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| Re: "Magnum" myth's and hype-American Hunter Mag. | Login/Join |
| one of us |
First off my largest deer was killed with a 30-30 and the greatest number of my deer were taken with a 300 savage. Most of my elk were killed with a 3006 and Nosler Partitions. I have only shot two deer with a magnum. Jon's article was talking mainly about deer sized game. When the talk goes to elk I will grab a magnum first every time. A 300 win definatly hits an elk much harder than a 3006. In brushy steep country take out a shoulder and if its still on its feet hammer it again. Not very politically correct, but I hate chasing animals down into hell holes. We can all put a bullet in the right spot. Its about putting it down quick. With elk a magnum can be justified. With deer, do it if you want to, but you probibly don't really need to. | ||
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I enjoyed reading John Barness's article in the latest American Hunter. He illustrates the differences(real world) in standard calibers(30.06, 270) vs. 300 weatherby magnum, 270 WSM etc. I would enjoy a discussion on this. I have 1 rifle, a .308. Most people I tell ask me why I got a .308, why not a 7 mag or 300 win mag etc. It is refreshing to read an article that seems well written and researched on "why" I bought a .308. | |||
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haven't read the article yet, but it sounds like just what the doctor ordered! as the owner of a .308, 7x57 and .30/30, i couldn't be happier! | |||
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I've been telling my buddies for years that a faster muzzle velocity gets you a few more point blank yards- but surprisingly few. After that you'd better know your holdover no matter how much horsepower you have. As far as terminal ballistics go, I think bullet choice is far more important than a little extra impact velocity. (But I still love the .300 Win......  ) | |||
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Too many people who have never realy done much hunting argue about the virtues of this caliber versus that caliber at 500 yards. Having done a lot of target shooting at 300-600 yards, I'm here to tell you it's not easy! Let alone on game animals. Most hunting is done at 100-200 yards. Hitting stuff beyond 300 yards is difficult and rare. I like to be efficient (read deadly) out to 250 yards. Yes, I've shot prarrie dogs out to 450 yards, but I did as much missing as hitting out at that range due to wind and range estimation. | |||
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Well...I'll take the bait on that one! Lets compare the 30-378 and the 308 Winchester with 200gr. bullets both zeroed 3 inches high at 100 yards for fun! We are hunting moose! The 308 pushes the 200gr. 2400 fps is zeroed at 200, down -11 inches at 300, and plummets to -31 inches at 400. The 30-378 pushes the 200gr. 3300 fps. is zeroed at 300, down -8 at 400 and -22 at 500 yards. Inside 200 yards there is no gain for the magnum but beyond that it's another story. The magnum has a shorter time of flight, less wind drift, higher impact velocity, and a flatter trajectory at 400 yards than the 308 has at 300 yards. For a good shooter in reasonable conditions a 300 yard shot is a chip shot for the magnum...not so for the (how much is 11 inches?)308! I know I am comparing extremes and I am not advocating that everyone run out and buy a monster magnum but a 300 Win. seems a hell of a lot better all around choice than a 308 to me.  Magnums are not for everyone everywhere but they do have their place. Jamie | |||
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I do use have the opinon that one caliber was the end all. Maybe that is why I own a bunch of 06's But now that I can afford more and have tryed others there are ones that work just as well, ones that give more punch ect. I find that people who do not have more then one caliber make do with with it. Then try and convince others that it is the only thing going. Is one cailiber better then the next depends on what you are trying to do. I personaly enjoy shooting them all. | |||
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If you refuse to shoot beyond say 300 yards the standard calibers are fine. I dont like to take a long poke, but sometimes I've had to. Those few times I was glad I was using a .300 Weatherby. The .300 Magnums, I think, are a bit more versitile. | |||
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I have shot alot of deer w/ a 30/30 and a 30-06 over the years and I still take them to the field now and then. When I got into the Magnum craze, I decided to go "Magnum" from then on. W/ a 30-06 or 30/30 the animals would not act like they were hit and they would run a good bit after impact. When switching to magnums, they drop on the spot. If they get up they usually dont get more than 25 yards. I shot a 240# and a 220# whitetail this past season w/ hot 7 mm Mag loads, one made it 20 yards and one made it 25 yards. I shot some w/ my 30/06 also, same bullet design but, slower velocity. The 30/06 deer ran over 150 yards. When using the 30/30, I find it best to try and break their shoulders. It sure is nice when you dont have to hold over out to 300-350 yards. Magnums kill faster and more ethically due to their high velocity and massive wound channels. Now, some people shoot bullets that barely expand, that is another story on wounds. I would rather shoot a deer w/ a 30/30 SP than shoot one w/ a Win Failsafe or Barnes X out of a Magnum. Im not trying to get all of you flustered, I am just stating the results I have gathered from dozens of kills w/ each cart. Most people that bash "Magnum Hunters" have never tried them theirselves. In my opinion, they have no room to talk. Reloader | |||
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ALL i ask is that you read the article in this month's american hunter. Hopefully, you get American Hunter because you are members of the NRA. I am not trying to make a case against "Magnums" and believe you would have to read the article to truly understan what I am talking about. | |||
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Here's my favorite magnum story. Visiting a Louisiana gunshop during deer season, I asked the dealer how business was. I expected him to say gun sales were low but ammo sales and gunsmith services were up. His reply was that they were selling magnum rifles like crazy, couldn't keep a 7mm in stock. Hunters had been going out and missing so thier solution was to get a bigger gun. | |||
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Had an interesting discussion with a good friend last winter.He showed me 4 180 gr. .308 caliber bullets that he recovered from elk.He asked me to pick which ones came from his .300 Win Mag. and which ones came from his wifes .308.I couldn't tell the difference.All 4 were nice little mushrooms(Hornady Interlocks) found on the off shoulder,under the skin.All the elk were shot at less than 250 yds.He now has a .308,sold his .300 Win Mag.His .308's are more accurate and not nearly as punishing.Just bought 2 .308 bolt guns this spring myself. | |||
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I've shot many deer most with magnums, but I've taken quite a few with .243, .22-250, .270, bow, etc. I prefer to take double lungs. I have had only 3 deer go more than 100 yards. One was a double lung shot with a 300 Win Mag with 180 Gr. Hornady, one broke a front leg with a 7 MM Mag, and the other was one I shot with a bow that was not recovered. I took 2 deer last year with the .270 at long distance and neither went over 20 yds. My wife took a huge buck with her 30-06; it was shot badly and had to be shot again but still went less than 40 yds. | |||
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SAKO75 ----- It all depends on the shooter and whether he can handle the Magnum or not. I have a 30-30 and still hunt with it, hunted with a BLR .308 for deer for years and loved it. I have an old Elk hunting buddy who hunts with a .270 Win and gets his Elk every year without fail, but never shoots beyond his capabalities and on occasion will say, that is your shot not mine. When I started hunting Colorado and Alaska I stepped up to the Magnums, starting with a .300 Win mag and moving on to .340 Wby and .358 STA, after a tramatic Bear encounter. ----- Here is the deal, if you are going to shoot the Magnums, shoot the hell out of them in preparation and if you can't handle them, stay away. I shoot .257 Wby, 7mm STW, .300 Win mag, .340 Wby, .358 STA, .416 Rem, .416 Rigby, and shoot them three days a week weather permitting. This past season in Colorado that 250 yard shot up a mountain with a 270 grain .358 caliber bullet at 2900 fps was no problem when the shot presented itself. My 14 year old grandson shot his Elk with a .338 Lapua using a 240 grain North Fork bullet at 3100 fps, hitting his target perfectly at 175 yards, this after weeks of practice. ----- The hunter that shoots the magnums enough to become instinctive in their use are awesome killers of game, if you can't handle the magnums efficiently, use the non-magnums be it .308 , 30-06, or .270 and don't take any gruff from anybody.  Good luck and good shooting. | |||
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Aganist my better judgement I will jump into the "snake pit" I read the article twice last night. I think he was just saying that for most real world situatiions a magnum isn't necessary but for those special circumstances it might be. My pockets aren't deep enough to be a world wide hunter. So I would probably have to agree that 300 yds and under you can do quite well without a mangum. I have persionally seen the magnums fail miserably at close range on bears,deer And hogs. Many times they just make surface wounds. But,at really long range over 350 yds they work wonders. My hunting territory is usually very thick except for the north Mo. grainfields and even there shots are usually under 300 yds. I shoot a .358 win for bears I've alkso used the .350 rem and others. I keep coming back to the .358 because it's shootable, easy to controll and puts them down just as well as a .350 Rem. 35 whelen or 45-70. The blr81 is shot fast and easy to handle in a tree. One more thing. I don't know what kind of beer that guy is shooting with an o6 But I have just the opposite experience. I've shot over a 100 deer with an o6,270,.308 win. 7x57, .243 .257 Roberts etc. and I have never, never, had one run more than 40 feet ! So I guess I've been lucky for the past 50 yrs. I don't use any premium bullets either Most people use too heavy a bullet for deer, I always read about guys using 180 grain bullets in an 06. Go lighter and put the bullet in the right place ! | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, Unless one is likely to have no choice but to shoot at game animals past 300 yards, there is really no need for the big case magnums. They certainly come in handy when lesser calibers make it difficult to hit something which you cannot guess the range of very accurately. This is the important part. Most people are very bad at estimating distances past 200 yards. One is more liley to hit the animal at the longer distances than he is with the slower bullets. | |||
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Quote: Now, perhaps you are a subsistance hunter and you were faced with starvation, but in all likelyhood, you never HAD to take a "long poke". That you CHOSE to take a "long poke" rather than not shoot, I would readily believe. It's a retorical question, but let's say I showed up with a $20 bill at the local range the weekend before opening day of deer season. And let's say, I would offer it to any hunter that could hit a 8" paper plate at "around 350 yards" from an improvised field position. With no more than 20 seconds "getting ready" time. How many of those hunters would it take before I was $20 poorer? A competitive shooter would take my money every time, but I'll go out on a limb and say I could give five to one odds to the average hunter-shooter, and still come out ahead. Trajectory is fine and dandy, but wind drift, change of POI due to position, actual vs "book trajectory", and aiming error ("magnum flinch") will cause an awful lot of misses. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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Have not read the article but I hunt with a 30-06, 7mm-08, and 300 Savage and do not see myself stepping up to a magnum. These rounds have proven very effective for over 20 years. Never had a deer go over 50 yards and normally they fall within 30 yards. And they all definately reacted to the hit. I have no problem with people that want to shoot magnums. They are just not my style. For out to 300 yards, which is a very long way under hunting conditions, I can use my standard rounds quite well. 8-9 inches drop is not all that much or that dificult to judge. And normally I pass at that range and prefer to let the m get closer. Two years ago I hunted with the 300 Savage and had 5 deer walk out at 225 yards. They were feeding in a green field. I just let them feed. Over the course of 1.5 hours they moved my way and I shot a mediumish 5 point (4X1) at less than 30 feet from my tree. He kicked so high I thought he was going to do a sommersault. But that is just me. | |||
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SAKO75, Yes...it is "refreshing" for someone in a position of credibility (in this case a hunting rag writer) to confirm something that you have believed to be true all along. JB is one of the better writers today as his style offers a rather humble explaination yet gets to the point with a good mix of humor and fact. His is not a take-it-or-leave-it style; it is not esoteric in any fashion. Of course, this is my opinion (which will probably be divided 50/50 by future posters that read same.) It's going to be that way with your post also...hell, it already is! No problem though. I am one that believes in the proper tool for the job. I once hit my 5 iron 225 yards tight to a pin after I blew the 3 wood drive. I have golfed for 25 years, yet I realize that just because I did it once doesn't elevate it to 2 iron status for me. Au'contraire (my French sucks  ,) it stays in the bag until I have a 175 to 180 yard approach. Same way with rifles...same way with hunting areas...they are all different and varied. In my mind (as a hunter first and foremost,) show me a man that makes the right shot the first time and I'm impressed. I don't care if it's 50 yards or 350 yards. Anything else is, well, unimpressive. To me, the "doing" is all the "telling" I want to hear. The correct tool for the job is always the better choice.best, bhtr p.s. My go-to rifle is a .338 Winny | |||
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I'd like to jump on Saeed and Dutch's bandwagon. Much beyond 200 yards, most shots become "poke and hopes". (I'm not interested in getting flamed by all you hot shots that-in cyberspace- can hit an elk in the eye at a "lasered" distance of several miles) A magnum and the magnum hype tempts the shooter into trying shots he's not capable of. He thinks he has that magic rifle and that magic bullet that will overcome his shortcomings. Unfortunately, it ain't so. Just like the bad targets that he leaves at the range, he doesn't tell about the shots that he has missed but if he does scratch down a quarry, he becomes really hard to live with.  "for a good shooter under good conditions, 300 yards is a chip shot." Sure its a chip shot with a 300wm, and a .308, 22-250. etc. If you're shooting at paper. Try it with a bull elk in dark timber or an antelope playing "peek-a-boo" in the Wy badlands with a swirling 30mph wind. FYI, I don't know if they still do it or not, but the Army rifle teams used to use .308's in the 1000 yard matches. Don't get me wrong, I've a closet full of magnums. And they definitely have their place. As originally intended, the magnum was to send a greater weight of metal downrange at a still letal velocity: 2400-2900fps. Thus I can't understand why someone would shoot a 150gr bullet from a 300WM nor a 140gr bullet from a 7RM. I guess in the moose example, the fellow with the .308 would just have to get off his lazy ass (or, shudder, out of sight of his suv) and get some closer. I've never shot a moose but I would imagine a 200gr bullet @ 2400fps would be some fine moose medicine. I do know a 200gr bullet from a 30-06 @ 2500fps will wear an elk out in a hurry. From what I read, the cover a moose frequents doesn't lend itself to 400 yard shots so that point becomes moot and I have never shot an elk at much beyond 100 yards. (I was using a magnum most of the time though) | |||
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I hate two disagree but I have shot a few past the two hundred mark with the .270 and the .300 Mag.With a good rest and scope it's not that hard to hit the kill zone.I saw one Bull shot at 425 stepped off yards on the second shot with the first falling low just under and behind the leg.The second put him down.Granted if I can't get a good rest I probably wouldn't take the shot.I personally believe the .300 really starts to shine over the 30-06 at 200+ yards from what I have seen. Just my opinion.Jayco. | |||
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Jayco, from your post, I can draw no other conclusion than that 50% is an acceptable hit percentage for you. Is it? I wonder, out loud, what percentage of wounded animals that correlates to? FWIW, Dutch. | |||
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Dutch-Once again haveing been out of school and working in the woods for so long I guess I didn't put it down right.There has never been an Elk get away after being shot.I guess that came from the 425 yard shot?The first missed and the second put it down and it was my dad and his .270 on a trotting Bull.We have done some tracking as most have but have never lost one. I do alot of my off hunting time shooting in the hills just above town at uphill and downhill targets and in places I saw them at a distance.I passed a 390 Lazered yard shot at a huge Bull because of the angle but went back the following year and placed a target in the exact spot and shot.It would have been achievable with a better angle. Sorry for the incomplete post.Only been trying to put my thoughts down on the internet for a short while.Never used a computer until 54 years old. Good luck.Jayco. | |||
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Quote: I think Phurley got it right, if you train enough to become proficient, nothing wrong with a magnum. But be honest to yourself, and if you can't handle the recoil, get the job done with a smaller caliber. Myself, I rarely shoot my magnums these days, so I guess I fall into the category of "better stay with a standard cartridge", nothing wrong with that either. - mike | |||
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Quote: I think you got it right enough the first time. Trotting at ~425 yards??? | |||
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mho and phurley, You definitely got that right, if you can handle a magnum, why not? I have some magnums that have less recoil than my standard cal. wood stocked rifles. W/ the proper stock and optics to acheive a well balanced rifle, recoil is very mild in Magnum cals. I once sighted-in a .308 for a fellow and that little dude held its own in the "kick" department. I have also shot some 30-06s that would stand firm against the recoil of a Synthetic stocked 300 win model 700. Weatherby has pretty well balanced magnums that have mild recoil. The 30-378 and 300 Wby mags w/ accu brakes kick far less than a standard cal w/o a brake but, you better have some good hearing protection. Most people I have seen that couldn't shoot a magnum were more scared of the loud boom more than recoil. It seems that anticipation of the loud boom would cause them to flench. My wife can shoot a rifle pretty good for an average lady but, she refuses to shoot my mags because of the sound and Muzzle flash. You guys are right, in the hands of a man that can handle it, the mags are a lethal combo. Reloader | |||
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Jayco, I'm certainly not trying to whiz in your wheaties, but you describe, very well indeed, an event where there were two shots, and one miss. That's a 50% hit percentage. In my opinion, that means you got lucky twice: the first shot being a clean miss, the second being a clean kill. In my $20 at the range example, you would not have gotten the $20, either. The way I look at it, the average of those two lucky shots would have been a wounded elk. I commend you for practicing long range. In this case it underlines the point: such long shots are low percentage, even for those who practice under field conditions. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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Dutch, Not trying to rag ya in any way but, if you showed up at some of the ranges here, you would need alot of 20 dollar bills.  You are right, most cant shoot that far at all but, those guys that can get descent groups at 300 would hit the ole' pie plate just about every time. | |||
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Dutch-Well as I said it wasn't me that took the shot.Growing up a military brat there was a group of guy's that were elite marksman and each year they were after the ultimate shot.Getting an Elk was never a problem where we packed into.One sold his 300 H&H and bought a 22-.250 for Elk.Head shots and he scored more than not with know lost game.These guys were the best of the best in the military and got board at the usual target practice.I certainly learned alot and had know control over there shots.But they never missed a standing or walking target reguardless of the distance.Would we have lost that Elk?Not a chance in hell with two others there and plenty of time for follow up shots.These guys were just good.The normal hunter would not take a shot like that but some are more than capeable of doing so.I know a Seal Sniper in Coeurdalene Idaho who could easily do the same.Some guys are just naturally good shots and others have to work at it. My hat is off to them that can. Jayco. | |||
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I am staying out of this one. I sure hope Jon A reads my post on this thread, if he is still around. I got my tail feathers plucked a lot on this subject or similar to it when I got on this board last year. As far as range results, I am a fairly good shooter, but I just want to be a fly on the wall and watch. As I always say about my local range, ( which is very well organized and quite a big range) I can out shoot about 90 % of all the guys that show up at that range. However the 10 % that out shoot me,..... well it is down right embarrassing. Cheers and good shooting Seafire | |||
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Let's see, for 30 caliber I have: 300 Sherwood- 19th C. Martini - not really for big game 300 Savage- Remington Model 8 - open sights so short range only for me. 308 - Ruger 77 RSI- 1.5-4.5 Burris - superb light/short/handy brush gun - shoots 150 gr. bullets under 1" all day. 30'06 - Gr. III Bar - 3-9 Nikon -for when I want to look pretty in the woods- shoots 180 gr. bullets into just a hair over 1". I use this mostly when stand hunting as I feel bad when I drag it through the brush. 300 Win Mag - BLR, 4-12 Leupold - likes to shoot 165 gr. bullets into about 1" groups. I use this when hunting in open places where shots out to 275 yds are expected. The magnum definately has a place in a battery, I've got larger and smaller in magnum and non-magnum. For big game I can choose 7mm Mauser to 458 Win., just depends on the circumstances. I know there are lots of people that shoot everything with one gun but these work for me. | |||
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Ok. I'll bite on this. I shoot both, mags & more std. carts. The mag does extend the range a bit, just because it can deliver the same or one weight up bullet w/ more vel. for a bit better terminal perf. I have never taken a shot @ a big game animal much past 325yds, but I do practice out to 400yds. There are times when you just can't get any closer, so you let the animal go or get into a good rest & take your shot. It's not a "poke & hope" but for someone who knows his rifle & practices, it can be done w/o a miss & cripple. BTW, my field limit is this side of 400yds, so if he an elk was 500 & across a canyon, I'll pass (actually have passed) the shot. | |||
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It comes from all the Gun and Hunting Magazines. I stopped buying the Gun Magazines a long time ago. Why should I listen to someone about the latest whizbang Magnum that can shoot three quarters of a mile at an Elk or Deer. No need to stalk an animal anymore. I bet they work for Remington, Winchester, Browning and Lazzoroni on the side. They also told us that we need a scope as big as Schmidt Casegrain Telescope, ( Seven monthly payments of 149.99 $ ) and you will have the scope payed off. Make sure you pick up that brass, It�s expensive also. Remember the Real hunting stories of Outdoor Life back in the 50s and 60s? They didn�t even mention the Rifle, clothes, or brand of boots they used, Maybe the rifle was at the very end of the story. What do I use ? A Ruger 77 ultra light in 308 and a 30-30 Win. I bet that if the price of powder and bullets go off the chart as they have in the UK and Canada. All those whizbang Mags will be on gunsamerica for sale and the 270, 30-06 will be the cartridges of choice. Better start stocking up now. PS. How many rounds of a Lazzeroni 7.21 FireHalk or 7.82 WarBird can a pound of powder make ,25 or so ? | |||
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I fell for the magnum talk long ago and have had one since 1961. There was never really any use for them however as I always seemed to be in some forest or the other. Last fall I was checking out an area we had not hunted for quite a few years. I got permission and by the time I finished gabbing about hunting, cows and trucks it was late. I was about three hours from home and it would be dark in an hour. I just walked out into the meadow that I already knew quite well with my new lightweight 7mm-08, binoculars and range finder. I had not gone far and there was a doe about 200 yds away watching me. I looked up the valley and spotted something that seemed to be moving. It might have been a flock of turkeys or maybe a cow. The laser gave one flash at 1200 yds +. I kept trying to make it out with the Leu 8X42's. Finally I concluded that it was a bear getting the last rays of sun at the edge of a field. I had not even put my boots on! So I went back to the car to do that and to get more ammo. The only other gun in the car was a drilling in 8-57JR. It was getting dark and I headed right at the bear as fast as I could walk along the edge of the field. I got to 500 yds and had made up my mind that it was too far for that rifle. I did have the drop data from PointBlank in my pocket along with the laser. I figured that if I could get to 300 yds I would shoot. There was just not enough time to go up on the hillside and walk thru the woods to conceal my stalk. The bear spotted me at 400 yds! I went home with no shot. I went back with a 300 H&H M70 and a 7mm WSM and spent quite a bit of time there the next few days but the bear never showed again. For woods hunting magnums are a disadvantage for Eastern game like that due to the weight of the rifles. For that fall scouting trip one would have been the right rifle. | |||
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I feel that the average magnum toter would probably be better off with a standard caliber. There are surely many shooters who can handle the recoil and can put the extra range to good use, but I'd bet that the number was pretty small. Probably less than 50%. Have a few 10" plates at my home range and even from the bench, from nice bags and a decent front rest more than 50% of my local Yahoos can't hit my 250 yd plate. Yet they will blaze away at game at twice that distance. And from sitting,prone or kneeling even the 100 yd plate is generally safe 50% of the time. Sad. My favorite magnum-mania story. You John Barsness readers may recall that John plugs Capital sports gun shop in Helena a lot as well as a mutual buddy; Tom Brownlee. Five years ago I stopped in Capital the Friday evening before Sunday big game opener. Tom was bringing a Wby .30-378 Accumark out of "Lay-Away" for a guy. The new Wby owner is showing anyone who will look a .30-.378 round from his new box of ammo. He is spouting the velocity with a 165 gr bullet,flatness of trajectory,etc. As well as how this rifle would allow him to not have to pass up those "cross canyon shots" anymore. I notice that the gun is sporting a $29.99 Bushnell in even cheaper Jap rings!!! He asks if it was boresighted and Tom stated it had been, but then went on to explain the Gent needed to properly sight it in, etc. Seems that after buying his $60 per box Wby ammo that was ALL the scope he could afford. The guy left and I have wondered just how many rds until the scope failed and how many animals he wounded with that rig? My two magnums are both of the H&H variety, a pair of .300's and a .375 . I've owned a few others but as time goes on and I get more and more seasons under my belt I've found out that sometimes Less is More. My .280 Rem , .338-06 and the wifes 7mm-08 seem to get the most time afield. FN in MT | |||
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When I finally found it in my budget to upgrade my old Mauser 98 (.280), I thought long and hard about what to get. Basically I knew this would be the only rifle I would be able to buy for a long time, and it had to be able to handle any and all N. American hunting I would do in my forseeable future. Under those circumstances, when a guy doesn't have a 'battery' of rifles to pick and choose from, a 'medium range' magnum like the 300WSM I picked is a good choice. An arguement that a 30-378 or 300 Ultra might be too much has validity, as does the argument for a '06, but none of that makes the 7Mag, 300Win, all WSM, all SAUM, class of magnums a BAD choice. | |||
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Reloader, you did see my "weasel clause" in my post didn't you? I'd lose my shirt on the ranges around here, too, if I showed up this time of year. The competitors and varmint hunters would have my hide. Then again, most of those guys are shooting 223 class and 308 class rounds by the bucket. Never bet against a guy that keeps his loaded ammo in two or three coffee cans....... But, the week before the season starts? Different clientele, different level of ability. Those are the shooters that don't understand there is a fundamental difference between a 150 gr. sp and an 180 gr. Partition for their 300Win. Or that you should not shoot a 300 win round in a 300Wby, not matter that they are cheaper..... JMO, Dutch. | |||
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My answer is definately "YES!" Yes, most will shoot better w/ non-mags. I have a 6.5x55, 8x57, .257 imp, .30-06., .280. Have owned .270, .30-30. Of these, the .257 is probably my favorite and has killed more game. Light recoil, very acccurate (dime size for 3 shots - featherweight barrel). Yes, Mags have their place. Have .300 Win. which I used almost exclusively in B.C. .338x.300 win. - my bear gun while living in B.C. and used to have 7mm Rem. Mag, which I wish I had back. The 7 RM had killed more game for me than all other combined. I used it for everything from ground-squirrels & wood-chucks, to deer, to Moose in B.C. (The squirrels usually only took 1 shot, but the moose took two). Its weight was low (brown precision stock), its accuracy exceptional .5 MOA (5 shots) w/ 150 balistic tips and usually 1MOA or less w/ most bulllets. It's recoil no more than an -06. Most game was killed at 200 yds or less, but on at least 4 instances it was nice to have a gun that hits hard and drops little all the way out to 400 yards. | |||
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X-man, Quote: That you compared extremes is certainly the case; not only is the .308 considered by most less than marginal for moose, the .30-378 is considered by many to be much more gun than necessary. Plus the fact you used a bullet in the .308 Win. that is almost never loaded in it. Your argument bears out the article in one respect (and to which I agree) if you're going to expand your shot range over standard calibers to any substantial degree with a magnum you had better take a large leap up in case capacity/bore ratio..... To me the usefulness of magnums is the ability to fire heavier bullets (for complete penetration at deep angles) at reasonable velocites- not to necessarily have flat trajectories. The drop charts I can memorize, it's range estimation and conditions downrange that are the bugaboo. The beauty of my philosophy is the trajectories for the magnums become similar to the standard calibers, the payload is just bigger. This allows a shooter to operate on just one basic set of drop charts for all big game field shooting with medium bores, magnum or standard, with only a little tweaking here and there. For the sake of this discussion there's no point in pretending the ranges are known exactly. The question is at what ranges will the magnum compensate sufficiently for error? If you know your range estimation may be off even just 10% (and that is almost superhuman) then the shot at 500yds becomes questionable even with the .30-378 and a target the size of moose. Check the 450-500 and 500-550yd drop (500 +/-10%) for the .30-378. Knowing that your holdover may be as little as about 10" or as much as about 35" at an estimated 500yds isn't much of a game plan or a confidence builder. The worse your range estimation and conditions are, and/or the more conservative the kill zone size, the shorter the range at which the shot becomes unacceptable, of course. Rangefinders take out the estimation question but not downrange conditions. I love magnums but believe their ability to overcome the physics of gravity and air resistance/deflection and compensate for shooter error (including range estimation)are vastly overrated by most. That was the gist of the article. IMO since shooter ability/error is the final limiting range factor the advantage of magnum-PBR diminishes much more quickly than ballistic charts would lead one to believe, simply because shooter error outstrips the any ballistic advantage very quickly when you approach the limits of his ability. Let's remember shooter error is not all elevation. A flatter shooting cartridge doesn't help at all with windage aiming error and at some point that alone becomes the reason for a miss whatever cartridge you're shooting. I believe that extra powder is best served getting more lead through the same air resistance for extra penetration at the target, not neccessarily a shot at a farther target. Put simply, my .300 Win allows me to take the same shot angles at larger game at the same ranges I can take those same shots at whitetails with my .308 Win. (BTW, that would be about a top-of-the-back hold on the moose.) | |||
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>>>not only is the .308 considered by most less than marginal for moose<<< this is ridiculous! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Re: "Magnum" myth's and hype-American Hunter Mag.
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