need an optional ammo holder, and the holster):

http://www.pistolpackaging.com/productdetails.asp?pid=135

I can’t think of a worst thing to do than bet my life on a handgun for protection against bears. Most people under stress don’t shoot any handgun well. I’ve been in law enforcement long enough to have seen officers that could dot an eye at 50 yards on the range that couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn under stress. Sure a .41 or .44 magnum will do the job at close range IF YOU KEEP YOU COOL and put the bullet where it belongs. A bear that knocks you down isn’t going to give you much chance to grab your handgun, you are going to be way to busy protecting the back of your neck and head to bother trying to grab your handgun. You don’t trust your Ruger No.1 then get a bolt action, you’ll be better off. Forget the handgun, it isn’t going to be much help. Just going to lull you into a false since of security and that is the most dangerous thing of ll. Lawdog

BHW [and you others]
No matter what situation you find your self in you are better off with the 44 revolver than without it. With it you have a chance, without it you are FOOD.

Just remember...
THE DEAD KNOW ONLY ONE THING....
IT IS BETTER TO BE ALIVE....

I wouldn't know, becaude I have never even seen a wild bear but while a friend and I were talking about a self guided Alaska or hunter Host hunt in the Yukon the topic came up.

I would take a .454Casul, I currently own a Taurus but would like to acquire a Freedom.

The idea would be to keep it on a horse, quad, and tied to your wrist in your sleeping bag or in some other easy to reach, safe place.

Now that I think it through a loaded handgun tied to your wrist in a sleeping bag doesn't sound like a great idea though.

But if a bear comes and sits on you from outside the tent, you want it to be close at hand.

We would be rifle hunting, so while you're actually out I wouldn't carry it but in the event of having to quarter a moose I would like to strap it to my side before begining.

I saw a thread on the handguns forum about .454 trail guns, basically cut down Rugers to 4".

Painfull, but handy.

Otherwise a full length wouldn't be a bad idea as it would be a little easier to shoot more accuratly, you are probably only going to get one shot.

[ 11-16-2003, 02:42: Message edited by: EXPRESS ]

Mickey, I think you're probably right.

http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000644

Check out the link to the 454 trail gun thread. Some very handy looking pistols indeed. These are what you would want for such a trip!

i have killed a bigg b.b., and seems to meat point blank range i would be better off shooting myself as no pistol would stop that big of a bear that close before killing u.

that said i carry a colt python w/ hogue grips 4" .357 w/ 180 gr +P+. i can control and hit w/ this even rapid fire up close. i would rather hit w/ this setup than miss w/ one of the bigger hand cannons. rapid fire under high stress would be pretty difficult w/ a pistol u don't have a lot of rounds thru due to recoil, cost, pain, noise, etc.

i am leaving for kodiak monday morning and am trying to decide right now whether to take it or not as weight is a problem w/ all the planes.

cold zero

Your back up for bear ought to be ten rounds of .375 on a belt slide ammo carrier.

And I agree, get a bolt action with at least three rounds down.

Pistols and revolvers are needless weight when you have a rifle at hand.

BHW
I just told my wife how some of the people on this forum were telling you not to carry the 44. She said "There nuts.... tell him he better sleep with it too".We have seem many Bears "up close". Even when holding one of my double rifles the 44 in the holster felt real good.
BHW, I also carry 2 speed loaders on my belt.

All this is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is carry a handgun every where you go, in town, or out in the tundra! The only difference is the type carried for each place, but I carry every day of every week,of every year!

That being said, I carry a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8ths " 41 mag, with hard cast 220 gr bullets with 17.0 grs of 2400 powder, and mag primers. I carry it in a military "TANKER" chest rig, made for a 45 Gov model auto pistol, the Ruger fits perfectly. This rig does not interfere with the shoulder straps, or belly straps of my pack frame. It is carried on the left chest, and just inside my coat, or rain gear, and is with me at all times when in Alaska. There are many times when a rifle is simply inconvenient to have close. How about when skinning, or when cooking, or in fact squatting out on the tundra. As 450 says, a rifle is very hard to handle inside a Eurica WindRiver tent, with a Brownie snuffeling around your head just on the other side if a .060" thick piece of nylon!

Think! While lying on your back with a big brown bear, that you had no idea was within 50 miles of you,on your chest, would you like to have a 41 mag that you could get to, or a rifle that is someplace in the weeds where it was knocked by the bear?

THINGS THAT MAKE YOU GO, HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Seems there is widely vaired opinion on this topic. I think I will be taking a hand gun. Now the question is what caliber and do I use the new light weight materials to reduce packing weight or stick with the SS. Doubt I will have any opportunity to test fire an ultra light weight pistol for control and recoil. I use to own a SS 4" S&W 44 mag, so I know all about that. Will most likely be chambering COR-BON HC bullets. My calibers to choose from are 41 mag, 44 mag or 454 Casull. I will carry the gun when hunting and I will keep close to me in the tent at night.

Input is welcomed and needed.

BHW,

I am a handgun hunter and have been for years. Some people cannot shoot handguns very well and try to project their inabillity on to others. Others have noexperience with a handgun and have no idea what kind of damage that can be done with the appropriate bullets. Glad you are sticking to your guns!!! (both figuratively and literally)

As far as caliber choice is concerned, I think you will be good with any of the three you mentioned. The 44 would be better than the 41. the 454 is better than the 44. Here is why: HEAVIER BULLETS. Get the heaviest bullet you can shoot. Velocity is a constantly deminishing variable. The only constants are bullet weight and caliber.(John Linebaugh's theory) Rely on these two constants.
An even better choice maybe the 480 ruger or 475 linebagh loaded to 480 ruger levels with the 400 grain bullets.

Whatever you choice loaded it with the heaviest, stongest bullts available in that caliber.

As far as weight of the gun is concerned. I would shy away from the alloys and titanium type guns. I prefer the heft of a steel revolver for recoil control. In a properly designed and fitted holster the weight will not be that uncomfortable.

The Ruger No. 1 is a great hunting rifle. Enjoy your hunt with it.

David

The .44 mag is a great round. Brass and a very good selection of bullets are out there. Its cheap to reload and there are lots and lots of proven loads.

I think the .41 mag, .44 mag and .45 Colt are the minimum I'd carry in BB country. All those loaded with heavy hard cast bullets. Stay away from hollow points and in my opinion jacketed bullets. You want as much penetration as possible.

A S&W 629 in .44 mag would be perfect or a S&W 625 in .45 colt if you reload. Either one would be just fine for a backup pistol. If you were hunting with your pistol as your primary weapon I wouldn't carry anything smaller than a .454.

When you say you won't have time to test fire a new pistol what do you mean? I would not recommend taking a backup pistol you have never test fired.

I don't think I would have an opportunity to test fire an ultralite before I would have to purchase one in order to determine if the recoil is more than I can handle.

Regardless of what revolver I get, I will have spent sufficient time at the range to have the confidence in its use before I take it to AK.

I just fired an ultralight .44 a couple weekends ago. Not a friendly gun.

I'd stick with a S&W Mountain Gun as the lightest if you are planning to shoot mag loads. That S&W ultralight really rattled my teeth.

I'd consider the ultralight if you had to have a .44 concealment gun...but since this is a mountain gun I'd go with a full sized stainless pistol.

Good luck

BHW
I have been carrying a S&W mod 29 4" blue for over 30 years with no problems. A couple of years ago I got a Mountain Gun for my wife to replace the 629 she had been carrying. The Mountain Revolver does feel a little lighter in the holster. In fact I liked her's so much I got one for myself. It does have more recoil than the standard 29/629 but it is controlable and not painful [hint, use rubber grips]. If you already have a 4" S&W 44 Mag just use it. I WOULD recommend you get the DeSantis cross draw holster. They are kinda expensive but it is the best holster I have found. And I have several big boxes of holsters, the De Santis is the most comfortable. Use @300 grain hard cast bullets and you can walk around Alaska with a Salmon hanging from your neck in complete safety [assuming you can shoot ].

"Handguns and Bears," reminds me of the oft asked question, "What's the best firearm in a survival situation?" Debaters will post that the "best survival gun" is a .22LR (rifle or pistol, 12 gauge shotgun, and every other caliber and configuration up to, and even .338s and .375s, ad nauseum. Everyone has a different opinion.

In like manner, the same discussions (arguments)are found on "bears and handguns."

Some people say, "Carry one," other say, "Might as well use a slingshot as to try and stop a bear with a handgun!"

I say, if you wanna carry a handgun in bear country, whether or not it is Black bear, or Brown/Griz country, carry one! Don't worry about those who would laugh at you, or "pooh-pooh" your decision. Afterall, should YOU really NEED that handgun to save YOUR life, those who laughed at you, will still be sitting in front of their monitors and keyboards in a nice warm house, pounding down a Bud, having fun on the Internet, while you'll be fighting for your life.

Some Alaska residents carry them; others don't. The only real advice I have to give is to go to a gun shop/sporting goods store, where there is a bear's skull. Study it. Note that in a frontal shot, the bullet must hit in the nose mouth area, as that's how a bear will come at you, with that head up. (You're his target, don't forget.) Practice to drive that bullet up the nose/mouth channel into the brain. That bear will drop like a sack of fresh corn.

When practicing, try to practice on some small, moving targets at 10 to 15 feet, so you know where your bullet hits at that distance... and what it's like to hit a small, moving target.

Have fun on your trip, and carry what you feel best about.

L.W.

[ 11-17-2003, 00:15: Message edited by: Leanwolf ]

Two more cents: Having shot a 454 and owning a 500 Linebaugh Redhawk (not Super Redhawk) I would opt for momentum over velocity. I'm obviously biased toward my ownership of a 500 vs someone else's pistol but I figure you're talking about 10 ft or less so velocity defers to bullet weight and 435 grains @ 1300 will hit much much harder than 300 or 350 @ 1700, IMHO.

[ 11-17-2003, 02:03: Message edited by: tiggertate ]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is the bad habit of thinking that your 4' 44 carry gun can actually replace your rifle. One thing to remember is that it can't. If you are pcking out 60lbs of Moose meat don't think that your handgun will replace your 10# rifle and leave the rifle at camp.

If you are having problems with bears, don't leave your rifle by the fire when you go to get wood because you have your handgun and the rifle is so cumbersome to pack.

A 44 is still, at best, less than a 30-30.