There are some sick S.O.B.'s out there!


RAWLINS, Wyo. — The Wyoming Game and Fish Department has posted a $5,000 reward for information about the deaths of 10 antelope that were deliberately run over.

The department says five bucks, one doe and four fawns were hit Feb. 18 or 19 on a road between Baggs and Dixon just north of the Colorado line in south-central Wyoming.

Ron Iverson with Game and Fish tells the Rawlins Daily Times the carcasses were scattered over 190 yards on both edges of the road.

He says it appears somebody hit the antelope deliberately but investigators have no suspects.

You know that is the second time in a month I have seen that some sick person did this type of act, last time it was some stupid teenagers running down some deer. What a shame.

when Lora and I were coming back from the bear hunt in Idaho, we turned south at Wamsutter, and came across the 60 miles of dirt road to Baggs.

We actually had to stop to let pronghorn get out of our way, some of them were 15 to 16 inch bucks.

I hope that the low life that did this comes down with bone eating cancer and suffers a long slow death.

Pronghorns are such special animals, and getting the priveldge to hunt them or live close to them is special.

quote:

There are some sick S.O.B.'s out there!

Hello Kudu56

The same thing happened between Jeffery City and Muddy Gap around early part on Febuary. Seeing this sh#t makes you sick to your stomach.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
There are some sick S.O.B.'s out there!


RAWLINS, Wyo. — The Wyoming Game and Fish Department has posted a $5,000 reward for information about the deaths of 10 antelope that were deliberately run over.

The department says five bucks, one doe and four fawns were hit Feb. 18 or 19 on a road between Baggs and Dixon just north of the Colorado line in south-central Wyoming.

Ron Iverson with Game and Fish tells the Rawlins Daily Times the carcasses were scattered over 190 yards on both edges of the road.

He says it appears somebody hit the antelope deliberately but investigators have no suspects.

Damn Shame!

That might not have been on purpose...

Once upon a time, driving north from Salt Lake City I came upon 2 different locations where several deer had been hit, and killed on the Hi-Way...

Most likely an 18 wheeler hit them...

A while back a pickup hit 2 grown female pigs and nine little ones, on the road in front of my place....

A few months later a small whitetail Buck was killed there as well.
A few days ago a small female pig was killed there too....

Usually when you hit a 100 to 300lb animal it will mess up your vehicle... Unless you are driving an 18 wheeler...

It was most likely an accident...

This is one where I have to disagree somewhat.

I have seen stretches of highway, like 67 where it runs from San Angelo to I-10, thru places like Mertzon, where I once counted over 20 dead deer in less than 2 miles.

But I also remember seeing vehicles around various parts of the state, especially in areas where there was active oil and gas exploration or production, with front grills/bumpers that make the Ranch Hand bumpers look like tinker toy sets.

These things are made out of 4 inch pipe and 2 3/8 inch pipe and welded really good, and the folks driving those vehicles, would, especially if out partying after work, make a point of running over deer.

That was before hogs were so numerous here in Texas.

When Lora and I were driving thru the area north of Baggs back in September, I noticed a lot of oil/gas field traffic.

You are possibly correct in your estimation of what happened, but I feel that it probably was done on purpose, because the goats that we came upon would not get in any real hurry to get out of our way, and several times I had to almost stop to let them get off the road.

I have an uncle who once totaled his truck when he killed 7 cow elk. Accidents like this do happen and my uncle walked away from it.

Yes, accidents do happen, but hitting one cow elk at 350 pounds and heavier is a lot different than a 100 pound + or - speed goat.

I did not say that accidents don't happen, but from what it says in the OP:

quote:

the carcasses were scattered over 190 yards on both edges of the road.

There is no way that was accidental.

Unlikely, but not impossible One car, two herds of antelope about 150 yards apart? The car might have been speeding, hit one group, swerved thus pushing some animals to the left side of the highway, and then recovered control of the vehicle just in time to hit the second herd? Wounded animals then struggle and stumble a few yards after being hit to either side of the road and down the road. I am a naturally suspicious person, but that scenario does not sound all that far-fetched.

I personally think that anyone who swerves to avoid road crossing wildlife (or domestic) and thus voluntarily striking "something that will NOT move" (Culvert, guardrail utility pole) in preference to striking "something that WILL move" (wildlife or domestic livestock) is an idiot.

swerving often (usually) makes things worse
as does slamming on the brakes

I've personally (in my limited time in wyoming) have had Antelope appear to be trying to commit "suicide-by-vehicle", you turn to avoid a collision course and they turn to re-establish a collision course....

Loaded trucks neither turn nor stop well
so I can imagine a group of antelope running in front of a truck and literally zig-zagging in front of the vehicle.

I know from personal experience that they are certainly stupid enough.

Try avoiding a group of 20 antelope that want to run out in front of you and then run zig-zagging up the road... at 40mph when you were originally doing 75mpg.

how much distance do you think your temporary "formation" will cover while you try to dump speed.

And no evidence of skid marks proves absolutely NOTHING


If an antelope (or group of them) want to play that game in front of me I'm not going to try to hit them but I'm not going to endanger myself trying to avoid the stupid fuckers either.

Personally I've flat spotted four tires trying to avoid a herd of Whitetail does...
the cost of four new tires to replace the ones that were less than a month old cost me more than the impact damage would've...

Antelope are a lot like wild turkeys keen eyesight, rather nervous, but generally kinda stupid



I agree, it is probably NOT intentional.

You cannot ASSume that it was if you know much about the behavior of antelope when crossing roads.

A lot of this is done by big rigs. Cars would be totalled as a rule; big pickups without the heavy grill guards would too. Big rigs do it on a fairly regular basis as they keep a point system from rumors I hear. Accidents are one thing but far too many times it's evident it was deliberate.
LDK

Does it remind you of this at all?
I posted this a year or so ago and titled it "Wyoming Road Rage"
_________________________________________________
Posted 22 November 2009 17:21
Well yesterday my brother came across an ugly scene not far from Glenrock Wyoming. 16 Antelope lay dead and dying on and beside the road, victims of a hit and run with no skid marks to indicate anyone cared enough to even slow down. My brother dragged about 8 off the road that were in the way and the remainder were scattered by the roadside. The impact was hard enough to knock the horns off of the Bucks. My brother called the landowner and the Fish and Game officer for the area. There has been lots of Oil and Gas traffic on the road and they found a piece of a white freightliner fender laying there. The Officer said he had never seen anything like this before in a single accident and that he would find the truck and driver and have a "talk" with him. The trucks that drive that road move at a high rate of speed as you can imagine, just turns my stomach that he never even hit the brakes to avoid them or stopped and dragged them off the road or finished off the does and fawns that lay dying next to the road.

Back in 90 or 91 I was driving through eastern WA in an 18 wheeler on my way to Spokane. It was pretty late, and I'd been up for WAY too long (couple of days) already. There was another semi oncoming on a 2 lane hwy, and right before he got to me he hit his high beams, which totally blinded me.

I thought he was being a pr*ck, so I laid on the horn, right about then is when I hit the deer that were standing in the road. I'm not sure how many I hit, but I know it was more than one. The other semi hit a few too. There were parts of deer flying all over the place.

I hit my brakes and stopped in the road, as there was no shoulder at all, the other driver just kept driving. I could see for miles and miles in both directions and there was not another vehicle for at least 20 miles.

When I walked back to the scene, there was blood and gore everywhere. There was not one piece of any deer that was larger than melon sized, and that included the heads.

I was probably running 65 to 70 mph at the time, have no idea how fast the other semi was running, but he didn't even slow down.

My rig had absolutely no damage at all. Even the grill was intact. I had a pair of those stupid "deer whistles" on the hood too. Fat lot of good those things are.

If it had been a semi that hit those antelope, the only way to count the bodies would have been to count the hooves and divide by 4.

The only "funny" thing about it was when I was driving through Spokane later on that morning, I couldn't figure out why people were staring at my truck as I drove by. I mean everyone was...

Until I crawled out of it at a truckstop to get some coffee and looked back at my rig. It was absolutely covered in gore down both sides from the tires throwing it up the sides of the trailers (running a double set). I called my dispatch for a p.o. to get a truck wash, and he turned me down flat (they were around $100-150 at the time). He said to wash it next time I was in a company yard. I said, "OK man, it's your truck, but just so you know, there's blood and gore stuck in the grill, and up and down both sides of the rig. I'll drive it that way if you want, but people are staring at me when I go by.

I got the wash.

What is so hard for you folks to comprehend tyhat there are people out there that would purposely run over those animals just for the fun of it.

How loudly will each of you be protesting if they catch the folks that did this and find them guilty.

I can not prove it was not an accident, can any of you nay sayers prove that it was?

No.

Since the person that posted this lives in Wyoming, he might have a tad more knowledge about the behaviors of fellow Wyoming residents than any of us do.

My justifacation for saying it was a deliberate act, is the distance listed and the fact that animals were dead on booth sides of the road, not just along one side.

190 yards is a long way to to not be able to stop or slow down enough so that animals could get out of the way, and even then, the only animals that should be or would be being hit would only be on one side of the road.

It could have been an accident. I mean unless you see skid marks and burnouts all over the place from when they were chasing them around with the car/truck/lunar rover/whatever.

No real way to "know the intent" of the driver.

It is a darn shame though, don't get me wrong on that.

quote:

I mean unless you see skid marks.

That right there is why I maintain it was not an accident. In an accident there would be skidmarks.

Someone just trying to run over them would begoing just fast enough to hit them and go over them, and would not be trying to stop.

crazyhorse,

I'm not saying it CAN'T BE deliberate.

Sure it could be.

But I do know from personal experience that when you hit a deer sized animal with a semi at speed, it throws that animal pretty far, and it can easily be spread from one side of the road to the other.

In my case, there were at least 4 deer, and "it" was spread wall to wall, from one side of the road to the other.

I know you're upset by this, and I am too, I understand. Believe me when I tell you I was also very upset at the time it happened to me.

EDIT-- But also, I may have to reiterate, since I didn't specifically call it out to you,

THERE WERE NO SKID MARKS IN MY ACCIDENT EITHER

And I ASSURE YOU I did NOT try to hit them.

Oh, I DID have to throw away that pair of shorts I was wearing...

TALK ABOUT SKIDMARKS!!

A few years back I saw a 18 wheel hit a doz. cows on I-40 W of Amarillo it was 2 in the morning and I know the guy did not see them
there was nothing he could do except drive.

Another time I was in NM driving thru Indian land late at night came across were a herd of sheep walked on the highway i'm sure a 18 wheel drove right thru the bunch there was dead and crips all over there were so many I turned around and did a reroute.

I have been wrong before about stuff, and if I am wrong in this case, then I am wrong, no big deal.

I just wonder why folks seem to be quick in passing this off as an accident, when stuff like this happens all over the country and in many cases it is not accidental.

Any of us that have driven very much at night anywhere in rural areas have had our share of run ins with livestock and wildlife, I am not disputing that or doubting anyone's word.

But I am also a student of human nature, and there are plenty of sick individuals out here that would not think twice about running over a bunch of antelope or deer just for the fun of it.

My bets are that it was done deliberately and if they catch the folks they will be locals to the area, and there will not have been a speeding semi involved.

I'm not denigrating either side of this discussion, but the animals are dead, it seems extremely unlikely that what actually happened will ever be known. In the interim, all the discussion is the same as arguing over how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I mean unless you see skid marks.

That right there is why I maintain it was not an accident. In an accident there would be skidmarks.

Someone just trying to run over them would begoing just fast enough to hit them and go over them, and would not be trying to stop.

Why do you continue to show your driving ignorance and ASSume that unless there are skid marks that it must be deliberate?

In winter conditions or on dirt/gravel roads there WILL NOT be skid marks and even on dry pavement there won't be if those damned stupid animals run into the road at 45mph plus.

By the time you MIGHT think about hitting the brakes the impact is over.

And if I DID see them I'm not goinhg to THROW AWAY control of my vehicle to avoid hitting a few animals, and frankly I'm sick and tired of explaining reality to someone who wants to use inductive logic to explain an event that they didn't witness.

I have had enough vehicle deer collisions in my driving experience (14, Yes that's right, FOURTEEN) to have learned that doing anything other than lifting throttle and pretending the deer aren't there is a mistake, More often than not it's a horrible mistake to do ANYTHING else

More often than not if you swerve you only wind up swerving into a stationary object or where the deer tries to go...

like on that curve above.. in a truck at speed the only reason you'd hit the brakes is if you wanted to go off the curve and end up with the truck on it's side...

also the amazingly foolish presumption that the antelope were simply standing in the road when the collision happened...

I've actually had a deer turn directly TOWARDS me and I hit it nose on!

I submit that antelope will frequently try to race across the road thinking they are the fastest thng on land... and discover that they are wrong...

Their behavior easily explains ALL the similar crash scenes.

YOUR attitude is why most don't report those accidents.
Now, Consider YOUR apparrent attitude & obvious ignorance in the head of a wildlife officer...

I think you are way too quick to assume malice
when antelope are just about the stupidest land animal on the plains... aside of course for transient New Yorkers

I lost track of how many times I ran over grey squirrels trying to cross the road in front of me...
Squirrels I though has safely crossed and had reversed direction so I would hit them...

Ever seen a deer do the same thing? I have.

Seen antelope do it too.

Suicide-by-truck.

Kinda like a mass dolphin beaching.

AD

DeGroot, I took Gatogordos point, all this argueing does not prove anything one way or the other.

As for some of your BS that you are spewing out of your mouth about me, I have drove around the western part of trhe United states long enough to have driven up on both Pronghorns and white tails and even big horn sheep just standing in the middle of the road.

Not running across not walking down the side, but milling around in the middle of the pavement.

Everything I talk about is based on first hand experience, and I have dodged critters on pavement, both dry and wet and on dirt/gravel roads and did not hit them and did not lose control of my vehicle.

All you are showing with your diatribe is a complete lack of any real knowledge about little games locals in some areas will play just for the fun of it.

I am not claiming to be an authority on anything, I just ain't buying in to the concept that this was an accident.

As I said, if I am proven wrong, then so be it.

If however I am proven right you are going to look really stupid with your post and ASSumptions about what I know.

One last thing, fourteen year wonder I have been driving since I was 16, and I turned 60 this past September, don't try to tell me about driving, your a rookie.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
DeGroot, I took Gatogordos point, all this argueing does not prove anything one way or the other.

As for some of your BS that you are spewing out of your mouth about me, I have drove around the western part of trhe United states long enough to have driven up on both Pronghorns and white tails and even big horn sheep just standing in the middle of the road.

Not running across not walking down the side, but milling around in the middle of the pavement.

Everything I talk about is based on first hand experience, and I have dodged critters on pavement, both dry and wet and on dirt/gravel roads and did not hit them and did not lose control of my vehicle.

All you are showing with your diatribe is a complete lack of any real knowledge about little games locals in some areas will play just for the fun of it.

I am not claiming to be an authority on anything, I just ain't buying in to the concept that this was an accident.

As I said, if I am proven wrong, then so be it.

If however I am proven right you are going to look really stupid with your post and ASSumptions about what I know.

One last thing, fourteen year wonder I have been driving since I was 16, and I turned 60 this past September, don't try to tell me about driving, your a rookie.

I have fourteen "vehicle deer collisions" in my driving experience.

I have not been driving for fourteen years (I've had my current truck for longer than fourteen years...)

nor am I fourteen years old

I often wish I could be fourteen years younger... every morning when I try to
crawl out of bed...

It hasn't yet been fourteen years since I stopped thinking that old joke "If you are over forty and wake up and nothing hurts you think atleast for a moment that you might be dead"
wasn't funny any more... I just tried to get out of my chair and I still fail to find any humor in being over 40...



work on your reading comprehension and you'll likely avoid having your mouth gather as much foot.

AD

Okay you have more than fourteen years driving experience, and so do I and I have had ONE, count it ONE collision with a deer.

I have managed to avoid hitting any more simply by paying attention while driving.

In fact, the one I did hit decided it needed to go between the ass end of my pick up and the trailer I was pulling.

I am just maintaining, that from experience I have seen folks that would purposely run over deer and other animals.

Could this incident been an accident, yes.

Was it, I seriously doubt it.

As I said if I am wrong, I am wrong, nothing won nothing lost.

All of you folks claiming it is/was an accident and nothing more, what will you have to say if you are wrong.

Being wrong about stuff does not bother me, but some folks can not handle being wrong about anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Okay you have more than fourteen years driving experience, and so do I and I have had ONE, count it ONE collision with a deer.

I have managed to avoid hitting any more simply by paying attention while driving.

In fact, the one I did hit decided it needed to go between the ass end of my pick up and the trailer I was pulling.

I am just maintaining, that from experience I have seen folks that would purposely run over deer and other animals.

Could this incident been an accident, yes.

Was it, I seriously doubt it.

As I said if I am wrong, I am wrong, nothing won nothing lost.

All of you folks claiming it is/was an accident and nothing more, what will you have to say if you are wrong.

Being wrong about stuff does not bother me, but some folks can not handle being wrong about anything.

On generally straight, generally flat roads where you don't have a lot of places where terrain makes it impossible to see the places where deer can suddenly appear from...and "retinal flashes" are easier to spot you have the advantage in avoiding them

Slow down you say? I've been t-boned by a deer while doing all of 25mph...

Of course I doubt that you have quite so many whitetails as are often milling around here
in our less arid climate...

Like Custer at the Little Bighorn I live in a "target rich environment", it's been credibly suggested that Susquehana county PA has more deer than people...


I've been T-boned no less than four times by deer that ran into the SIDE of my pickup.
One managed to stick it's stupid head into the bracket for the swing away mirror and break it's silly neck. (and tear the mirror bracket out of the door costing me a new door!)

How do you avoid a deer that jumps up 8feet of embankment out of a creek bottom then up and over a guardrail and into the side of your vehicle?

Explain it to me please because I'd really like a rational explanation from someone that lives in an entirely different environment, on second thought don't waste my time making me read it....

I KNOW you know little about terrain or Deer in Pennsylvania and I doubt you know much more about road conditions in Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska or South Dakota

I've had another deer try to literally run through the bed (up and IN and back out, but not the way it expected...) of my truck... (I was doing 70-ish on I-81 at the time) that didn't end well for the deer either.

So Far all my "vehicle kills" have been whitetails and frankly the way those antelope behave they are far, FAR more stupid than whitetails... (leaving me wondering why they don't choke to death for lack of swallowing)


When you come around the corner or over a rise at 50mph and there's a herd of 12 or so whitetails just standing in the road what do?
you do?

People are frequently killed around here when for some amazingly stupid reason they choose to swerve and hit a tree (which won't move), or drive over an embankment and down a 50foot drop (often into a tree roof first!) to avoid hitting a deer (which will move)

One of the few things my Grandfather said the last time I spoke to him ~1969 was "Never hit something heavy that won't move when you can hit something lighter that will"

It was a commentary on one of my Mother's sisters swerving to avoid hitting a deer and running his shiny new Mercury into a tree and totaling the car...

It always seemed sound advice.

but then again he was more upset that his daughter was so stupid (His words: "Calling her as stupid as a box of rocks is an insult to the rocks") and wasting a car and nearly getting herself killed for no purpose...

Another thing he said was "aim for where the deer is, and hope he's not there when you arrive".... Which is kinda like the NASCAR theory on collision avoidance, it just sometimes doesn't work...

BTW I said there were fourteen collisions
I only counted the ones where I was driving my own vehicle there's another 11 or so where I was simply the passenger in a vehicle during a deer strike.

And that doesn't count the dozen or so collisions with Wild turkey, one of which tried to FLY through the drivers side of my windshield
in early December of '07

that one stupid turkey out of a flock of 30-ish that suddenly flew (not walked) across the road
was the one dumb bird that turned downwind in the middle of the road (along the road) and lost altitude... the rest of the flock turned the other way (towards me) and made a scary whooshing sound as they went overhead
one hit my two-way radio antenna and later made a nice meal, but it was expensive because it wrecked an $80 2meter/70cm dual-band antenna.

that was actually scarier than any deer collision I've ever had.. that turkey made it far enough inside that I had cuts on my hands from where the windshield reached them on the steering wheel. If I hadn't been wearing sunglasses I'd have been blinded because there were actually glass fragments imbedded in my shades...

but other than run into the ditch there really wasn't much I could do other than makes things far worse.... I chose not to.

no deer (or number of deer) is worth your vehicle or your life trying to avoid it.


Swerving to avoid a 150lb animal and driving into oncomming traffic like some woman did here a couple weeks ago (she ran head on into a semi that couldn't dodge her) killing herself and her passenger.. to avoid "Bambi"

there are several mysterious (FATAL) single vehicle accidents here each week...
Mysterious because there is no "black ice" or alcohol involvement... and no the person wasn't texting... they just suddenly braked and swerved and crashed, run into an embankment and your vehicle turns over, not wearing a seatbelt causes a broken neck when your head bounces off the roof...

what happened? you killed yourself by swerving to avoid a deer... dumbass!

Frankly I think any driver that swerves to avoid a deer should be clubbed to death
with a tire iron, because being brutally honest I consider them far more dangerous than the dumb animals...

I have a friend in NJ who hit a Black Bear
last memorial day weekend... much to the detriment of his new Saab 9-5.

Think you can see a Bear in your headlights?
Nope, Try again...

How about when the bear literally hops over a Jersey barrier into your lane?

Oh... I forget... You live in Texas... you need to drive to a state that actually HAS guardrails...
I can't recall seeing any K-rail in the entire state of texas (or for that matter Wyoming)... I'm sure it's there, but I'll bet there's more of it on the roads within a 20mile radius of where I sit typing this than there is in ALL of Texas and Wyoming combined

I'll be pleasantly suprised if you even know what Jersey barrier is...


that wasn't my friend's first totaled Saab 9-5 Aero either... Remember what I said about people swerving?

the other one he didn't hit a deer, but some idiot driving a full sized van swerved to avoid a deer and hit him. A Deer that never actually came over the guardrail and onto the road, much less into the center lane where the van was on I78 and shoved my friend in his car into, onto and over a guardrail... the car wasn't happy, my friend far less happy.

Could have been Aliens!!!!

quote:

Of course I doubt that you have quite so many whitetails as are often milling around here
in our less arid climate...

That shows how knowledgeable you are, there are more deer in Texas than in Pennsylvania.

I have no idea what your trying to prove, but we have people hitting deer in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metro-Mess and there are thousands of miles of highways all over Texas with all types of guard rails.

And no, I have no idea what a "Jersey Barrier" nor do I really care.

You want to turn this in to a Texas Bashing thread, you go right ahead, and let people see what kind of inteeligence you are working with.

Many places in Colorado/Wyoming/Texas and other states I have been in have lots of barriers especially along the interstates to keep animals off the road way.

You have some issue with Texas or Texans, and that is your problem, not mine.

I still maintain those antelope were run over on purpose and your diatribe ain't gonna change my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Of course I doubt that you have quite so many whitetails as are often milling around here
in our less arid climate...

That shows how knowledgeable you are, there are more deer in Texas than in Pennsylvania.

I have no idea what your trying to prove, but we have people hitting deer in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metro-Mess and there are thousands of miles of highways all over Texas with all types of guard rails.

And no, I have no idea what a "Jersey Barrier" nor do I really care.

You want to turn this in to a Texas Bashing thread, you go right ahead, and let people see what kind of inteeligence you are working with.

Many places in Colorado/Wyoming/Texas and other states I have been in have lots of barriers especially along the interstates to keep animals off the road way.

You have some issue with Texas or Texans, and that is your problem, not mine.

I still maintain those antelope were run over on purpose and your diatribe ain't gonna change my mind.

Good Lord! Thanks for tuning in to this episode of CSI-AR. Nobody knows except the driver that hit them, everything else is speculation.

If he intentionally hit em, I hope he screwed up his car and eventually gets caught.

If he didnt intentionally hit em, kudos for not getting yourself killed and keeping it between the fences as doing that is easier said than done.

For the record, I hit a bunch of sheep(domestic) one year on that exact same road but I was east of there up close to the divide. Came around a corner doing about 55 and they were all standing in the road. I wasnt about to risk my life for a bunch of range maggots so I didnt swerve or slam on the brakes, I let off the gas and rolled up the mutton. It sucked and I felt bad about it but there was nothing that could be done. Thank God for Ranch Hand bumpers

No one is trying to turn anything in to CSI.

I just don't see that incident with the pronghorn as an accident, and as you stated in your comments about the sheep, Thank God for a Ranch Hand bumper.

Well, antelope are not as heavily built as a range maggot, so I doubt anyone that hitting that many speed goats would notice any real damage, because I bet they were not driving a BMW.

It's good that you aren't turning things into CSI... because you woudn't make a good one anyway.

you investigate FACTS then reach conclusions based on those facts

Not as you are doing reaching a conclusion based on SOME of the facts then cherry picking the ones that fit your conclusion.

Are there more deer total in texas than in PA? I never said there weren't, but I'll concede that probably there are, it's a
much bigger state.

Are there more deer per acre? Not likely.
Also important is exactly WHICH acres you want to
compare...


I have no problem with Texas or Texans, but most of texas is "flat" when compared to Pennsylvania, and that distorts your perspective of avoiding them when obscured by terrain and thick vegetation.

I won't take offense at your remark that "You pay attention"
implying that I don't.... I know it is based on your erroneous viewpoint

Many places you couldn't see an elephant 40feet off the road even if you painted it blaze orange and mounted strobe lights on it, you'd sure as shit see it after it ran into the road, but by then there really ain't shit you are going to do about avoiding it.

Unfortunatly deer are both faster and more stupid than elephants But antelope are faster yet and I think I'm being generous in believing that they are only half as smart.

I believe that calling an antelope as dumb as a prickly pear
is an insult to all species of cacti, I doubt I could find three people in wyoming that'd be quick to disagree


AD

1. Texas is not flat, that is an erroneous assumption on your part.

2. Many places in Texas are heavily vegetated and roads are not all that straight, again more erroneous assumptions on your part.

3. You keep talking about deer running out in front of someone, the OP did not have one thing to do with deer, and 10 antelope did not run outt in front of that many vehicles at the same time in a 200 yard stretch of road.

4. Bottom line, I can not prove that it was not an accident, Just As You Can Not Prove That It Was Not Done Deliberately.

Just maybe this will refresh your memory about what the topic is, instead of telling everyone what a jerk I am and how stupid deer are.

quote:

RAWLINS, Wyo. — The Wyoming Game and Fish Department has posted a $5,000 reward for information about the deaths of 10 antelope that were deliberately run over.

What is there in that statement you do not understand. I seriously doubt, even as backwards as some folks seem to think westerners are, that a state game and fish dept. would be offering that kind of reward, if they evenm remotely thought this was an accident.

Some are deliberate.

Police use photos to track person accused of targeting animals with company pickup

Charges: Man ran over antelope
StoryDiscussionCharges: Man ran over antelope
Associated Press | Posted: Friday, December 14, 2007
.CHEYENNE - The photos showed mangled and bloody antelope carcasses, a man giving a thumbs-up next to the blood-splattered grille of a pickup truck, and "HA HA!!!" written over the image of a severed antelope head.

"We sped up. Most of the herd got out of the way," someone wrote in a posting on an off-roading Internet discussion board that included the grisly photos.

Now, authorities say they have arrested a 23-year-old gas field worker from Rock Springs after tracing the license plate of the truck in the photo.

"Anyone who has any regard for wildlife in this case would absolutely be shocked," said Scott Talbott, a wildlife specialist with the state Game and Fish Department.

The gas field worker, Jonathan Hefner, pleaded not guilty Wednesday to two counts of wanton destruction of big game, a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and a $10,000 fine for each count. A telephone message left for his attorney, Harold Moneyhun, was not immediately returned Thursday.

State authorities began investigating after receiving an anonymous tip on the state's "Stop Poaching" Web site.

Talbott said wildlife investigators recognized the area from the photos, dated Dec. 7, and had no trouble finding where the antelope were killed. DNA samples were taken from antelope parts found along the dirt road.

Talbott said investigators determined Hefner worked for National Oilwell Varco and was driving a company truck when he deliberately drove into the herd of about 20 antelope on a remote stretch near Farson.

A person who answered the phone at the National Oilwell Varco office in Rock Springs said Hefner no longer worked there. A message left for a company spokeswoman in Houston was not immediately returned.

The posting, dated Saturday, was taken down by Thursday. Copies of the posting were provided to The Associated Press by the governor's office.

In the posting, someone named "BigRed350x" described what happened: "So here we are cruising down the road, jon (bonbon) driving and me sleeping in the passenger seat when jon wakes me. … I look ahead and there's a herd of about 20 antelope just standing in the road. … we sped up. Most of the herd got out of the way, but two … dumber ones turned back for the greener grass on the other side of the road. LOL Well, they didn't make it."

Although Hefner was the only person arrested, Sweetwater County Attorney Brett Johnson said others may still be charged.

"Wyoming takes its big game seriously, and our office certainly takes this case seriously," Johnson said.

quote:

Does it remind you of this at all?
I posted this a year or so ago and titled it "Wyoming Road Rage"

Snellstrom, I sent those photos to the Casper paper, Douglas paper, and Glenrock paper, only Glenrock showed and interest and they could never get any info out of the G&F. I also sent emails and letters to the G&F but never got an answer either. Vac trucks and haul trucks do this quite often, still no excuse, but it happens. Most winters our highways and gravel roads look like rendering yards from road kill, but this winter it seems to be less frequent in the Basin, my only thought, fewer deer and antelope to run over.

For God'as sake, don't present all these accident believers with anything closely approaching the truth, it will be too big a shock for them.

Some folks just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that there are people that will do such things for the fun of it.

If I remember correctly it was not all that long ago that some kids up in the Texas Panhandle were caught after driving around a couple of wheat fields and shooting about a dozen head of antelope and just leaving them where they fell.

kudu56 as you said in the OP there are some sick people out here in the real world.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
1. Texas is not flat, that is an erroneous assumption on your part.

2. Many places in Texas are heavily vegetated and roads are not all that straight, again more erroneous assumptions on your part.

3. You keep talking about deer running out in front of someone, the OP did not have one thing to do with deer, and 10 antelope did not run outt in front of that many vehicles at the same time in a 200 yard stretch of road.

4. Bottom line, I can not prove that it was not an accident, Just As You Can Not Prove That It Was Not Done Deliberately.

Just maybe this will refresh your memory about what the topic is, instead of telling everyone what a jerk I am and how stupid deer are.

quote:

RAWLINS, Wyo. — The Wyoming Game and Fish Department has posted a $5,000 reward for information about the deaths of 10 antelope that were deliberately run over.

What is there in that statement you do not understand. I seriously doubt, even as backwards as some folks seem to think westerners are, that a state game and fish dept. would be offering that kind of reward, if they evenm remotely thought this was an accident.

I love the way you assume I'm making assumptions

FACT:
On average Texas is one hell of a lot flatter than pennsylvania.

I've been there and I'm not talking about "the breaks" or Big Bend National Park, I'm talking about the other 90-ish% of texas.

And no the roads aren't all straight, but on average....


And if you don't stop taking my comments out of context to support your arguement all you are gonna do is make yourself look more prejudgemental about an incident you did not withess and IF you were capable of being honest about what you actually know you'd admit you don't know enough to make any judgement.

I'm not saying it was certainly an accident, but I object to your stated belief that it most likely was.

I think it most likely wasn't because I've seen antelope "running stupid" into traffic

and I've personally seen that many whitetails run into traffic.

And I've seen MUCH larger mobs of antelope running across roads and such.

Not 5miles outside of Casper in fact...

It seems I know more about how mobs of antelope behave than you do because I've seen then "running stupid" a lot more than once.

the idea that 8-10 can be hit at once is not at all far fetched... I've seen that many whitetails hit and no there was no malicious intent.

I've personally hit five or six at once and really didn't have a damned bit of choice in the matter... Except I could have steered for the heavier part of the mob and hit six or seven.

And if after that a cop came along possessed of your attitude... bad things would happen...

frankly I get deeply irritated by people who habitually engage in inductive logic and I think you might be one of them. I'm not rushing to judgment on this but I see no evidence to the contrary.

I'm not insisting it's an accident, but you've toned down your rhetoric that it wasn't

you need to work a little harder on your "presumption of innocence", because frankly I believe it's people like you that collectively form lynch mobs

a Mind is like a book it's gotta be opened to work right.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
For God'as sake, don't present all these accident believers with anything closely approaching the truth, it will be too big a shock for them.

Some folks just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that there are people that will do such things for the fun of it.

You know, I can't honestly remember ever having any issues with you in the past over any subject.

But I have to say I really don't get you man. You are truly showing your ass here and coming off as a complete dickhead.

Maybe you're not always a dickhead, and maybe you are.

For crying out loud, for the last time, I never said there was no way it could be deliberate. I've only said it is quite possible that it was an accident, and even described an event that happened to me that was somewhat similar.

I am done with you.

You will be the third person on this forum that I have put on "IGNORE" going forward.

Life is just too short to put up with dickheads like you, especially on a forum that supports a recreational past time.

Funny, I don't remember you being the only person in the conversation.

Here is what you stated:

quote:

I'm not saying it CAN'T BE deliberate.

quote:

Sure it could be.

You made two whole posts on the subject, and at NO POINT did you say it was definitely an accident.

So you go ahead and get as mad as you please and call me all the names you want to.

You ain't the one I been argueing with.

As for de Groot.

About the only part of Texas that is "Flat" is the Panhandle and if you spend any time up there, you will find out it is not flat.

Your saying that I have toned down my rhetoric, what about this little piece of information:

quote:

I'm not insisting it's an accident, but you've toned down your rhetoric that it wasn't

I have not toned down my rhetoric one bit, and you have been insisting that it was an accident, and still are.

I do not care one bit how many critters of any kind that you or anyone else has run over as long as it was an accident.

Until proven wrong I maintain those antelope were not killed accidentally.

I have driven enough in the Texas Panhandle/New Mexico/Colorado and Wyoming and been around enough pronghorns to have had some close calls.

Had I have wanted to however, I was in a vehicle that would not have suffered any damage by running over 1 or 20, that was a personal choice.

There are folks running around out in the real world that would have run over them just for their idea of fun.

I have not asked anyone to agree with my opinion, I just stated what I think happened in this incident, and nothing you have said has changed my opinion.

It would seem to me that in most cases, someone hitting that many animals would need a police report to have the damage repaired under an insurance claim... unless you are uninsured or unlicensed or drunk or...

If it were a big rig, wouldn't it be likely that they would get on the radio or phone to make a courtesy call warning other truckers, etc. of the carcasses likely left in the roadway?...unless you didn't know you hit them or are over your log hours for the day or are in a hurry to get your load delivered or...

I find it strange that there is no more information, like "pieces of red fiberglass" or "a bumper from a dodge truck" was located at the scene. Makes me think there was more evidence discovered at the scene that they aren't speaking about yet.

Suspicious? - yes, but I don't imagine I'll be surprised by the explanation if they ever get to the bottom of this.