quote:

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Originally posted by Nickudu:
Paul H,

According to your horsepower analogy:

.284 Dia. / 140 gr. Bullet = 100 H.P.

.308 Dia. / 180 gr. Bullet (+30% bullet weight and +10% diameter) = 120 H.P.

.338 Dia. / 225 gr. Bullet (+25% bullet weight and +10% diameter) = 135 H.P.

Do you still think the '06 developes only 20 H.P. more than the 7mm-08?

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Nick,

Yes I do! Lets look at what weights the given rounds drive bullets to 2700 fps. I think one will find the 7-08 will push a 160 gr 2700, the -06 pushes 180's 2700, and the 338 pushes 250's 2700. In that case lets call the 7-08 100 hp, -06 112 hp, and the 338 156 hp, based on bullet weights. If you want to factory in the frontal areas, and bump the -06 up to 120 hp, then the 338 becomes 200 hp.

I simply don't understand how folks give the -06 the sacred do all rating, yet the 7-08 the barely adequate rating. I think folks have attributed attributes to the -06 that it simply doesn't posess. It is a good round, but not that much more then any of the passle of 6.5, 270's and 7mm rounds that fire bullets of similar weights to similar velocities.

I see it similar to my 358 vs 338 arguings, funny thing is, I bet some of the folks that weigh in as -06 fans over the 7-08, would weigh in as 338 fans over the 358!

Finally, I would take the -06 over the 7-08, just as I would take the 358 over the 338, but I would never be deluded into thinking in those choices that there is a signifigant difference in performance, because there isn't.

If I could question Big Stick I would ask.

1. Do animals ever get away wounded?
2. Which cartridge will make the bigger hole?
3. Do you agree that some of us can shoot a 30-06 as well as needed? (The point here is that Big Stick shoots a .338 Whatever and I am sure it kicks like heck.)
4. Do you agree that the 1-10 twist in the 7-08 limits it's ablity to shoot heavier bullets.
5. Do you agree that at short range the 7-08's high velocity may cause bullet failure on large boned animals? (Ref. Haralds site)

In summary these two cartridges are not far apart in performance. It's just like the old .270 Win vrs 06 debate from the past. But Big Stick dropped the .308W as a choice in this debate really quick when the velocity that the 06 can get with the 200 gr Partition was pointed out. That leaves the smaller cartrides in the dust and takes the 30-06 into bone crusher catagory.

Then Big Stick dropped the .257 Weatherby as the all around superior rifle when visions of years of toting a 26" bbl rifle with $39 a box ammo up and down W. Va's hills was visulaized. Needless to say not many want to shoot elk with a .257 Weatherby either so that cartridge while flat shooting is not a all around rifle.

The 30-06 remains the best choice in my opinion. Others are so close that there is all kinds of overlap.

I might concede that the 7-08 is a little better for a beginner on light game.

That's all. For a rifleman give me a bullet to shoot, not a toy.

This is WAY off topic, but Beemanbeme, I am new to this board and noticed you live in Frametown, I am originally from Clay County. Good to see another WV voice.

Jim

To answer your questions:

1)No. I've never experienced troubles,killing critters. The difficulty to do so,escapes me.

2)I'm not interested in hole boring excersizes,with the class of Game I'd pursue with either the 30-06/308/7-08. The 600Nitro interests me little and would do no better.

I would state,that the 140X in the 7-08,will expand to a diameter larger in size,than most every Factory 30-06 load available. Further,it will penetrate in a fashion,that would likely suprise you(I've yet to find that bullet within Game).

You profess the 30-06 with a 150gr Ballistic Tip is better than the diminutive 7mm's,with a superb bullet? I'd disagree. There is much more to the equation,than minutia in bore diameter. I feel projectile selection to be second in importance,only to placement.

3)I think MOST guys can't shoot a 22lr. And that is a sad state of current affairs.

4)I think if you are wishing to shoot the heaviest of available bullet weights,in a cartridge of medium capacity,that is an excersize in futility.

Further,if my wish was to shoot 175gr projectiles in the 7mm bore size,the 7-08 would be amongst my last choices. As would the 30-06,if my desire was to propel 250's.

Both points moot and stupid.

5)I believe if one wished to experience total bullet failure,he could do so with most any cartridge available. It is equally easy to make bullets fail in the 7-08 as it is the 30-06,because they operate at very similar velocities.

Did I ever mutter a word,that led you to believe I endorsed shitty bullets in anything?

I never aborted the 308Win. Those interested in debate,were more interested in the attributes and comparison of the 7-08. I was happy to oblige them.

I submit anything you could do with a 30-06/200gr Partition,would be done just as tidy with the 165gr X in the same chambering. Same goes the 308Win. I shoot the X in most everything as a steady diet. I'd try to explain,but it must be seen,to be believed.

Now your back to cussing the 257Wby,with "expensive" Factory ammo. If that is the case,we must return to equating the 30-06 to the 7-08,employing solely Factory fodder to stay on an even keel.

Have you read a SINGLE post regarding the 257Wby with good bullets on Elk,that was without favor? Have you personally launched those bullets at Elk from that chambering,to see for yourself? Have you even watched someone else launch those good bullets,out of that chambering at Elk?

I've done/seen all of the above and feel "worthy" to comment. It works and well. For that reason and other animals killed with it,I certainly rate it as a SUPERB all around cartridge. I aborted a pair of STW's,due to the 257Wby's excellence.(I suppose the STW won't kill anything either?)

I can't argue your opinion of the '06 being your idea of "best". My focal point was to accurately represent other chamberings,that also house it's abilities. Which you endorse by noting the obvious overlap,of many fine choices.

As a Rifleman,I weigh the design of the particular bullet,with more thought than most. That is likely why I've never struggled to cleanly harvest Game...........

I had dismal results and ABSOLUTE bullet failure with a 140gr Ballistic Tip,at fairly sedate velocity(likely 2600 fps impact). That was the last one I shot at Game.

I punched the tag,but it wasn't pretty. And yes,it was a 7-08.............

You hit her on the head. I'm frail.

If you bypassed the 257Wby,to tote a 30-06 as a premier Muley cartridge? Well....I can't help you,as you can't help yourself.

I'll start the fitness regimen. I appreciate the tip..............

quote:

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Originally posted by Big Stick:
You must specify,that which tickles you most..........

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Big Stick,

I have become very interested to say the least in the facts and foresight behind your theory. As a barrelmaker, I've seen a few things here and there, a few things for and against your posts that I could repute unquestionably, just wanna make sure you have
your facts straight..

Give ME the straight dope, I'm growing tired of the rhetoric....

I gather you are the former head nut of HS? Correct? Your reputation is one of candor and excellence,coupled with a great working knowledge of the rifle.

So I simply ask you. Where/what,do you disfavor,from the published data I have offered throughout this thread?..........

quote:

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Originally posted by Big Stick:
JR,

I gather you are the former head nut of HS? Correct? Your reputation is one of candor and excellence,coupled with a great working knowledge of the rifle.

So I simply ask you. Where/what,do you disfavor,from the published data I have offered throughout this thread?..........

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It would very much suprise me,that someone deeply versed in the 308,could find much favor in the 30-06 in comparison.

Though I've surmised before and missed that intuition.........

quote:

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Originally posted by Big Stick:
You hit the ball,and I'll happily field it.

It would very much suprise me,that someone deeply versed in the 308,could find much favor in the 30-06 in comparison.

Though I've surmised before and missed that intuition.........

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If your contention is that the 30-06 is a MUCH superior beast,in a direct comparison to the 7-08 or 308. I'd very much like to hear your thoughts.

If we are sniffing butts,lets deem that process as now complete...........

If yer sniffin' butts, you must be a devildog, GO ARMY!! just kidding.....

You know as well as I do that you have to fit the cartridge to the application.

IF I had to pick one cf cartridge out of the hundreds as the overall best, it would be the .223 because of immense availability of both ammunition and rifles which will accept the round. The next would be the 30'06, for the same reasons.

The 7'08 is superior ballistically (thru the air) comparably to the 30'06, but, depending on the situation, not enough for me to get too excited. If I am dotting the 'i' at 600 yds, the '06 could possibly fall short to the 7'08, but as far as dropping a game animal at 100-600 yds, personally I am more comfortable with the 180gr Nosler Partition. I would "rather" shoot the 7'08 due to less recoil, and I know it will shoot as straight as the '06.

Why do the silhouetter's shoot the 7'08? Less recoil, same result. I agree.

Well, why don't we just all conform to the 6.5x284 then? Actually, it's my fave round.

I will prefer the '06 due to the availability of quality ammunition and equipment. period. Apples and oranges. No sd's, no bc's, no bs, just plain if I wanna shoot it wherever whenever, I can.

I figure you guys have been as techy as is needed, just cut the crap and shoot what you feel is best for the application. Shut up and shoot. In a big-game forum this should not be a discussion, it's a non-issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by JR_rcsd:
Shut up and shoot. In a big-game forum this should not be a discussion, it's a non-issue.

[/B]

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Way to go JR_rcsd!

ZM

Dead is dead in my book. I just never fell victim to the thought,that the 30-06 was without peer(or real competition)in the administration of that event.

I find it difficult to swallow,that the 30-06 is the "best" all arounder,or best beginner cartridge.

Too many good choices out there,to deem it the Holy Grail..............

I call a spade a spade, anyone who knows me will tell ya that

if yer lookin' for a pissin' contest, look for a benchrest forum, but this thread honestly does not hold in this big-game forum, it'll all end up a bar-room brawl and no one will be the wiser

We can spout numbers back and forth if you'd like, and it's likely we'll agree on most everything on both ends, it just doesn't do any good here, except prove to people we are pompous jackasses.

Is 30'06 the HOLY GRAIL? No. Is 7'08 the answer? No. That's as far as this conversation will ever get here, as it should.

later

In particular:

"As a barrelmaker, I've seen a few things here and there, a few things for and against your posts that I could repute unquestionably, just wanna make sure you have
your facts straight."

I asked for nothing in particular,nor malicious. Only for you to quantify your remarks. You deem that out of order? Or the makin's for a "pissin" contest"?

Seems odd to weigh in with a heavy hand,then run for cover.................

1) run for cover? hahah, I went to bed!

2) WE are not in a pissing contest, I wouldn't have it, but this thread has developed into one

3) I don't think you are trying to run the '06 into the ground. I think we are both well versed in the versatility of both calibers, and I think we agree that there is no ONE cartridge that could be considered the best for every application.

4) I HAVE stated my reasons for which each cartridge has an edge for different applications. The .284" bullet will kill an animal just as dead as a .308" bullet. But, in practicality, if I had a choice of just one rifle, it would be the '06, solely for availability of ammunition.

5) This thread sounds a lot like conversations held at the local pub. I know you do not intend to do this, and forgive me fellas if I sound contentious, don't get too technical on a hunting forum. If someone thinks their ol' rusted up winchester leever action turdy-turdy is the best by gawd deer killin' rifle in the world, roll with it. I'm sure you were just trying to provide other options, but apparently some took it as you trying to make them look ignorant.

6) Which is why I stepped in. You don't need to prove how smart you are to me, and I'm not going to be provoked into a slingfest. I've been there and done that.

7) I do like your last response in reference to the bullets for each cartridge. Not the sd references, but the hows and whys of the ratios of bullet weight to caliber, and how it reflects to performance. Well done.

8) We should not read an article about the 'world's greatest cartridge for whatever' in the latest Guns n' Blammo and take that as the word of god. It's someones opinion. A lot of gun writers would say the 338 Win is the ultimate elk rifle and should not be shot with anything less than 'x' muzzle energy/velocity, the Swedes would think differently as they've used the 6.5 Swede for years with great results, it's all opinionated crap! What works works. It's bullet penetration and energy retention in relation to the shock absorbed by the animal.
And it's how much punishment the shooter is willing to take on his end.

done for now, back to work

JR

My last post directed your way,wasn't to berate you. I go to sleep myself and understand that need(grin).

I'm glad you savvied the crux of my posts. My intent was to be as fair as possible,when discussing things and in presenting data gathered from various sources.

As you touched on,the differences the masses may think are etched in stone,really are not so. That seems to inspire sparks,when you lay the cards on the table,so all can have a good look. Nostalgia and romance,are powerful entities.

There is little danger of my ever giving the appearance,of being smart. I'm not blessed with the attributes. I'm a self-professed dummy and stand by that statement.

However,even this dummy can easily discern,that there are many ways to accomplish a task. That was my initial contention,it was stated clearly and it remains a fact. Despite some not liking that notion.

It is difficult to bring something to the table for discussion,that most have never used in the field or range. Yet feel compelled to comment upon,with prejudice and speculation. That is where the spark turns to fire and things start burning. Also time when those that know the least,say the most. That is always colorful and often entertaining,but can never be avoided.

So don't think for a second,that I hold myself in high esteem,I am very much a realist. I'm contented in my role as a knuckle dragger,throughout this life. Suits me fine.

But even us simple folks,fully understand it is the Indian and not the arrow. There are too many excellent choices,that remain obscure due to Old School thinking,that no longer applies in the same context.

Guys that understand that,say little,those that don't are quick to take exception.............

You know how good bullets make a difference and you forget,I've seen you and Flinch shoot(grin).

However,you are the CHAMP. I'll not ever forget your first class work,on your Bear. Hard to top that one and that with all respect and sincerity. I loved it,likely more than you did!

We will disagree on this one. Because I abandoned the '06 in favor of the 7-08. My point is,there are a lot of dandies available.

Suprises me,that noone has extolled the virtues of the 25-06,thus far.......

Further,I've sent you enough stuff,with the 7-08 in action with good bullets,that you surely can't refute it works very nicely?

Can you?..................

I gotta disagree.

"Good" bullets in the 7-08,incorporates a lot of territory and I'd surmise that as being most anything except a Ballistic Tip(worthy of it's own thread,again). That due to it's "bullet friendly",velociy threshold.

I've never nuked a Core-Lokt in a 7-08 and shot them for quite a while. trying to do just that,in earnest(busting bone). The Speer 145gr BTSP was another very good "normal" bullet.

When the X came on line,I gravitated to them in most everything,solely as cheap insurance. I am a shoulder cruncher of the first order. If I could script every shot on Game,to suit me,it would be a full broadside with both shoulders lined up. I'd happily break both and bust out another tag.

I very much agree with your description of Joe Average. But am commenting that bullet selection in the 7-08/308/'06,is much less critical than in numerous other fast stepping cartridges. Some cartridges are more forgiving of projectile integrity. The prior mentioned trio,foremost in my mind,as they operates sub 3000fps at the muzzle with most weights.

A good cartridge only becomes better,with the introduction of superior bullets. I subscribe very much to that train of thought,as you know.

My contention is,I feel the .284" 140gr Core-Lokt to be an equal to the .308" 165gr Core-Lokt,in frangibility. While you could certainly do better for both,there are poorer choices too. They are not a gross mismatch of bullet construction,at their respective velocities,in my opinion. Those likely are the two most purchased projectiles,in those chamberings,that comes in Factory ammo.

Further,I believe the 7-08 to be a cartridge that is easier to shoot well. Which never hurts things.

To equate things more,I'd of never taken the shot presented,on my Bear last Spring,if armed with either a 7-08 or '06.

I firmly believe knowing when to shoot and when to pass,is very important criteria. Further I know you can routinely do things with a superb projectile,that will leave one very disgruntled if tried with a lesser grade bullet.

My point is,I wouldn't have shot my Bear in the ass,had I not been carrying my 375H&H Ackley Improved with 270gr FailSafes.

I believe in limitations and adhereing to them...........

You yourself said that you have witnessed hundreds of deer killed with both and the 06 does a better job.

Please do not take this wrong but though I have never hunted west of the Mississipppi I have used both and seen deer weighing 160 to 220 shot with both the 7-08 and 06 and any slight difference in killing power would fall on the side of the little 7-08 in my experience. Yes this may sound assanine to anyone memorizing balistic charts but the fact remains that you and I have both witnessed several deer killed and have come away with two different opinions on the effectiveness of th 08.

I think Big Stick is missing your point, perhaps I could state it for ya, it's not that the 140gr Corelokt's is the missing link , but the fact that the 180 grain Nosler partition is a helluva lot more readily available. You can get '06 ammo anywhere. It is really hard to find 7'08 ammo, trust me...

Little extra recoil - I guess, but I do OK with it.

I have know idea where you live but I do believe that in most places 7-08 ammo is cheaper by a couple dollars a box allthough I do not use factory I still scan the price tags from time to time.

You read more into it,than Sky offered.

His take was that Joe Average,goes shopping for the least expensive offering in each chambering. I concur. My position was,that in that example,the Core-Lokts in each were the one likely to be purchased. Further,that my position isthat they are on the same page in relative"quality"/integrity/frangibility.

For the Gent that is more concerned with his rifle,than feeding it whatever happens to be on Sale,there are equally good offerings for both.

Certainly the '06 has a wider assortment of flavors and by more Manufacturers. But it isn't difficult to obtain quality ammo,for the 7-08. Same goes the 308.

There was a time,when Factory 7-08 fodder was limited to a single Manufacturer and but two offerings. That era is gone and it now stands on more equal footing,than it once did...........

Johnny Ringo,

If cheap ammo is your sole criteria,you dropped the ball,when you bypassed the 308........

If one is cheaper than the other, it is NEVER the .308 (not as common)

Unlike where you may live, here surplus military ammunition is NOT sold locally.

Nope, didn't drop the ball. I got it just right, for where I live.

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 02-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 02-17-2002).]

Certainly if shooting on the cheap interested you,getting it shipped,would pose little trouble?

Paper won't ever know the difference..........