+3, hence my post. She should not have to don orange to take her dog for a walk. Another reason I never, ever wear camo when hunting, to many trigger happy dumbass's out and about. I hope they hang this guy by his thumbs and nuts.

Disregarding the tragic consequences, it was a helluva shot. Hard to believe that a man with the level of experience needed to make that shot would be stupid enough to take it without KNOWING it was a deer. All the more reason he should face charges.

Perhaps it was a lucky shot. Even a blind hog get a root even now & then.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Perhaps it was a lucky shot. Even a blind hog get a root even now & then.

Well, maybe "lucky" is not the right word.

Hunter has been charged with second-degree manslaughter, a C-level felony with a maximum sentence of five to 15 years in prison. Full story at: The Buffalo News

This gives more details which I find interesting.

First, the state in question differs from my home state in terms of shooting hours. In FL, one can shoot 30 minutes AFTER sunset. Except in unusual cases, it is virtually impossible to make adequate indentification of a deer unless they are very close when one gets close to the end of legal shooting time. Based upon this article, it was even later. How he could see at that distance in the dark is beyond me.

He deserves what he gets.

Here in Texas our legal shooting hours are 30 minutes before sunrise until 30 minutes after sunset.

Deal is, over the years scope quality has improved to the point that, while not legal, that window can be pushed by several minutes both directions.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

It’s easy to point finger..

200 yards with as single shot handgun, that is pure negligence.

Would you be waiting for the real story if it had been one of your family members?

CHC, The way I understand this is the guy was shooting after legal shooting hours, in an area where he had no business being, and shooting at what he thought was a deer, but could not make out the whole so-called DEER. All of which are violations of all hunting rules. The fact that he was using a handgun or the range has nothing to do with the other violations. The fact that he hit what he thought was a deer says he is competent with the handgun, so it would be the same if he was using a rifle, he would still have shot something he thought was a deer, and that fact along with the other violations are what he should be convicted on. I agree the shooting even in legal hours and abiding by all laws, he is still guilty of shooting at a target he could not determine to be a deer, but the type of firearm had nothing to do the legality of the shooting.
It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing ,in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors. That would be the victims mistake, doesn't excuse the shooters, not only poor judgment for shooting at something he could not identify, but combined with his other violations, I find him guilty of the offence but not because of the firearm he was using.

I can guarantee you a deer I can "SEE CLEARLY" is in serious trouble if I'm shooting one of my contenders at 200 yds. I don't shoot at something I just THINK is a deer, and surely do not hunt illegally as this fool did! That is the problem here as I see it, and he wouldn't want me on his jury! I simply agree he is in the wrong and deserves what ever penalty the law allows!
............................................... That is my opinion, and that is not mandated that anyone else agree with it!

Yes Mac, I got my ears boxed for that statement. I was not paying attention that it was a "Blanket" comment that I should have reread a couple of times before submitting.

I did attempt to make amends for my case of "Foot In Mouth" disease, as I stated in later posts that I know and have been around folks that are quite capable of making such shots with TC Contenders.

While what the "Hunter" did was illegal on several counts, he was negligent in not properly identifying his target.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:


First, the state in question differs from my home state in terms of shooting hours. In FL, one can shoot 30 minutes AFTER sunset. Except in unusual cases, it is virtually impossible to make adequate indentification of a deer unless they are very close when one gets close to the end of legal shooting time. Based upon this article, it was even later. How he could see at that distance in the dark is beyond me .

Keep in mind that latitude has a lot to do with the length of the twilight period. Because you are so far south the length of twilight in FL will be much shorter than in NY(in the Artic the twilight period can be hours, IIRC). Your Civil Twilight in FL is 51 minuted, in Chautauqua County civil twilight is 1 hour and 3 minutes.

One northern state has/had shooting hours that extended one hour after sunset(IIRC).

This was a tragic event and the poacher deserves to pay a very severe price. His poaching and negligence gives all hunting a black eye.

quote:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors.

Really? How are they supposed to even know it is hunting season if they are not hunters?

Sorry Mac, you are totally wrong on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors.

Really? How are they supposed to even know it is hunting season if they are not hunters?

Sorry Mac, you are totally wrong on this one.

Oh hell yes! Put those drab clothes on and gamble about the woods and fields. Depend on someone else to look after you. It's the American way. Kinda like the folks that like to jog after dark in black warm ups.

Finally something besides speculation as to when he fired the shot. "5:20pm", shooting time ended @ 4:48".
Plus, hunting on a place without permission.

Glad I'm not on that jury.

George

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors.

Really? How are they supposed to even know it is hunting season if they are not hunters?

Sorry Mac, you are totally wrong on this one.

Oh hell yes! Put those drab clothes on and gamble about the woods and fields. Depend on someone else to look after you. It's the American way. Kinda like the folks that like to jog after dark in black warm ups.

Wasbeeman:

First of all, there is NO FUCKING EXCUSE FOR SHOOTING ANY HUMAN YOU THOUGHT WAS A DEER. PERIOD. Besides that, how is someone that is not a hunter even to know it is hunting season? People who jog after dark in dark clothes and people who drive motorcycles without helmets are fully aware of the stupid decisions they are making.

quote:

Besides that, how is someone that is not a hunter even to know it is hunting season?

That depends on the part of the country one is living I guess.

In Wis. gun deer is almost a national holiday I dough any body but intercity types don't know.

Any body else see a sea of blasé orange around might have a clue.

It is even talked about on Wis. public radio a few times in the week leading up to it.

Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

+1

The onus belongs solely and entirely with the hunter / handler of the firearm. Period!

Safety is not rocket science.

T.A.B.

Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

The "hunter" in the O.P. obviously failed miserably in this regard...

quote:

Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

That sums it up as can best be done.

HUNTERS have the Responsibility to conduct themselves in appropriate manner. To try and place the blame on the woman that died clearly illustrates that some of us Should Not Be Hunting!!!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
How he could see at that distance in the dark is beyond me.

I believe there was snow on the ground.

I have hunted coyotes over snow in the middle of the night and could easily identify my target. I could clearly see through my scope at 6.5x, at times well over 200 yards. The point being that even a light snow cover greatly extends the hours when objects can be seen.

Sorry, but the discussion concerns the Death of a Human being due to NEGLIGENCE on the part of a "Hunter"!!!!!!

This has nothing to do with killing coyotes, unless you equate a woman being killed thru no fault of her own as being no more important than shooting a coyote.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

That sums it up as can best be done.

HUNTERS have the Responsibility to conduct themselves in appropriate manner. To try and place the blame on the woman that died clearly illustrates that some of us Should Not Be Hunting!!!

+1

To those saying that non-hunters should wear blaze orange: place yourself in the shoes of a non-hunter. How do you think they will feel if we start saying, "everyone should wear blaze orange or we might shoot you " ... How long do you think it will be before they vote to ban all hunting?

Unless the woman was dressed in a deer costume the idiot who pulled the trigger was solely at fault.

ZERO excuse. Broke multiple laws in addition to violating the basic rules of hunter safety. Go directly to jail for 15 years (we can only hope).

As said above, if you defend this person in any way, shape or form you shouldn't be allowed to hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by erict:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
How he could see at that distance in the dark is beyond me.

I believe there was snow on the ground.

I have hunted coyotes over snow in the middle of the night and could easily identify my target. I could clearly see through my scope at 6.5x, at times well over 200 yards. The point being that even a light snow cover greatly extends the hours when objects can be seen.

I can understand that. We have the same issue here with white sand.

The shooter clearly did a lot of stupid things that resulted in this woman's death. He deserves what he gets.

I don't know anything about the area. If the area is such that I thought someone might take a shot at me in my own yard, I might think twice before moving there. I can't help but think the shooter was totally out of line by firing a shot in that area at any time.

I could have stood in my yard this morning and killed multiple deer. I didn't because it is dangerous and against the law to shoot so close to a dwelling. I have to wonder about the specifics in this case.

I can't imagine the grief this has put the family through.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

Freaking well said!!

Here's a couple of points about the NE. This women of course was not responsible in any way for her death. Having said that I grew up hunting in the NE. We often were hunting legally quite close to homes and farms. That's just how it is with a lot of folks having property right in the hunting woods and hunter densities being very high. Also in the NE you would have to live under a rock to not know it was hunting season. Every store is advertising to attract hunters, newspapers are full articles and more advertising linked to hunting, there are banners across the streets welcoming hunters plus every other pickup has 2-3 guys in it in orange from head to toe. A lot of people living in rural areas these days do wear orange when out in their yards, walking dogs etc and even drape their animals in orange. There are also a lot of very excited and inexperienced folks that have not a clue what there doing in the woods. When I was a kid that 3 weeks of deer season was the most exciting time of my whole year. Today those same hunts might scare the shit out of me.

Mark

Look at how this issue has played out on a site that is geared toward hunters/hunting. How is the issue playing out where it happened?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
And some idiot from Ohio shot a brown pickup truck in NYS because he thought it was a deer.
.

I don't think this got the attention it deserves. Someone should've taken this clown's gun, slapped him and said no more hunting for you....ever.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Here's a couple of points about the NE. This women of course was not responsible in any way for her death. Having said that I grew up hunting in the NE. We often were hunting legally quite close to homes and farms. That's just how it is with a lot of folks having property right in the hunting woods and hunter densities being very high. Also in the NE you would have to live under a rock to not know it was hunting season. Every store is advertising to attract hunters, newspapers are full articles and more advertising linked to hunting, there are banners across the streets welcoming hunters plus every other pickup has 2-3 guys in it in orange from head to toe. A lot of people living in rural areas these days do wear orange when out in their yards, walking dogs etc and even drape their animals in orange. There are also a lot of very excited and inexperienced folks that have not a clue what there doing in the woods. When I was a kid that 3 weeks of deer season was the most exciting time of my whole year. Today those same hunts might scare the shit out of me.

Mark

My better half went to our hunting shack in MN this year. She had no idea she should put on orange until told to by my daughter (she was not hunting, but wanted to take a walk). She simply didn't connect the dots that the orange was for safety. She slept in late and didn't see us leave, but it never dawned on her to do that. This is a woman, by the way, that insists I wear my bike helmet even when testing my seat height etc. in the cul de sac in front of our house.

I don't see the issue.

The guy just had American citizenship, hadn't crossed the border illegally, and he was in the wrong town. Now if he had been a Mexican national, paid a coyote to smuggle him across the border and had shot the woman while she was on the Embarcadero, Now that would be an issue.

Equal justice under the law.

quote:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors.

Make no mistake my post quoted above in no way makes the lady killed responsible for her own death! The fact is she was not in a hunting area. She was on private property where the shooter had no permission to be. The shooter also fired a shot at something he could not identify as being a deer he was not allowed to shoot anyway.

Anyone here who took my post to imply I thought the lady was at fault here is simply reading challenged. If in fact this had happened in a hunting area and everything was the same the shooter would still be at fault because he was shooting a something he could not identify and should pay the piper for his CRIME! However if the lady had been in a hunting area it would have been a real safety move to wear colors, and maybe this idiot may have recognized that what he was seeing was not a blaze orange DEER!

......................................................................As I said this guy would not want me on his jury!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors. That would be the victims mistake, doesn't excuse the shooters, not only poor judgment for shooting at something he could not identify, but combined with his other violations, I find him guilty of the offence but not because of the firearm he was using.

Mac,
The wording of your post makes it really look like you were stating that not wearing safety colors was, "the victim's mistake". If you reread what you wrote, as quoted above, it is hard not to conclude that you were not speaking of the situation in question. Your run-on sentence was confusing, especially for those of us who are, "reading challenged".


As someone's tag line reads: "It is impossible to express yourself so clearly that you cannot be misunderstood."

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

It is true that the person, regardless of what they are doing, in a hunting area should be wearing safety colors. That would be the victims mistake, doesn't excuse the shooters, not only poor judgment for shooting at something he could not identify, but combined with his other violations, I find him guilty of the offence but not because of the firearm he was using.

Mac,
The wording of your post makes it really look like you were stating that not wearing safety colors was, "the victim's mistake". If you reread what you wrote, as quoted above, it is hard not to conclude that you were not speaking of the situation in question. Your run-on sentence was confusing, especially for those of us who are, "reading challenged".


As someone's tag line reads: "It is impossible to express yourself so clearly that you cannot be misunderstood."

You are right it does seem a little confusing to a quick scan, but I went back and high-lighted the sentence in RED. and if you will notice the "IN A HUNTING AREA" with that qualifier not being the case with the lady that was shot on her own privates property where the perp had no right to shoot anything, much less the lady walking her dogs.

Hope this is as clear as Mississippi mud!

........................................................................ Sorry for the misunderstanding because of my poor wording!!

I was the first victim of 1998 WV deer season. Shooter said I looked just a buck at 200 yds!
Problems were the game warden and I ranged the shot at 70 yds. and I was in orange. He shot across my chest and missed my heart by 2".
Lost 40% of my left deltoid muscle, 40% of my blood on drive to hospital (by the shooter) Had a 5" exit from a 7mmMag, 150 gr. Win. Power POint. Missed the bone by 1/4".
Scared? You better believe it.
Trail was a joke. I was not invited. He was given 3 years probation. No jail time unless he was caught hunting. He did. I reported him, but game wardens did not investigate.
Final outcome- his insurance co. paid for a monster safari- 3 of the big 5 plus another 10 animals.
My arm is not the same. Can't pull a bow back. Not a day goes by I don't think about it. It's still scary.

quote:

Originally posted by WV Hitman:
I was the first victim of 1998 WV deer season. Shooter said I looked just a buck at 200 yds!
Problems were the game warden and I ranged the shot at 70 yds. and I was in orange. He shot across my chest and missed my heart by 2".
Lost 40% of my left deltoid muscle, 40% of my blood on drive to hospital (by the shooter) Had a 5" exit from a 7mmMag, 150 gr. Win. Power POint. Missed the bone by 1/4".
Scared? You better believe it.
Trail was a joke. I was not invited. He was given 3 years probation. No jail time unless he was caught hunting. He did. I reported him, but game wardens did not investigate.
Final outcome- his insurance co. paid for a monster safari- 3 of the big 5 plus another 10 animals.
My arm is not the same. Can't pull a bow back. Not a day goes by I don't think about it. It's still scary.

Bastard should have gone to jail. Glad you got a safari out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by WV Hitman:
I was the first victim of 1998 WV deer season. Shooter said I looked just a buck at 200 yds!
Problems were the game warden and I ranged the shot at 70 yds. and I was in orange. He shot across my chest and missed my heart by 2".
Lost 40% of my left deltoid muscle, 40% of my blood on drive to hospital (by the shooter) Had a 5" exit from a 7mmMag, 150 gr. Win. Power POint. Missed the bone by 1/4".
Scared? You better believe it.
Trail was a joke. I was not invited. He was given 3 years probation. No jail time unless he was caught hunting. He did. I reported him, but game wardens did not investigate.
Final outcome- his insurance co. paid for a monster safari- 3 of the big 5 plus another 10 animals.
My arm is not the same. Can't pull a bow back. Not a day goes by I don't think about it. It's still scary.

Shocking. You are damn lucky . He is a f’ing idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
While the greater fault was the shooter's, both parties have to bear some responsibility.
When my wife and I would camp in WY, even though we were 50mi beyond the end of the paved roads, we still wore orange vest while puttering around camp.

This is one of the dumbest post I've ever seen on this site. She bears some responsibility???? The lady was 150 yards from her house!!!!!

Even if this poacher had actually seen a deer, no fucking way should he be shooting at any target with a house 150 yards away.

This is the kind of shit that will kill or restrict hunting.

Wow, it took this long for you to find someone to read the post for you? Must be a TX grad.
While "responsibility" may be too strong a word, common sense certainly isn't.

Wasbeeman:

I read your posts to some of my non-hunting friends after I heard them talking about it over a New Year's Day breakfast we hosted. They were pretty appalled, but since most hunters are pretty appalled as well, why should this come as a surprise?

Common sense tells me you don't point a gun at something you have not positively identified as a target.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Wasbeeman:

I read your posts to some of my non-hunting friends after I heard them talking about it over a New Year's Day breakfast we hosted. They were pretty appalled, but since most hunters are pretty appalled as well, why should this come as a surprise?

Common sense tells me you don't point a gun at something you have not positively identified as a target.

I am not questioning that. I have not questioned that from the get go. Apparently the shooter did not get that memo however. What I am maintaining is that perhaps, just perhaps, had the lady had on an orange vest or hat, perhaps the shooter might not have shot.
"...and while the sun and moon endure, lucks a chance but troubles sure; I'd face it as a wise man would and train for ill and not for good..."
(with apologies to ae houseman)

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Seriously, if anyone thinks this woman is in any way responsible for her death, do us all a favor and stop hunting.

That sums it up as can best be done.

HUNTERS have the Responsibility to conduct themselves in appropriate manner. To try and place the blame on the woman that died clearly illustrates that some of us Should Not Be Hunting!!!

+1

To those saying that non-hunters should wear blaze orange: place yourself in the shoes of a non-hunter. How do you think they will feel if we start saying, "everyone should wear blaze orange or we might shoot you " ... How long do you think it will be before they vote to ban all hunting?

Unless the woman was dressed in a deer costume the idiot who pulled the trigger was solely at fault.

+1 nothing more to say