Tomek wrote:
[No one did. Re-read the posts. All I stated were facts]

I guess the BS flag animation was a factual statement, and not flame effect?

[it doesn't take a forensics specialist to see the direction of the bullet channel]

Neither you nor anyone else who wasn't there when that Antelope was shot can tell from that photo anything about the wound channel. As a non-forensics-specialist you can clearly see that the animal has been moved and handled prior to the photo., including the lifting and twisting shown here. All the photo proves is massive tissue damage. It doesn't provide evidence of the direction of the wound channel. Not exactly irrefutable fact, in my opinion. But then, that's just my opinion; it's not a fact.

All of the arguing aside, I don't see why one would choose the ballistic tip bullet over other offerings. Take the partition, for example. It's well-known as a bullet that expands, holds together, and penetrates. Other bullets such as the Swift A-Frame, Barnes TSX, and even the Accubond have the same reputation.

So why even consider a lightly-constructed, thinly-jacketed bullet such as the BT at all?

quote:

Originally posted by Sergeant_Sabre:
All of the arguing aside, I don't see why one would choose the ballistic tip bullet over other offerings. Take the partition, for example. It's well-known as a bullet that expands, holds together, and penetrates. Other bullets such as the Swift A-Frame, Barnes TSX, and even the Accubond have the same reputation.

So why even consider a lightly-constructed, thinly-jacketed bullet such as the BT at all?

I've asked this same question. The answer usually involves group sizes.

I will trade a half-inch at 100 yards for consistent terminal performance for any big game.

Having said that, I don't doubt this was a raking shot. No way a BST did that on any shot approaching a pependicular entry.


Tim

kroil wrote: "No bullet design is perfect, except maybe Barnes X"

If it is so perfect, then why is Barnes phasing them out in favor of the TSX. And the TSX is gradually being replaced by the TTSX.

Why? THat's simple. The X suffered a poor reputation for accuracy in some guns. The TSX was the panacea and shoots quite well in virtually any firearm.

Now why the polymer-tipped version? Barnes has been constantly hearing (and seeing) the results of low-velocity, long range impacts or impacts on thin-skinned game in which the bullet failed to open. They are hoping the TTSX, with a more cavernous hollow point and a wedge to drive it open, will enhance expansion potential.

Personally, I've seen more Barnes failures than any other bullet.

Well, I never had that experience. Some may have, I have not. But following your prior reasoning with the BST, since I have not seen this phenomenon occur, then it can't be so, correct?

kroil wrote:

quote:

But following your prior reasoning with the BST, since I have not seen this phenomenon occur, then it can't be so, correct?

Wrong, my friend. My reasoning is nothing of the sort.

The poster claimed to "know" the bullet would "explode" because, in his mind, that is what they were designed for. And he "knew" it was not designed for high-velocity, close-range impact (Nosler recommends impact velocities no higher than 3000 fps -- and 2800 fps of lower is better yet)

Yet he chose to use it anyway -- in a .270 Wthby Magnum, no less.

Believe what you want, but the facts speak for themselves.

I simply said that the hunting weight Ballistic Tips, used as the manufacturer intended, are one of the finest thin-skined, medium-game bullets ever designed.

'Nuff said...

The facts? You do not have all of the facts about that antelope hunt. You were not there. Any assumptions you are making about that incident are based on what limited information you have available to you about that situation. And basing those "Facts" on a picture could only lead to greater misunderstanding.
Just for arguments sake,... What if it was mentioned that there were multiple jacket fragments found throughout the wound site? would you be inclined to believe that this particular factory loaded bullet failed?

kroil-

Please re-read the posts. I never claimed to have "facts" from that hunt. It all boils down to one thing: someone basing a conclusion -- calling a bullet a piece of crap -- based on one incident and even admitting to having "limited knowledge" on the subject.

Based on that type of reasoning, since the Patriots lost the Super Bowl, I guess that team is "a piece of crap" and should get rid of all their players, coaches, scouts and even the water boys in the off-season, right???

Now there you go again with those ridiculous emoticons. I really find no place for them in an intellectual conversation. They are for kids.

First of all Bobby, I believe you are an astute shooter. A Rifleman, with a sophisticated understanding of internal and external ballistics. I can tell this from your writings and past posts.
I think if you were to review a few of my posts, you may find that I too, posess a modicum of experience in this area.
The only thing that separates us here in this particular discussion is that I was there.
If my memory serve me correctly, the young man in the bloody jeans holding that goat is the son of a Mormon minister named Aza.
This was his first hunt and he was there as a camp helper. This goat was shot north of Corona NM on Tony Sanchez's ranch. In fact it was shot on the north side of the highway. I know the shooter, Joe, very well, and have shot at long range, controlled situations with him on multiple occasions. He can hit long range targets with consistency.
I personally inspected this goat and the resultant entry wound.
If there was ever a case of catastrophic bullet/jacket separation, this would be the poster child for that picture.
I did, in fact, give Aza a small high quality pocket knife as a tip, as he was trying to pick out a shard of jacket material from the palm of his hand from dragging this goat.
He also managed to discover dipping tobacco on this hunt, but not from me and as a result, was not allowed to hunt the following antelope season.
So I can tell you that I have an intellectual and personal experience with this event.

I can also tell you that this was the year that Nosler found the weakness in their design if pushed to fast. But we, the ammo purchasing public, were not privy to those data points when Weatherby loaded this particular bullet. It simply failed.
In fact, during a conversation with a Nosler exec, he claimed that these bullets were only suited to "thin skinned medium game"... to which I added, I can't think of a better example of that than a pronghorn. His response was, "Well, they were probably going to fast", to which we inquired why would they sell them to Weatherby if the design was destined to fail in their cartridge line. He responded with, "Can I send you some ammo or a hat and make things right?
?????
In retrospect, looking at the picture, one can imagine a bullet path of some sorts. That path, i believe was actually a tear from dragging and yanking that goat up on a tailgate. I have killed a few critters and you can see them here on this site. And I have seen bullet failure, even on a perpendicular entry.
In my humble opinion, this was just that.

Just don't understand the all or nothing sentiment. In my rifles I rely on 2 bullets, some form of the ballistic tip and whatever the latest release is of the Barnes X. Their applications overlap but each have their own advantages at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The BT has MANY years of proven experience and continues to be a top seller, it is inexpensive, available in virtually any reloading department, and a fine bullet at moderate velocities for animals up to medium size. I have taken animals with it all over the world including, Australia, Africa, Asia, and a few states, up close, far away, light and heavy calibers.

I know I am pushing its limits in my 300 Ultra, pics in earlier post, but if I expect shots over 400 yards on medium sized thin skin animals then its velocity is down in the moderate range and it will perform just as I want. If these animals are up close it still works because they are easy to kill. It is prick point accurate in that gun. If I am after heavier game then I sacrifice a bit of accuracy and go to an X bullet.

If I am not using a speedster caliber and expect long shots I don't want an X. Below 2000fps and thin skinned I am not totally confident they will open as needed, especially missing the ribs broadside. At this point you are at the design limits. If you get expansion it will be minimal as compared to a Ballistic Tip. They each have their own spectrum of use.


For more than 20 years I've exclusively used the BT in the 7-08, 7 mag, and wifes's and son's 270. Taken a lot of deer with it VERY effectively.

And regarding that lope, looks like a good 12 inches of hide cutting and penetration with enough energy to still exit the back of the neck. An inch to the right and it would have been a superficial neck wound with a lot of hair on the ground, an inch to the left and it would not have split the hide but rather would have caught the spine making a very large exit hole on the back of the neck. I have hit deer in the neck with high velocity BTs and when they blow the spine out they leave a massive exit the taxidermist won't like.

With the neck being turned at that angle in the picture it is exagerrating the opening in the hide. I just don't see bullet failure in that picture. I see a long wound channel with the opening being made wider by pulling the neck up at that angle and the body weight pulling it in the other direction. I would expect this from an expanding bullet going around 3000fps and attempting to travel about an inch under the hide.

Quote:
I just don't see bullet failure in that picture.

That is correct because you can't see the failure because YOU WERE NOT THERE TO STICK YOUR FINGERS IN THE WOUND. OR PULL ANY FRAGMENTS FROM THE MEAT. AND, make an intelligent observation of the empirical data, not a picture of an animal that had been moved, carried, yanked by the horns etc.
I love "Armchair Experts"
And don't give me any bullsh+t about shot placement, because that is something we all know alot about,...

I saw the wound and, how a forensic person would say it, "How it was Presented".
As in, what actually happened.
Or, let me guess,.. nothing ever goes wrong for the few of you... Right?

Kroil,

I think your tone, ego, and, attitude says volumes about you. From your last post and others it seems like posted pictures row your boat, but yet in the same breath, we are not to make judgements about the pictures because we weren't there. You are indeed a difficult person to comprehend.

If pictures are what rows your boat then here's a few, but...wait, you weren't there to forensicly feel them.... so I just don't know what to say about that:

http://community.webshots.com/user/tundragriz

Bobby Wrote:

quote:

The poster claimed to "know" the bullet would "explode" because, in his mind, that is what they were designed for. And he "knew" it was not designed for high-velocity, close-range impact (Nosler recommends impact velocities no higher than 3000 fps -- and 2800 fps of lower is better yet)

Yet he chose to use it anyway -- in a .270 Wthby Magnum, no less.

Kroil Wrote:

quote:

First of all Bobby, I believe you are an astute shooter. A Rifleman, with a sophisticated understanding of internal and external ballistics. I can tell this from your writings and past posts.

Though Bobby may be what Kroil claims above he certainly can't read and comprehend past a 2nd grade level. If you go back and read my posts from the beginning I state that I read about the bullet's problems but wanted to try it. It shot great out of my gun. I said I shot a whitetail and in performed great, but than I shot the goat and it did exactly what I had read about. EXPLODED And there I based my opinion. If you read my posts I never once said as Bobby quotes me as saying:

And he "knew" it was not designed for high-velocity, close-range impact (Nosler recommends impact velocities no higher than 3000 fps -- and 2800 fps of lower is better yet)"

I never wrote that, but every time Bobby quotes me it is out of context. I never said "I knew it was going to explode". I never once said that I knew it was going to explode. What I said was I read that it had for others in the past. If I knew than why would I have used it. Again another post by Bobby quoting me saying something and putting my words out of context.


Obviously Bobby likes these bullets which I feel are a piece of crap. But than again he probably likes the Cowboys and I'm a Giants fan.
Regards,
Joe

Kroil, your post shows you have shot very little game with any X bullet, even faintly considering the Barnes X to be anywhere near the perfect bullet show much ignorance of the bullet.
Joe, from looking at the antelopes neck I can see that your shot angle was correct, I can also see the bullet expanded and released energy as it should. It also exited. There is not enough meat in an antelopes neck to care about, in fact I often ignore neck meat and if you sail an expanding bullet thru an animals neck you are going to destroy some of this semi precious meat. Also the bullet placement caused the shallow wound channel. As to your Sierra comment, yes I like Sierra bullets and before last season did some testing comparing the 150 grain 7MM Ballistic tip and the 150 grain Sierra Gameking. Both were very accurate but the Ballistic Tip made both a wider and deeper wound channel in wet newsprint. The heavier Ballistic Tips are pretty thick in the jacket and the bullet base is solid. On the last note I could care less what you think is a piece of crap or your inability to appreciate a good bullet design.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I go hunting "newsprint".
I think the BST bullet, in its design format when this goat was shot was flawed. Maybe Nosler has fixed that for high velocity centerfires. But that particular bullet failed.

The polymer tipped hollow point introduced by Nosler as the Ballistic Tip is one of the most accurate bullets I ever used. The accuracy is beyond exceptional. For long range target shooting and long range varmint hunting down your neck of the woods it's perfect. The design is ideal.
It was to fragile for medium and large game so Nosler made the jacket a bit heavier with hopes it would be less frangible. In my opinion it didn't work. It's that simple.
Yet the Texas crew just can't seem to except anyone else's opinion if it's different than their own. Take a deep breath and take your Stetsons off and let some steam out. Ease up.



rickt300 Wrote:

quote:

On the last note I could care less what you think is a piece of crap or your inability to appreciate a good bullet design.

Good bullet, BST a good bullet. Nosler does make good bullets and BST is just not one of them. Oops i forgot , you don't care what I think..

ok back to the original post which wasnt if BT's are "good" or not....

the 168...according to nosler has a slighlty thicker jacket taper than the 165

using it in a 308 win on deer, what could go wrong?

quote:

It looks like he hit the edges of the neck -- and virtually ANY bullet would cause extensive damage with that type of placement.

Ditto.

Out of over 150 big game animals taken by myself and too many others witnessed, I've seen some questionable performance but only a total of about 5 "failures" with rifle bullets. 2 of them were Nosler Partitions and 3 were Failsafes. Does that mean they are bad bullets, no, but it shows that any bullet can do strange things.

I've personally taken dozens of animals with NBTs and none have ever failed, even when pushed to magnum velocities. I'm completely confident that a NBT will hold it's own against any cup and core on the market. If a CNC isn't good enough, one needs to go premium.

Good Luck

Reloader

I'm a little late to this thread, but I've killed dozens of deer and hogs with 165 gr BTs out of a .300 WM. I had one blow up on a sow that was running across a road in front of me as I exited my gate, range about 30 yards. She wasn't dead immediately but was so damaged that she took about 3 steps and stopped, kind of leaning over. Needless to say the second shot to the head ended that episode. Contrary to some opinions expressed in this thread, I find decent sized pigs to be tougher on bullets than just about any other medium sized game. I can't explain why, but it is a fact.

I like BTs and will continue to use them for my type of game. Would I take them to Africa? Probably not, but I can tell you this, if I had them, I'd bet money I'd kill every plains game animal I shot at......but I would only take rib cage shots.

I hate to get in this match but I've looked pretty carefully at the pic of the pronghorn and unless his head was down grazing I can't figure out how it was shot in the neck on a 1/4 facing shot unless the shooter missed his aiming point by about 4 inches or so. That's understandable, things happen, but if that bullet had done that in the chest cavity, which I assume was the aiming point, you can call it failure or you can call it what you want, but the antelope would still be lying there dead.