to heck with it. with all of the other stuff one has to carry in to the back country, it seems like maybe it would be a whole lot easier to carry a nice light winchester 30-30 for elk and maybe limit shots to 100 yards or less.

Anybody else ever tried it.

Blue

No, but it would work. Use good bullet.

blue, now listen here ol' chap, ifn' your gonna leave the gun to me and Howard, we don't want some POS 30-30. At least have a bit of pride when you come west hunting
With all the stuff ya gotta buy for this trip,I have a tip for ya, take that money, swing by Nebraska (Comstock Lodge) pay your fee, go to free range Pasture # 2 whip out your 30-30 and take home a 400+ Bull to hang on your office wall

A viable alternative to the .30-30 would be the Browning BLR in .308 Win., loaded with a Nosler 180 PT Gold MF, over about 42 grs.-RE-15. The weight is not much more and this will kill Moose and Elk stone dead with one shot to the chest; this is personal experience talking.

Actually, my ancient BLR, beat to hell and then re-finished shoots this into triangular groups of .75" @ 100 with a Leupy 2.5x Compact scope. It's easy to carry, too. Many of us used these in forestry work when I was young and the National Parks boffins here in Canada used to issue them in Grizzly country, might be a good alternative for you.

My great grandfather killed a slew of elk with a Model 1892 Winchester in .44-40, and my great-uncle hunted then before WWII with a Model 1894 Winchester in .30-30. All that's fine and dandy, but it doesn't mean that those are sufficient elk rigs for the here and now. I'd rather reconcile today's realities and hunting conditions to what works best today -- not what they squeeked by with a couple of generations ago because of improvidence or convenience.

I'll tell you this: Elk don't cooperate very well by following anyone's pre-conceptualized script. Just when you say to yourself, "I'll limit my shots to under 100 yards", you'll be presented with a 250 or 300 yd. opportunity, and no, you won't be happy with letting that bull walk away without firing a shot because he was out of range. The worst kind of hunting fool is the fool who fools himself, and who is willing to buy into skimpy compromises for the sake of a misguided theory. The result is always a rather bitter bargain that no one ends up very happy with.

An adequate rifle is not a burden to carry -- it's part of your responsibility as a hunter to pack one that works well under today's hunting conditions, and that means under less-than-ideal conditions if need be. Carry at least a scoped .270, .280, .30-06, or 7mm magnum -- and .300 or .338 magnum is better yet. I pack a .300 or .338 on every elk hunt these days and have for years, along with my pack, binoculars, and everything else, and I probably will until I quite hunting altogether.

After thirty years of hunting, I believe in using plenty of gun, premium bullets, and a quality scope. I refuse to hunt elk with cocktail-time cartridges and I never will....

AD

Allen, I'll second that post... every sentence weigh's a pound. It's all well and good to have one's feet up on the desk enjoying a peaceful May evening while contemplating elk hunting. It's another thing entirely to be at 8,000 feet on an elk mountain in November... that's a reality of a completely different sort where philosophical nuances become meaningless.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head by saying you limit yourself. If you can live with the limitations of the round, so be it. That being said, there are plenty of options in rounds other than the 30-30 that will expand your limitations at little sacrifice of ease of handling. Depending on where you hunt, with the 30-30 and your selfstated limitation, well, not much packing out is my prognostication.



I know a man that took his 30-30 with much the same selfimposed limits. A nice 6x6 at about 250 yards had him emptying his rifle, with no hits. He swore it was about 100 yards, till he walked it off.

Allen



I have been hunting as long as you have. Certainly not for the amount of species as you, and certainly not the world over like you. But I have graduated to the point where the hunt itself is more important to me that whether I take something or not. And its not like I need to go out and purchase a 30-30 as I still have the one my Dad gave me when I was 12 years old and it still shoots fine.



Jimmy,



I was going to leave you and Howard the brand new 7mm Mag Winchester Classic, not the 30-30. I don't have to buy much. Already have the Leica Binocs and all of the clothes and compass and stuff. Just need a pack and some good boots and maybe a rangefinder.



Jimmy, I can't go to Comstock. Already laid out the cash for and received my Montana License.



I handload and have 50 Winchester 150 gr Silvertips left. Might use those to fill the magazine tube, and use a Nosler Partition as the first shot.

Blue, where and how have you hunted elk? How many elk have you taken?

Brad



Did I ever say I hunted Elk? I don't think so. All I said was that I have been hunting for well over 30 years and have graduated to the point where I don't feel I need to shoot anything when I am out hunting.

What does how many elk I have taken have to do with anything? I know from reading that thousands upon thousands of elk have been taken with a 30-30. All I wanted to know was whether anyone here on AR had done it and what their experience had been.



Blue



(p.s. was in Boseman a couple of weeks ago. Wish I would have known you lived there. Would have taken you out for coffee to try and learn something from you about Montana Elk)

Just a short comment on something I think is important. Unless you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the Silvertips will impact at EXACTLY the same point of impact as the Nossies, this is not really a good idea. If, you need a second shot and you often do on Elk, you may not put the bullet where you want it if you use these two bullets at the same time.

Elk, IMO, are the toughest animals to put down with ANY rifle and you really cannot use too much gun or too good a bullet. Also, I have shot deer with Silvertips and I hate them with a passion, they are too soft and you MUST have penetration to drop Elk.

You have been kind enough to put some faith in my opinions on outdoor gear and I will say that I hope you trust me on this, as well. I do not know Allen or Brad personally, but, both of these guys impress me greatly with their knowledge and are giving very sound advice here.

If, you really want to kill an Elk, especially a trophy bull, quickly and cleanly, the calibers listed by Allen are the best place to start. I never use anything less than a .338-250 anymore, the "Sage of Salmon, ID." was right on, especially hunting here in B.C. where obnoxious bears try to swipe your kill.

Blue, I promise I'm not trying to beat-up on you! It's just that not all hunting is the same any more than all "flying" is the same... there's sunny afternoon pleasure soaring in a cub and there's transatlanitc tripping on a 747... I'd put elk hunting more in the latter category!

Kutenaymtboy



I certainly do respect your opinion, as well as Allen's and Brad's and most everyone that posts here. I can use any Rifle I want (.338 Mag, 30-06, .270, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Rem Mag, or 30-30). But as you are well aware, most of those guns are damn heavy, and again, I am going for the fun of the hunt. Heck, who knows, I might get lucky and nothing will show up for me to have to shoot. I would still have a wonderful time just being out there.



I am just looking for opinions on the 30-30, and seeing what others have experienced.



Blue

Well, I can certainly understand and respect that, but, I would only use Nosler PTs, under 100 yds and a broadside shot into the chest, tight behind the shoulder--no raking shots and I would avoid bone. Then, I would try to hit him two or three times, bang, bang, bang, in that same spot. I would also have a couple of loads with FMJ bullets to shoot him in the forehead when you get up on him as he may still be alive---and they will try to hook you, my brother damned near lost an eye that way.

It can be done, but, I wouldn't do it. I do agree on the reason for hunting, to me, the kill is the least important part of it. Mind you, a really HUGE Elk is the one trophy I do want, especially taken alone with backpack and rifle, the ultimate....

I have used the 30-30 on everything this side of elk. I would not have any problem using a 30-30 that I was comfortable with on Elk.

Folks here use 243 and 25-06. Currently I use a 30-06 almost exclusively.

Many people beleave that it is necessary to use a belted mag on everything. I don't.

The 30-30 is a great round because IT WORKS!

Blue, I'm not trying to beat you up, either.

I have hunted elk for my entire career, and the one thing I can say is that elk will always surprise you. They'll always hand you a play that you were not counting on, and this, besides the fact that they are indeed very big and very tough, is the reason that you should really carry plenty of rifle.

Why waste a trip? You might just have the opportunity of a lifetime presented to you when you least expect it, and would it not be a shame to be unable to capitalize on it simply because you'd rather not carry a little extra weight.

Like Kenny Jarrett says, "Lose five pounds off yer a$$!"

But seriously, why not find a lightweight rifle with a synthetic stock in an ideal elk caliber? Consider an Ultralight Arms custom job from Melvin Forbes. Check out a Remington 700 KS Mountain rifle. A Model 70 Featherweight is no burden, either. No, a synthetic stock isn't pretty according to conventional tastes, but who gives a damn? There's no one worth impressing up there on the mountain, and sythetics offer exactly the sort of lightweight durability and weatherproofness that an elk rifle needs the most. When it comes to elk hunting, the only thing that counts is performance............

AD

blue,

Do a search here for these subjects:

• "What ever happened to the 25-35?"
• ".17 caliber a Bear Gun!"
• "Magnums for Wimps"

Keep the quotation marks and be sure to search for subject only. Further, limit the search to user Atkinson, and open the search for a few years back. He, too, is a very experienced hunter; he posts here regularly.

The .17 caliber subject addresses your topic directly. Your .30-30 will work as you intend, but you will be limiting your opportunities. While Mr. Atkinson has done what you seek, he doesn't do so any longer.

From what I've read, a good 170 gn bullet would be a better choice for the .30-30. The older hunters also felt the .35 Rem was a far better cartridge for such work. I don't know if the old Winchesters were ever chambered for it, but the Marlins still are (or were the last time I looked) and are nearly as trim. The old .35-30 wildcat will certainly work in a Winchester and give .35 Rem performance.

By any standard, I am not an accomplished hunter, but I do feel the hunt doesn't require a kill to be a fine outing. As with any endeavor, the greater the chance of failure, the greater the feeling of accomplishment when you succeed. Best wishes.

Blue, from what you say, the 30-30 may just be OK. You are right, you can enjoy the hunt, and accept the limitations. Most of the people I know that have hunted elk and had a miserable time had unreal expectations from thier 30-30, 243, 6mm, etc. Being able to be realistic on the expectations, and being able to enjoy the hunt even if you don't see game within those limitations, should result in a good time in the woods. My Dad hunted elk with a 303 Savage, which isn't a whole lot more than a 30-30. My brother-in-law still has the rifle. My dad did move up to a 270, which he considered adequate for well placed shots. He didn't get rid of the 303 however, used it on whitetail and black bear and was quite satisfied with it. I used it myself for a number of years, a well placed shot with the 303 would bring down just about any deer sized game under a hundred yards, for me, but it is light on elk, IMHO.

Blue, in the responses to your other post, a common theme was "get in shape". If you get in proper shape, the extra say 3 or 4 pounds aren't gonna bother you. Also, maybe you could leave your cell phone at home. And maybe a few other gadgets that folks can't seem to hunt without anymore.

I also agree with what AD had to say.

Chuck



I wonder why you have trouble with that line of reasoning? I have seen many nice whitetail bucks while out hunting and let them walk. It can be a lot of fun watching them after they find out they have been fooled. Maybe for a lot of hunters that is foolish. Who knows, I might see a nice Elk this fall while hunting and let him walk as well. Maybe not. For me, its being out there that counts. Perhaps when you get to be as old and decrepit as I am you will more understand what I am saying.



I am not going with a guide. I don't need a guide. The reason I don't need a guide is because I don't "need" to see anything and I don't "need" to kill anything. I need to do the hunt correctly and I need to experience the mountains and I need to hunt elk, and someday I need to hunt sheep and moose as well. But I just don't feel the need to shoot any one of them. Yea, I might like to get a trophy if one popped up in front of me. And I plan to hunt hard. But I could just as easily let that trophy walk away as well.



I will take your advise and take my hasselblad with.



Beemanbeme



I don't have a cell phone!!



Blue

Pack the 30-30 then.

Chuck

Blue, following your reasoning, forget the Hasselblad and use a Kodak Brownie... or better yet a pin-hole camera !

Don't listen to any of these idiots that think you need a scoped rifle, or magnum caliber to kill an elk with a 30-30.

If you know your limits with your rifle, and have good bullet placement a 30-30 is no problem.

More elk in WY have died by ways of the ol lever action that probably anything else.

MG

I totally agree with Madgoat. I, as he live in ELK country and have experianced (I have, as I dont know him) a lot of Elk hunts. Fact is, I am good friends with more than a hand-full of outfitters from my local area. But to get to the point: hunt it the way you want. I know several people that use .243Winchesters and, with proper shot placement, get one every year. So I'd say to ignore these others who have bashed your idea. What you enjoy is not the same as a lot of these "real hunters" or whatever they want to call themselves; for it comes with time or loss of the ability to go and do these types of activities inorder for one to appreciate it in the way you've described it.

Chuck,
you sound to be a guide yourself from your statement and Id imagine that you do get many (concidering your a guide) clients that just bought the rifle before they came, have you sight it in for them, and make your time one of a pain in the butt; don't take it out on someone who just wants to experiance the hunt and not just the kill. This is something that is easy to forget when one's job depends on the bills coming from guiding as I see it happen every year. ( Im not attacking you, but Blue never has said anything about "the maximum distance he could kill an Elk at", besides his self-set 100yrds.)

All in all, Blue have fun. It sounds like you already are.

Good hunting,
Justin

Blue, I can really empathize with you on the "let them walk" aspect, done it a bunch myself. All I can add is that when I do decide to drop the hammer, I want to know that the cartridge is up to the task, whatever it may be. Elk can take a lot of putting down to stay put, much like moose. That said, "let them walk" has been my way of prolonging the time in the field. And, the camera is one way to share some aspects of that time. I still have to get used to that, however.

Blue-The 30-30 will and has worked just fine on Elk if you do your part.I have shot one with a 30-30 and it did its job.I have two logging buddies that choose to only use the 30-30 and they get there Elk almost every year and haven't lost one yet,but they also live right in the middle of them and can pick and choose when or if to shoot untill a good shot is presented.
Like the others said,There are better choices out there as I use the .300 Mag and the .270 with Noslers and Bear Claws for my hunting now.I also have a 45-70 Guide Gun that is way more desirable to carry all day than my .300 but it also is limited to range so the .300 is the one I usually carry because it does it all from short to long shots and you never know with Elk,you could see one 50 yards or 300 yards and I like to be prepared.

Good luck on your hunt.Jayco.

First of all you dont need a 30-30 OR a synthetic stock to have a lightweight rifle. Lots of them around in many different chamberings. Will a 30-30 kill an Elk? Sure it will, but I wouldnt be willing to take the gamble with such a magnificent animal. I wouldnt hesitate to use a 300 savage, but to me a 30-30 just doesnt pack enough mail, especially when you start talking Trophy Elk and I am NOT a big Magnum guy..

If all you want to do is take a stroll in the hills and enjoy the fresh air then a Daisy BB gun will do, but if your even considering taking a shot, then do THE ELK a favor and pack a little more heat.

Do a little research Blue, not everyone thinks that you need at least a 300 WM to hunt an Elk, but a large majority of highly qualified individuals (many of them dead) would NOT reccomend something as anemic as a 30-30 for Elk. A 7X57, 300 Savage, 308 Win, 30-06 and such are all adequate and can be easily had in lightweight low recoiling rifles.

Ofcourse a 30-30 will kill an elk,but greatly restrict your range. If I were going to the work and expense of an elk hunt,I'd prefer a 30-06 or even a .308. I too consider a pointy in chamber and flats in magazine a poor way to go for two reasons. Either your second and following shots will be off or your first shot will be. Murphys law one of those pointies end up in magazine--sure you know not to do it--do you ever get excited??? I agree if you aren't really even interested in hunting---get a camera.

Madgoat

Please!!! Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And hearing from people on their opinion is exactly why I posted this question. Nobody here is an "idiot", and in fact I consider Chuck to be quite knowledgeable and I respect his opinion, just as I respect yours.

I don't agree with others that one needs to kill anything when one goes hunting. the fact that one has worked hard for a trophy (and the meat) and then let the animal walk is much like catch and release fishing. Like I said, I might take the shot, but the memory in my mind of what took place might be enough as well.

Blue

Let me make it clear that I am not attacking or bellittling blue. I'm giving my opinion in a general discussion. My ability to discuss things in print generally sucks.

Chuck

blue,
I have no issue with your attitude toward hunting. It is a pastime that allows everyone to follow their own path. Everyone places their own limits and defines their own challenge. Some hunters define a successful hunt by the taking of game and others by how much challenge they can add. Nothing wrong either way. Sometimes I hunt with a longbow and homemade cedar arrows and sometimes with a scoped rifle. I enjoy both. That said I wouldn't lean toward using a 30-30 for elk unless that was the only firearm I had. As has been pointed out, elk are big tough animals and my preference would be for something a bit more powerful. If you want to add to the challenge with a rifle take off your scope. You place a challenging dimension on yourself while maintaining the ability to deliver a bullet with more punch. Like I said I have no problem with limiting yourself or with having the attitude that it is okay to let an animal walk but once you do decide to pull the trigger the limitations and challenge end. At that point the only goal is to kill the animal as quickly as possible.

Jeff

If you can't carry a real rifle how are you ever going to pack out an elk?

"My ability to discuss thing in print generally sucks"--now that is a line that I like...I feel it would be funner, and a lot easier to cuss and discuss things like this around a campfire, as opposed to a puter. I'd bet there would be a bit fewer terse discussions as I find it quite tough to read the tone of a puter. Make sense?



And on a bit of a side note.It would also be quicker and easier to get a sense of the players who've been on the field a lot verses those that just got there uni, but have read a lot about the game.



"GET TO THE HILL"



Dogz

Mike

I don't recall stating that I couldn't carry a "real" rifle.

Nevertheless, I am going to spend the extra money to have a person on standby with a couple of horses should I
1. see one. 2. decide to shoot it. 3. find that packing it out by myself is beyond my capabilities.

Blue

I guess I'm a real idiot for limiting myself to 30 yd shots with a bow. I rifle hunt too but I pass up lots of shots. Don't know why but somedays I don't feel like it, beside it would end the elk hunting for the season. Hunting is more important to me than killing and bragging about a 350 yd shot on a 360" bull with my 340 Weatherby. Any fool with a gun can do that.

Blue,



I suggest visiting some pawn shops or gun shows, find a light .30/06 in fair condition (but good muzzle crown) and sell it when you get back. Or work a trade with the fella that packs your meat out.



If you have your heart set on the .30-30, try to get some flatnose X-bullets to shoot well.

Ask any "expert" and he will tell you that a 30/30 will not kill an Elk, at any distance.

However if you don't tell your 30/30 that, it won't know the difference, and if you can put your bullet where it needs to go, then chances are the 30/30 won't know what the 'experts" say and you'll have an elk.

Like a Bow hunter like Oscar, if you operate within the limitations in your equipment ( and that even applies to a XXX Magnum), then your chances of success are a lot better.

It just amazes me in the days long ago, a lot of elk were taken with 30/30s, 30/40s, 300 Savages, 303 Savages etc.

IN Oregon, even 243s are legal for Elk. It may not be ideal for all scenarios, but then again, Elk hunting never was an ideal scenario anyway was it?

Several years ago, we had someone who shot and Elk and upon gutting it, there was something on the wall of the heart that looked like a cyst. Instead after we took it off the heart and ran it under some water, it turned out to be a mushroomed bullet. Some would conclude that is a reason to use "enough gun". I concluded that it shows that Elk can be tough, and that a certain amount of Luck is needed.

Who knows what a bullet will do.

What is the difference of a 30/30 shot at an animal at 100 yds, and one shot at 500 yds with a WhateverMag?

I would dare say every year Elk hunting, more elk are shot at, at ranges of 400 to 500 yds than those shot at, at ranges of 100 yds. I am sure most of the guys shooting at elk at 500 yds are carrying a Magnum of some type. ( nothing wrong with the gun, more something wrong with those that think their range is as far as the eye can see)

I would also tend to think, that the average guy carrying a magnum has more " disneyland" ideas of what his rifle can do, than the average guy carrying a 30/30.

Personally, I think the good choice would be a lightweight rifle in 260 or 7/08 or so, or even a 308 with a decent bullet.

I look very closely at animals that are stuffed when ever I go into a Cabela's when I am back in the central US. Seeing those animals up close and looking at them side to side, I can't see why hunters seem to think they need a cannon to down one. That is Elk, Bears, Deer, Antelope etc.

But that is me, and I am not going to tell someone else what to carry, be it a 400 Weatherby Mag or a lowly 30/30.
If HE can make it work, that is what counts.

cheers and good shooting
seafire