im guessing it is the same as the CT 168 but curious for feedback...

i have used the AMAX on many deer. does that count?

It is identical to the CT, just doesn't have the coating. I actually like the coated pills, but use both coated and uncoated in other weights. There is not difference in on game performance.

I have shot 4 average size whitetail does with the new uncoated in 168, and all 4 were DRT's. Pass throughs, small entries, 50 cent piece size exits. Average distance was 150 ish, longest was at 203 per Leica BRF bino's, the shortest was in a field I've killed tons of deer in, right at 125 yards. This bullet is really accurate out of my 308 I used it in, just like the CT version.

thanks for the 411

why do you prefer the coated pills?

I use the 168 Ballistic Silver Tips because of the extra velocity and my gun likes them. They are very accurate in my 700 300 Ultra. Because of the velocity I don't use them for big critters but if it is deer sized or far away they have worked great.

Took this bou at 410.


Ibex at 247.


Speed goat at 424.


And a few whitetails ranging from 20-200 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by PATRIOT76:

why do you prefer the coated pills?

I actually have a couple of rigs that have a very high round count through them with no discernable loss of accuracy. I do what I call a cursory cleaning--just push a patch or two through with a shot of eezox on there, and that's it. They do seem to drop pressure a bit, but I haven't noticed any velocity gain per se, but I guess if you could measure pressure vs speed, it would make sense that you could equalize pressure, and have greater speed. I simply like the ease of cleaning, and the maintained accuracy.

YMMV, but that's my .02

I just started shooting the 168 CTs during the past few years. I've mostly shot them at paper, but in January just weeks ago I set out to get a meat deer with the 168CT in an 06. Had a 100lb deer come out quartering away at 160 yards, I fired and it was DRT(not even a twitch). The bullet entered mid ribs, destroyed all the goodies, and was under the hide at the base of the neck in a nice mushroom that appeared to hold together well for a cup-n-core. That's not enough experience with that bullet to form an opinion other than they shoot great on paper, but from that kill and the several others I've witnessed with this bullet, I'd have to say it's a good whitetail or 'lope pill.

Good Luck

Reloader

I'm just wondering why you'd expect it to behave differently than the 165gr Ballistic tip...

Personally I'll keep using the 165 ballistic tips I have (about 400 of them) but when they are gone I'll switch to accubonds.

AD

Just used one of my gift cards on a box of these to break in my new .308. We shall see how she does

I did some wild donkey culling in Australia a while back and took all the hand loads I was allowed to fly including some Barnes x and Partition bullets. Mostly 308 and 7mm. I liked the 165 and 168 gr. balistic tips best in the 308. (too expansive in the 7mm for tough donkeys.) I coated mine with molly and shot all day with no noticible loss of accuracy.

For long distance shooting in 30 cal I have been extremely happy with them.

That said I am still a Barnes tripple shock guy in 7mm, and 338 for all trophy hunting.
Mike O

Yup, I'm a Barnes guy too but i did see those CT's floor a big ram and the performance was as good as you could ask for.

This is a picture of a 140 BST out of a 270 weatherby at 185 yards. I will never use BST's again

quote:

This is a picture of a 140 BST out of a 270 weatherby at 185 yards. I will never use BST's again

Like I said I like them for 308 I indicatd but did not say and not so much for the really fast loads".

I have some 168 gr BT's loaded for my 308, but I haven't seen a hog to try them on yet. They shoot great.

Joedjr, did that antelope go very far?



Seriously, that is one of the most severe 'exits' that I have ever seen--sheesh.
Maybe at 270 WBY velocities and under 250 yard impacts you need depleted uranium! WOW

quote:

Seriously, that is one of the most severe 'exits' that I have ever seen--sheesh.

That was the entrance not exit. Total bullet failure.

It dropped like a ton of bricks. I called Nosler and they were nice enough to send me three boxes of their custom ammo in accubonds.

quote:

Originally posted by joedjr:

quote:

Seriously, that is one of the most severe 'exits' that I have ever seen--sheesh.

That was the entrance not exit. Total bullet failure.

It dropped like a ton of bricks. I called Nosler and they were nice enough to send me three boxes of their custom ammo in accubonds.

SO at pedestrian 308 win speeds with 168 grainers, do you think these blowups would occur?

No.

I use the 150 grain BT in a .308 WCF at 2780 fps MV and have taken dozens upon dozens of hogs with this load -- and I often get an exit.

Used within specific guidelines set forth by the manufacturer, the BTs perform admirably on medium-sized game. But run them full-throttle in a belted magnum and you are only asking for trouble...

joedjr-

I have a couple of questions:

First, what was the shot presentation?

Was the impact along the edges? I ask simply because the left portion of the neck shows a clean cut in the hide and little damage to the meat. With a hit along the edges, even a full metal jacketed proectile will create impressive external damage.

Looking closely at the photo, I see what appears to be a diagonal path of damage. Could the buck have turned its head at the last moment?

Just curious...

quote:

SO at pedestrian 308 win speeds with 168 grainers, do you think these blowups would occur?

Patriot, In my opinion I would say no but I am just using my limited knowledge on this. I believe the high speed of the caliber I used and the bullet construction caused this. I've read about them doing this before I used them and they wre known to fail. The bullet was then made better by Nosler due to it's faults in the past but I still had a problem with it.
If I was hunting only for the meat and not the trophy I wouldn't even care but this cost me extra $$$$ for a new cape for mounting.

quote:

Used within specific guidelines set forth by the manufacturer, the BTs perform admirably on medium-sized game

I used weatherby factory 270mag ammo out of my weatherby ultralight. Therefore in my opinion I beleive Bobby's statement to be false. Maybe they redesigned this bullet again. You may not have a problem with it out of a 308 but out of real fast mag loads you should't use it. In the past they were notorious for blowing up. My goat was only two years ago. Nosler makes other bullets and barnes also that are just better bullets in my opinion.

On that lope, it looks to me like a raking shot across the side of the neck. Entry appears to be just below and behind the lower jaw, attempted to travel about an inch or so under the hide, exiting on the back edge of the neck. An unusual shot but one that very accurately displays a cross section of a desirable wound channel, just like cutting a block of ballistic gelatin lengthwise.

Serious expansion started about 2 inches in, maximum wound channel is about 8 inches in, and it slowly begins to dissipate after that. It looks like heck but I would hope for this type of performance with any expanding bullet.

Tundragriz-

I agree completely. It looks like he hit the edges of the neck -- and virtually ANY bullet would cause extensive damage with that type of placement.

To me, it appears to be shooter error and not bullet failure.

joedjr wrote:

quote:

You may not have a problem with it out of a 308 but out of real fast mag loads you should't use it.

Gee, isn't this EXACTLY what Nosler has been preaching all along???

Bobby Tomek wrote:

quote:

Gee, isn't this EXACTLY what Nosler has been preaching all along???

If that's what Nosler has been preaching all along why do they load it themselves and allow other companies to load it in the fast magnum calibers. $$$$. That's why. Buyer beware. The bullet was a piece of crap from when it first came out and still is. If you want accuracy use it, it's great. It is not a premium bullet and has failed on many hunters many times more than good premium bullets do. Just do a search on the net and look it up.

Bobby Tomek wrote:

quote:

Tundragriz-

I agree completely. It looks like he hit the edges of the neck -- and virtually ANY bullet would cause extensive damage with that type of placement.

To me, it appears to be shooter error and not bullet failure

Wrong again, the goat was 1/4 away from me I had a good rest and a shot that hit exactly where I aimed. I honestly feel that goat did not move before I shot. The bullet should have went in the neck and out towards the back of the far shoulder but it failed (as they do often) as soon as it hit the goat.

I sent pictures to Nosler and got a call from John Nosler Jr. who is the grandson of the founder of the company. He said that out of the fast calibers this can happen. He said it himself.Yet they continue to load it and sell it to others to load in these calibers. He made good on the failure with sending me 3 boxes of their accubonds. I never asked him to send me anything but he did it on his own and I thought that was a great thing he did. He recommeded out of my weatherby 270mag and weatherby 300mag to use the accubonds or partitions.

Dead is dead, so yes the bullet worked but it's not supposed to blow up on a two day New Mexico trophy antelope hunt that cost me alot of $$$$.

joedjr wrote: "I am just using my limited knowledge on this."

SO if this is true, how can you also say: "The bullet was a piece of crap from when it first came out and still is."

You can't make a broad generalization like that unless you can substantiate your claim. And with your self-professed "limited knowledge," your argument can't hold water.

I guess all the animals I have successfully harvested -- along with tons of animals taken by other hunters -- didn't know they were being killed by "a piece of crap."

Maybe they just didn't get your memo...

By the way, I load that same 140 grain BT for my father-in-law in his .270 WCF. It's a moderate load that generates 2750 fps. He's taken all sorts of game ranging from coyotes to large hogs and at distances from up close and personal to approaching 300 yards. And he has yet to recover one as they have all been pass-throughs thus far.

But based on your claim, maybe I should just ditch that 0.5 MOA, game-dropping load and get him a bullet that's not "a piece of crap."

One last thing: if you "knew" for years that the bullet was a "piece of crap," as you so eloquently state, then WHY did you take it on the hunt?

Weatherby loads the Accubond along with others designed for deep penetration.

The 140 grain load you used shows a MV of 3300 fps. At the range you shot the buck, it was moving just BARELY under what Nosler recommends for a MAXIMUM impact velocity for optimum performance.

If blame can be laid (and if the shot placement was not off), then it would have to be on the choice of ammunition.

You also stated that "it's not supposed to blow up on a two day New Mexico trophy antelope hunt that cost me alot of $$$$."

If money is/was a primary consideration on an important hunt -- a hunt that you obviously wanted to be successful -- a few more pennies per round would have bought Accubonds, Partitions or Barnes bullets...not to mention piece of mind since you obviously have enver trusted a Ballistic Tip.

Lastly, as to shot placement, you wrote: "the goat was 1/4 away from me I had a good rest and a shot that hit exactly where I aimed. I honestly feel that goat did not move before I shot. The bullet should have went in the neck and out towards the back of the far shoulder "

If the buck was quartering AWAY, how could the bullet hit the neck and then (hopefully) wind up in or through the far shoulder. Ballistic Tips are good but not that good...

Was the buck perhaps quartering TOWARDS you???

That's why we have so many bullets on the market. Everyone can choose the one that's right for them. For me no way is it that "piece of crap" BST. That's what it is in my opinion. If you love it and have had good results with it than use it.

Before the goat hunt where the bullet failed I shot a large Wyoming whitetail ranged at 366 yards. The bullet hit right where I aimed and never came out the other side but the deer dropped where he stood. No failure at all. Like I said it's an accurate bullet. That was the first time I used the bullet. It worked perfectly. Before using it on the Wyoming whitetail I read enough about it where it had a bad wrap of blowing up. But it shot well so I wanted to try it.

Second hunt with it was on the goat. Total bullet failure. Accurate but it failed.

Therefore it's a "piece of crap" My opinion.

That's how I can make a broad generalization because I can substantiate it. It failed. 50% isn't goog enough for me.

Now I'm not telling anyone on this post to use it or not but the history is what it is. The bullet had a bad wrap of blowing up, bottom line.
It was made and originally designed as a long range varmint bullet. Nosler tweaked it to try to make it a hunting bullet. It didn't work.

When I went on these two hunts weatherby only loaded the BST and the partition and the partition didn't shoot well out of my 270WBY so I chose the BST. Even with what I read I was willing to give it a try.It grouped great. But on the second hunt it just didn't work for me and I'm not willing to give it another try except on paper.

From Nosler's web site:

Ballistic Tip® Hunting
Hunting's Deadliest Deer Bullet

What they should say is:

Ballistic Tip® Hunting
Hunting's Deadliest Deer Bullet Even when It Fails

Bobby Tomek Wrote:

quote:

If money is/was a primary consideration on an important hunt -- a hunt that you obviously wanted to be successful -- a few more pennies per round would have bought Accubonds, Partitions or Barnes bullets...not to mention piece of mind since you obviously have enver trusted a Ballistic Tip.

That's a picture of some of my Weatherby ammo. All Partition, and Barnes X. $60.00/box times 18 boxes. Sitting there waiting to be used. Point being is I will spend the money on premium ammo. Picture proofs it.I learned by trial and error that BST's fail. Always did and still due.
Your right I don't trust Ballistic Tip. They are a "piece of crap".
Now why don't you come out of the closet and stop hiding behind your large Texan ego and admit yourself.
Regards,
Joe

Bobby Tomek Wrote:

quote:

Ballistic Tips are good but not that good...

Well said, I'm glad you agree...

joedjr: When I said Ballistic Tips are good but not that good, I said so in sarcasm because you said you shot at a quartering away animal. You shot it in the neck and expected the bullet to come through the shoulder. HOW? HOW?? HOW???

Think about it for a minute. You want a bullet to make a 180 degree turn and come back TOWARDS you??? Are you used to hunting with boomerangs or something???

And what do I need to admit, and where the hell am I hiding? I don't use some computer nickname. I list my name and location. And I speak my mind -- and substantiate anything I say with fact. And I sure as hell don't make blanket generalizations based on the performance of one single incident -- an incident, I might add, that still appears to me (and others) of a shot that did not land where intended but instead struck at a glancing angle, hence the end result.

To wrap up, your facts are obviously fuzzy (quarering away and wanted an exit through the shoulder when you shoot for the neck) and you base your conclusion of "a piece of crap" on ONE incident.

And, what takes the cake, you claim to have known that the bullet would perform as it did, and yet you still chose to use it. Hmmmmm...

Lastly, you said: "The bullet had a bad wrap of blowing up, bottom line.
It was made and originally designed as a long range varmint bullet. Nosler tweaked it to try to make it a hunting bullet. It didn't work.
"

Please get your facts straight. Nosler NEVER intended the 140 grainer in .277 to be a varmint bullet. That is pure hogwash -- an outright lie.

Call Nosler yourself and find out the facts before skewing and spewing incorrect information.

I back Bobby's CSI.

The only similar damage I've seen was identical and it was on a mule deer running dead away from me. I clipped the side of his neck which did some meat damage but absolutely unzipped the side of his neck. He did not react to the shot although he was bleeding profusely. He ran about 100 yards and holed-up in some rocks. I had to climb above him to get a finishing shot.

The damage shown on the pronghorn has nothing to do with bullet "failure". I believe I was using a 120 gr. 25.06 on my mule deer. I never thought to blame the bullet for my poor shot.

He's just another Ballistic Tip beater. A common thread amongst them is they always mention Barnes bullets somewhere. There must be a rebate on every box of TSX's if you can get something negative printed on Nosler Ballistic Tips. I too think the bullet in questing was off a bit and he's lucky he got the expansion he did or the ending may not have been as happy. Good thing he wasn't using an X bullet.

Hog Hunter Wrote:

quote:

Think about it for a minute. You want a bullet to make a 180 degree turn and come back TOWARDS you??? Are you used to hunting with boomerangs or something???

Thanks Tx. I meant to say 1/4 towards me. I'm surprised you picked that up.

I heard negatives about the bullet but decided to try it. And it failed just like I read it had numerous times before.

And get you facts straight and read about the history of the bullet. The bullet was originally developed as a varmint bullet introduced later on as a mid sized game bullet after some tweaking. The tweaking failed. The bullet is a piece of crap. You like it I don't. You can use it on your little Texas pigs till your hearts content.

rickt300 Wrote:

quote:

He's just another Ballistic Tip beater. A common thread amongst them is they always mention Barnes bullets somewhere. There must be a rebate on every box of TSX's if you can get something negative printed on Nosler Ballistic Tips. I too think the bullet in questing was off a bit and he's lucky he got the expansion he did or the ending may not have been as happy. Good thing he wasn't using an X bullet.

I didn't mention Barnes bullets. Hog Hunter did. I am a BST beater but not a Nosler beater. Look at the picture of the three boxes of Nosler Partitions on the left. If you look above the Weatherby ammo there is a box of Nosler custom 375 H&H 260 grain Accubond. There are two more behind that box. I am not on here to beat up Nosler I am on here to inform hog hunters that don't know bullets that BST's are Crap..
Regards,
Joe

I've never had a problem with the ballistic tip class bullets from nosler/combined tech.

20 years, no issues.

Whoa boys, I need to step in and make an unbiased observation. First of all, his target was quartering toward him, not away. An honest mistake in his post - let's not go crazy there, Detective Columbo. Whether or not you want to agree with Joe's viewpoint based on his experience is certainly you're prerogative, but there's no reason to start jumping ugly with the guy. That said, I myself have also seen irrefutable proof that the BST can fail, has failed, and did fail. Has it failed every time it's ever been fired? Of course not. The bullet on that antelope clearly had no structural integrity whatsoever, and did not behave the way a bullet designed for medium to large game should have behaved. In fact, it acted a lot more like a varmint bullet. Tex, it seems to me that you turned the heat up pretty quickly in this thread. It seems to me like you took things a little personally for some reason. Maybe you're one of the lucky people for whom this bullet has never exploded like a firecracker. That may be true (notice I'm not going to make it personal, in the way that you have, by calling you a liar) but the FACT of the matter is this...the BST has been cited hundreds and hundreds of times, by people who don't know one another and who have no ax to grind, as a bullet that blows up. Now, unless you Texas boys are so into conspiracy theories that you're convinced all these folks have collaborated in advance for some undisclosed reason, then I think the bullet's track record speaks for itself. Want a simple solution? Stop being so obnoxious and just start using Sierra Gamekings. They're just as accurate, if not more so, and they NEVER fail. Now, I'm sure you're reaction will be to start attacking me too...your MO has been established already...but the bottom line is this: there's no question that you took this thread in a nasty direction (perhaps out of frustration with Joe's solid argument, eventually backed up by his photo proof); and there's equally no question that the BST has become widely known as an undependable performer, and for good reason - it's a piece of crap.

quote:

Originally posted by Muggles:
...just start using Sierra Gamekings. They're just as accurate, if not more so, and they NEVER fail.

There are no absolutes in hunting or shooting. The first part of the 2nd sentence is arguable regarding accuracy. I've never had a Sierra shoot as well as a btip in 14+ different rifles/calibers. The second part, regarding NEVER failing is completely false. Maybe true for you, but not a true statement for all.

muggles wrote:

quote:

but there's no reason to start jumping ugly with the guy.

No one did. Re-read the posts. All I stated were facts and questioned bullet placement as it doesn't take a forensics specialist to see the direction of the bullet channel.

And I stated that making a blanket generalization after one use of the bullet was rather increduluous and was a argument that didn't hold water.

If that's"jumping ugly" (must be a regional phrase), then so be it. Be I won't sit back and let someone spew false information without calling them on it, like him claimimg that the .277 140 grain BT was originally a varmint bullet. That's bull -- and you know it, too.

Hog Hunter Wrote:

quote:

like him claimimg that the .277 140 grain BT was originally a varmint bullet. That's bull -

Not what I said. Look back. I said.

Joedjr Wrote:

quote:

It was made and originally designed as a long range varmint bullet. Nosler tweaked it to try to make it a hunting bullet. It didn't work.

I never mentioned .277 140 grain. I just mention the bullet not the size or caliber. Nosler started out with the BST as a varmint bullet.

Ballistic tips were designed as varmint bullets, that is still what they are best used for. Guy's like you TX like them on hogs, coyotes and the other little critters you shoot down there. Other's liked the name and wanted to use them on deer, (amazing what a catchy name will do for marketing) so some changes to the basic design were done and then they were produced in larger calibers for bigger game. Ballistic tips do exactly what they were designed to do, they fragment. They explode on impact.

Personally I don't like ballistic tips, I will almost guarantee that you can get much better terminal performance from a Sierra Game King and others than you will from a Ballistic Tip.

But if you like them and are confident in them, you should use them. I'm sure to you it doesn't matter if you blow up a pig or a squirrel occasionally. That's what BST's do.

I will use another premium bullet on my trophies.

Now isn't it great to have a country where you can have all these choices.

I have heard of other cases where BST's have failed, just look a little into the subject and the info is out there. No bullet design is perfect, except maybe Barnes X, and all are capable of failure. Just because you have'nt witnessed it, it doesn't mean that many others have not. I too think some of you took a hostile, "Dog pile on the rabbit" response to Joedjr's thread. Since none of you were present during his hunt, some of you make some preposterous claims about terminal ballistics based on your own analysis of a picture.
Why don't you challenge me on that subject?