My pick for the ideal elk rig would be a .338 Win. For mule deer, a 7mm Rem. For both, I'll split the difference and say something in the area of a .300 Win, Weatherby, or RUM would be nearly ideal. Given open country, I would go with the 7mm Rem before the .338 Win. Why? Cause elk are most often shot in timber and I hunt with a 7mm Rem. With 160 gr bullets of the right construction (read Nosler), it will do anything the 180 gr .308 cal will do at the same velocity with a little less recoil. With the 175 gr bullets, it is every bit the game getter that the .308 Win with 200 gr bullets. There is a reason it is the country's most popular magnum.
I am rambling. Just wanted to make sure ya'll knew I hadn't given up on my 7mm. Great rifle. Just picking out "ideals" gives me an excuse to buy another rifle

Ted S, Hawkeye, and Badboyz were right when they said 338 RUM!!!! Especially if your shots are longer range. I had one, (wish I still had one) and loved the way it threw down deer like they were ragdolls. Loaded with a 185gr Barnes XLC @ ~3400fps makes for mean deer and elk medicine...or with a 210gr XLC or Nosler Partition @ 3200-3300fps has plenty flat of trajectory and awesome smacking power. I sold mine to get a Lazz/Sako .308 Warbird, and sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision...we'll know this hunting season I guess . Speaking of the .308 Warbird...it's a great gun as well for what you're looking for. I'm shooting a 168gr XLC @ ~3600fps for deer and antelope, and I'm using my .375 H&H for elk this year. Although I would like to try Nosler's 200gr Accubond ballistic tip @ ~3300fps for elk as well. But you can get the 338 RUM for a lot cheaper than you can get the Warbird. JMHO.

FarRight...
Glad to see you're still in Bozeman, sorry we never got together, took the last semester off to get a clear head. I'll be up there all summer and if you're going to be in town, let me know...we'll go grab a beer or something.

257 wby works for me.

Brad,
I think where some of the out of state I need a bigger gun thought comes from is that hunting elk in the West can be pretty intimidating for many hunters who have only hunted Eastern whitetails. The country is bigger, the animals are bigger, and so the thinking goes the rifle needs to be bigger.

Jeff

Skibum,
I think the ideal rifle needs to be a Mauser 98 with "OEJ" on it somewhere and be in 7X57

I believe you hit on the nail on the head as far as the thinking goes from out of staters along with the concpet of the Elk being some D9 Cat Dozer on four legs. Most of the time they can just bring their white tail rifle and practice at longer ranges. Typical Thomas Creek shots are from 100 yards(rare) to 250 or so. The elk in there are carnivorous and seem to prefer human flesh, which adds another element. Oops I was supposed to tell you that when you arrive, lol.

I bet you won't kill enough elk in your lifetime to measurably (meaning one animal) improve on the 270 Wthby. with heavy partitions or X-bullets. A superior deer killer is hard to imagine.

Starting from scratch I'd take a .300 Win.

I like my .270Win, and I like my .338Win. I would pull the trigger on either one. (and anything in between for that matter) So I guess the Ultimate one is, the one I am holding at the time.

The same ones I've always used, a .300 Win mag, or a 30'06, I like 200gr bullets of the Nosler type in the .300, and a 180gr bullet in the '06.

Brad,

I decided to pop into Barnes bullets in my travels today since I was right there anyway, and who should be at the door to greet me but Randy Brooks himself. I was tempted to ask him, "since you live in Utah, why are all of the animals you shoot in your propaganda adds from other places"? But self control got the better of me.
I figre its because here, he could shoot them with the less exciting calibers and that aint gonna sell any bullets..

KK
Trust me an Alaskan/Yukon moose in the rut all worked up after being called in is as bullet proof as a cape buffalo. While nowhere as mean as a buff they can soak up major hits from big bores and run off looking unscathed. My budies and I have shot them with 375s and 416s and up to 460 Wbys.
Don't expect to blow a worked up bull in the rut off his feet 'cause it isn't going to happen.
Shoot a moose near a lake with a 270 and you better shoot it in the head 'cause if you don't you are in for the coldest swim of your life and a very bad day.
While most moose fold pretty quick, don't forget with big moose comes big bears, and I think a big gun.

Leave your pea shooter for the lower 48!

Jamie

I was thinking about the "bigger gun from outta state" thing and wanted to share my thoughts.

I was born and raised in north central Montana with the whitetails, muleys and pronghorn. Besides my first pronghorn which was taken with a 22-250 all my critters have fallen to an 1894 Winchester in 30 WCF of 1908 manufacture. I got a lot of kidding for shooting that old gun. But it worked well. I would jump off the school bus, run into the house and grab the 30-30, say "hi mom" and head out the back door for "the ridge" with my dog while there was still some hunting light.

Well, fast forward through my MSU days where stupid me got an engineering degree and learned the hard way of where I was going to find work - western WA in 1990 and it has been culture shock to this day.

Anyway, I pay out of state fees (not complaining) and drive a long ways with the old F-250 loaded for a little speedgoat or deer meat. I have to (had too anyway, I'm laid off now but that's another story) put in for vacation and take it when I can.

Okay, I haven't abandoned the old Winchester as I hunt the Cascades for the ghost of the forest blacktail with the 30-30, but considering my investment in time and cash for a Montana trip I don't want to come back empty. I've stepped up and bought my first scoped rifle in M70 Winchester Classic Stainless .338. My thoughts are if I can shoot my little speedgoats and deer regularly with it I'll be doing fine for that hopefull day I'll go for bigger stuff and hopefully Alaska someday. I get to shoot it here and there and obviously my range has stretched a bit further than the lever with open sights. It simply provides a little more margin of freezer fill.

Ironically only one critter over these years has justified the longer range needs but at least I'll have the caliber for a bigger critter.

there, asleep yet?

Dale

ostlund: If you reload for your .338WM, you will have a great number of bullets to choose from, starting as low as 160-grains, all the way to 300. I prefer .33 bullets from 225 grains to 300, but lots of deer hunters use lightweight bullets, and some elk hunters use bullets that weight just a little over 200 grains.

In Alaska, the .338WM is as popular as the .30-06, and the .300WM, but the .338 is all I use for hunting.

No matter where you hunt elk, there are two critical rifle-related issues that can't be overlooked, and those issues are bullet placement and bullet construction. Cartridge selection doesn't matter nearly so much as the ability to place a tough bullet that won't come apart in the right place. Elk are big alright, but they still require careful bullet placement to effect a clean kill. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades, and I'd a lot rather see a hunter select a .30-06 that he can really shoot rather than a .300 Ultra Mag that he secretly HOPES he can shoot.

AD

True.

Assuming those things are under control (practise,practise,practise...) my moose rifle has been 45-70 and just recently 338 Lapua for open field hunt. Expanding bullets that can still take bones. Moose are tough.

Keeping in mind that the elk were pushed back into the mountains and almost cleaned out by guys with 30-30s, I haven't found any particular flaws with the 7mm Remington. Its ballistics are worth considering, and its recoil is moderate. I'm rarely any further than 30 miles from the nearest box of ammunition for sale, and handloading is simple with readily available components. Life is good.

Tom

34 elk 7 moose and many ,many deer have fallen to my .243 but most of you guys think this is just too small of a rifle for those hard to kill animals. its not the size of the gun its the shot placement

Dobie

Have you ever goofed a shot and wounded a elk with your 243? I'm a little worried about a 243 hitting the shoulder on a bull elk. If you havent one day you might.

To say bullet placement is every thing is one thing but no one is a perfect shot. Things can happen that are out of your control.

I think I would pick the 7mm Rem Mag. It's basically for me like a modern day 06. The 30-06 would be fine also, as would the 270 WSM, or wby mag.

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
quote:Originally posted by Brad:
This "I'm from out of state and need a bigger gun" stuff is fascinating.

OK I'LL clear up the concept for you "locals"

IF I take one of your "guided" hunts I am shelling out $7,000+ for for 5,7,10 whatever days, it will probably be a MAYBE once or even 2 times in my life to make it. So I have 10-14-20 days hunting elk in my lifetime vs your however many days over how many years you have to hunt them.

All I am saying is that if I have my only opportunity to take a nice trophy is presented as a bull climbing a hillside going away at 400yds and I will have to range through most of the animal to get to the vitals, a .340 Wby makes that shot realistic(it's also a shot I wouldn't hesitate to take. Off a bench I can usually keep that rifle and load at 8-9" at 1000yds, so "minute" of elk at 400 is NOT that tough) where a 30-06 or.270, 7mm or .243,22-250, does not. It is NOT that elk are impervious, just that in order to take advantage of whatever presents itself you need a firearm that does NOT limit options.
A friend of mine on his 3rd big $$$ elk hunt with no bull, got tired of lugging his 338/378( a custom weighing 12+ pounds) up and down the hills and his 2nd to last day to hunt carried his little .358Win. bolt gun. On a hillside 450yds away was the biggest elk he had ever seen quietly grazing along. No question a .358 will do nicely on elk, just not at that range. Next day he carried the .338/378 and FINALLY got a lesser bull, at 50 FEET.
All I am saying is the bigger guns keep more options open.

Same reason when I walk out my back door to hunt Mi whitetails, the smallest I carry is my .358win or my Marlin shorty in 45-70. Too much gun, who knows, but it sure keeps the shot options open.

I would think that your .270 Wthby would do just fine, but as a "pick" for the combo of deer and elk, I'd go with my .300 Wthby (or a .300 RUM) with 180 gr premium bullets. I use a .338 Win if I am after elk solely.

I have taken several Moose and a few Elk. Used a 300 win mag for most, but I would say a 7mm or larger is the best for both species.

My favorite rifle for a Mule deer is a .257 Roberts, but I also use a .280 and a 7X57 (close second to the Roberts). The controlling factor here is the elk. Whatever would kill him will certainly do the deer in fine fashion. I would opt for a .338 or a .300 Winchester. But as mentioned the .270 Weatherby will work fine also. Place a good bullet where it does the most good (said already).

.458 x 500 gr. lead(3%tin okay) paper patched at about 1500-1600 fps. Just one of my theories.

All ELK too date 338wm. I hope this year 358norma,or 358sta.

358 norma, or 375 ICL no real order on either of em

I am totally delighted with my 300ultra for elk and moose.Using a 180gr bullet it has killed four elk and two moose for me with six shots from 80 to 377 yards.If I am hunting only for deer I use a 7mmstw.For the record I find that although moose are bigger they are no more difficult to kill than elk.They may not drop instantly but they seldom go far even with a marginal hit.Elk on the other hand seem to try much harder to keep moving even after hit with a properly placed bullet.

Brad

Part of the out -of -stater-needs-a-big gun mentality comes from the cost of elk hunting , as well as the time invested . If I could hunt elk for a $16 license , plus an hour's worth of gas , I wouldn't worry too much about the gun .

But when us flatlanders need the better part of a $Grand just to get started (that's if you do everything yourself!) , you don't want to pass up too many shots either.

I seem to recall you like the .338 , and Mr. Mark D. likes the .340 Weatherby ?...........

My vote for the perfect combo rifle would be the .300 Weatherby.........

I would say a bare, absolute minimum of a .460 Weatherby Magnum loaded with 500 grain softpoints and then only if the elk ain't pissed! If I were you I'd take that .270 Weatherby Magnum and turn it lose only on p-dogs, but only if you can get a honest-go-goodness headshot, cause those little bastards charge when they are wounded, don't ya know. Just kidding! Acutally, I shoot a 7x57mm Mauser and with the exception of a 500 yard shot or two that I would not take with any caliber I have been more than happy with this cartidge and the 160 grain bullet. I shoot this rifle a lot, so am very, very familiar with the trajectory, drop all the little things that can make a hunt frustrating. I have a friend, who is a former undersheriff here, who also does a little guiding on the side. His rifle of choice, a 6mm Remington. Johnny told me that he hunts elk, not just shoot them, so his rifle of choice is more than adequate for his needs. Now, I could shoot an elk in the ass with my 7x57mm and you know what, if I was using a .340 Weatherby or some other such rifle it would be just as ass-shot. At the same time, if I shot that .340 Weatherby just as much as I shoot my 7x57mm and was as confident of the .340 as I am of my 7x57, then the .340 would be my rifle of choice. Unfortunately, quite a few people will be talked into buying a boatload more caliber than they will ever need as "insurance" then shoot the rifle a few times to tell their buddies that thing is accurate as hell, have no idea what the drop is and then bang away at a 600 yard elk and then look distainfully at his rifle as his buddies laugh while the elk high-tails it over the horizon ... unhit. The only insurance I ever heard about was the kind you buy for life and health, not hunting insurance, and also the kind which requires you to know your rifle and caliber inside and out because you shot it enough to know it well. Some other poster said it well enough. Step up to a premium bullet. You have a rifle that is more than adequate for elk. Just shoot the hell out of it on the range at varying ranges, and I mean shoot it hundreds of times. Believe me, that rifle caliber will work for you if you work with it. Tom Purdom

[ 05-25-2003, 04:14: Message edited by: thomas purdom ]

I'd like to try a 7mmWSM shooting a 162gr AMAX, that would be a deadly combo. Jay

160 gr partition coming out of a 7mm Rem mag, or wby, will get the job done nicely on both deer or elk. Personally, I would go with a 140-150 gr for deer, and 160 gr for elk.

Ray, Alaska,

I do reload for the .338. Have done some Nosler 250's but mostly Sierra 215 gr to date. They are very accurate in my gun and are cheap for lots of shooting. They are also just fine for pronghorn, deer and prarie dog hunting. (that's my disclaimer before someone gets excited about a "poor" bullet selection). I have recently picked up up some Nosler 210's to try too after reading about Ray A.'s experience with them. All in all it is an excellent caliber and I don't think you can go wrong with it.

Here is the correct solution for the one Rifle Elk/Mule Deer situation.
Elk = 7mm Remington Magnum Nosler 160 gr. Partitions.
Deer = 280 Remington with Nosler 140 gr. Partitions
More Rifles = More enjoyment!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

My choice for the ultimate elk caliber is related to the specific environment I expect to find the elk in.

Black timber: 375H&H w/260gr Nosler Partition

Open areas: 300WSM w/180gr Nosler Partitions

Mulies aren't quite as tough so the 300WSM w/180gr Partitions gets the nod.

Summary: 300WSM w/180gr Partitions for the ultimate elk/mule deer caliber and keep the 375 in the truck in case you might want to stalk elk in the black timber for grins.

Note: I've hunted elk enough to know that anchoring them is important because they can absorb a lot of punishment but retain just enough energy to get to the bottom of the thickest brush choked ravine to die. Hence the 375 if you're packing out your own meat.

$bob$

[ 05-29-2003, 14:52: Message edited by: LDHunter ]

This is why the 7mm Rem Mag made such a splash - need to get one of those.

LAWCOP
So your buddy couldn't or wouldn't stalk to within range of the Elk at 400 yds? He had a perfectly good firearm-he just needed to "hunt that elk"!!! Cause one way or another he would have had to go that 400yds! Think about it!!

I for one am not convined that a 7mm Mag. wouldn't do the job nicely. It will speed that bullet right along, and you're giving up a meager 5 grains to the 180gr bullets. It's easy to shoot compared to some of the boomers, and the guns for it are not all that heavy. Just one man's opinion. It works well for me on moose. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal