I took both of my 338 Win. Mag. rifles with Leupold 2.5-8X Vari-X III scopes to the range today with Federal 225 gr. TSX factory loads, plus my old and reliable Oehler 33 chronograph that I've owned for eighteen years. I fired this same factory load through both rifles at 100, 200, and 300 yds., and both rifles have 24" Kreiger bbls. with 1-10" twist.

Rifle # 1 produced 2825 fps. MV, and .9560" groups at 100 yds. that were 2.25" high. At 200 yds., POI was dead-on, and groups size was 1.543". From 300 yds., groups size was a superb .9790" (two shots were in one elongated hole) and 7.5" low. The actual drop from my rifle matches Federal's numbers for this loading very closely, and is also approximates the trajectory of the 30-06.

To hedge my bet, I used the very tip of the lower verticle Duplex reticle as my aiming point at the center of the target for a few more shots at 300 yds., and those shots went 2" above point-of-aim and into just a little over a 1" group. The 338 Win. Mag. doesn't have the flattest trajectory in the world, but if you know your rifle and know how to use the scope, you can cut some corners in this department, as these results demonstate.

Rifle #2 produced 2807 MV, with a .5970" group 2.25" high at 100 yds., and then the wind started to pick up a bit and I had to wait for some lulls between shots and I still had a bit of a breeze to fight. Even so, it hit 2" high at at 200 yds. (notice that difference compared to rifle #1) into a 2.2635" group, and the bullets landed 8" low at 300 yds. into a 1.8696" group. Once again, the Duplex hold sent the bullets just 2" above point-of-aim at 300 yds.

That particular range being in use today by a local police agency, I didn't get to shoot at 400 yds., but that 400 yd. stadia wire should allow for a solid hit at that range based on what I've seen today.

Based on sightly greater MV, slightly less drop, and a sub-1" group at 300 yds., I'm taking rifle #1 elk hunting this year with Federal's 225 gr. TSX load. Rifle #2 grouped smaller at 100 yds., and I believe it would have done better downrange as well if the wind had not picked up by the time I was shooting it at the longer distances.

You can NEVER get truly ready for long-range hunting until you actually shoot at 200 yds., 300 yds., and over. Shooting off the bench at 100 paces then jumping to conclusions just doesn't work except by fortunate happenstance. How the paper-plate-off-a-truckhood guys get by I'll never know...........

AD

Hi Allen... hard to argue with those results!

Allen, good info., thanks for the report. I read an interesting article in Handloader magazine yesterday regarding the Accubonds, and it was specifically discussing 300 Win Mag loads.

I have noticed much of what they concluded, which stated very briefly, is that the Accubond is a very long bullet, (the longest Nosler produces) and that it is not stabilized well by typical 300 mag barrels which are usually 1 in 10" rifling, the preferred rate is 1 in 9" rifling. I have noticed that my 300's are very edgy on the consistency with the Accubonds.

At any rate I have had good luck with the AB's on game, but I thought you might want to know about this article, which I think supports where you are going anyway, which is to get the TSX's into play. I have only shot 7 or 8 whitetails with the XXX's, all in .270 and the results were good. Seemed a bit of the pencil through thing on a couple--small exit wound on 3 of them, but all dead right where they stood, so I guees it's doing it's thing, all bullets were pass throughs, 2 of them through shoulder or shoulders. They sure shoot well out of my rigs.

Good luck on your hunt--Don

Allen's results are spot on. You can shoot 6 different rifles of the same manufacture with the same lot of ammunition that are perefectly zeroed at 100 yards and they will vary in their "come ups" at 300 yrds as much as 3/4 minute. At 600 yards it can be a full minute of difference. That is 6 inches difference between 2 identical guns with the same ammo.
You must shoot your rifle at the distance you intend to use it at.

Allen, them are some fine shooting rifles.
However, you make me nervous when you do not use Nosler Partitions.

Great rifles and super shooting Allen!

Now you have full focus on those great elk...there is a monster ou there...

I continue to hear rave reviews of the Barnes TSX, i've got to get some .308" 168's and some in .243 also. The accuracy seems to rival match grade bullets in so many rifles it's amazing.

Thanks for the report Allen...

Fish, if that's the situation with Accu Bonds in the 300 Win. Mag., then I'd rather just stick with Partitions. I haven't tried ABs in the 300 Win. yet, but I probably will at some point. It didn't dawn on me that the AB's greater length might indicate a faster twist, but the concept makes sense. You'd have to be REALLY committed to the AB in order to go with a 1-in-9 barrel instead of the old-reliable, versatile 1-in-10!

This whole exercise sort of ended up derailing my original plan to test Accu Bonds on elk this season, but my primary objective is to iron-out elk in the most effective manner possible, not run a lab experiment, and based on my experience with the similar Fail-Safe, I suspect the Barnes TSX will be absolutely ideal for any elk situation I'll run into.

I bought out the entire lot number of this 338 Win. Mag./225 gr. TSX ammo that 'Sportman's Warehouse' had in stock, some eight boxes worth, so I'll not only have more than enough for elk season this year, but for Africa next season. Elk will be a solid test, but Africa will be a much more decisive test. There will be a far greater number of animals to hunt, and many of them are elk and moose size. By then, I suspect I'll have my mind made up about the TSX, but I doubt I'll be disappointed ......

What's incredible to me is the accuracy of this bullet, especially downrange. Lots of bullets shoot pretty well off the bench at 100 yds., then reveal their true character downrange by not grouping so well. That's one of the reasons that I've been such a Nosler Partition fan for so many years: Consistent accuracy, and consistent DOWNRANGE accuracy as well. So now it appears as though Barnes has developed a real dream bullet, one that is not only super-tough, but super-accurate as well. If they can maintain this sort of consistency, they'll have created one of the classic big game bullets of all-time.

Federal does such a superb job with this ammunition as well, and I've noticed that Federal has taken their entire game to the next and possibly highest level over the last few years. Accuracy is as good as handloads, and velocity is what they claim it to be as well. Super stuff!

AD

Allen, why not sight a touch higher at 100 to be dead-on at 250? You could use the bottom of the duplex reticle to hit nearly dead on at 400 (unless you're using a stadia wire).

Brad, maybe it's all in my head, but I've been burned by mid-range misses caused by sighting-in 3" high at 100 yds. more than once, so I tend to avoid that practice altogether. Even with the 300 Win. Mag. I never sight-in more than 2.5" high at 100.

Since most big game is taken at 200 yds. or less, even in open country, and due to the nature of the 338 Win. Mag., I never sight a 338 for anything other than a 200 yd. zero. That same is true for a 30-06 and a 375 H&H.

Ross Seyfried wrote one of the most important articles ever published about this mid-range-miss phenomenon in 'Rifle' a few years ago, and his experiences mirror mine almost exactly.

And with my rifle, the lower-post "Duplex hold" is perfect at 300 yds., and the single stadia wire should be right there at 400.

AD

The 338 win mag has way more knock down for longer shots at big game.I have two rifles a Ruger model 77 stainless and a Winchester Stainless model 70 with a boss that both shoot under an inch at 200 yards with Remington 225 gr loads.I have shot deer out to 425 yards with the 338.A friend of mine shot a moose at a little over 300 yards with my 338.It put him down on the spot.I like my 338-378 for anything larger than deer thats over 300 yards but the 338 win mag is the finest all around rifle for all North American Big Game.I keep my 338s sighted in at 250 yards and it will hit with not much hold over out to 350 yards.I have shot a few deer with the 3006 at around 250 yards the always ran the 338 flattened them in their tracks.

dgr416, it packs plenty of whammy alright.....

AD

Allen, nice read and good information to pass along. My good friend and hunting partner uses Federal Ammo exclusively and say "if you dont reload and dont shoot Federal you might as well stay home and watch the soaps."

I also use the lower duplex recticle on my 30-06. With 165 gr. btsp I hold with crosshairs and shoot 2.5 inches high at 100, dead on at 240, and use the duplex held dead on to hit about an inch high at 300. Also use it for low velocity (165gr. cast @ 1250 fps). Same setting on scope, 3x, dead on at 25 yards. Sounds like the Elk are in trouble this year.

Good luck and good shooting,
Eterry

Allen, I sure agree with you, I ain't rebarreling any of my 300's which all shoot TBBC's, Partitions and TSX's well!
It seems that the TSX is really a great design, and all the reports I have seen say they work great on the really big animals.

I am glad to learn of your positive results with the Federal ammo, I will be giving some a try.

When do you head to Elk Camp?

Regards--Don

Allen, I shot 225 grain TSXs in my .338 in Namibia last year and was very pleased with the results. Though I don't have near the big game experience you do, I'll wager that you'll be happy with their performance on game as well. Good hunting.

Eterry, it sounds like you manage your 30-06 in much the same manner as I do my 338 Win. Mag. It's a good system for these cartridges, one that really can't be beat. I agree with what your friend says about Federal. He couldn't be more correct. I've handloaded since I was sixteen years old, but there are certain factory loads that are very tough to improve upon, and Federal makes a number of them.

Desert Ram, I'm glad you added to this thread. What sort of bullet performance did you experience in Namibia with your 338/TSX loads? Did you recover any bullets? How about performance on tough animals such as hartebeest, eland, wildebeest, zebra, and kudu?

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Desert Ram, I'm glad you added to this thread. What sort of bullet performance did you experience in Namibia with your 338/TSX loads? Did you recover any bullets? How about performance on tough animals such as hartebeest, eland, wildebeest, zebra, and kudu?

AD

Allen, here's a quick list of what I shot, ranges, and basic performance:

Jackal @ ~70 yards, quartering away; devestated him, off-shoulder was nearly gone, obvious expansion.
Springbuck #1 @ ~110 yards, broadside; both shoulders broken, nice exit wound, obvious expansion, dropped immediately.
Springbuck #2 @ ~80 yards, tight quartering away, bullet entered in front of left hip, exited front of chest; perfect exit wound, awesome wound channel, obvious expansion.
Hartmann's zebra @ ~130 yards, broadside; both shoulders broken, perfectly expanded bullet recovered against off-side hide; see picture below.
Kudu @ 315 yards (lasered), tightly quartering away, bullet entered in front of right hind quarter, penetrated guts, found in left shoulder; finishing shot at ~150 yards broadside through the shoulders, bullet recovered under hide on off-side; second finishing shot (he was thrashing around and the PH thought he'd mess up the cape) was almost the same.
Gemsbok @ ~200 yards, slightly quartering away; behind on shoulder, exited opposite shoulder, not recovered; follow-up shot @ 286 yards (lasered), broadside through shoulders, bullet recovered against opposite hide.
Hartebeest @ ~200 yards, broadside; complete penetration, evidence of perfect expansion.
Dad's Hartebeest @ ~200 yards, running straight away; entered just right of the bunghole and penetrated all the way to the brisket, where it was recovered.

Pictures of recovered bullets:
Here are the three from my kudu, in about the order they were shot, left to right:


Here are the other three I recovered. Left to right they are zebra, gemsbok, and my dad's hartebeest.

Not to change the subject too much but... I've fired several 300 weatherbys with 26 inch Krieger barrels with 1 in 11 twist barrels that shot 200 ABs into very tiny groups. Just thought that might be of interest.

Ditto on the 1 in 11" twist barrel...'cept mine is a factory Tikka '06 that shoots sub MOA at 300 yds. with 180 gr. Accubond handloads.

AD, I'm pleased that YOU'RE pleased with the TSX accuracy and Fed ammo. From my history of posts, I suppose there's no need in any more "chime" from me and my results using the TSX. If you've read them, you know how I feel about them, and their performance at any usual shooting distance.

Fish and AD, regarding the Accubond, I have VERY limited .308 cal experience but, it was perfect.

I shoot the 200 grain bullet in my 300 RUM and get very tiny groups with my Shilen bbl. Which happens to be 1-10. I think it is a phenomenon that occurs now and then with certain bullets and certain calibers...much like the 200 Sierra MK bullet is the least overall accurate in 30 cal over the 220 and 240. I have been to the range quite a bit in the last month or so and have watched a fair number of guys with their rifles, both factory and custom, shoot Accubond bullets with impressive accuracy, and I recall at least 2 were the 180 in 300 Win and a 300 Dakota if I recall. Bottom line from what I saw is they did just fine in the standard 1-10 twist.

Regarding the TSX and the small entrance/exit holes...look at the bright side: No worries about a messed up cape. I'll tell you this, my brother's little 110 in his 270 smacked the Begeezes out of his antelope this past Monday square in the shoulder and that goat died fast.

He likes it so much, he said to heck with the 130, he's using the 110 on his SC deer the rest of the season.

Just a question or 2: If you take an elk and are VERY impressed with the TSX performance overall, including your African trip, what will you do, if anything, about future kills and the partition? Will it fall to the wayside?

I still have some on my bench but honestly do not see loading them anytime soon.

Hey Doc, have you noticed small exits are typical for TSX's? I have seen it a bit in the animals I have taken with them, I don't know if I would qualify it as an issue at all though....
as I have mentioned, all the animals died right away, so it must be doing it's thing.

With the AB's I have definitely gotten larger exits, but I don't really know what that means in difference of killing effectiveness. I actually like both bullets very much, I have far more experience with the AB's, and it has all been good.

Just wondering--Don

Fish, yes on a couple of the deer we put down the exits were small, about nickel sized but I can promise you this, the one mulie that managed to trot about 10 yards left a highway of blood from that "little" spout.

In fact, it's on video and we kept commenting on how we hadn't seen so much blood pour from a bullet exit hole like that before. I've had even bigger exit hole from a partition not bleed like that. I think it's the difference between the TSX petals "cutting/slicing" tissue vs. standard mushroomed bullets "pushing" there way through.

Regardless, if I had the room, I'd fully stock my bench with TSX in all calibers and in several bullet weights each. THAT's how well they've performed for me.

A nickle sized exit hole makes my heart sing. But reality says the size of an exit hole means nothing. It's what happens between it and the entrance hole that matters.

Anyone pay attention to that?

Chuck

I know I sure do Chuck, I am a big time TX fan end of story.

MD

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
A nickle sized exit hole makes my heart sing. But reality says the size of an exit hole means nothing. It's what happens between it and the entrance hole that matters.

Anyone pay attention to that?

Chuck

I have killed several moose with the 230-grain FS (.338WM), and the exit holes have been small, perhaps the size of a dime and smaller. However, most have dropped on the spot or very close to it after the shot. Most have not required a followup shot. I imagine that the X bullet works in a similar fashion.

I have only recovered one FS from moose so far, which is not common at all since they usually pass through. I stopped using these bullets after Combined Tech. decided to coat them with Molybdenum instead of Lubalox.

I like Swift A-Frame bullets, but for some reason they shoot slow out of my .338, and the 250 grainer data from Swift is quite slow, even at maximum powder charges. I may have to experiment with different poweders.

I plan to use 3-Shock bullets in the near future, since it seems that Barnes have solved the accuracy problems with this design.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
A nickle sized exit hole makes my heart sing. But reality says the size of an exit hole means nothing. It's what happens between it and the entrance hole that matters.

Anyone pay attention to that?

Chuck

Always. It has always been my concern. I've never really given a flip about the actual holes in and out.

This is a little off topic but I just tried some 270gr. TSX's in my 375H&H. load development was over after the 4th group. One grain above max for regular X bullets gave a .60 group. The 3 groups to get up to this load all shot an inch or less. From what I am hearing this is not an unusual occurence but gratifying all the same. This particular rifle has always been dependable with very consistent performance regardless of weather conditions or cleanliness but it has never shot any bullet that well.

Mark

I'll have to chime in with another vote for the TSXs. The 270g groups around an inch in my .375 Taylor and under an inch in both .300 WSMs. As a matter of fact, I broke the Kimber WSM in with Sierra 175g MatchKings and was getting a little concerned because I couldn't get a group under at inch. Loaded some TSXs with RE-19 and immediately started grouping under an inch. Typically the first two are touching. I haven't killed anything with them yet, but they are definitely going to Colorado in a couple of weeks.

MKane160

Over the years I have been batting .050 with the original Barnes X-Bullets. I've had one of maybe 20 rifles shoot them well and some results were almost laughable. I threw in the towel completely a few years ago.

Reading these posts give me an urge to try again with the TSX bullets. Maybe I'll start with a couple of boxes of factory loads before I make the commitment to work up handloads. I won't hold out for one inch groups at 300 yards though .

quote:

I won't hold out for one inch groups at 300 yards though .

If I did that I'd never make it hunting...

Forrest

I bought a couple of boxes of the Federal '06 load with the 180 TSX. Instant one inch groups and that particulr rifle has never shot well with anything but handloads.

I agree about the X bullets. I had A 416 and my current 458 shoot them well. They just have not worked for me in anything else but I'm very please with these TSX bullets. They also seem to foul very little.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Brad, maybe it's all in my head, but I've been burned by mid-range misses caused by sighting-in 3" high at 100 yds. more than once, so I tend to avoid that practice altogether. Even with the 300 Win. Mag. I never sight-in more than 2.5" high at 100.

Since most big game is taken at 200 yds. or less, even in open country, and due to the nature of the 338 Win. Mag., I never sight a 338 for anything other than a 200 yd. zero. That same is true for a 30-06 and a 375 H&H.

Ross Seyfried wrote one of the most important articles ever published about this mid-range-miss phenomenon in 'Rifle' a few years ago, and his experiences mirror mine almost exactly.

And with my rifle, the lower-post "Duplex hold" is perfect at 300 yds., and the single stadia wire should be right there at 400.

AD

Amen to that. People think all bullets travel in a straight line, but they don't. Half your bullets are always over the center point of aim. How far depends on you and your rifle, but to be 4 inches high at any distance means you have to group 2 inches in the field or you stand to miss that 10 inch vital area.

Actually, if you had to take a shot over 300, you have time to adjust W/E (and the wind would probably be a factor).

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
to be 4 inches high at any distance means you have to group 2 inches in the field or you stand to miss that 10 inch vital area.

Would you please explain that to me? Wouldn't that be 6" and not 10 inches?

Thanks.

CL:

If the animal's vitals are 10 inches and you aim dead center, then you have 5 inches either way for error. At 100 yards, you could shoot a gun that shoots 10 inch groups and kill that animal every time, as long as you could hold dead steady.

No matter how small or large your group, half the bullets will be in the upper half of your group, and half will be in the lower half. So suppose we zero such that our bullet rises a maximum of 4 inches high. For most cartridges, that range is going to be around 170-190 yards away (typical for the often quoted 300 yard zero on this site). At 170 yards, half our bullets are going to be in the top half of the group. Problem is, if we deliberately put that group 4 inches high, all the bullets in the top half of the group are going to hit high except those 1 inch away from dead center. In other words, if we can hold 2 inches at 170 yards (group size plus shooter wobble) we will hit that 10 inch vital area every time, since the highest any bullet would hit is one inch (highest bullet in the 2 inch group) plus 4 inches (the height at which we have max trajectory), or 5 inches total. Problem is, a lot of game at 170 yards is spooky already, you can't move around a lot to get into a steady shooting position, and you have to shoot quickly, often from a wobbly position. But yet, you have to shoot 2 inch groups at 170 yards! Far easier to zero at 200 so you don't have to worry about it. At 300 use the Duplex post on a Leupold VariX III and you will have your 300 yard zero.

This diatribe reminds me of some of the pure BS my fellow gun scribes sometimes spew, only in the opposite direction. Suppose we have a rifle that when zeroed at 300 drops 5 inches at 350 yards - wow, point blank all the way out to 350 yards! No, actually, at 350 yards, with no additional trajectory compenstation, you stand a 50% chance of missing. The more inaccurate your rifle, the closer that 50% distance is to 300 yards.

I used to zero at 300, but I have to tell you, after hunting a lot (and not just antelope/deer), Allen is absolutely right - you will endure mid-range misses with a zero that places your bullets too high. I might be wrong, but whenever I see a person pooh-pooh the problem with a zero that is 4 inches high, I think, "Guy doesn't have that much experience." I am sure I am sometimes wrong, but it would be interesting to take a survey of experience vs zero ranges.

AZ: Great post and I too learned that lesson. THe most I sight now now is 2.5" regardless of the rifle. It's just tough sometimes to achieve that perfect 200 yard zero with low powered acopes and heavy duplexes. jorge

quote:

Over the years I have been batting .050 with the original Barnes X-Bullets. I've had one of maybe 20 rifles shoot them well and some results were almost laughable. I threw in the towel completely a few years ago.

Reading these posts give me an urge to try again with the TSX bullets. Maybe I'll start with a couple of boxes of factory loads before I make the commitment to work up handloads. I won't hold out for one inch groups at 300 yards though .

ForrestB,
I had the exact same issue with Barnes X, but I am now a believer in the TSX's.
I think you should at least try some.

I don't yet have any TSX results to report from the field, at least not yet. My NM elk hunt was great and I saw a great many elk, including many 320-330 B&C-class bulls. But I never had an opportunity to shoot at the 350 or better B&C bull that I was looking for. We were up every day at 4:30 AM, out of the bush after dark and into camp between 8 and 9 PM, and we hiked between 8 and 12 miles per day and spent countless hours glassing. We had 7 hunters in camp, but only 1 man scored, and that was on a very fine 360 B&C bull on opening day. No one else fired a shot at an elk. So I'll have to see if I can connect on an elk here in OR in November to test this same TSX load.

In the meantime, I'm off to Tanzania with my 300 Win. Mag. loaded with 180 Noslers, and my 416 Rem. Mag. loaded with 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs.

Keep the fire lit, and good hunting!

AD

Allen, good luck to you. I am glad you had a nice elk hunt, wish you had found the one you were looking for--maybe he is waiting in Oregon for you.

Best--Don

Good hunting Allen, let us know how the hunt goes when you get back stateside!