Perhaps I should have said "less than ideal".....though I'm sure someone out in cyberspace considers it perfect for moose.



Put any bullet made in the .308 Win and I wouldn't be comfortable taking a deep-body shot at a moose at the range limits of even my modest abilities....that's clearly less than marginal, at least for me.

with a 165 or 180-grained bullet, i would not feel at all undergunned using a .308 for moose. if you feel that there might be a possibility of a quartering shot, then get a partition, barnes or other premium bullet. as for end-to-end shots, my experience with deer and antelope tell me that a patient hunter never HAS to take these shots, and that a quartering or broadside will almost always present itself. either that, or another opportunity will come by. this may be different with moose.

Nor would I feel undergunned at closer ranges.



My point was that the true value of magnums allow one to operate at the limits of his ability on larger game, they do not extend the range within the limits of his ability to a significant degree. My .308 is good-to-go for whitetails to the limits of my ability to reliably connect but not so for moose, IMO.



I'm certainly in the closer-is-better camp and I agree about patience but sometimes a shot opportunity is fleeting and deep-angle and cannot be improved upon, particularly when the game is in a group. I've taken several whitetails like this (though none up the rear for the same reasons you stated) with .308 Win and 150 partitions but get no warm fuzzies considering the shot on a moose.



On x-man's moose and a deep-quartering shot, at what range would you consider the .308 Win. and 165 partitions marginal, if any?

i could very easily be wrong in all of this, but i would think that anywhere within a hundred yards should be more than adequate, and a good shooter would do well even out to around 200 yards.



i am at work, so am not able to do up a "proper" ballistics readout, but according to remington's website, 165's are all showing at about a ton of energy at 200 yards. that's about a hundred yards worth of safety margin, in my opinion. at 100 yards, there is also a greater chance of the shot being much more "accurate," meaning that the bullet will have a better chacne of going exactly where the hunter wants it to go, which is, of course, what it is all about.



[added later]considering the terrain that moose is hunted in, the problems that might be encountered with a wounding shot, and the fact that hunting is about mroe than just shooting, i am of the opinion (take it for what it is) that 200 yards is the longest shot that should be attempted on a moose, and would not consider 100 yards a "close shot." the caveat, of course, is that i have never hunted moose. be that as it may, i can't see where a 3-500-yard shot on moose would be "the only option."

It seems that a big perentage of the moose I've seen were heading directly into the jungle, straight away or nearly so. Raking shots on big moving animals sounds like a 338 moment to me.

if you are the kind of hunter that takes raking shots on a big animal running away from you that can disappear in seconds after you wound it, then yes, it would definitely be a "big-bore" moment.

The Magnum/Anti Magnum thread. Were we due this one again? Has it been two weeks already.

I usually fall on the pro standard cartridge side of this debate, but for about a decade my go to deer rifle was a 7mm Mag. It was a fine powerfull, deadly, accurate rifle and my confidence in it was high and I made lots of fine shots with it. Nothing wrong with that, it did the job it was intended to do. But when it is all said and done, nothing kills an animal like a well placed bullet, and nothing accomplishes that like practice with a good rifle. The rest is acedemic.

Seems like I have heard this old arguement about umpteen jillion times in the past 50 years....

Personally I have never been able to tell much difference in any modern caliber from a practical standpoint..I have seen more game wounded by Magnums than I have with std. calibers because the owners wanted to show how potent they were and how flat they shot, and ended up breaking a leg and those days were spent tracking their deer at the expense of everyone elses hunting...

If anyone thinks a 30-378 or a 300 Wby has much advantage over a 270 shooting over a rock rest or resting against a tree, or from any field position then that someone is full of beans..Its about as easy to wiggle on as it is off at extended ranges, wind plays havoc with bullets and trajectory is only one factor of long range shooting..

Hold over be it 3 inches or 2 ft. is the easy part...

I will agree that a 300 whizbang packs a lot more mail in the killing dept. at extended ranges and there lies its advantage...That is why I still shoot a 300 H&H with 200 gr. Noslers and a .338 Win. with 210 Noslers some of the time...I can still hit them as far away with a 308, 270, 30-06 or 280 as I can with any other caliber...

Just how I feel Atkinson. I've seen more game wounded with Magnums than standard calibers. What difference does it make if I have to hold over 14" or 19" i still have to compensate. I can't compensate or know what the wind is doing at 300 yds on a four hundred fifty yard shot. It seems to me the guy with a standard caliber doesn't take the high risk long distance bad angle shots nearly as much as the guy with the big magnum. I think the internet, magazines, gun companies, salesmen etc, have the inexperienced guys convinced that they just need to point and shoot and their lazer magnum will take care of the rest. A lot of these guys find out that the big guns really aren't that much more effective when the animal gets away wounded with a bad shot. Some of them are astonished after shooting one that it didn't just collapse on the spot even with a fatal shot. Watched a guy shoot a medium sized bear with a 340 weatherby 5 times at about 85 yds and then decide he needed a bigger gun, later that day he was then astonished to watch his old buddy drop a bigger bear on the spot about 100 yds further out with a single shot from a .303. Shot placement is the key. If you expect to drop them by shooting around the edges you better get a howitzer.

As in anything else balance is the key.

I compared the 308 with the 30-378 to show the extremes. Neither is an ideal all around cartridge in my opinion.
I think the 300 win is much closer to a perfect balance than the 308 or the 30-378.
Is the 300 win better than the 270 or 30-06? Not on small game but on large game I demand heavier bullets. I see a distinct advantage here. Not a star wars laser but an intelligent increase in power.

The fact that the 308 is used in 1000 yard competition and sniping has nothing to do with a 325 yard shot on an big deer. The 308 plain and simple lacks the horsepower to properly get the job done way out there.

Every guy I have ever shown a nice muley to at long range has pulled the trigger. If you hunt the thicker stuff or are ready to watch the buck of a lifetime walk away bring your 308. If you hunt open country and will pull the trigger on the that buck (most of us will) bring the right tool for the job.

Jamie

Most moose hunters in Prince George B.C. CANADA shoot 3030 .308 and 3006. That a couple a thousand moose each year so don't tell me it,s rediculous!!! And if one gets away wounded everyone knows and it don't happen verry often!!!

roy -

that's what i was trying to say. the .30/30, .308 and .30/06 are more than adwquate for moose under most situations.

this is not to say that the mags are bad, simply that i would not feel undergunned with any of the above.

I shot my first 7MM WSM today and was really surprised!!! There is no comparison in the recoil between it and a 7MM Rem Mag. The rifle was a Model 70 Super Shadow and it was surpriseingly light in weight, no more recoil than my 270 Win. I'm really impressed with this round and will certainly own one in the near future. I know I can shoot it without worrying about the recoil and the light weight will be great for the climbing after Ibex.

Hawkeye47

I enjoyed the article and agree with him.

I also bowhunt and am always striving to get a better shot by being a better hunter.

My .06 has always done the job for me. I shoot 165MatchKings for paper, 165Partitions for deer and anything else with a thin skin, & 180FailSafes for hogs and anything else that might have a thick skin. The 180FailSafes are total overkill on hogs but in Texas it's the only thing we really have to use them on. The excuse being the thick shield on an old big bore. ( I always shoot them about 1" behind the ear anyhow I might work up a 150Partition load for longer range antelope if I ever get the opportunity to hunt them?



my tools











BTW- I used to shoot a whole lot of .223 (prairie dog bullet!)

Jon A;

Naw, you know you just can't teach old dogs new tricks, so I will never learn.

However the 10% at my local range that can out shoot me, I consider you in that class. I have seen some excellent posts of yours on your shooting ability, and actually miss your posts a lot. They may have been different than my point of views but they were pretty much always well thought out and well written, and very informative.

And If I have your attention, I just want to thank you for your wonderful targets that you have posted on your web site listed below your post. I have downloaded them to my computer and use them often. They are excellent!

Hope to see your presence on here a little more often.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

Well I gotta agree with this one. We shoot moose every year....big moose in way up in northern alberta. I've used 30-06 but the other guys all use 30-30's and one shot is all it takes. 308 marginal????????? sheesh

I guess if we follow this rational stright down the line we could conclude that a .30-30 is just as effective and just as versatile as a .300 Weatherby.........

AD

To all,

Wish I had read a little further before posting. I posted my response in the "magnums for whimps" thread rather than this one where it belonged. It's too long for me to retype so read it there if interested. Sorry.

Tom

You can always cut and paste something that you don't want to have to re-type.

allen

I guess it is within 150 yards on almost anything in north america.

by the way, I dont think 30-30 was mentioned in the article, did you read it?

I have been in at the death of more than 100, probably close to 200 big game animals here in B.C. and in Alberta, during the past 40 yrs. To say that the .30-30 WCF is anywhere close to the equal of the .300 WBY within 150 yds, on any game in North America is simply ridiculous.

I have a lot of rifles and I prefer a .338 Win. Mag. for general hunting in B.C., however, I also am very fond of my .270s and .280, in their proper place. When you watch large animals take three chest hits and slowly saunter off to finally lay down, head up, some fifty yds. away is when you realize that bigger is better on big animals, all other factors being equal.

I have lived alone in deep wilderness for months on end and watched as Aboriginal hunters used small rifles to kill pregnant cow Moose, for example, and I have also seen how many of them were wounded and left. I strongly suspect that very few of the .30-30 enthusiasts have spent much time hunting big game inn big bear country, either; one seldom sees guides packing .30-30s.

Yet another thread ragging magnums and praising the .270. It's getting old!
I've only done a lot of hunting with one person, he shoots a .270 for everything. His kills have been anything BUT impressive. I can't remember a single big-game animal being taken with a single shot. Some were decent shots, most were close but not exactly were they should have been. A mag wouldn't solve this, but the gentle .270 isn't exactly improving it either.
Reguardless of choice, the guy behind( or gal) the trigger is what makes the difference.

I said "MOST" not all, right?

I would say Black bear, whitetail, mule deer there would be no difference 99% of the time with a 30/30 and 300 WM within 150 yards. You think the 300 WM will "kill" them Faster? Thats not even comapring apples to apples, the only reason I mentioned it was allen day made a sarcastic comment. Funny thing is the 30/30 wasnt mentioned in the article, did you read it?

You see, down here in the states, I would say the 30/30 has killed more animals, definetely more whitetail deer over the last 50 years than any other cartridge, so it "works." Thats beside the scope of the article though. I would say a 30/06 would work just as well as a 300 WM on ANYthing in North America within 250 yards. How many animals do you shoot past 250 yards?

the article wasnt magnum bashing, it was stating that for "MOST" animals and "most" ranges, the "killing power" and trajectory of a magnum is not "NEEDED."

You actually said ...within 150 yds. on almost anything in North America... and your next post changed that to ...most... and ...down here in the States... and ...Black Bear, Whitetail Deer and Mule Deer...; these comments do not mean the same thing.

First, your initial comments, regardless of their inspiration, are wrong. A .30-30 will certainly kill anything in North America, but, to suggest that this cartridge is adequate for general North American hunting is simply not realistic. To even intimate that it can approximate the .30-06 or any .30 cal. magnum at any range is also wrong. A .30 cal. magnum will most definitely kill black Bears faster than a .30-30 within 150 yds, I have seen dozens of these animals shot and witnessed this phenomenon many times.

The .30-06 and the .300 Mags. are close in killing power, but not equal, within 250 yds, BUT, if there is a small advantage, it lies with the magnum cartridge. Whether Allen Day is sarcastic or not and I actually find him along with Ray Atkinson the most consistently knowledgable posters on this forum, does not obviate physical reality. An appropriate bullet will do more damage to tissue thereby causing more shock trauma and thus quicker death at magnum velocities than at standard velocities, although the difference may not be great.

I have not read the actual article in question, my comments are based on posts I have read in this thread; I base my opinions on actual bush experience, not on magazine articles. I like and respect John Barsness and enjoy discussions with him on 24Hr., but, I am somewhat older than he is and I have considerably more bush experience; I was born in and have spent my entire life in BIG game country and much of that was working in resource management.

I do NOT accept this neo-O'Connor argument that little guns kill as well as bigger ones, I have tracked, found and disposed of far too many wounded, dead and decomposed animals for that.

Well said!

Chuck

Elmer Keith always said "Beware of the man with one rifle". I'm a strong advocate of keeping your battery small and practical. If one rifle will do it then hell yes, one rifle is plenty. "One gun, one load" was another favorite saying of Elmer's. Keep it simple and do not switch loads frequently or you'll never truly "know" your rifle like you should.

I have a few rifles, each has it's place and each is very familiar to me. Living in a rural area I carry a rifle daily in my truck and always have it near when at home. Depending on the season is what dictates which of my rifles I have handy.

Wstrnhuntr
When I shoot game beyond 250 yards (long range), I like to put them down hard. I also like two holes in the animal for easy blood trailing.

I have no problem with the 30-30 at modest ranges. In fact, bullets designed for its performance envelope improve the 30-30�s cause substantially. I own a 30-30 but you will not see me packing it for trophy mule deer.

A 165 Nosler Partition fired into the shoulder joint (my long range shot preference) at 2000 fps certainly will kill. In spite of this, consider my choice for the same job.

The 300 Winchester pushes the 180gr. Nosler 3150fps. Impact velocity is almost 2600 fps at 300 yards. Zeroed 2 inches high at 100 yards, (same sight in as the 308) the bullet will be down 3 inches at 300.

Range estimation or holdover is not required at this distance.
Most people that shoot the 308 win should be familiar with the killing power the 180gr. Nosler Partition has at 2600 fps.
If your 308 has a short barrel, you may need someone to explain it to you.


A 308 will recoil with about 20 fpe. the 300 comes back with about 30 pounds. Does 10 fpe. extra recoil bother you? Then you need more practice.

Yes, the 308 will work at 300 yards�.So will the 45-70.

The 300 win. seems the better balanced open country tool to me.

Jamie

x-man:
To be honest with you, your comment that the 308 is inadequet for large deer at 325 yards did get my hair up a little bit. I have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds from a couple of 308's in the last 30+ years both in competition and at game. I know for darn sure that a 165 gr. bullet at 2800 fps or a 180 gr. bullet at 2640 fps from my 308 with a 24" barrel is more than adequet for any deer that ever walked at 300 yards. I have done it.

Is the 308 the perfect long range hunting cartridge, probably not. In the hands of a skilled rifleman it is very adequet out to 500 yards on deer of any size. I have a 300 WSM that I shoot in long range F class competition. Yeah it is a better 1000 yard cartridge than the 308. I have no problem shooting 70 to 75 rounds in an afternoon of F class competion so no the recoil doesn't bother me. Do I hunt with one. Sure don't, I don't need it. I guess that is confidence born of so many shots being fired with it from 100 to 1000 yards. I know the 308's trajectory and wind drift like the back of my hand, and that builds confidence.

If you want to hunt with a 300 mag. that is fine. It is a great round that hits hard. But the 308 will work just fine as well.

May I be half the man my grandson thinks I am....RiverRat

http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html

It's a "shocking" read if you have time.

RiverRat

Thanks for your reply!

My posts were intended to raise some hair! I am having a little fun with the 308 shooters.

There is nothing wrong with the 308 or those that shoot it.
My point is that sometimes a magnum is the (slightly) better choice.

I will admit that 95% of the shots taken do not require more than a 308.

There I said it!

Jamie

DigitalDan

Thanks for the Mindsprings site - very interesting stuff

x-man:
Glad you had some fun with this. Yeah bad mouthing the 308 did get my hair up. I won't argue for one second that the 300 mag's shoot flatter and hit harder. Use them if that is what you want. I just don't need them for hunting where I hunt. After shooting a 260 Rem. this past year in 1000 yard F class competition, I am growing real fond of it. I think enough of it that I had a 260 Rem. built to hunt with. Killed a pretty good boar with that 260 Rem. in Alabama 2 months ago. Matter of fact that is first animal larger than a coyote that I have ever shot with something besides a 308 Win. Matter of fact I have probably killed better than 90% of my coyotes with a 308 and a 125 gr. Ballistic Tip or a 125 gr. TNT.

Good natured disagreement is what keeps this site going. Again glad you had some fun. So did I if the truth be told about it!

RiverRat