Here's some news from Ohio's 2006 deer gun season. What other states get so tough?

"ZANESVILLE, OH – Three men from northeast Ohio find themselves facing maximum fines, hunting privilege suspensions and jail time after being convicted of hunting on private property without permission of the landowner, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife.

State Wildlife Officer Mike Reed apprehended the three men on the opening day of deer-gun season, November 27. Officer Reed has received several complaints about these individuals engaging in illegal activity involving wildlife over the past several years. The men appeared yesterday in the Muskingum County Court before Judge Eric Martin.

Mark Rice, 39, of Garfield Heights pled no contest to three charges, including hunting without permission, not meeting the blaze orange requirements for deer-gun season, and aiding a juvenile in hunting without permission. Rice was fined $1500, his hunting privileges suspended for five years, his firearm as well as the juvenile’s firearm were ordered forfeited and he was ordered to serve 30 days in jail.

John Murphy, 29, of Newburgh pled no contest to one charge of hunting without permission. Murphy was fined $500, his firearm ordered forfeited, and hunting privileges suspended for five years.

Randy Parker, 38, of Parma pled no contest to the charge of aiding in hunting without permission. Parker was fined $500, hunting privileges suspended for five years and ordered to serve 10 days jail time.

The landowner’s written permission is required for hunting and trapping on private land, regardless of whether the land is posted.

The maximum penalty for hunting without written permission of the landowner for a first offense is a $500 fine and 60 days in jail. The maximum penalty for a second offense is a $750 fine and 90 days in jail.

A person must carry written permission at all times while engaging in hunting or trapping on private land. The written permission must be exhibited upon request to a state wildlife officer, sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, other law enforcement officer, owner of the land, or the landowner’s authorized agent."

Glad to here it, nothing I hate more than someone hunting on my land without permission.

Colorado laws can be tough, too. An owner does not have to post his land and sometimes telling the difference between private and public land can be tough. My ex-father-in-law in Michigan had trespassing hunters on his land all the time. After having a prime angus bull killed, he had to get tough and prosecute trespassers. Oh, and he did grant permission to hunt to those who requested it prior to the season opening.

I am all for prosecuting people for hunting on posted land without permission. In WV I hunt mostly on National Forest land. There are little tracts of private mixed in all over the place. If the land is not posted or fenced, there is no way to tell where one ends and the other begins without a topo map.

I also hunt small tracts of private (5-10 acres) with permission. The problem is the land is steep and monotonous. The landowner has no idea exactly where his land runs. It's pretty common for hunting areas to overlap as other hunters have no idea where there permission ends either. If someone is serious about reducing trespassing, it is not that hard to take a few hours and post some signs.

In WV tracking a bleeding deer across posted ground is also illegal. If you are on a track and come to a posted sign hopefully the sign will have a number to call the landowner. I actually tracked one deer across onto someone's unposted land. I met the landowner coming out of the woods, he was very nice and offered to help drag if I needed it.

Most trespassing on unposted land is accidental. All trespassing on posted land in intentional.

quote:

Originally posted by splinterhands:
I am all for prosecuting people for hunting on posted land without permission. In WV I hunt mostly on National Forest land. There are little tracts of private mixed in all over the place. If the land is not posted or fenced, there is no way to tell where one ends and the other begins without a topo map.

I also hunt small tracts of private (5-10 acres) with permission. The problem is the land is steep and monotonous. The landowner has no idea exactly where his land runs. It's pretty common for hunting areas to overlap as other hunters have no idea where there permission ends either. If someone is serious about reducing trespassing, it is not that hard to take a few hours and post some signs.

In WV tracking a bleeding deer across posted ground is also illegal. If you are on a track and come to a posted sign hopefully the sign will have a number to call the landowner. I actually tracked one deer across onto someone's unposted land. I met the landowner coming out of the woods, he was very nice and offered to help drag if I needed it.

Most trespassing on unposted land is accidental. All trespassing on posted land in intentional.

It is prosecuting the accidental trespassing that I have a problem with. I can't tell you the number of times someone has tried to kick me off of public land or land I have had premission to be on. If the boundary is clearly marked, there is no question.

My land is heavily posted and I still had guys trying to hunt it. I even had a guy tell another land owner that I gave him permission to hunt my land. Guess what, the other land owner knew I did not give anyone permission to hunt my land. Also in West Virginia you must have written permission from the land owner on you at all times if you are hunting there land.

Sorry I don't feel bad for anyone prosecuting anyone for trespassing. We as hunters need to know our boundaries. If you don't shame on you. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Nothing new about trespassers, i've had them attempt to run me off my own land three times in my life. Talk about something that will piss you off! Wyoming works the best, the tag has to be signed by the landowner, if an agent checks your license, you're on private land, no signature it's an automatic fine, landowner doesn't have to prosecute. It also has to be signed when a kill is made on private land.

In Texas being on land without permission is a class B misdemeanor, and if you have a weapon, as in hunting, it ups to a class A misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to 2 years in county jail. The days of hunting without permission are pretty much over for those who want to be legal; but for those who dont care the law doesnt matter anyway. We have some public land near here that some goof fenced part of it and now claims it is his. It it posted and cut off access to my old hunting area, but I just moved to another place to hunt.
Eterry

Congrats to the Ohio authorities! Wish some of that ideology would rub off onto the kleptomaniacs running things in Wyoming!!

The company I work for owns about 8500 acres here in Wyoming. Some of it is walk-in hunting and/or fishing, some is access by permission only (mine) and some is off-limits totally. There are two ranches involved that are leased and access issues are coordinated with our lessee.

Of the big game seasons, deer season and deer hunters are by far and away the worst of all.

When it comes to hunting seasons, I cannot believe the entitlement people feel regarding access to private land. Folks don't read maps or refuse to and there's that clan that really doesn't give a damn. "If a road goes to it, through it or anywhere close, I can hunt it" is to be the attitude. I've confronted hunters by simply telling them they are on private land and have had the gamut of responses. Most simply leave but there are a__holes that reply, "So what are you gonna do about it?" This past season went over the top in my mind. I had two locks shot off. (Yes, we keep things under lock and key.) One flagrant idiot who shot a lock then drove all over hell like he owned the place. These types make me sick and I do what I can to get them apprehended. But even that is not easy! I've worked with WY Game & Fish, the local sheriffs deputy and it's always the same story; too late!!

I must say I admire what Ohio has done passing legislation to prosecute in that fashion. A slap on the wrist with a fine doesn't cut it.

Just my observations from the landowners side.

Obviously I am in the minority here, but there are a couple of things that bother me. First, the boundaries that may or not exist where even the landowner isn’t sure of the exact spot or may even fudge a bit. Next to get a ticket because you crosses an unmarked chunk of private land without a landowners signature. Now huge fines or even jail time. What is worse is some youngsters, just getting involved in the sport, being butchered by laws like this. I can’t see a easier way to scare these kids away from the sport, and possibly one day join the anti-hunting ranks.

I said before that it is the hunters that are slowly destroying the appeal of the sport. However, I have no good solution to this problem. A landowner certainly has the right to determine who can use their land, which happens to include less of Joe public hunter every year. With vandalism that occasionally occurs, I can’t say I blame them.

However, we are in a dying sport and stuff like this will only accelerate it.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:
Obviously I am in the minority here, but there are a couple of things that bother me. First, the boundaries that may or not exist where even the landowner isn’t sure of the exact spot or may even fudge a bit. Next to get a ticket because you crosses an unmarked chunk of private land without a landowners signature. Now huge fines or even jail time. What is worse is some youngsters, just getting involved in the sport, being butchered by laws like this. I can’t see a easier way to scare these kids away from the sport, and possibly one day join the anti-hunting ranks.

I said before that it is the hunters that are slowly destroying the appeal of the sport. However, I have no good solution to this problem. A landowner certainly has the right to determine who can use their land, which happens to include less of Joe public hunter every year. With vandalism that occasionally occurs, I can’t say I blame them.

However, we are in a dying sport and stuff like this will only accelerate it.

Very well said!! My only real point is that communicating with and being polite with neighboring landowners is a much more viable option than seeing who can get who in the most trouble. Let me stress, again, I am in no way defending people that deliberately trespass. People shooting locks off, crossing posted signs, vandalizing and so on are criminals, no two ways about it.

You guys out West (by West I mean anywhere after VT) are harsh. I guess I don't understand what land owners face out there but I think policies like this are going to create an atmosphere like Europe where only the wealthy or connected can hunt any more. Here in NH ANY land that is not posted can be hunted. This law goes back hundreds of years and was put in place so that those who were not wealthy landowners could still feed their families. It's a policy that I'm quite proud of and I don't really understand the mentality of most of you that have posted on this subject. Can someone pleas explain the hostility?

Slug, I do agree with you to some extent that private land should be posted so that an ethical hunter knows where he or she can hunt. Here in Colorado, the law NOT requiring posting was passed by a legislature almost 100yrs ago, then controlled by the ranchers and mining interests. Trying to change that law has been extremely difficult. In the "peoples republics of denver and boulder," with few hunters, the politicos won't touch it. And those areas that are rural...well.

I guess I would be sympathetic if boundaries were uncertain. I have in the past and currently owned fairly large pieces of property. When in Pennsylvania, there were clear boundaries with roads and fence lines with signs and still some jerks felt the need to come on my property without permission. For several that were smart enough to ask, I gave permission. Unfortunately Pennsylvania's laws are more favorable to the trespasser than Ohio's.

My current property also has well demarcated boundaries with fence lines. If I see anyone hunting on my property without permission, I will not bother to confront them. I will just call the game warden or sheriff.

As far as my "hostility" to tresspassers is concerned, how happy would someone be if I came into their yard and posted political signs or perhaps took out a couple of crows with a BB gun. The homeowner might be a bit hostile. It just happens that I have a bigger yard and don't want it violated either.

Wherever it is, land belongs to someone and it's a hunter's responsibility to get permission from the one it belongs to.

Laws like this will be the death of hunting. The punishment is draconian.

I agree with the poster that said that hunting in the east is fast becoming a question of "haves" vs. "have nots". If you don't have enough money to buy your own piece of land, then your access is increasingly being relegated to the overcrowded public lands as people with land figure "I've got mine." I agree, we as hunters need permission if we go onto someone's land, for any reason. No question about that. But I think that in fairness, we should recognize that access is dwindling as more and more people, even hunters, seek to keep everyone but themselves off the land.

Just a different perspective from someone not wealthy enough to say "I've got mine." When I was younger, people weren't quite so adamant about their exclusive access.

Well, I saved my money to buy a piece of land in West Virginia. My wife and I worked our asses off to get where we were able to afford our land. I don't feel bad for anyone that use to hunt the area that is now a development, they had the opportunity to buy the land as I did. Sorry they never had the opportunity to save and work there asses off to afford to buy any land for themselves. It is a matter of priorities. Some times it is there own family that sells the land.

I have for years leased land in Delaware and Maryland to hunt on, I paid for my access, if not I worked on the farm or piece of land for the privilege to hunt there and gain access.

But for the guys that think, just because I used to hunt that land for years before it was sold off to others, just does not entitle them to hunt it at will. Sorry I don't feel bad for the guy that can't afford it.

As for people that own land killing the sport of hunting, you are all dead wrong. There is a lot of public land out there to hunt on, it is more that some hunter's are getting to lazy to go out and find it or work for it. Sounds harsh and cold but I don't feel bad for the have not's as someone here has put it.

It is no different than having someone walk into you house and sitting down to watch your big screen TV, because they can't afford one. Sorry if I disagree with some of you, but sympathy fall between shit and syphilis in the dictionary and I don't have time for either.

I'm glad you were able to get yours.

Daks, I was living pay check to pay check myself for many many years. I also had 3 children to support. But I made a move to better myself and be able to afford a better life for myself and family. My children are grown and now it is my turn. I sacrificed without and hunted where I could, now I am able to afford my own place, I think I will keep it for myself and friends.

The guys trying to hunt my land in West Virginia have lived there, there whole lives and have burned so many bridges, no one wants them hunting there land. Even the people that have had land handed down to them don't want them. These guys, if given permission will bring there friends and family to hunt once they get there foot in the door, so why should I feel obligated to let them hunt MY land?

Sorry if you can't afford you own land to hunt, everyone knows going into it that they need a place to hunt. So why should it be a big surprise if you can't find a place and have to share state hunting land.

Remember I don't owe anyone anything, I worked for what I have, and again to bad if you think I am not being sympathetic to less fortunate hunters. I was in there shoes once myself.

We all have different opinions on this and nothing either side says is going to change that. As for the land owners hurting the hunting sport, I doubt that, it is the guys breaking the law that hurt our sport more.

Why should anyone have to post their land?? That policy is like saying if the doors aren't locked, it is okay to walk into someone's house and help yourself to the fridge.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Why should anyone have to post their land?? That policy is like saying if the doors aren't locked, it is okay to walk into someone's house and help yourself to the fridge.

Thank you AnotherAZWriter. Another person with his head screwed on right.

A couple of references to the west have come up and in Washington we are running into sort of the same thing but different. (Ok ??) What I mean is we hunt a lot on State land and alot on Weyerhaeuser land. What Weyrehaeuser has started doing in the past recent years is not marking boundries of different units. Then if you get caught in the wrong unit then big fines, confiscated guns and even confiscated vehicles are on the menu. A couple of guys got caught in a special unit this year and put down a good bull. Result was both got $4500.00 fines, guns confiscated and one guy lost his truck. It's tough in the mountains knowing exactly where the boundries are. It's getting tougher everywhere to hunt. In Washington it is illegal to be out of your rig with your rifle if in the wrong unit. That one is tough on the guy that keeps his gun with him everywhere he goes.

I'm not saying it's ok to hunt someones unposted land. What I'm saying is that is should be a MUCH larger fine, jailtime, ect for deliberately trespassing.

A good example of what I'm trying to say is a huge lot of land in Giles County. It is owned by Celanese Co, a huge corporation. For years the unofficial policy was they granted no one permission to hunt. They also would not prosecute or post the land. Everyone used the land. The company knew it, the gamewardens knew it and hunters knew it. The land was open to use, but they did not want to grant permission, probably for legal reasons.

A couple years ago, someone shot a house from Celanese land. The area was immediately closed, surveyed and posted.

I guess I'm lucky that I've never had trouble finding places to hunt, but they are getting harder.

quote:

Can someone pleas explain the hostility?

Here's what Pennsylvania offers hunters, both resident and non-resident: State Game Lands, which currently contains about 300 separate tracts comprising a total of more than 1.4 million acres.
If you desire to hunt private land, all you have to do is ask permission. And as a farmer and landowner, that's where the rub comes in. Lots of folks are just too lazy or contrary to bother to ask. They think the price they paid to the state game commision for a hunting license is also the admission ticket to hunt anywhere they please. When informed that they are trespassing on private property, they become contentious or outright liars, claiming they just didn't know where to ask.

The problem is getting worse as new residents immigrate from New York and New Jersey with deep pockets buying up farmland for their single-family homes. There are literally hundreds of 'bedroom' communities springing up all over this region. People who commute to high paying jobs in their home state who desire to live and recreate in my neck of the woods.
And with them they bring their big city attitude, like a few of the previous posters on this thread. I hope the PA legislature approves needed money so our game commision, like Ohio, enacts a "get tough" policy on these slob hunters and other trespassers. Believe me, it's not private land owners, invoking their property rights that will be the downfall of hunting. Those law-breakers in Ohio got what they deserved. I just wish their story got out to more people than the ones who frequent this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Can someone pleas explain the hostility?

People who commute to high paying jobs in their home state who desire to live and recreate in my neck of the woods.
And with them they bring their big city attitude, like a few of the previous posters on this thread. .

Care to share who you are referring to? If it was me, I am not from a big city and as far as I know this is the United States and we are free to move any where within it. I am from a Military family and have served 10 years myself, I have moved to so may different States I never really had a steady place I could call home until I moved to Delaware. But I feel I can go anywhere I please. I am not asking for hand outs and I am more than will to always pay my way. Sure I bought 20 aches in West Virginia, I plain on retiring there in about 10 years.

IIRC, montana has one of the most simple policies when it comes to hunting on private land. If it is posted, permission in required. If it is not posted, permission is not required.....what I really thought made sense was the posting requirements. Every fifth(i think) fence post needed to be spray painted a bright color(flor green/yellow/orange/etc). Cheap and easy for the land owner, easy for the hunter. A farmer/rancher can buy a can or two of paint every few years, rife the perimeter on a 4 wheeler or horse and be good to go.

We asked permission to just about every place we hunted and were never turned down(pheasant hunting, deer hunting was different!)...most land owners gave you a little slip that had your name, number of hunters, lic plate # and days you were hunting.

I know some people say that posting should not be required. The problem with that is sometimes you are unsure of what land you are on...colorado's laws on that are pretty draconian and it would be easy to make a mistake. In a perfect world we would all hunt only land we had permission and we would all know those boarders....in this world posted land keeps honest people honest and helps catch the slobs who are hunting wherever they please.

My two cents..

-phil

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Well, I saved my money to buy a piece of land in West Virginia. My wife and I worked our asses off to get where we were able to afford our land. I don't feel bad for anyone that use to hunt the area that is now a development, they had the opportunity to buy the land as I did. Sorry they never had the opportunity to save and work there asses off to afford to buy any land for themselves. It is a matter of priorities. Some times it is there own family that sells the land.

But for the guys that think, just because I used to hunt that land for years before it was sold off to others, just does not entitle them to hunt it at will. Sorry I don't feel bad for the guy that can't afford it.

As for people that own land killing the sport of hunting, you are all dead wrong. There is a lot of public land out there to hunt on, it is more that some hunter's are getting to lazy to go out and find it or work for it. Sounds harsh and cold but I don't feel bad for the have not's as someone here has put it.

Couldn't have said it any better!I did sane as you,and also in WV.Now people around me post there land,and still think they should be able to hunt on mine.
Its not landowners killing hunting,its the lazy slob hunters,road hunters,and hunters actions in general.I even saw a guy riding up and down road on a fourwheeler,cause everyone around here knows him and won't allow him to hunt,so he stops shoots and rides off.I get off my stand and go down just to see what he shot at,there lays a small doe,fawn really,in middle of buck season,this was when you could only shoot bucks.Just shot it and left it to waste.Thats just one of many things I've see myself over the years.

quote:

As for people that own land killing the sport of hunting, you are all dead wrong. There is a lot of public land out there to hunt on, it is more that some hunter's are getting to lazy to go out and find it or work for it. Sounds harsh and cold but I don't feel bad for the have not's as someone here has put it.

I strongly disagree with you. The future of any sport depends on youngsters getting involved in the sport. Look at what would scare them off. One item is lack of places to hunt. Yes there is public land out there, but how much of it can be hunted for a couple of hours after school. There may be overly crowded places close, but who wants to hunt in a crowd (Isn't that why you bought your land)? Looking further down the road, the Republicans have made several attempts to sell our public lands to the highest bidder (I am a Republican, but not on this issue). The problem will only get worse in the future.

Another reason would be to make the sport too expensive. When I was that age, I was trying to scrape enough money to buy shells. A increase in license or trespass fees will send them away.

A third would be to make the sport not worth the hassle. Trying to find a landowner to get a signature (I know a couple of guys who live 50 plus miles away from their land), trying to figure out maps, huge fines and even jail time if they are wrong, why would a kid bother?

Their are other problems not related to this issue, but that may be the subject of another thread.

Don't get me wrong, like splinterhands, I have no sympathy for deliberate trespassing on posted land, and you have every right to say who is allowed to go on your land, even if that means that I can't. I still believe that we as hunters can be our own worst enemy. There is a good article on this subject at:
Number and Type of Hunters

Reading you posts, you did make me think of an interesting ethics question. If you were kicked off of your favorite hunting area in a dispute such as these, and later witnessed this property being vandalized, would you report it? Nothing against you personally (I actually think you have made some excellent posts for a good discussion), but I would forget what I saw faster than Clinton after a intern BJ.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:

quote:

As for people that own land killing the sport of hunting, you are all dead wrong. There is a lot of public land out there to hunt on, it is more that some hunter's are getting to lazy to go out and find it or work for it. Sounds harsh and cold but I don't feel bad for the have not's as someone here has put it.

I strongly disagree with you. The future of any sport depends on youngsters getting involved in the sport. Look at what would scare them off. One item is lack of places to hunt. Yes there is public land out there, but how much of it can be hunted for a couple of hours after school. There may be overly crowded places close, but who wants to hunt in a crowd (Isn't that why you bought your land)? Looking further down the road, the Republicans have made several attempts to sell our public lands to the highest bidder (I am a Republican, but not on this issue). The problem will only get worse in the future.

Another reason would be to make the sport too expensive. When I was that age, I was trying to scrape enough money to buy shells. A increase in license or trespass fees will send them away.

A third would be to make the sport not worth the hassle. Trying to find a landowner to get a signature (I know a couple of guys who live 50 plus miles away from their land), trying to figure out maps, huge fines and even jail time if they are wrong, why would a kid bother?

Their are other problems not related to this issue, but that may be the subject of another thread.

Don't get me wrong, like splinterhands, I have no sympathy for deliberate trespassing on posted land, and you have every right to say who is allowed to go on your land, even if that means that I can't. I still believe that we as hunters can be our own worst enemy. There is a good article on this subject at:
Number and Type of Hunters

Reading you posts, you did make me think of an interesting ethics question. If you were kicked off of your favorite hunting area in a dispute such as these, and later witnessed this property being vandalized, would you report it? Nothing against you personally (I actually think you have made some excellent posts for a good discussion), but I would forget what I saw faster than Clinton after a intern BJ.

OldFart, I bought my land for dual porpoises. I plan to retire there in about 8 to 10 years. I am planning to build a log home in about a year. Sure I wanted a place of my own to hunt. I have paid for lease after lease to have the privilege to hunt. I am very fortunate to have a very good friend that allows me to hunt his land here in Delaware. I hunted State land for many years prior to getting invited to hunt on his land. He knows he is welcome to hunt my land in West Virginia also.

It is not the youngsters that I have a problem with on my land in West Virginia, it is the older guys that come out there time after time asking permission and after being told several times NO, and I even worse I send them a letter stating they DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION, that the still try to hunt my land as well as my neighbors land. If someone came up to me and wanted to take a youngster out on a hunt I may consider it on a ask before you show up bases, but that is not the case here.

As far as having to drive 50 miles just to get permission, I have driven further just to help the farmer or land owner or asked permission. If you don't want to take the time as an adult to find out where the property lines are or the proper person to ask for permission, you don't deserve to hunt there. That is plain lazy.

And to address your other remark, a kid should not be out hunting without a parent, they should not be wondering the woods looking for game, it is a accident waiting to happen. Again it go's back to an adult showing the young hunter the proper way to gain access to private prosperity and supervise the youngster as to the proper way to hunt.

And lastly, where my land is located, I am about 5 1/2 miles from a main road, about 9 miles from the nearest town. If someone is being destructive to my land, no one is going to see it, unless one of the permanent resident that lives in our development sees them. But no one can stop that and that is another reason our land is posted. Our Development is 260 Acers sub-divided into 12 different 20 to 22 Acer lots on a mountain ridge.

What really sucks about the whole having to post your land bit is, I have to drive up to my land and see a NO Hunting Sign every 25 feet. I can't enjoy the beauty of the land because people are not considerate of other peoples property.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:
[QUOTE]As for people that own land killing the sport of hunting, you are all dead wrong. There is a lot of public land out there to hunt on, it is more that some hunter's are getting to lazy to go out and find it or work for it. Sounds harsh and cold but I don't feel bad for the have not's as someone here has put it.

I strongly disagree with you. The future of any sport depends on youngsters getting involved in the sport.
There is a good article on this subject at:
Number and Type of Hunters
QUOTE]



I think a big decline in young hunter is not just land or a place to hunt problem. It is that the younger generation is a faster pace than most of us older guys are use to. Kids want instant gratification. Sitting in the wood is boring to them, they don't enjoy the outdoors like us older guys do. I know first hand. I have a son 18 years old. He hunted when he was younger and enjoyed it, he got uninterested in it, why? Because it was boring just sitting in the woods, he got tired walking around scouting the wood for the up coming deer hunt. He wanted to kill something but wanted to do it right away. I spent many hours trying to instill the proper teachings of hunting but, young girls, video games, cars and friend were a lot more exciting than hunting. So don't tell me land access is the decline in young hunters, it is all the other fun stuff out there.

"Trying to find a landowner to get a signature (I know a couple of guys who live 50 plus miles away from their land), trying to figure out maps, huge fines and even jail time if they are wrong, why would a kid bother?"

The kid should have a responsible adult helping them in their hunting endeavor and not just wandering around by themselves on private land with a gun hunting. I don't think I want unsupervised kids I don't know on my land.

"Reading you posts, you did make me think of an interesting ethics question. If you were kicked off of your favorite hunting area in a dispute such as these, and later witnessed this property being vandalized, would you report it? Nothing against you personally (I actually think you have made some excellent posts for a good discussion), but I would forget what I saw faster than Clinton after a intern BJ."

There are plenty of vandals of various degrees out there. The responsible people (maybe not you) are going to report crime when they see it because they know that the next crime victim could be them. I would much rather have some "draconian" laws on my side than rely on the charity of others to stop vandalism on my property. Vandals are pretty sneaky anyway and usually aren't caught by either responsible or irresponsible people.

"Daks, I was living pay check to pay check myself for many many years. I also had 3 children to support. But I made a move to better myself and be able to afford a better life for myself and family. My children are grown and now it is my turn."

I have no problem with that. Some of us aren't at that point in our lives, however, including not owning our own place, let alone a place to indulge our hobbies. I also have zero problem with posting. It is the "I've got mine, the rest of you are lazy shiftless bums if you ain't got yours" attitude I take exception to. It pretty much says that if you can do it, anyone can. That's not so. All of us have different strengths and circumstances.

When I was younger, land wasn't nearly as inaccessible as it is today. People were willing to share. Now, the "I've got mine" attitude that you express is closing off more and more private land to hunters, forcing people onto the public land. I'm happy you've got yours. You might want to remember what it was like when you didn't. Not everyone is able to replicate your experience.

Draconian:

1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him
2 : CRUEL; also : SEVERE <draconian littering fines>

A guy gives up his gun, his hunting privileges for five years, pays a big fine and spends time in jail for being where he wasn't supposed to be?

Sounds draconian to me. Why not just execute them on the spot?

Draco punished even trivial offenses with death. Solon repealed every statute except for the ones regarding murder and replaced them with a set a laws much more suited to the crimes they punished.

You propose a false dichotomy, Grumulkin. It is not a case of either relying on the charity of your neighbors vs. adopting draconian punishments. There is a third choice - having the punishment fit the crime.

quote:

Originally posted by Daks:
"Daks, I was living pay check to pay check myself for many many years. I also had 3 children to support. But I made a move to better myself and be able to afford a better life for myself and family. My children are grown and now it is my turn."

I have no problem with that. Some of us aren't at that point in our lives, however, including not owning our own place, let alone a place to indulge our hobbies. I also have zero problem with posting. It is the "I've got mine, the rest of you are lazy shiftless bums if you ain't got yours" attitude I take exception to. It pretty much says that if you can do it, anyone can. That's not so. All of us have different strengths and circumstances.

When I was younger, land wasn't nearly as inaccessible as it is today. People were willing to share. Now, the "I've got mine" attitude that you express is closing off more and more private land to hunters, forcing people onto the public land. I'm happy you've got yours. You might want to remember what it was like when you didn't. Not everyone is able to replicate your experience.

That still does not entitle anyone to trespass, I DID NOT TRESPASS, so I do remember how it was. Been there done that. I have hunted State land and did well. Life is full of choices and sometimes people need to make sacrifices for what they want.

Please enlighten me as to why I should open my little piece of land up for everyone to use. So my wife and I open ourselves up to law suites because a careless hunter gets hurt on my land that I gave permission to and sue's us, or so when my wife and are a walking around our land and a shot rings out and one of use gets hit by a stray bullet because the hunter is shooting at game or what he thought was game. I have 2 Fawn Great Dane's and at a distance they might look like a deer to a inexperienced hunter and I don't want one of my dogs killed just because you and bubba want to hunt my land.
The more you try to convince me the more I despise your attitude. Your have and have not's is a crock of shit.

Perhaps you could show me where in any post I've made where I've said I support trespassing? As a matter of fact in the post you quote, I said I have nothing against posting land.

I also haven't said anything about you opening your land or that anyone who owns land has any obligation to do likewise. It's your land, do as you please. My issue with you is your attitude that anyone who hasn't "got his" is a lazy bum. Seems like the first thing many people do as they move up the ladder is despise the folks that are below them.

Try not to get so excited, Redhawk1. It isn't worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by Daks:
Perhaps you could show me where in any post I've made where I've said I support trespassing? As a matter of fact in the post you quote, I said I have nothing against posting land.

I also haven't said anything about you opening your land or that anyone who owns land has any obligation to do likewise. It's your land, do as you please. My issue with you is your attitude that anyone who hasn't "got his" is a lazy bum. Seems like the first thing many people do as they move up the ladder is despise the folks that are below them.

Try not to get so excited, Redhawk1. It isn't worth it.

My laze comment is directed to people to laze to get off there asses to look for boundary lines and signatures to get permission to hunt. But if you took my comment that I think you are laze because you don't have land to hunt on, you has misinterpreted my posts. My post about working my ass off was about just that. I worked for what I have and it should be my prerogative to do with my land as I see fit. Now I ask you, show me where I said anyone was a lazy bum because they don't own there own land to hunt.

Did I miss something or is this a thread on trespassing, gaining permission ect.???

"I worked for what I have and it should be my prerogative to do with my land as I see fit."

As I stated in the post you quote

"It's your land, do as you please."

This makes the third time I've agreed with that particular point.

As for implying that people who don't own land are lazy, you had this to say:

"Sorry they never had the opportunity to save and work there asses off to afford to buy any land for themselves."

Seems like you view those who don't buy their own land as lazy or at least, not as industrious as yourself.

I agree that someone not willing to do the legwork to get permission is probably lazy. No one has any right to think that they have a right to hunt on someone else's land. However, that being said, in my neck of the woods, it is getting a lot more difficult to do that. That's not an excuse, it is just a recognition of reality. Where I live, the land I might like to hunt could be rented to someone in the next county. As farms get bigger and bigger, that sort of arrangement is becoming more common. As getting permission becomes more difficult, that is an obstacle to access. In other words, it makes land more inaccessible.

Another difficulty in my area is the breakup of farms into development sites for people wanting to buy some land and put up a house. Before the selloff, a hunter had to get permission from one person, the farmer. Now, he needs to get permission from quite a few more people. In many cases, these people are not hunters and refuse access because they oppose hunting. This makes the available private land on which someone can hunt a much smaller piece of the pie. Sprawl of people out into the countryside also makes land progressively more inaccessible.

Even in the more remote areas of my state, though, there usually isn't too much trouble finding out where one person's property ends and another begins. If someone hunting where they aren't supposed to claims ignorance, I tend to think it is a willful ignorance or just plain fibbing. It isn't too hard to find out where one can hunt and where one cannot.

You have a responsibility to know where you are hunting and whose property you are on. If you dont know go find out or get the hell out.I dont buy any of this BS about not knowing.I work on a 20,000 acre ranch we have hundreds of signs and we are constantly finding trespassers because they think its so large that they wont get caught.When I was young and had to hunt with my father he would hunt on anyone and if caught play the dumb lost hunter BS,I hated hunting with him.w/regards

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Why should anyone have to post their land?? That policy is like saying if the doors aren't locked, it is okay to walk into someone's house and help yourself to the fridge.

You bout said it all, Az.

I have dealt with those who cared less. And, due to local politics, they got out of it. Walked away with their 2 fat-assed, spandex wearin b*tches and opened a beer in the parking lot. Laughed at me after court. Yep, they did.

I did, howsomever, jam a rifle barrel down in that pickup stakebody hole and bent the crap out of it, then threw it in the road and broke the stock. I got out of that, too, so local politics ain't all bad.

Damn, me, ya'll,,it was a pre-64 Winnie. .270 featherweight (lightweight? Aluminum buttplate).

When you get out of your truck or off of your 4 whlr,,,,know where you feet are. Don't guess.

Private property is one of the foundations of our Country (U.S.A.). Fought for and died for. Even today.

Pizz on those who disrespect that. But, I'd give kids a break on it. After they knew the consequences. Soft heart, yeah.

Still kicking my butt over what I did to that winnie.

Dungbeetle

Well I think everyone knows where I stand and I stick to my decision with no regrets. Now on to brighter subjects.

Originally posted by Redhawk1

quote:

My laze comment is directed to people to laze to get off there asses to look for boundary lines and signatures to get permission to hunt. But if you took my comment that I think you are laze because you don't have land to hunt on, you has misinterpreted my posts. My post about working my ass off was about just that. I worked for what I have and it should be my prerogative to do with my land as I see fit. Now I ask you, show me where I said anyone was a lazy bum because they don't own there own land to hunt.

Redhawk, looks like you need to take spelling lessons from gumboot458