The point about using your "heavy" or DGR on deer is very well taken, IMO.

There are those who mock others for choosing a heavy rifle to use in hunting North American game, but, total familiarity with a no BS medium bore or heavy rifle gained by shooting deer can be real helpful in big bear country.

It's a practical concept which many of my friends here in B.C. believe in and I think that Allen's late friend Bobby Fontana also did this.

"A 2 inch pecker will work, but who wants one?"

I've heard it said though, that 2" is better than nothing. And besides, it looks like a yard in Rhode Island.

I'm kind of weird. I have a 10 lb 30-06, and about the same, 375 H&H, same weight, same scope.

Now benching these puppies, admitted the 375 has a m brake, is no fun. Off hand, who cares?

But, to get to the REAL problem is: REAL LOADS SUCK.

Factory ammunition generally, seems to use the cheapest frigging powder they can find, and, load it to max pressure, regardless of caliber, with the cheapest bullets, and charge the maxium price. It's almost like they are telling you,
"Stupid ass...reload!!!!"

375 works great at 40k pressure, most factory shit is 55-65K, with cheap ass powders, that kick like hell.
Do I need this crap?
NO!

OK: I did get a deal: 200 rounds of Weatherby factory 300 grain softs, at WBY velocities for
PMC prices.

So, that means:
1. Anyone want to bench the rifle for me?
2. Want to trade? Brass for loaded round?

Anyone have a 20 pound 375 H&H, I can shoot off this 70k ammo in?

How about my 375 CZ 550, with a 30 pound bag of lead????

s

I am w/ Allen on this "false economy" of bullets. I shoot my hunting rifles quite a bit, I pretty much only hunt w/ an NP egardless of caliber, they just work, every time. The few times I have used a conventional cup/core bullet, performance has left me concerned. Not that the animal didn't die, often right on the spot, but the bullets usually expand too fast or fail to exit a broadside rib shot. The NP may not be THE premium bullet anymore but it's still several steps up from a cup/core w/ little price diff.
So if price is a problem, then work up two loads, one w/ your hunting bullet & one "cheap" cup/core for practice. What's the wprst that will happen, you'll shoot more!

Wow, GS, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.

While I must defer to the greater experience of Allen Day and others on the larger species of animal on other continents and countries My experience with Nosler partions is virually nil, having used them one time on a deer hunt. My normal bullet for deer in a 30-06 is the Sierra Pro-hunter 180 gr. bullet. I found that with the load I had worked with that bullet, I could substitute the Nosler Partition with no change.I had the Nosler load worked up for an elk hunt that fell through due to work constraints. Those same constraints also almost cost me my yearly deer hunt as well. Due to short handedness at work, we were doing 12 hour shifts seven days a week. Great paychecks but talk about being worn out. I didn't have time to even load up a box of my deer loads. No problem as I had two boxes of the elk loads made up for the hunt that fell through. I'd told the boss the day before that the next day was the very last day of the season and I was not coming in.
The first bad thing that happened was I overslept. Here it is, 8 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. Well, the place I'd planned to hunt was 50 miles away to the turnoff and another 20 miles on a rough two track road. Might as well just hunt the canyon behind the house. Maybe I'll at least jump a spike or something. I'm heading up the canyon and I see a big bodied buck off to one side. Oh well, a bird in the hand. I get out of the truck, and using the hood for a rest, I punch one of the Noslers right through the top of the heart. The deer flinches and moves about ten feet. The shot was at roughly 35 yards. I punch round #2 right into the lung area. Another flinch from the buck. Shot #3 breaks an antler and shot # 4 was a complete miss. I'm thinking this damn deer is bullet proof. I force myself to settle down, and I break his neck with the last shot. During the gutting, I look at the heart which has a finger sized groove cut in the top of the organ, but the wall of the heart was not penetrated. The lungs had a fairly clean one inch hole running through them with little apparent damage. The most damage was the bullet that hit the neck, smashing the bone leaving about a 3" hole on the exit. Very little bloodshot meat on that animal. This deer, the heaviest I have ever taken, weighed 295 pounds on my butcher's certified scales. This was skinned, the head removed, gutted and the legs cut off at the knees. He was so old his neck didn't swell up and the rut was in full swing at the time. He literally had no teeth and probably would not have made it through the winter. I had to cut him in half, just to get him into my truck.
Now, I'm the first to admit that a one time instance is not enough to judge a bulelt's performance, but frankly, after all the hoopla I've heard about how great Nosler Partitions were, I'm disappointed as hell. I do seriously believe that if I had been using my normal deer load with the Sierra Pro-hunter, that deer I believe, would have been a bang/flop. That load was chronographed at 2750 FPS average BTW. Defective batch? Maybe. All I know is they did not do the job I expected them to do based on their reputation.
Paul B.

If the first shot to the heart had been with a 165 balistic tip, the deer would have walked about fifty yards and lay down dead. You would have found the entire thoracic cavity pulverized post mortem.

Well, live and learn.

Super bullets, including partitions, are counter productive on light game such as deer. Something a little more frangible is needed. Unless you intend to shoot at the South end of a North bound buck. And the balistic tip will do that too, at 30-06 velocities.

Lots and lots of folks who post on this forum have what I call 'magnum-itis.' It's got to have magnum in the cartridge name or else they won't be caught dead with it in their hands. It's got to be fast, fast, fast. The faster, the better. Well, the good old cup and core bullets go to pieces at magnum speeds. That's why premium bullets were created.

Come Monday, the opening day of deer season here in Pennsylvania, I'm heading to the deer woods using my 35 Whelen handloaded with what? NOT premium bullets. That's for sure. But a 200 grain roundnose with so much exposed lead on the nose it looks like the end of a cigar. Perfect medicine for these deep woods conditions. Probably not as good a choice if my quarry was way across a canyon with the state of Idaho between us.

Yes, if you still shoot a non-magnum, corelocts and silvertips will due the job just fine. Don't get caught up in the monkey-see monkey-do mentality that so many seem to suffer from. Premium bullets are not a magic potion in all cases. Maltese Falcon showed a perfect example with the 30\30 Winchester.

Even using premiums, you still need to match the bullet to the game. The 180grNP is a great elk bullet from the 06, but a bit heavy for deer. My son had a sim. experience w/ his first mulie. I loaded 180grNPs for a combo elk/deer hunt & his only shot was @ a smallish 4x4 @ 275yds or so. His first shot was on the money, just behind the front leg, broadside. The deer flinched, then high tailed it downhill into a brushy canyon. When he popped out the far side, Josh stuck another into the shoulder & he was down. Both bullets exited & left a good wound, but that deer probably falls faster to a cup/core or a 165grNP moving 200fps faster.

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
Wow, GS, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.

This topic hits a sore spot: a rather large bruise on my right shoulder.

GS

Not to mention some of the absurd prices we have been forced to pay, and the slow evolution of bullets, thanks to the Oil Company like monopoly on bullets, for the last 30 years.

Thank God for the new monometals, and milling machines. They provide serious competition, and, hopefully, one of the major companies won't be able to buy up the patents on the machines...

Otherwise, we may all go back to casting bullets...

Also brings back memories of handloading for a Charter arms, 44 special bulldog. I bought 44 special ammo, lead 250 grain remmington, IIRC, for some absurd price, in 1980 or so. The bullets moved so slow you could see'em, and, you couldn't hit the head on a mansize target, at 7 yards. LOTS of unused powder.

Dropped to Unique, and 240 grain JHP handloads, that cost 20% of the 22.00 a box remmington garbage, and all of a sudden the target had 5 shots, on head, at about 300 fps more velocity, with far less recoil. I wonder if the ammo companies think we have to have the tar knocked out of us to think we got our monies worth, in ammunition?

Most if not all Commercial factory ammuntion is loaded below SAAMI maximums, for the simple reason that not all firearms being used are safe and because they cannot control where the ammunition is being used (temperature ranges from -40 - +100 farenheit) so given all the possible variables they have to stay on the side of safety.

The powder lots are huge and by virtue of that fact they are relatively cheap, but are of the same quality as any that we use for reloading and due to blending and additives they can achieve velocities and pressures that we as reloaders can not even safely come close too.

The case of bullet design has evolved over time, but the ammo companies must also consider that the vast majority of hunters care little about what bullet is loaded as long as it works and since they shoot at less than 200 yards and maybe fire 2 or 3 rounds per season , they also must consider that many hunters will spend a fortune on gear or a hunt, but baulk at spending a lot of money for ammunition, which in my experience is the way it is.

If you can find a lot of ammunition that makes it near or to SAAMI maximums, then the ammunition company goofed and thier lawyers will have a collective heart attack, because in the litigous society of the US, they are not going to take the risk.

YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by Maltese Falcon:
Most if not all Commercial factory ammuntion is loaded below SAAMI maximums, for the simple reason that not all firearms being used are safe and because they cannot control where the ammunition is being used (temperature ranges from -40 - +100 farenheit) so given all the possible variables they have to stay on the side of safety.

The powder lots are huge and by virtue of that fact they are relatively cheap, but are of the same quality as any that we use for reloading and due to blending and additives they can achieve velocities and pressures that we as reloaders can not even safely come close too.

The case of bullet design has evolved over time, but the ammo companies must also consider that the vast majority of hunters care little about what bullet is loaded as long as it works and since they shoot at less than 200 yards and maybe fire 2 or 3 rounds per season , they also must consider that many hunters will spend a fortune on gear or a hunt, but baulk at spending a lot of money for ammunition, which in my experience is the way it is.

If you can find a lot of ammunition that makes it near or to SAAMI maximums, then the ammunition company goofed and thier lawyers will have a collective heart attack, because in the litigous society of the US, they are not going to take the risk.

YMMV

This Test sort of says it all...

Sorry, I put no faith in those Folks.

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
Allen, if you are saying, develope one good load per rifle and use it on everything, I'm your boy.

I agree, except that I detest recoil and use the Nosler 140 grain bullets in the 7mm magnum. I have most of a box of 175 grain bullets that I bought for a moose hunt quite awhile back, in case I go for something bigger than elk.

Interesting article. Pretty much spot on concerning the 180 gr. 30-06 loads. I tried a box each of the Hornady and Federal Light mag. and High energy loads. Recoil was stout, not all that much velocity gain, and accuracy sucked in gour different rifles. My take? Pretty damned expensive for getting once fired brass.
On the other hand, my .300 Win. Mag. has a 26" barrel and my handload delivers 3050 FPS with no pressure signs and is very accurate. I don't think I'd pay the price they want for just 30 FPS more.
I quit taking GUNTESTS because most of what they wrote was totally irrelevant to me and my shooting habits. The stuff they had though that was relevant was usually right on the money.
Paul B.

I'm not sure if any North American Deer would know the differance between a .11 cent sierra or a $1. dollar designer bullet "Barnes, Fail Safe" all great bullets however.