If the 25-06 is good enough for elk why not just use a 220 Swift. This round has been proven on big animals by PO Ackley himself. This round is faster than the 25-06 and is able to penetrate thicker steel plate than the 25-06, this
has been proven by personal experience. We also have the X bullet because of this bullet we don't need to be concerned with large bullet diameter's. and weight. Also, because of this
smaller dia. the bullet will penetrate better than the larger 25 cal bullet, so angle shots should be no problem with the Swift. If a broadhead can kill an elk then the 220 Swift can with greater effect. Now some will debate that the 60g NP is better than the X bullet, I will stick with the Xs.

BTW, Our local meat cutter does work on the side during hunting season. In the middle of his shop is a post. Stuck On that post are over a hundred broadheads. These broadheads were cut out of "rifle killed" elk.

Wow! No kidding huh? You conducted those penetration tests yourself?

So old Parker himself did some Elk with the swift? I must confess, I havent heard that story. Must be from a book I havent read yet.. And I was under the impression that he was a pretty smart guy.

In any hunting venue there are a select group that would try to harvest an elephant with a 22 hornet just to say they were successful. Using the right toll for the job at hand seperates the men from the boys. The 220 swift is and always has been a fine varmint round. The 220 swift was never developed for big game capabilities in mind. Choosing the 220 swift to harvest Elk only proves one thing, reduced mental capacity on the part of the gentleman doing the shooting. I wonder where we would be in rifle technology if all the barrel makers were using a variable speed hand drill to deep drill rifle barrels.
It takes all kinds to make the world go round and you can sure find them on this forum from time to time. In any future hunts for Elk I will continue to use my 300 Winchster magnum with the 165 grain PSP hunting bullet sighted in 3" high at 100 Yrads.

I built my twin girls a pair of 220 Swift rifles when they were ready to start hunting and so far we have harvested many dozens of animals varying from springbuck to gemsbuck and kudu. No failures, no lost animals. One of the rifles has now been converted to 22x64 in a quest for more speed (4750fps) and I hunted this past season with it. Pure pleasure! We hunt on the basis that the shot is taken only in the sure knowledge that the shot will connect with the right spot on the animal, no head and neck shots are taken unless the shot is close, and we do not use bullets made from tissue paper.

Don't disrepect the killing ability of broadheads. Like anything else they have to penetrate.

I believe I either read or heard that Jack O'Conner once said he could take any animal he encounter crossing Canada east to west with a .22LR.

Doesn't mean he could do it under all of the circumstances he would encounter them in though.

Doesn't mean everyone else could perform the same feat.

Doesn't mean we should try either.

Why, I remember where they used to use a .22LR on the kill floor in the meat packing houses in Souix Falls. And if they use 22LRs for 1,000 # steers then the 220 Swift is adequate for taking elk.

Get real here! Do you really think a .220 Swift is "PROPER" medicine to ethically take big game or are you just wanting to make a statement about your marksmanship?

I've elk hunter for 30 some years. I've hunted every year and usually take an elk averaging one every 2 to 3 years (started when I was 20 or so and I've passed on taking elk when I was trophy hunting) these can be really tough animals to put down. I've shot them from 75 yards to 250 or 300 yards. I've seen them shot with 300 win mags from one ridge to the other up on the north fork of the Shoshone at damn near a quarter mile. In many of those instances the elk either stood there for several moments, wobbled and dropped or showed no indication of a hit.

And you want to bust one with a what, 60 or 70 grain bullet?

Not in Wyoming, that caliber is not legal.

I think you were wise to raise this question on the board. I hope you follow the recommendations of the experienced hunters who will post their advice.

Oh, BTW, welcome to AR.

Some guys insist on practicing improvidence or else they like to engage in stuntsmanship - I'm not sure which exercise in fun and games is being enjoyed here.

Keith, help me out on this one, but I remember reading that Jack Atcheson, Sr. once made a comment to the effect that he'd like to tie knots in the barrels of all the light-caliber rifles some people insist on using for elk hunting.

I agree with him. The .220 Swift was designed as a varmint-only cartridge. The .25-06 was designed as a combination varmint/deer & pronghorn cartridge. They are not elk cartridges, and they weren't designed to be elk cartridges.

Yes, of course both of them have been successfully used by hunters on elk. But hey, W.D.M. Bell used the mild 7X57 Mauser cartridge on lots of elephants as well, but that doesn't mean anything in the real world as it exists today. I wouldn't use or recommend the 7mm Mauser for elephants (even if the law allowed) any more than I'd use or recommend the .220 Swift for elk. A wise craftsman selects the right tool for the task at hand: It's the mark of professionalism.

AD

leo,

You could change that from broadheads to hardheads and it would mean just the same.

Slow day, SU ? I'd like to see the .220 Swift load that can compete with a premium bullet .25-06 load.
I've seen the Swift kill deer. As well as the .22 LR. E

The only thing I've ever "pushed",is placement,projectile selection and cartridge selection and in that order of importance.

I'm a proponent of being serious enough about Hunting with a rifle,to be good with one. Also a proponent of using a projectile suited to the task at hand(volatile projectiles interest me little to none on Game). I'm also of the stance that it does not take some ungodly paper energy figure,to cleanly harvest Game.

I'm more than partial to the Swift in general and have had quite a few of them and have always been pleased. However,it wouldn't rate anywhere near the top of the heap,of rifles in the closets that I'd crave to tote after Elk.

On the flipside,should push come to shove and something very out of the ordinary occur,I'd have zero reservation chewing on Elk steak provided to me via the Swift as opposed to starving to death.

No great feat to slap something upside the head at modest range,with a highly accurate rifle. Few would dispute that and in that situation the actual chambering is largely moot.

I'm thinking the crux of this Thread,is to provoke conflicting opinion,more than to lend merit to the Swift as The Ultimate slayer of Elk. I'd concur whole heartedly,in that there are countless other chamberings more in line with that task. I'd surmise most perusing this thread,feel likewise.

However,I'm also of the opinion that there is more than one way to get to the finish line and what route someone else favors,may not be my cup of tea and vice versa. Within those available means,lie many different trains of thought,many fueled by their fair share of debate.

I find it foolish,that many will fault another's approach,despite the former having had monumental success with minimal fuss and the latter having zero experience in the alternate techniques. Some guys just like to bitch,to preach their ignorance. If it works for you,have at it and keep the good thing going. Just beware looking down your nose,you might really be missing something.

Your mileage may vary..................

Well come on guys cut me a little slack. First of
all I said PO killed (big animals) not elk. These
were burro's around the Sligman AZ area. An area
I grew up near. Tough critters. Also I have a couple of close friends in Anaconda, MT that use
220 Swifts on elk. Heavy Barrled 700s with varmit scopes. They sit on clear cuts and take shots no farther than 250 yards. Not my way of doing things
but it works for them. Like you said BS, shot placement, bullet selection, I have a swift that whose bullets penetrate thick plate, I have compared it to 25 and 27 caliber rifles and they
don't come close to its penetrating ability...on plate that is.
I brought this subject up not out of boredom..E.
or to stir up trouble. I brought it up because I have seen that smaller caliber rifles are not reliable on elk. To compare and say a broodhead will work so why not a (two five o six). That argument is weak in my observation. I won't get in
the broadhead debate over this. I have killed my age in elk and I just turned 45. That being said, I have used many different calibers to put down elk. This year I'm going 338 and use a 225 or 250 bullet. I like big exit holes, somthing smaller calibers don't provide. It only take "one time" with a smaller caliber to prove to the hunter who has to push the envelope that he made a mistake. Sure bad shots can be taken with a heavy caliber. But I believe that persons chances of collecting that elk are better than a bad shot (high lung or liver)with a small caliber. Guys, I had that one time experience, it ruined my hunt and shamed me.
I pushed the envelope with small and paid for it.

Please don't think I'm being disrespectful to any of you. It may not ever happen to you, but then again that's what I said.

Have a great weekend!!

I dont think a 220 Swift is a legal caliber in Anaconda Mt. Pretty sure you have to tote at least a .24 caliber in Mt. for elk.

Oh please. I don't think unethical covers it! It is just plain criminal. Sure you can kill anything with any projectile firing device. I once (many years ago) got fed up with a particular little buck eating at the cabbage plants in the garden. He got so he would come in and help himself in the daylight as well. So I got out the Diana pellet gun and thought 'I'll teach him a lesson'. From about 50 yards I 'stung' him in the neck, only problem was the flat nosed pellet penetrated his jugular and lodged in his spinal column between two vertebra. Dropped like he was hit with a ton of bricks and expired without moving an inch. Moral: I now hunt all big game with that pellet gun and let me tell you how much money I have saved on ammo! Those pellet guns are the only way to go, besides, they are quiet! I once shat a 300 pound blackie at 235 yards and well.......

Give me a break! 220 on elk, jeesh!

You gents would likely get all sort of bent out of shape,when perusing Barnes #3. There is commentary there,that touches upon the 22Hornet used in conjunction with their 45gr X and it's effectiveness on Zebra,when implemented by a young girl.

Dead is dead,in my book and there has always been more than one way to skin a cat................

You might be surprised when you start useing low yielding projectiles on elk sized game. There are limitations, even when you fully penetrate the vitals. Not to long ago I cracked a very big bull with my 250 savage, I broke his on side shoulder and penetrated both his lungs. He ran alittle over 1/2 mile and I believe was ready to run another 1/2 mile had I not shot him in the neck. When I caught up with him he was full of life and not nearly ready to die. The load was a 100 gr nosler PT. When I skinned him the shoulder was broken alright but the bullet had made little more then a thick pencil sized hole through his lungs. I believe this projectile was seriously slowed by his shoulder and continued through his lugs (not hard to do after the shoulder/muscles are defeated)
I dont care what solid objects you are shooting su35 the 25s will out penetrate any of the 22s on game.
The 22s are not able to handle a wide variety of shots and THUS ARE NOT EFFICACIOUS KILLERS ON LARGE GAME.

Ummmmmm 25-06 on elk and the 220 Swift is better!
I don't wish to square off with any of you great big game hunters, but unless your taking heads shots only, I beg to differ with you all on at least 80% of the time with that caiber gun in your hands.

So it will penetrate steel plate. Is that is your reasoning for using it? I know elk can be killed with a .243 and have seen it done by a very good hunter and skilled shot. A guy who never rushes his shot and never shoots beyond 100 yards or so. Now one has to be skilled in all departments to be able to pull that kind of a feat off. Let's be realistic and save those 22 calibers for what they were intended, varmints and not 600 pound animals.

Minimum in my book on elk is a .270 with a 150 grain premium bullet and there again one had better be very selective on his or her shots.
I preferr a 300 Whinny and 180 grain premium bullet on a trophy bull. We won't speak about wounding animals with the 22 caliber's or how many you thought you missed and went off and died somewhere else for the coyotes to finish you job.

When I dropped Big Sticks name I should have explained that what I understand that he promotes is the use of, light for the caliber, X bullets on game. Many get all worked up when marginal calibers are mentioned for elk so this was the wrong thread to bring him into this but Gerald is in here with his use of such bullets on African game. So the topic is alive.

All this small caliber stuff does in my opinion is reduce the recoil some. The same length case in a larger caliber will just hit harder and the trajectory is not that big a deal out to as far as I shoot anyway.

So as an example a .243 Wins 85 gr bullet makes 2055 FPE at the muzzle and 1120 at 300 yards but the same case in .35 caliber with a 225 partition makes 3100 FPS for starters and hits with 1900 FPE at 300 yards. That's a big difference in the same size rifle or case for that matter.

It does not matter a lot to me which cartridge I would shoot aiming wise. I can handle either. So it's just a ego thing to promote tiny bullets. In the case of the manufacurers it's business.

So the partitions and now the monolitics have enabled the small bullets to penetrate deep enough, more of the time, so as not to fail so often. This is all that has happened.

Your still making a smaller hole in the beast with less energy. The fact that someone saw it work does not make much of an advance.

But it's fun to discuss and try this stuff out.

To all,

Let me step in and make an assumption here(despite it being dangerous,to do so).

My perception of SU35's thrust,was NOT to promote the Swift on Wapiti. I believe it was/is a tongue in cheek barb(denoted by a smiley-faced moniker,within his first Post),to elicit conversation and nothing more. It much suprises me,that some care to read more into the matter,than that which was offered initially............

Don,

Now as far as me and my approach,I am very much an X bullet fan and often choose to launch them pretty fast(various Hot 22's,243Ackley,25-284's,25-06Ackley,257Wby's,7mmRemmag,7STW,300Wby,300Super,30-378Wby,338Ultra,375H&H Ackley,378Wby and others of that ilk).

I also like them,in what most would consider more "mainstream" offerings,at lesser impact velocities(in comparison to the more capacious deviations,within a like diameter). The 223/223Ackley,243,7-08 and 308Win foremost in mind,as vehicles to launch the X at more mainstream velocities.

However,within both approaches I do much favor what most again would term,"light" for diameter projectiles within the available X offerings. Within reason,SD is just for conversation,as is "energy".

I like a high impact velocity and prefer to smash bone. Within those lighter weights,trajectory is capably helped,as is wind drift and impact velocity(helped by their better than "average" BC's)all while still realizing critter smashing Ooomph.

There are many roads to happiness and that is mine................

The BC's of the X bullets are suspect thus I have used the BC's of Partitions in my calculations. Energy is not for "conversation" it's what does the work. Without energy nothing at all would happen.

The wind drift of an 85 gr 243 bullet at 300 yards is eight inches and the same case at .35 caliber with the 225 Partition will drift seven and one half inches. All in the same compact package. What will they think of next?

Dont argue with Big Stick... he has been useing the RUMs and WSMs for decades.

Well, I think someone's is bigger than someone else's, and has a lot higher SD. The BC is classified.........

Published BC's are a starting point,for reference. Actual on range performance,is the true determination and that is easy to do.

Take the Published BC,run it through the chronograph and then run a ballistic chart upon the data(I like the PACT Ballistic Computer as it does it all,in one unit). Regardless of outcome,one should confirm all generated data,with downrange performance and correct ANY discrepency(be it a BC error,scope tracking error,etc.).

My focal point is to optimize a given case size,with a sound projectile,that best melds it's abilities for the task at hand.

A straight up 243Win,will easily push the 85gr XLC at 3300fps,even in a modest length tube. Said combo drifts 6.5" in a 10mph full value crosswind at the 300yd line and 12" at 400yds.

Then you infer a 358Win(a 35cal-243Win essentially),will both push a 225 Partition at 3100fps and is posible? Holy fucking dogshit Batman,that is 358STA(35-8mmRemmag)velocities! I'd say your 35 upon the same case and housed "within the same action" as the 243Win,is loaded beyond the CRAZY threshold and then some.

The 358Win(same case and action,as the 243Win),will push the 225's you mention at 2400fps. It will then drift about 9 inches at 300yds.

For conversation,the 243/85gr XLC combo drops -16.45" at 400yds,utilizing a 200yd zero and drifts 12" at that distance,while retining 2348fps velocity and 1040ft lbs of energy.

The 358Win/225Partition combo drops -33.0" at 400yds,with the same 200yd zero and drifts 19" at that distance,while retaining 1685fps velocity and 1350ft lbs of energy.

Point being(since you brought it up),that the "itty-bitty" 243 shoots over one foot flatter,drifts a half a foot less and arrives at the speed in which the 225 was launched,for a trade-off of 300lbs of energy. Plus I disfavor zeroing a rifle 3" high at 100yds(required to zero the 358Win/225PT combo at 200yds). The 243's 100yd zero height of 1",is MUCH more to my liking. Zero the 243Win at 3" high at 100yds,like the 358 and trajectory differences are much more dramatic(and of "fair" comparison).

My preference are for those attributes,coupled with the effects of the bullet's arrival at 2400-ish fps upon impact. The 85XLC in that diameter and at that speed,is a most impressive tool for punching tags and that isn't idle speculation nor theorized nonsense.

Your propsed 358STA performance,upon the 308Win case,MUCH intrigues me. I'd build one!...............

Yes, with the right bullet and well placed, the 220 Swift would kill an elk like the hammer of God. OK.

I COULD jump parachuteless from an airplane flying at 20,000 ft and only suffer a few bruises after hitting the ground. (This was actually done by an RAF airman in WW2 when his bomber caught on fire. He lived to tell the tale and the Germans themselves certified it really happened.)

And I think I COULD probably take print outs of some of the dumber threads on this website and probably stop a buffalo charge by calmly reading them aloud as the animal thundered down on me. I would call such documents my DGP's. Dangerous Game Posts

And to end on a totally bizarre thought: We COULD all just do the sensible thing and hunt with the right rifle for the job at hand. We could all get within reasonable range. And we could all only fire when we are sure of a killing strike. And we could all live happily ever after.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa, never happen. I told you that was a totally bizarre idea.

[ 12-15-2002, 05:49: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

The 220 Swift used to be a fine varmint round in a time when there were no commercially available bullets that could reliably be pushed beyond 4000 fps. That was a while back. Today many calibers that were pushed into traditional roles, due to such bullet limitations, are finding extended uses. The Swift is one of them, together with the 22-250, 6.5x55, 7x57, 303 British, 9.3x62, 375H&H and 416 Rigby, to name but a few.

I am not saying that the Swift is the elk caliber of choice, I am saying technology has evolved it to much more than a varminter.

The matter of whether a caliber is legal to use on game is of little practical value as such laws generally were made decades ago and have not kept pace with modern developments. In many cases politics played a role in their origin.

The bottom line is that I would rather see a responsible man in the field with a 220 Swift than a fool toting a 338 Lapua Magnum.

One must be careful not to equate penetration of hard objects with effectiveness on game. There is little similarity. Even wet paper is quite often way off the mark when comparing calibers and various different types of bullet construction.

Something else that is often overlooked is that penetration on game is largely governed by how much the bullet breaks on impact and at what speed it arrives at the animal. The momentum of the broken bullet will determine the penetration and the energy will determine the volume of the temporary wound channel. Should the temporary wound channel be large enough, it will contribute to the permanent wound channel.

On that basis, I would rather use a 40 grain monometallic bullet that retains 90% of its weight than a 100 grain bullet that retains 40% weight. Why? because the 40 grain bullet will arrive with several hundred fps more than the 100 grainer and, with similar momentum values, will have much more energy. So, penetration depth of the two will be similar, but with a larger volume permanent wound channel with the 40 grain monometallic bullet.

However, as in motor racing, a good big one will always beat a good little one. The emphasis is on good.

Comments on the 220 Swift from Speer #12;

"Poor judgement on the part of some shooters didnt help the swift either. Some early gun writers, letting enthusiasm get in the way of reason, touted the ability of such high velocity bullets to produce spectacular kills on deer. Even though the light, varmint type bullets in factory ammunition couldnt give adequate penetration on Big game, some hunters listened to the writers instead of COMMON SENSE and the swift accounted for more than its share of wounded deer."

A .22 caliber bullet punching a hole through a steel plate is not the same as DEEP penetration on an animal. Rest assured that whatever .22 caliber bullet you are using, a considerably heavier one will penetrate deeper into an animal than it will because the heavier one retains its energy better.

Take a large 45 or 50 caliber bullet for instance, it would take a HUGE amount of energy for it to penetrate the same steel plate because the larger bullet disperses its energy over a larger area of the plate than a .22 bullet. Do you think that your swift would penetrate deeper into a buffalo than a 45-70? I dont..

There is a typo in my post on the energy of a 358 Win cal 225 Partition at the muzzle. The correct label is FPE and not FPS. Obviously such a case cannot produce 3100 FPS.

The velocities were taken from the max loads for each cartrige in Nosler #5.

The data Big Stick has published is skewed. Before this turns into MK thread I will just say to use common sense. I feel that it and the facts are on my side.

The term "troll" springs to mind here.......

No troll here Pete,

Did you read all my threads? I'm against using the small calibers on elk, My poke is at those who advocate it.

Don,

I addressed what you wrote,now you don't like it?

Should you feel I'm in error,please straighten me out................

I won't use any caliber or bullet that will not shoot lenth wise through the animal I am hunting...

I better advise the above post is my advise..I have shot a lot of animals with lesser rounds than should have been used, and that is how I arreived at the above....and I apply that to the larger species of big game, not so much deer.

Hey Stick, not sure if you were addressing me or not. Yes, you hit it spot on and yes I was taking
a poke(not so much at you) to provoke thought on the subject. Pure tongue n cheek!

Bob,

net snafus happen

[ 12-16-2002, 06:18: Message edited by: su35 ]

Heck the 220 Swift isn't legal in most states for deer-And if isn't consider lagel for deer how could anyone in there right mind think of taking an Elk with it. Use it for what it was intended for Coy dogs and P-Dogs. Looks like we have some poachers in MT using and illegal weapon?
Quoted from MT Regs--
"Caliber: There is no caliber limitation during the general big game hunting season (except as specified under shotgun) for the taking of big game animals in Montana. Caliber: There is no caliber limitation during the general big game hunting season (except as specified under shotgun) for the taking of big game animals in Montana. Match the caliber and firearm to the size of the animal hunted. ed. "

What kind of BS statement is this!! Match the caliber to the animal- Thats why we have bone heads shooting Elk with 220 Swifts!!!

[ 12-16-2002, 22:43: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

If we can get some 220 swift matchking advocates
we can get a 300 + thread going.

I have read that a Grizzly can be killed with a 22lr but I don't think that I would go Grizzly hunting with one. The most important advise I could give anyone is What ever you hunt use enough gun to quickly to the job. I suppose you could kill an Elk with a stick if you could get him to stand still long enough for you to beat his brains in.

[ 12-17-2002, 00:20: Message edited by: Handloader ]

I believe that Forest Gump said it best "Stupid is as stupid does". As hunters we have an ethical duty to use the best caliber and bullet for the job at hand and using a 220 swift for Elk isn't the best choice and the 25/06 isn't either. Because Tony Stewart won the NASCAR Championship in a Grand Prix doesn't mean I can enter mine in the Daytona 500.

Funny how folks are quick to weigh other's abilities,ONLY in a direct comparison of their own and often limitied abilities/experiences at that. That is directed at noone,but is an observation.

I've seen more stupid idiots with rifles,chambered in what most the whiners here would term as being "big enough",that had ZERO business being out of the asylum let alone armed(with anything) and in hot pursuit of Elk. Surely,I'm not the only guy who has seen scores of cannon toting assholes,who's best clain to fame is the ability to be able to discern the difference betwixt a 6-pack and a case of beer,4 times out of 10?

Give the guy a break that has been filling his freezer since Christ was a Cowboy,with the rifle and chambering he is best with and has had zero trouble doing so.

Idiots are idiots,regardless what they have slung on their shoulder and the guy willing to spend the time and has a lick of savvy,hasn't ever struggled punchin'tags,despite others not being enamoured with his specific approach.

Should you wish to whine,here's a little cheese. Within portions of the State of Alaska,it is legal to harvest swimming Caribou out of your boat WITH a 22lr.......................