Hi
sivertip ,cor.lokt and the other non premier bullets has killed plenty of games brfore. why should one buy more expensive ammo for normal big game huntingm if dangerous games are not on the menu?
regards
yes

quote:

Hi
sivertip ,cor.lokt and the other non premier bullets has killed plenty of games brfore. why should one buy more expensive ammo for normal big game huntingm if dangerous games are not on the menu?
regards
yes

Because it is cheap insurance for increasingly expensive hunts: It provides for greater margin of error, shot opportunity and killing power for only an extra buck or two. Sure, I will use up an old box of Power-Points occassionally for deer hunting my back 100 acres, but I know where the deer will walk out, broadside and under no time pressure etc. and I am in a stand with a solid rest and can practically guarantee which hair behind his shoulder will be struck with the bullet. Under those circumstances, premium or super premiums may not be necessary, but I find it increasingly difficult to justify any hunting with non-premium bullets when their cost is less than a fraction of 1% of the total cost of even the cheapest hunt.

For deer sized game with normal hunting calibers, at reasonable ranges, shot behind the shoulder there is nothing wrong with them.

Premium bullets do provide better performance in ultra high velocity cartridges, or on game larger than deer where penetration is more of an issue. They also work better if you hit the shoulder or other large bone.

It keeps ammo manufacturers in biz.

You don't need the premium bullets. But a wise gunsmith once said to me:

"A 2 inch pecker will work, but who wants one?"

Nothing at all wrong with them when you forget to pack your ammo.

because at 360000000 fps those normal bullets fail!

quote:

Because it is cheap insurance for increasingly expensive hunts: It provides for greater margin of error, shot opportunity and killing power for only an extra buck or two.

That about sums it up.

When I travel out of state to hunt even deer, it's costing me plenty. Who cares what the bullet or ammo costs, you seldom fire more than one maybe two shots. Cheap insurance baby.

Yes,

A loaded (pun?) question on this site?

Vannilla-flavored ammo is fine for the everyday stuff. Millions of hunters around the globe prove it everyday.

You've reaching out to the few and the annointed on this website who are most probably way above the average once-a-year hunter and at the pinnacle of our passion; if you think you're going to get a confirmation of the query you asked, pronbably not here.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
You don't need the premium bullets. But a wise gunsmith once said to me:

"A 2 inch pecker will work, but who wants one?"

Now that was funny

Becuse these Pinheads wouldn't have any thing to dream about in between reciving their issues of Outdoor Life and Field and Stream. They are the same guys that think a 375 H&H is reasonable for Elk, and won't go within 100 miles of a Bear with out a 458 Lott. It's all Madison ave. markiting that the bullet makers pay millions for to get you to waist your money.

If you know how to hunt and shoot, and wait for a good shot in the chest you don't need a margine of error.

Over the past 35 years I have killed dozens of NA game with one factory loaded Core-lokt. The last box I bought at Wal-Mart cost $10 and shot 1" @ 100yds.
Dr B

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Becuse these Pinheads wouldn't have any thing to dream about in between reciving their issues of Outdoor Life and Field and Stream. They are the same guys that think a 375 H&H is reasonable for Elk, and won't go within 100 miles of a Bear with out a 458 Lott. It's all Madison ave. markiting that the bullet makers pay millions for to get you to waist your money.

If you know how to hunt and shoot, and wait for a good shot in the chest you don't need a margine of error.

Over the past 35 years I have killed dozens of NA game with one factory loaded Core-lokt. The last box I bought at Wal-Mart cost $10 and shot 1" @ 100yds.
Dr B

Sounds like somebody has got a 2 inch pecker.

Just because the box says "premium" does not automaticly mean that it is a better choice for deer hunting.

It is not about dangerous game at all. It is about the love of reloading by perfectionist that like to get the most out of what they do. The Barnes TSX performs far more superior than the Sierra Gamekings that I have successfully used for many years. Recent test on deer gave me much better results than before.
It is all about the love of this reloading hobby that can be carried to whatever extreme an individual wishes.
The stuff you mentioned is okay and nothing wrong with it but I am not satisfied with okay.
Enjoy it your way and the rest will enjoy it their way.

For killing deer with standard calibers - nothing. Pretty much anything will kill deer but go beyond deer or start using a really fast magnum and those super bullets come into their own. I don't really care how many seasons Uncle Joe has gotten his Elk with a 30-40 Kraig and the cheapest ammo he could find. When I pay big money for an Elk hunt I am going to hit that animal with a premium bullet.

I have been a handloader for years. First I did it becuse it was fun and interesting to see if I could improve on the ammo makers. Usually I could-easily.
Things are not that simple anymore. Depending on the caliber, you can buy ammo that is very hard to improve on from the makers and you get the ultimate reliability of factory ammo. I know-it fails to . But not with the frequency of handloads.
The only calibers I reload anymore are 9.3x62 and 264 win mag. The rest I can buy in dizzying abundance and variety of bullets.
Someone is going to take me to task for generalities but remember guys all this is a general statement. You can surely find specific instance that someone -probably Ray Atkinson -can built a better load.
I still play with reloading but I don't reload all my hunting ammo anymore.
The Federal HE Nosler Partition is a hard load to improve on.

quote:

"A 2 inch pecker will work, but who wants one?"

Am I the only one who can't figure out how did this man would know this ?


The cost of the hunt is in direct relationship to the ability of a $.18 bullet to do the job. Other than some gas, a cheap in state license and food I would eat anyway.....elk hunting doesn't cost me much...surprisingly little. I use hunting bullets that cost around $.18/per....they work every single time. If I were investing in an outfitter, traveling hundreds of miles and expecting 'the shot of a lifetime'....no doubt I would upgrade.

Regardless of the cost of the hunt, the bullet is still THE cheapest part of the equation. Using a bullet because it's cheaper just doesn't compute . Regardless of your hunting ability, crap happens & the little extra insurance of a better bullet can save your hunt &/or give you a cleaner kill .

quote:

they work every single time

that about says it all........

Back when I started hunting elk here in CO I used a 32 Win Special.....we are talking a seriously limited number bullet options regardless of cost. Until I started reading forums a few years back I didn't know that gun wouldn't work. UP til then it sure seemed to have worked.

I have a Mod. 70 Classic in Stainless Cal. 375 H+H. I took it and a box of Nitrex 285Gr. loads out to shoot a whitetail dear this past week.

Why?

I hope to hunt some big things soon and the more I shoot with this gun and load the better I feel about my ability to do the job.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

The retail on this ammo is well above $100, but with the help of a friend and a lot of time looking I bought 8 boxes of new ammo for less than $150 so I can shoot paper,cans or what ever is in season until I can get the most out of any dream hunt I might get to go on.

quote:

You don't need the premium bullets. But a wise gunsmith once said to me:

"A 2 inch pecker will work, but who wants one?"

Confucious say "Man who walks through metal detector sideways going to bangkok..."

Back on thread--I shot a deer on Sunday evening, a little before dark, through the guts, just behind the diaphram. I was using a premium bullet--Nosler's Accubond. I didn't recover the deer until Monday afternoon, and by that time it was completely spoilt!

Now, don't misunderstand me, it was my fault, my own fault, my own most grievious fault. That said, I wonder if a Ballistic Tip would have thrown more fragments into the lungs, or at least have made a bigger hole coming out for more blood?

Then again, had I been using a BT, maybe I would have hit the shoulder and blown it up--hell, all I can think was that it just wasn't my day.

Well, redemption begins this Saturday with the Wisconsin opener!

friar

For medium game (deer) and MVs below 2900 fps, I use plain-Jane Hornady Interlocks. Interlocks work well within their performance envelope, I have no complaints whatsoever. Above that MV threshold or for larger NA game Partitions get the nod.

I haven't hunted Africa, nor do I have a .300 Hyperdriveultramanglum, so Partitions are about as exotic as I currently need for my huntng forays (although tungsten core Depleted Uranium LBT slugs for my lever action 45-70 sounds interesting ).

What is "wrong" with normal loads is only one thing. Limited set of circumstances.

When you are hunting whitetails on a powerline cut or sendero, what you really want is a bullet that shoots accurately at long range.

When hunting white-tails from a tree stand over a food plot, you want a bullet that will put the animal down with a rib-cage shot.

When hunting elk in the dark-timber, you want a bullet that keeps on going, and going, and going.....

However, what if you are hunting elk in mixed habitat, and you have a deer tag and a bear tag? What "normal" load will kill a 800 lb bull elk at 40 paces, while still killing a spike deer or a bear at 300? Without ruining a bunch of good meat?

In the end, wild game is the most expensive meat you will ever consume. Lose another 10 lbs to bloodshot or a bear hide to a volley-ball sized hole, and you could have easily bought another box or two of super-premiums. JMO, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi
sivertip ,cor.lokt and the other non premier bullets has killed plenty of games brfore. why should one buy more expensive ammo for normal big game huntingm if dangerous games are not on the menu?
regards
yes

flying insurance policies



shit can happen, premium bullets work better most of the time

Perhaps those that feel a dollar each for bullets is a cost of little consequence because you are only going to use a couple of them; just perhaps they would be well advised to spend a little more time behind the trigger.

Some of us expend hundreds and even thousands of bullets each year. Marksmanship can compensate some for a slightly more frangible bullet.

When one tunes a rifle to shoot a particular load (with a conventional game bullet) all year long and knows the trajectory intimately, it may not be wise to choose another load to carry while hunting.

Are we not looking at this backwards??? The reason many (most ?) of us use a certain bullet is because when we first tried it, it worked. And it has kept working so we haven't had any reason to change. Call us luddites if you like but if it works why fix it? Why should I trade in my tried and true choices because of some high-flying claims that are in all probability, 99% bullshit and 1% fact? Were I not getting one shot kills and pass thru wound channels at every reasonable angle, I might be tempted to give some of the magic bullets a try. But that isn't the case. Also, if I was a box a year man and did most of my hunting and shooting in cyberspace, I'd want any advantage I could get. Real or imaginary.

When the game is "smaller" than the bullet a standard bullet matched to the game and striking velocity is as good as can be.

Of course in most instances some perfect premium bullet will be ideal.

However I have used the 30-06, 7mm RM and other similar rounds at woods ranges on a lot whitetails and a 358 Win shooting 180 or 200 gr soft points will outperform those other rounds decade after decade.

Whats the worst thing that's going to happen to you if you go with a basic premium bullet such as the Nosler Partition in lieu of a "normal" or tin-foil bullet, such as Sierra Game King?

AD

Allen,

The topic was on non dangerous game.

Of course plenty of big stuff has been taken with cup and cores. That's the place for a modern bullet for sure.

By the way what magnification did you have on your scope when you blasted that buffalo in your avatar?

I know I'm wrong but I don't think of NP's and Speer Grand Slams as "premium" bullets in the current context. Yes, they cost more but not a great deal more; they give better performance, but, in truth, not a great deal more. Just enough to make you feel good about yourself so to speak.
I've killed a lot of deer, white tail and mulie, 12 elk, antelope, no large bears --nor small ones for that matter-- and I've used different bullets but I can't bring to mind a single time that a core lokt or hot core wouldn't have worked as well as whatever I was using.
I try to be a careful hunter with regards to distance and shot placement. I shoot hundreds and hundreds of rounds a year in play and practice. If you hit an elk in the right place with a "tinfoil" bullet of proper weight for calibre, you will kill it. If you can't do that, then you can't buy enough magic in a box to compensate for your inabilities.

Savage, I realize that the discussion is about non-dangerous game. I'm talking about one good, dependable, premium bullet for everything from whitetails to moose. Why not use a "regular" premium bullet such as a Nosler Partition for the whole works? What's the very WORST thing that's going to happen to you if you do? Guys that have some nickle & dime mentality about bullets drive me crazy

I shot the 'signature' buffalo at 40 yards with a 416 Rem. Mag. and a single 370 gr. North Fork soft-point. The 1.5-5X Leupold was set at 1.5X.....

The buffalo in the 'avitar' was shot with a 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solid out of a 458 Win. Mag. at about twenty feet. Again, the scope was a 1.5-5x Leupold set at 1.5x.

AD

I tend to agree with this and ALL of my hunting is done in an area where Elk, Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer, Moose, Caribou, Black Bear, wild Sheep, Mtn Goats and Grizzlies plus Bison can be and often are hunted at the same time in the same area with the same rifle. So, I tend to err on the side of caution and use NPs as my standard bullet in almost every rifle I own and shoot, 30 at present.

If, I lived where Whitetail, Mulies and maybe cow Elk were the major species available, or, where private ranches/open country and easy terrain were factors in my hunting, I would probably use a Hornady or whatever bullet. I might add that in brushy country, I would prefer the .358 Win. that Savage is so fond of and, with 250 NPs, I would hunt anything in B.C. with this. Actually, I wish my ancient BLR "truck gun" was a .358 rather than a .308 as this is a very much under-rated cartridge, IMHO.

Overall, though, it's tough to beat the NP for a general purpose missile, at least where I hunt.

I have friend that I went to high school with. He's never reloaded a shell in his life. I started reloading 36 years ago. He shoots a 270 for everything from prairie dogs and coyotes to mule deer and elk. He buys whatever is one sale in 130 to 150 gr. and never changes his scope. He even showed up at elk camp one year with 150 gr. round noses. But...he is a guaranteed one shot elk killer EVERY year. He knows that model 70 like the back of his hand. He never flinches and puts the bullet where he needs to. (give or take a couple of inches )

I on the other hand have to play with every combination on the planet. This year I started using the TSX and will probably stick with it 'til something "better" comes along.

Bottom line is I'm extremely analytical and like numbers and info...he isn't and doesn't. I don't try to change him and he doesn't try to change me. We have a great time and have killed a lot of elk together. (But if I could just get him to try those TSXs)

I originally started loading to eliminate excuses and it is funny how one can get so analytical. I will not hunt with anything that does not shoot under 1MOA but that is extreme really. I have been shooting lately standing at the range and keeping everything inside 8" and none would have missed a keer. I bet if your friend shot something with the TSX he would be hooked though.
Good Luck and have fun in the woods.

quote:

I bet if your friend shot something with the TSX he would be hooked though.

I'd just like to see him stick with one factory load...150gr. probably.

He is an incredible hunter though and in tremendous shape. I watched him kill a raghorn 4 pt. elk a few years ago at 80 yds. with his 270. He was totaly calm as he shot him and then just waited for the bull to fall over. Most guys would have been shaking or rushing their shot and when they were shooting and he didn't fall over, they'd have poured the entire magazine into him. Not with Mark. He just matter of factly said "I figured he wasn't going anywhere."

Allen, if you are saying, develope one good load per rifle and use it on everything, I'm your boy. I've a 7mag that has never had anything shot thru it except 160gr NP's. I have used it on everything from antelope to elk. I do a lot of practice in the off season using "cheap" bullets of a like weight but the only shots I've made on game has been with a 160 NP. Same deal with my 300win, and then there's...........

iwz, that's exactly what I mean. One good solid load for everything from deer to moose. Why complicate things?

AD

Remington core-lokts kill deer and moose both very well. I have shot them both with 180 grain core-lokts and they killed them dead as any bullet would have. I have killed whitetail and mule deer, elk, black bear, moose, pigs, carabou with them.

In a way it's funny my dad used a 30/30 for everything. Whitetail, Moose, Elk, Black Bear and probably wouldn't have hesitated using it on a Grizzly Bear if need be.

His load was 170 grain "Whatever Brand" that he happened to pick up and in my 25 years of hunting with him it all fell to the 30/30 and as far as I can remember 1 shot was fired for each and every animal and the bullets did the job with proper placement.

I bought him 2 boxes of 30/30 Federal Premium 170 Nosler partitions (25 bucks a box compared to 9 bucks for generic) in 95, because I felt that they would suit him better given the different sized animals he hunted, well the performance was exactly the same as the generic and to him no difference was experienced, all thru and thru 1 shot kills from muzzle distance to 200 yards with the irons on the rifle, in his case the premium bullets didn't add to his confidence, in fact they didn't even figure into the equation, but he was a master with that rifle, it was like an extension of his person and what he shot at died...period.

Now I have generic loads for several rifles and hand load for those I prefer and while a generic or Hornady may be cheaper than a Lapua or a Sierra or some product from Speer, RWS or custom maker, I like the extra little bit of security provided by the premium bullet, because, it is just possible that I may encounter a situation where the generic bullet may be pushed to it's design limit, but the premium is well within it's operational threshhold.

As far as Heavies and using them for deer or other non dangerous species, where else are you going to get real time experience with the rifle and possibly shooting from awkward off balance positions at quickly fleeting game at various distances ? The dangerous species don't always wait for you to settle into a perfect shooting stance or get a pefect sight picture before attempting to express thier general displeasure with your presence

If you feel comfortable with a generic loading and it's not a hunt of a lifetime or an expensive guided hunt, then who am I to say that you are wrong or misguided.