The intelligent guys picked the 338/06.
Then the good old 30/06 when the 338/06 is in the shop. Or a 270 when you want to show how more eclectic you are over an '06 owner.

But you sure have a lot of respect for the guys that are carrying the 7x57 or 6.5x55, they are the traditionalists.

When the only magnum carrying guy you don't laugh at and actually respect is carrying a 300 H&H.

When the guys you consider are the real good hunters can do it with a 300 Savage, or a 257 Roberts or even a 250 Savage because they have been shooting the same one for 40 yrs.

When you don't laugh at the guys who are out there with a 30/30, or 32 Special or even a 38/55 because that is all they can afford but you know they know how to use them, and the animal won't get away.

Those are the perfect elk & mule deer calibers, because the people shooting them know how to shoot them. and they don't need a 8.5 x 25 x 56 Leupold $2,000.00 scope to hit something.

I for one think one thing needs to be spelled out clearer. Are we talking about someone from Montana, or Oregon hunting elk in his back yard (so to speak)? Or are we talking about the Auto Zone manager from back east who has been scraping together the money to do his hunt of a lifetime? Makes one hell of a difference, my first time elk hunting was with a Win 94 in 30-30, I didn't kill anything with it but my dad took a nice spike with it. If I were on a hunt, where the possibility exsists that I may never be able to afford it again, then I will fall into the crowd of those who believe in the heaviest caliber I can shoot accurately, be a shame to be on that kind of hunt, last day, and not be able to take that 300 yard shot because you didn't bring enough gun. I hunt with priamarily two rifles, one a tough as nails Ruger Stainless Synthetic in .300 Win mag, and a Marlin Stainless Guide Gun in 45/70. Each comes into it's own depending on the terrain, for the tundra, and hunting above treeline, the .300 is magnificent, and has crushed the caribou and grizzly I shot with it, the 45/70 makes a great 200 yards and in with 420gr home cast slugs. Different strojes for different folks, I can hunt almost year round, so I have no heartburn with passing a risky shot, I know I'll have another.

I still don't go along with the argument that a hunter from the East all of a sudden needs a cannon. I see the mentality that I've spent all this money and by gum I'm going to take any shot I can because going home empty handed would be a failure. I guess when I've gone west my attitude is I'm going hunting. Most times I end up taking game, sometimes not. Never have I seen an instance where the caliber rifle I was carrying, generally a 30-06, has made any difference in that equation. I have seen instances where a hunter was carrying a brand new super magnum for those "cross canyon" shots and their unfamiliarity with their rifle has cost them game. Way more game is lost by a hunters lack of ability to shoot accurately at 100-200 yards than by the lack of a cartridge that kills like a laser at 400 IMHO. An a large portion of those long shots are purely Hail Mary's because the hunter can't get closer because they spent more time worrying about caliber than they did getting in shape.

Jeff

[ 05-30-2003, 17:47: Message edited by: Skibum ]

As I've indicated before, bullet placement and bullet construction are of paramount importance, and I'd put my money on an experienced and competent rifleman and hunter armed with a .270 WCF over a pilgrim with a .338 RUM who can't shoot and who doesn't understand elk hunting.

Even so, elk are also big and tough, and I don't believe in hunting them with pop guns no matter where they're found. I don't really buy into the "in-state/out-of-state" rifle philosophy at all. I've hunted elk in several states for thirty years, and my time is just as limited and the elk are just as wild and tough here in Oregon as they are in Idaho or Utah, and I'll always pick a rifle that I think is best up to the task no matter where I hunt elk at. The idea that you can somehow squeek by with very light cartridge simply because you're hunting at home does not mesh with my experience.

When I get a chance at a bull, I take him as I find him, and I want some decisive results when I pull the trigger. Restraint is admirable if practiced judiciously, but I've found that I seldom have time to wait for an elk to cooperatively turn into the perfect position so that I can carefully (oh so carefully!) place a bullet with benchrest precision straight through the lungs or just behind the ear or in the eye ("anywhere in the eye's fine, Son!"), etc.

The .30-06 is a sensible minimum for elk, and the "regular" .300s and .338s are better yet with good bullets. Gunwriters used to play this game of "how low can you go" or something like that when it came to cartridge selection for elk, and I'm not quite sure why, but I don't quite agree.

AD

[ 05-30-2003, 20:54: Message edited by: allen day ]

You can for sure put me in the place all shots accurately category. I also was not trying to say that the Easterner needs to go buy a magnum, it is my choice simply because it is what I have shot the most. I started seriously hunting elk in Eastern Oregon back in the early 80's, with a Remington M700 30'06, worked just fine then, as it would now. I moved to a 300 Winchester, simply because my Grandad reloaded more of them than anything else, I eventually bought my own. I also have nothing against the man that goes out and buys a .338 for his much anticipated hunt, it all ends up in the memory banks as part of the experience, maybe it gives him more confidence, maybe it just makes him stinkin happy. Doesn't matter who you are or what you shoot, you should match the cartridge to the game, and you should practice at the ranges you think you will be shooting, whether it be 100, or 500 yards. I know with a good rest, and minimal wind, I can hit a broadside elk, or moose at ranges exceeding 400 yards, I know this because I practice at those ranges, hell I will even shoot at my 22-250 prairie dog targets at that range just for the hell of it, doesn't hurt, makes for a big confidence builder. Nothing wrong with buying a new gun, as long as you plan to be familiar with it before you go hunting. I would go as far as to say, if I bought a new 300, and had a 270, or '06, I would bring it too, just incase.

I guess I'll say the standard 280 shooting 150 gr Nosler parts. I have shot deer at, well let's say long range and Elk at well lets say long range.

I just don't get this "I'll take a crappy shot because I'm only gonna hunt them once or twice" mindset. Shooting at quartering elk (or poor shot presentation) at 400+ yards with any gun is plain selfish. People who try to "get one in him" tend to just be trigger pullers.

To all who think they need a bigger Gun to hunt elk, Or the 'Bigger the Better' Crowd.

A good friend of mine moved to Oregon from Hawaii 4 or 5 years ago. Each year he hunts elk like his family is being held hostage at home and if he does not get one then they are going to be killed. He is that fanatical.

He came to Oregon with a 270 he used in Hawaii on the Big Island to take sheep and hogs with.
He is a good shooter with it.

His first year he had a herd go within 50 yrds of him and got buck fever. So next year open morning he had to be right in that spot.

However after talking "Elk Hunting' with a lot of people, he was convinced by them that anything smaller than a 300 Mag is only a weapon to wound them with.

So opening morning he is out in the spot he has seen Elk on. He must have put 50,000 miles on his truck scouting half the Cascades for elk.
In Oregon you do not have to wear orange, so he is in Camo'ed up like he is a sniper in enemy territory.

He has with him, his new Savage with Black Synthetic Stock in 300 Winchester ready to go. On top of it is a 6 x 18 x 50 Bushnell Scope ( even tho we are hunting in timber).

A large bull comes and lays down about 100 yds away from were he is, but he had a clear shot at it by just turning around. He slowly turns around and the bull never seems to see him. He slow lifts his rifle and puts the cross hairs right on the spot that all the books have told him to do.

Although he has blown off a hundred plus rounds at the range, making sure he has his zero on the rifle scope, by his own admission:
He "recoiled' the gun, pulled the trigger and watched the elk get up and trot off. He figures by his dramatic flinch, that he was 100 yds from the elk, but the bullet must have been 150 yds over the elks head he had flinched so bad.

If you are going to carry it out hunting, make sure you can shoot it first. And not just off of the bench. And to a lot of guys this means skip a magnum. And never knock a guy who carries a 243 elk hunting if he can shoot it.
The elk are going to be less likely to be wounded if he knows what he is doing, than their chances of being wounded by the guy carrying the 400 or 500 Weatherby/Winchester UlraMag because this is his one in a lifetime hunt.

Yeah, some people may only get one or two chances in a lifetime and have to pay a lot of money they saved up to be able to do so. However hunting is not a contract guarantee.
You may not get one, but then again that is why it is called hunting.

Do people back east or in California think we "locals" never skunk in Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona or Washington?

To tell you the truth if you want to see a lot of Elk in Oregon; and I mean really big bulls??
Go deer hunting, when it is not elk season.
Want to see some really impressive deer racks, bring your camera when it is Elk season.
Come season, they are all on vacation.

You can use what ever you want, but my 7 mag does it all pretty darn good. There are a whole bunch of 7 mag shooters that are laughing at this "you gotta have" a 500 wizbang thread.

358 Norma 250 Speer 2900 fps

Seafire

This is addressed to you. I get dissapointed when I read some, not all of your posts. You seem to have a big problem with magnums, and people who shoot them. Even though you own a few by your own admittance. If you choose not to hunt deer or elk with them, that is your own choice, respect the rights and opinions of others. You continually laugh and scoff at other hunters and shooters who do. You tell stories of people you hunt with or hear of that make mistakes in a hunting situation. Instead of condemning the magnums, why don't you teach these people something about shooting and how not to flinch. Most people flinch from shooting a magnum when you first start shooting them, they have trememdous recoil. Have you ever looked at recoil charts, the 30/06 with a 220 grain bullet kicks as much has a 300 Win. Mag with a 180 grain bullet. You say you sight guns in at the range, when the guys with them can't. You are actually sighting it in for youself, not them. Dead on at 100 yds, come on, don't bother to teach them anything about ballistics, ask them the range they might be shooting at, etc., etc. I am not going to debate shooting subjects with anyone, we all make are own choices for whatever reason. That doesn't make anyone stupid, just inexperienced. You cut down large scopes because you believe 4x is enough, but you have 3x9 mounted on one of your guns. What is the nine power for, a possible long shot? I immediately knew when i got to your post something negative would be said about magnums. From reading all of the post, there is alot of knowledge and experience out there that humbles me most of the time. On page 3 of 300 Win Mag for deer you didn't reply to my last comment, why not? I understand about all of the jerks and idiots out there that don't take the time and effort to learn anything, but that doesn't make everyone who shoots a magnum one. I shoot my 300 Win. Mag very well, no brag just fact, and anyone who doesn't think so, are welcome to come and see me shoot at my home in Colorado. You seem to have alot of experience and many years of hunting, but have become hard over magmums. There will always be those who don't give a damn and make the rest of us look bad. Just keep dazzling them with you expertise and teach them something instead. No response is required, I just had to get a few things off my chest in regard to your replies. I'll rephrase my last comment on the last post you didn't respond too. A good rifle, along with good shooting, makes for great hunting. And I thank the rest of you for all the info, comments, and stories.

My son will be packing a .308 ruger compact for WY. mule deer & CO. Elk this year. I will be shooting my Tikka .338.

Just for public information. I apologize for not seeing a post to me from HuntorDiehunting from Colorado. I have sent him a person email responding to his questions to me.

I am continually trying to point out, and people do not seem to get this point. I do not have a problem with Magnums. I just feel many people who carry them do not have the ability to use them or the understanding of just what a magnum is for. Most seem to think it is just put the cross hairs on the target and pull the trigger.

Any RESPONSIBLE rifleman knows this is not the case. Too many people who carry them are not experienced enough to handle them, and never get someone else to help them learn to shoot them. Many just get fed up and trade them in before they get enough experience to handle them. I also ASSUME THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD. MOST HAVE PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE. Most can shoot as well, be it a 223 or a 338 Ultra Mag. ANYONE WANT TO ARGUE THAT POINT???????

Anyone who makes the claim that they have not seen many people with a magnum that can't handle it, simply are not spending much field time where they see other shooters. Or else they live in Alaska or the Yukon or something. then they are truly not necessarily seeiing other shooters.

My BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH MAGNUM OWNERS WHO CAN'T SHOOT THEM: when they miss, do they know where their bullet is going?? Most times they don't think about it, or say that there is plenty of woods and they are not going to hit anyone.
ANY ONE IN HERE FEEL SAFE HUNTING IN AN AREA WHERE PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING BUT MISSING THEIR TARGETS????? any arguments on that Point???
Regardless of caliber??

Another point that I will make and have not made in the past on the subject. Many of the guys I see who buy a new magnum (and have no experience with it)also put a decent scope on it. However, they usually think all that needs to be done now is just put the cross hairs on it, and pull the trigger. The bullet will be so flat shooting that you will hit anything in between you and the cross hairs.

You start to explain trajectory to these folks as you help them out and then start showing them the adjustments on their scopes and how to see your zero for 200-300-400-500 yds, and they are just amazed. The guy down at Walmart did not explain that to them at all. ( because he did not know in most cases).

Any adult in here, that would buy their 16 yr old who just got his license a car with 500 horsepower? Probably not. Why? Because the kid does not have enough experience with it to be responsible and not hurt himself or someone else.

Just because someone is an adult does NOT mean that they have the experience and have developed the responsibility to use a magnum.

I don't include 7 mags or down with this as their kick is handelable by most shooters. A 300 though has a major increase in kick.

I own over 50 firearms. This gives me the luxury of being able to pick what firearm I want to use for the job at hand. I also handload, so it gives me about an ammo combo for whatever I may choose, HOT loaded or light.

However, If I had to zero my choice down to one,
First I would conclude that I don't have any plans to go to Alaska to hunt Brown Bears or Polar Bears. Secondly, I have enough confidence in my shooting ability, that I don't need a magnum for Elk, or moose if I ever go and do that. I have the abilty to hit a target at 400 and 500 yds, but it does not mean I am still going to take that shot. I am going to be asking myself of where will that bullet go if I do miss? I feel that is a responsibility that all of us hunters have, and condemn me or not, but I practice what I preach.

If there is any magnum shooter ( 300 or above) that does not think that they can not hit the target with a lesser round, then feel free to publicly tell us. I DON'T THINK WE WILL GET MANY REPLIES TO THAT ONE.

It is not the round, It is YOUR shooting ability.
Is there anyone in here, who can tell me that they have never seen a person CARRYING A 300 MAG
WHO COULD NOT SHOOT IT, AND HIT SQUAT????

Is there anyone in here, that can tell me that they have seen a greater percentage of people carrying smaller calibers that fit into that boat? Can't hit squat?

MOST of you people can shoot! A lot of others out there are not as good as you, because they are not as avid as most people are on here. People on here talk and breathe shooting and hunting. Many of the Mag crowd I knock, are the type that after the rifle is zeroed, three boxes of ammo will last them the next 10 years. I can safely assume no regulars on this board also are part of that crowd. IF I AM WRONG PLEASE LET US ALL KNOW.

To some people on here, I just seem can't seem to get the point across. I am not asking anyone to agree with it, it is just my perspective. I am sure no one has gone out and trashed the rifle because of someone else on this board disagreeing with their choice.

Some one explain me the logic in this:

If someone as experienced as Mr. Ray Atkinson on this board can take elk , and has, with a 25/35 or a 250 Savage, then why is that some one from Michigan or Ohio or New York or any where else, needs to have a 338/378 or a 338 Ultra Mag to do the same job?? Does Mr. Atkinson just know where all the 'thin skinned' elk hang out??? Or does he just shoot the hemophilliac ones ( the ones who bleed easily).

It is shot placement people. That comes from being able to shoot your firearm. That comes from experience and experiences also teaches you the responsibility that comes with hunting.
ANYONE WHO DOES NOT FALL INTO THAT CLASS, CAN FEEL TO TELL ME WHAT AN IDIOT I AM, AND WHAT A CLOWN OR ASS I AM BECAUSE I THINK THEY NEED SOMETHING SMALLER THAN THEIR WHATEVERHUNDRED MAG.

You are giving the impression that all of the incompetent shooters out there shoot magnums.This is simply not true as a great many shoot the more common lesser powered cartridges.I personally know one individual that bore sighted his 30-30 then went hunting without sighting it in because it would be close enough and he didn't want to waste any ammo on a target.I know several who bought 30-06's because ammunition is cheaper than for most other rounds yet they think nothing of buying whatever is on sale on the way out to their hunt(without verifying their sight in) and never bother to practise because it is a waste of money.I know of 303 owners that sight in with surplus steel jacket ammunition and have never shot a softpoint at a target.The worst shooters at the range always seem to be the ones that don't practise reguardless of the cartridge they shoot.The most common excuse is that it costs money to practise.
In case you haven't noticed there is a common factor in every one of these situations and it has nothing to do with the cartridge that is being used.Rather it is that people don't prepare or practise before their hunt and it is usually because they want to save money.The funny thing is that most of these people that I know make good money.They drive 4x4 trucks and many have quads yet they try to save a few bucks on ammunition and in the end they usually miss or worse yet wound animals as a result.If you can afford a gun and the gas for your vehicle to go hunting as well as the licenses you can afford to at least sight in properly and practise enough to be competant with your gun.The best gun in this case is the one that is properly sighted in and that you are competent with reguardless of the cartridge you use.

Stubble:

You just said exactly what I said. The difference is that I am more concerned about a Mag shooter as he has even less control over where his shots go than the 30/30 guy, who is not very good with his gun. Either one can kill someone, and usually not the game they are hunting. Because of recoil the mag guy's shots go even wilder if they are not familiar with it.

They are the guys who got sold on the concept that a Whatever magnum will make them better hunters. Even tho I would not want to see it made into laws that people have to pass a proficiency test to hunt, there are a lot of guys who do go out and go hunting that are dangerous even with a Golf club.

They give the rest of us a bad name by the Anti Idiots and they are unsafe to be around.

And if people out there want to call me names for pointing out the obvious, then call me names.
Hunting and shooting carries responsibility. Not everyone with a hunting license and a firearm is responsible, plain fact. If we don't at least try to police our own ranks some, if the Anti Gun and Anti Hunting crowd prevail, then who is a responsible hunter and who is not, becomes a mute point.

How many guys who want to argue this point own a magnum? The majority I bet. No one is ragging on your caliber choice, unless you let it get away from you, and can't handle it. You probably would not be reading this board tho if that applied to you!

Seafire-I actually would like to see all hunters take both a hands on firearm safety test as well as a shooting proficiency test at least once in their life before they are allowed to hunt.It needn't be a long drawn out or complicated test just a demonstration that they can safely handle their gun and can hit a reasonably sized target at a distance of 100 yards or so. This would make hunting safer for all of use as well as prevent some wounded animals which would help keep the anti's off our backs.

[ 07-14-2003, 08:37: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I only heard one vote for the 7mm STW. This cartrige is great medicine for mule deer and elk.
My second choice would be the 300 win mag.

What ever caliber you choose, make sure you shoot often, and at different distances, to learn the trajectory of your bullet.

Fordfreak:

I don't agree with your choice in cars, or with your choice in calibers,

but you sure rate an A++ in the graphics dept.

Cute little Ford Groupie!

Got a real version of that to show us?

Can't wait to see her!

Seafire,

Of course I have the real version, except without the purple hair. Shes a brunette upstairs and down,if you catch my drift.
You probably wont be seeing that graphic in the near future.

Good shooting,
Ford

Heavyweight--a couple of thoughts (on a sleepless night-knee surgery therapy sucks)!

Actually here goes-you said something about after a year of work on the 270 Wby you are giving up-maybe I've missed it but what is that all about?

If it is accuracy problems and the gun is set to run then I'd seriously look at rebarreling that rifle-if you like the feel of it.

Second off you'd do just fine with any of the big 30's. It sounds like you're mainly interested in a 300-400 yard rifle for late season cow elk. If that is the case then I'd go for about any cal based off the 06 on up to the 33's.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

338 lapua magnum for 500 yards and barret 50 bmg for 1000 yard shooting and naturally you can throw away your 280 ,3006 7 mm rem mag they can,t kill deer any more they are old calibers and suffering from impotency! and Swedish moose are becoming harder to shoot with old 6,5 se
regards
danny

Now for a bunch of general thoughts because this thing seems to of drifted away a bit from Heavyweights original question.

AKB--you said something about being clearer about where he is from--if you look at his first post and his address it says Boise-hint this is not the east coast...

Lawcop--your friend was very fortunate to get opportunities at bulls on 2 different days-most likely he was on a guided hunt and most likely he was on private land. Anyway to your comment about the 358,to me it is a neat round but is one of the last one I would take on a high dollar elk hunt. It just doesn't have the range-in my opinion. Now it seems to me his chance at a bigger bull came at about 400 or something like. if he had been carrying a garden variety 06/270 or something like that the game would of been over right then and there. As long as he was equipped with a range finder. Killing an elk at that range is no big rocket science, and does not require a big cartridge.

Next up on my thoughts it seems like "what is proper elk round" has become the what is better the 06/270 or 280 story and question of the times.

SDgunslinger--yeah I do like the 340 I've taken as many elk with that round as any other-the 270 probably being about the same number. I can honestly say that after all the elk I have taken, and have seen taken and guided for there wasn't one of them that couldn't been taken just as easily with the 270 as with the 340. Just my findings.

Frank--you are one lucky son of a gun to hunt that place! I know of where you talk about, and it is a different world of elk hunting compared to what Brad and I and most of the rest of the world get to hunt. You are truly blessed to be able to hunt that place. Need a partner this year there??

The country one hunts has a lot to do with cartridge selection--I hunt open country for the most part and am very comfy waiting for my shot-so I can get away with carrying rounds a bit lighter.
Now if I was to be a "black timber" hunter I'd carry my 338/06 with 250 Swifts and never want for more-or perhaps an 06 with 200 Nozlers or Swifts. But in the country I hunt I have just as much a chance at shooting at long range as I do short, so I carry something with a bit more range.

It is just my gut feeling but I think the ultimate elk rig is one of the big 30's with a 200 in it. I haven't shot many elk with such a rig so I can only give my guess here. I do know that I have found more 225 and 250 Nozlers in critters from my 340's over the years than about all other bullets put together. Now I have shot fairly significant amount of game with the 340 but it always struck me kind of weird how many of those bullets I found. And I do appreciate having two holes in critters. Me thinks the long 30 bullets would go on thru.

Stubble-- about your tests idea--kind of a neat idea but in the real world it doesn't mean much. My point here is that how do you control the hunter when he is on the hill. I mean not many people are gonna get into trouble at 100 yards or something like that. But... you get them on the hill and too many people's discipline goes right out the window. They will take shots they can't make-be it hail mary's when they have no idea of the range or shots at running critters. To me so much of this comes down to respect and discipline. You have respect for the game so you stay within your abilities to deliver a killing shot and that is the discipline. Case in point I had a fella on a tree stand a couple of years ago in Wyo for whitetail. This nice buck came in and he missed it broadside at 25, the deer ran to about 40 or so and the deer faced straight at him. Now keep in mind that he missed the broadside layup shot so what does he do but send an arrow at a criiter farther hoping against hope that he could spine the critter down between the horns. So.. as I say its all about discipline and knowing your boundries and abilities and respect for the critter. I've found that when people lay down their money many of them feel that is their right to shoot-whether they have the ability or no. They are gonna shoot-it takes a very disciplined man/women not to take a shot they are not positive they can make. My hat is off to those that have that discipline and respect.

Now for the out of state versus in state theory. I hear it a lot you live in a state where the elk are so you have time to pass on shots. You know the old come back next week theory. Well I say horse hockey to this. The only way to me that helps is if the elk are not around in the public land I hunt and I can hope they move in for the next hunt. One problem here is that where I do most of my elk hunting it takes me about 5 hours on good roads to get there-the roads are not something to count on here in November and that is not exactly the makings for a quick I have a day off trip now is it?

Now to me the out of stater is a good share of the time on a guided hunt-and many times on private land. He/she usually has about a week to hunt. And they are hunting a different type of elk than the public land hunters. If you don't know what I mean by this then you have not hunted them both ways. I am to say here that if anything they have more time than Joe average hunter from Montana, and that they will have a better chance to drop the hammer on a bull.
Brad and I were talking the other day about this-we pretty much concurred that we would much rather take a brush head on our own on public land than go on a guided private land tour for a 350 bull. There is a big difference!
So.. if anything the in state hunter has more reason to take a Big gun to the elk hill-at least in my mind. But that is not the case as I see it

Now about this notion of big guns causing people to shoot poorly. Yeah in theory it works-but from what I've seen either the shooter has the ability or he/she doesn't. Either they are willing to take the time to practice or not. I've seen just as many poor shooters shooting average size guns as I have large. It all comes down to knowing your limitations-whether you are using a 06 or a 340. And then having the disipline to stay within them. I've shot more than my share of chucks with my 340's at 300-500 yards, so I feel quite comfy with it.

I've seen bookworms have trouble with big rifles than anyone else. What, you say is a bookwork-well you know them-they can qoute the load books and what Billy Joe the gun writer says we should be using for elk. And what the ammo companies say you should use. They read all the reports But.. they don't have the ability to do it when it comes right down to it. They need to be able to do it quickly and right now! They read about it, and they spend money on fine rifles to try to buy ability-but it just doesn't work.

Not all but most of the people I've seen at the range with muzzle brakes have some guns issues also (and about now you're probably thinking I do as well right-so much for sleepless nights eh). They are usually using brakes because they are nervous of the big guns--I'll tell you right now if you are nervous and need a muzzle brake then you really need to get more familar with your rifle. I don't know if this makes much sense or not but the really good big gun shooters I know shoot them a lot, and without those loud noise makers on them end. Not that I dislike brakes or anything.

Lastly about elk and elk hunters this much I know-and if you are with me yet thanks for staying with me-sorry for rambling soo much.

This is what it is about for me when it comes to taking elk sucessfully on your own year after year.

#1--you have to be in an area where the elk are
#2--PMA--this stands for positive mental attitude-I see a lot of people come to elk country and if they don't find bulls behind every tree they start acting like someone pissed in their wheaties, and it all goes down hill from there.
#3--physical conditioning--this helps with the PMA, most people I see/hunt/meet cannot stand the physical and mental riggers of a week long elk hunt.
#4--TRY--it comes back to the #2 and #3 you gotta keep after it
#5--shot placement
#6--bullet selection
#7--cartridge choice

It is most likely just my thought process but to me this is what elk hunting is all about. We argue to no end about what round we should take. When it comes right down to it there are soo many that will work. I will say this one last thing-but I feel that the succesful elk hunter is gonna be the one that spends more time with the first few thing on the list than he/she does with the last one on the list.

I may be finally tired-sorry for the rabbit chase I took you on-had some thoughts and some time so I got after it.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Lots of good advice here. How about this: You already have a 270 Weatherby which in my view is perfectly adequate and then some for mule deer and elk. Al though the 300 ( win, weatherby or H&H) would be my choice, I'd go up to the 338/340 class just to give you more versatility. jorge

Mark,
Your list of what it takes to elk hunt is perfect. I'm far from an expert on elk but I think it applies to all hunting. As long as you are in an area that has game, PMA, effort, and physical conditioning are way... WAY more important than the caliber of rifle one chooses. Good luck with your rehab. The days are getting shorter.

Jeff

[ 07-14-2003, 17:25: Message edited by: Skibum ]

Mark, you put a lot of heartfelt work into that great post of yours, and it's appreciated. I could't agree with you more, and on just about every point.

Too many guys see themselves as elk shooters, and not elk hunters. If confronted, they would deny this to be the case, but in reality, a great many guys simply want to go out and shoot an elk (a B&C bull would be nice!) with as little effort as possible, then get the hell off the mountain and head for home.

Guys get into trouble on elk shots because they don't know how to hunt. They make enough noise for a brass band, don't spend enough time glassing, carelessly misdirect their scent without conscious thought, skyline themselves, ignore the use of cover, etc. Then they finally get a fleeting chance at a spooked elk, throw a hasty shot at said elk, blow the opportunity, then blame the rifle and cartridge as insufficient for the task of elk hunting. Same old song - just another verse!

Minnesota Fats, the famous pool player, was once asked how he became so consistent at making shots. He replied that he never had to make a tough shot. He set his play up so that he didn't have to make near-impossible attempts. That was his secret.

Proper elk hunting is no different. Yes, there will be occasional opportunities that'll be demanding, but if you set your play up properly and keep your shirt on, those tough, off-balance shots will be few, and you might not choose take some of them anyway, and the elk will win the round that day. And you will be disappointed, but you'll live with it and head out for another the very next morning bright and early, or maybe even next season........

AD

[ 07-14-2003, 18:23: Message edited by: allen day ]

Allen, Great post. The reference to Minnesota Fats was priceless. As a avid hunter & Pool player, the metephor rings True!

As for the question at hand; "Your pick for the ultimate elk/mule deer caliber?"

My vote (for one) would be for the .300Win mag., and I don't even shoot one anymore.

I have a .270win & a .338win mag. I believe they (together) are the Ultimate Deer/Elk Calibers!

Skibum thanks for the thoughts-I can be patient as heck glassing for game, but when it comes to patience with recovery......... Well you get it

Sorry for the extremely long post last night-I couldn't sleep and had things on my mind. Brad and I often laugh about how this puter, and these hunting thoughts can get to us.

A.D.--good thoughts again on your behalf-and you are right somedays the elk just win and we should not take the shot presented. I remember the best chance I ever had at a truly big bull. I guess it was about the fall of 92 or 93. I was carrying this beautiful Obendorf in a 9.3x64. This bull came out at fairly long range-I had no range finder, and no idea of where to hold-and I thought it was too long of a shot to take the bull down. So, I didn't drop the hammer but I will never forget the sight of that big old guy walking accross that snow field. Now if I had shot perhaps I would of hit him, and perhaps I would of taken a leg out and that would of made for some terrible memories. Nothing like the ones I have now!!
I've taken a couple of guys from hunting camp with me to that spot-one of them just said I would of shot no matter the distance-I'd of just kept holding higher till I ran out of bullets or I got the bull. That is not my style.
Now if, and when the situation comes up again-I will be in a better way. I normally carry something with a bit more range (270-7 Mashburn Super-or my 340). I've practiced with them all a ton-I have premier reticle dotz in them to 700 and I never go anywhere without my Leica range finder. And if the conditions are right, I will take the shot, and it will be clean and neat. The bull deserves that. And that will be a good day!
Now for the 9.3 day it is still one of my best days on the hill. Most of my best days on the hill have ended without me taking a shot.

Well my Grandson is calling most likely the hunting video is over--grins.

Have an awesome day

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Wow, alot of attention to this thread. One thing I think is being overlooked is the Muley. Many cartridges being recomended would be too harsh on them since meat conservation is very important to me. I will side with those recomending ballistics in the 300H&H range. Plenty for Elk way out there (easily through both shoulders out to 400yrds w/a partition or X). My choice is my .30Gibbs since it shoots a 180gr XLC close to 2900fps. With the X's .552BC it has a little more than a ton of energy @ 500yrds, but does not splatter the smaller Muley like some of the others. And yes the XLC will shoot well (MOA or better out of my 24" sporter).

Deke.

Another vote for .300 win mag.

I enjoy reading these posts even though I've never hunted elk. I like Mark's list and to Allen's point, nothing inspires me to hunt more than seeing a quality animal in the field(out of range). Archery is my favorite way to hunt and that is precisely why. If they're out of range, I just have to sit and watch (and learn)!!!

Man with all this ranting and raving about Mag this Mag that, I kind of lost all my steam for this thread! But for me (A Big Non-MAG Fan-don't need them-Don't own one, never will either) The Venerable old -06 just does anything I need it to do. Load it with 165-200 grs and it will kill those bullet proof elk/mulelies just as dead as your superdupper Mags will at any reasonable range!!! If I can't get with-in 300 yds of an elk or Mulely I guess I don't eat!!! Hell I'm going to make it real interesting this year and limit myself to 200 yds Max with Lever gun!! If you haven't figured it out yet I'm a Hunter not a Shooter( Sniper). I really prefer to be close enough to smell the game I shoot! Don't you?

[ 07-14-2003, 20:40: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Any thing from a 270 win on up will work with a good bullet, put in the right spot.I use a 375 ultra mag and YES I shoot it well, I've had alot of big bores up to and including the 460 wby,not because you need it but because I like it.Small bore , big bore they all work,use what your good with and what gives you confidence.Just for the record i have seen more people shoot poorly with the 30/06 than with anything else.Most people don't shoot enough to get good with their rifle in any caliber!Alot of people shoot maybe 50-100 rnds a year-not enough.

Mark D:

that was an excellent post and lot of good information. Very Well Said!!!

GunNut, Your my type of hunter! Got a spot at my campfire for ya anytime guy!

Seafire
You can sit by mine as well!! I just love these guy' that get all rapped around the axle about being able to miss the target at 500 plus yds!!
Longest shot I've taking on big game was 150yds or so I don't need or use a range finder!!! Sited in at 2" High at 100yds 180 gr -puts me just about dead on out 250 yds

[ 07-15-2003, 18:49: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Hi Guys:

Let me add my two cents. My Elk and Mule Deer rifle is the 300 RUM, Remington. The only things I had done was a trigger job and custom muzzle break. Shoots sub MOA with factory Remington 180's about 3350 FPS and 200 grain Nosler.

I also took this rifle to Africa as my lite rifle. This rifle has seven one shot kills... It hits like the Hammer of Thor! (1) Bull Elk (1) Coyote, (1) Zebra (2) Hartebeast (1) Warthog (1) Impala...

This is my go to rifle in the past three or four years. When I have to make the shot, short or long, and have to hit it hard to keep it down... nothing in my battery equals my 300 RUM..

Regards... Jim P