I was in a busy gunshop the other day and there an old man and woman were there with some guns to sell. They looked a little out of place.

They had a late model Colt Woodsman there with the 4 1/2" bbl. It had some fresh rust on it's slide. They also had a Russian assault rifle there complete with the drum mag. This shop by the way deals in class 3 firearms and it's right on their card. The boss there was telling the old couple that all he could do is cut the assault rifle up into three pieces and they could leave it there. I swear I could see some drool on the corners of his mouth.

Later at the cash register I was waiting as their computer was down to the state for transaction approvals and the clerk was doing paper work. He wrote a check to the old couple for $50.00 for the Woodsman!

This goes on a lot. I see it quite often.

About had to knock a clerk out once,for the very reasons you mention.

Long story short,an Old Boy came in toting a very nice Win 52. I can't now recall circumstances,but he wasn't steeped in firearms knowledge and the rifle had recently came his way through his family. The guy behind the counter,begrudgingly offered him 50 bucks,after they had conversed for a spell.

I called bullshit and told the elderly gent that he was being robbed,plain and simple. The clerk took immediate offense and became more or less enraged(understatement),I laughed and the poor Old Boy did not know what the hell to think. My laughing did not ease the mood of the clerk.

I made a sincere offer,to put lumps on clerk's melon and stipulated that those services would both be free and immediate if he were inclined. He declined and I left the establishment with the Old Boy.

There in the parking lot,I told him there were references that would allow him a ballpark figure pertaining to value and consensus was that $50 for a very nice 52,was a little light(grin).

I understand that business is business,but also know a fucking when I see it. I'm still pissed at that asshole and it's been many moons.

I'm flattered to think he's not forgotten me either(grin)...................

I believe I might have (quietly) tried to inform them of potential value. Quietly lest I get shot by the owner... I believe in capitalism but taking advantage of the elderly is pretty low in my book. Of course if I ended up with something unusual for which I had little knowledge, I'd probably seek advice from someone I trust before selling.

Reed

I think it is altogether a different issue,when both parties know the "going value",but the seller is willing to take a hit in order to move something quickly.

That is an informed decision and the seller has weighed the situation and can act in accordance to his wants/needs.

The other situations described,are a distinctly seperate type of scenario in my opinion. They are bottom feeders preying upon the innocent,in hopes of essentially ripping them off.

That don't taste good to me and I could not keep my mouth shut when witnessing that type of situation. I viewed interaction as nothing more than common courtesy,'course the guy on the other side of the counter had a different opinion.

I sleep good at night and don't think a guy should feel compelled to tiptoe when helping others.

Your mileage may vary..............

I'm simply saying that I wouldn't be too challenging in some of the gun shops I've visited as I know of several where they actually carry at the time and I know of others that are "ready to go" so to speak.

In other words, I would feel like I took a knife to a gunfight.

That's not to say that what you did warrants some buffoon drawing a bead on you but I tend to be distrustful and anyone prepared to rip off the elderly or uninformed is not someone deserving of trust in any way shape or form. Hence my recommendation to be both tactful and quiet.

Just my thoughts.

Reed

Reed,

I didn't intend to infer anything regarding your character or demean your thoughts within your Post.

This is a very subjective matter,some guys would give a shit and others would not.

We are on the same page and your approach is certainly smarter than mine. I simply could not turn my cheek and pretend nothing was happening and was involved before I had weighed everything.

Sadly,I'd do it again(grin).............

...and I would back you up. No offense, taken. Merely saying that gun shops are not places where I would normally pick a fight.

Take care,

Reed

Big Stick you did a great thing! I've witnessed the type of stealing you're talking about and I refuse to stand by and watch that type mugging no more than I will stand by and watch someone be physically mugged. Keep up the good work! It does make a difference.

Reed, I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about? I'm not sure of the type gun shops you're talking about going into, but sounds more like a place of criminal behavior that should be closed down.

I've been present when someone is being taken like you describe.

Usually, I offer more than the store clerk and closer to the actual value. Then I inform the guy wanting to sell the firearms that I will promptly place an ad in the paper to re-sell them for X dollars which is close to their value.

That way if the store clerk wants them he can out bid me at a much more fair price. Otherwise, I bought them at a good price and have a chance to sell them for a small profit.

"Sadly,I'd do it again"

Stick,
Not that it means anything, but you get "esteem mileage" from me!
Unfortunately the are far too many "buckets of slime" out there in the real world. One must do however, what one must do. Actions, not words impress me. Selfless actions impress the most. Personal safety always has a pricetag attached; however, (when contemplated) it's not always easy to differenciate a "sale price" from "full list." When one has a need, he buys a thing and recognizes the value of it without having to look at the pricetag or ask how much!

best,
bhtr

Quote: "Reed, I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about? I'm not sure of the type gun shops you're talking about going into, but sounds more like a place of criminal behavior that should be closed down."

Original situation: elderly couple, ignorant of value for their possessions, being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous gun shop employee/owner.

I suggested that quietly and with tact telling the sellers that they were getting screwed.

Reason for telling them: because it's the right thing to do.

Reason for telling them quietly: because the gun shop owner/employee has already shown the propensity to screw these customers and because there's a good chance making a big issue out of it could degenerate to something ugly.

Reason to keep it from becoming ugly: most would find this obvious but nothing good can come from an ugly situation. Additionally, I'm aware of numerous gun shop owners/employees that in some cases carry a sidearm but more often they don't carry but have a loaded weapon handy.

I would assume EVERY gun shop I go into probably has a loaded weapon pretty handy. They may not get robbed too often but they do get burglarized and therefore are a bit protective of themselves and their property. Especially upon opening and closing shop. I know these shops and owners well and know that they've actually had burglars cut through walls to steal from them. It's a place of criminal activity but not by the owner. You might try making judgements with a little more information.

These folks with whom I'm aware would NEVER rip off someone to begin with but the point is simply that there are others that ARE capable of ripping someone off and are more then likely in reach of a loaded weapon.

Do you consider it wise to start an argument with a person in this situation? I shall assume your answer would be no.

That's my point. Sorry for any previous or current lack of clarity.

Reed

I saw this more than once when I worked at a local shop. It wasn't even so much screwing over the clueless as it was screwing over the financially desperate. The folks who owned the place were generally good people and were good to me so I kept my mouth shut for a long time. I finally got sick of this and some other issues around the shop and quit.
While I was there, however, there were a couple of instances during which I made my employers' greed work for me or people I cared for. One day, the owner had paid some desperate guy $200 for a really nice Springfield 1911. About 20 minutes after the owner left for lunch my Godfather came into the shop to visit and just happened to notice this gun behind the counter. When he asked me "how much" . . . I simply said "is $225 OK???". I figured more than a 10% profit on a gun held for less than an hour wasn't too bad for the store and my Godfather got himself a nice pistol!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

[ 03-02-2003, 01:05: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

John,

That's rather capitalist of you...

Reed

Reed,

I suspect my "capitalism" would have got me fired if they had known about it. Truth be told, I think any customer could have got that gun for less than $250 if they had made it in before the boss came back. His plan was surely to mark it $400 or more.

JohnTheGreek

Reed:

I don't see anything ugly about stepping up and doing the right thing. I don't know how you intend to be sneaky and say something on the sly in the gun store. And if you wait for the stealthy moment the innocent person will be swindled. These sleezy gunshops want you to stay in the closet. If they intimidate and frighten you that's OK. Don't knock those people willing to champion the rights of others that can't defend themselves. Obviously Big Stick isn't intimidated.

You infer these sleezy gun clerks are "ready to go" ready to go where? And you feel like a you took a knife to a gunfight? You should not be patronizing gangsters that are going to shoot you down because you happen along and stop them stealing from the uninformed.

I don't think you're realistic about the situation. Reed, you have to step up and be counted. You can not sneak around in the background. Call bullshit on the thieves loud and clear. You will help everyone involved including the gun shop.

Buliwyf

Well, where I hang out, 'the book' is kept right on the counter. He usually tells them, 'Let's see what the book says', and goes from there. They know he can't give 'book value' and still make money. They're usually thankful and return as customers or, just to visit.

You have a well behaved gun store Willie. That works for everybody...

Buliwyf

The "book" is a joke made for gun dealers to take advantage of folks who don't know the market.Almost every gun in there,is horribly under-priced.

For instance,off the top of my head from the last time I looked at it,the "book" says a 99% Belgium made Browning Safari Grade in 257 Roberts is worth $1250.The last 5 that I saw for sale were $2000-$2200 each,and they all sold FAST.

The book also says a 99% Browning Low Wall (standard model) is worth $550,though all the ones I see in that condition go for $750-$800.

My local shop pays 20% below "book",and sells for 20% above average market price.So,on average,they give unknowing folks around 60% less than what they could get on the open market.

Brian.

Trading a gun with a dealer, any dealer, is a sucker's bet. Every time.

Wstrnhuntr,

That's the kind of people I don't trust. And I think there are better things to stand up for than some OTHER person about to be ripped off. If you disagree I guess I'll be reading about you in either the Darwin Awards or perhaps that third or fourth page of American Rifleman about the little old store clerk that twarts some sort of altercation with her 45.

I'm sorry, picking a fight in a gun shop, somebody's place of business, is just stupid. Period. Perhaps I've watched too much Soprano's lately but that's my common sense speaking. I would agree that standing up for the little guy is the "right" thing to do but unfortunately in life it's not always that simple.

With anything, it's not just black and white, polar extremes, etc., if you think you couldn't solve this problem with tact then...well, there's not really much to say in that case.

Reed

I'm with Big Stick on the leting the inocent know real value. I am sure the old couple mentioned and those desparate went to the gun shop in trust to get a fare value. Any shop owner that lies about real value should not be in business. If you are worried about a gun fight don't have a gun with you in the store. I don't make it a practice to let ANYONE know if I'm packing especialy in an arguement. A formal complaint to local LE against an armed gun dealers "deadly force " threats will look bad and will get them thrown in jail. Might even lose there FFL licence.

quote from Reed: "And I think there are better things to stand up for than some OTHER person about to be ripped off."



best ,
bhtr

Not long ago I was in a shop in my area that is known for "Sharp Practices". A guy came in with the most perfect Smith nickel plated 38 double action,1st model I ever saw. You had to look at the cylinder bores to tell it had ever been fired. As I remember it was first or second year production. The owner looked at it and handed it to me. Then he told the owner: "I can't pay you what this gun is really worth because I don't deal in this kind of antique firearms. To a collector it is worth $500 or more. Here it is worth $250 because I know someone who will give me a quick profit. To maximize your return you need to contact a Smith 'collector dealer'."
We all admired the little 38 and the guy left.
The owner told me that when he was 17 or 18 his father,the then owner, gave him a Colt Navy cased with everything and told him to take it to a gunshow and see what the dealers would give him for it but not to sell it. He said one man told him "Son, Take your gun home before some one steals it. It is worth thousands of dollars more than anyone will pay you here." He said "At least he warned me and I always do the same."
Another dealer friend works on the "It's your gun .How much do you want for it" theory. He says "Worth is in the beholder's eye and your stuff should be valued by you. If I don't want to pay what you want for it, thanks for bringing it by."

[ 03-02-2003, 18:46: Message edited by: Dr. Duc ]

It's kind of curious when things get blown out of proportion, take this thread for example. We have people ignorant of value about to be taken advantage of by a shop owner. I advocate telling the folks that their possession is actually much more valuable like everybody else. I also advocate doing it with tact. This would allow the shop owner to "save face" to a degree and we would have a much greater chance of avoiding something ugly.

That's as accurate as I can form my thought.

Beyond that I gave examples of why it may be a good idea to avoid a scene yet others seem to advocate making some sort of scene. I guess I'm not a big fan of these sorts of scenes.

Use your own best judgment.

Reed

Brian M:

The gun value books are not jokes made for gun dealers to take advantage of folks. These books express value in terms of money not sentimental value or your opinion of what your firearms are worth. These economic apprasials form the basis for comparison and establish very important guidelines to start from.

Your local gun shop offers fair purchases to people at 20% less than market price. Going to a retail center and getting $80.00 on a $100.00 without risk or holding and selling costs not to mention the retailing effort is fair. Your comment about 60% less than what can be obtained on the open market is horseshit.

Buliwyf

Reed:

Doing nothing is always the easy way out. And of course, you can justify that in your mind. If that works for your, thats your choice...

Buliwyf

I keep thinking I won't have to say any more in this thread...

Where in God's name have I advocated doing nothing? Get back to me when you find those words.

I maintain that you've put words in my mouth and I don't really appreciate being characterized as someone that's comfortable with doing nothing. But then again I don't particularly care what you think.

AMF!

Reed

When my buddy was over the house we were talking about this and I could see the wifes ears perk up. She likes money as much as anyone. I am going to keep her and my son informed as to what my stuff is worth and of the rip offs around.

I was over to a widows house a few years ago but she was aware and was getting $400 each if you would and not $50!

This happened to me a few yrs ago. A gunshop that I had dealt with in the past (most likely spent over 5k there) made me an offer on 2 rifles I ask for an outright cash appraisal. Gun #1 was a Ruger varmint stainless with the laminated stock with 20 rnds down the tube...no marks anywhere a 99% piece with a $130 wholesale price scope on it.the offered $325. Second was a winchester commemoritive new in the box with hang tags 1968 Illinois sesquecentenial. are you rdy for this? $165. I left the store immediately and told them i'd think about it.....right....think about never showing my face again. so that's $490 for the pair. I put both on gunbroker at $100 no reserve.
A dealer gave me $375 for the winchester and a second dealer gave me $495 for the Ruger. He bought it for his son. 495+375=870-490=$280 profit over the shops offer. Thanks for the deal.

Buli,
I suggest you pick up the "book" and compare what it says Belgium Brownings are worth,in comparison to what they actualy sell for on the internet.

The last time some of those prices were even aplicable was 20 years ago.

I suggest you call horseshit on the idiot who wrote the book,and not I.He is the one that obviously knows nothing of the market.

Brian.

Bigstick:
Let me say that if you did that in my store(if I had one), you would be banned from my store forever.
You interfered in a business transaction where one party was trying to make a living and the other trying to make a buck, both free to negotiate, go to the next shop, or say NO THANKS.

Was that dealer a thief? Absolutely.

Was the dealer morally wrong. Absolutely.

Did you have the right to interfere with the transaction? Yes, but not in HIS SHOP

Frank,

Interesting perception.

Allow me to elaborate upon my stance. First: Fair IS fair,regardless of where one is standing. Inside,outside or underwater.

Second: A coniving asshole,is just that,regardless of where he tries to manipulate others.

Thirdly: You are dead square wrong,to assume that I have ever once given a thought to spending a single nickle in that establishment. Would not do it if that clerk begged on his knees for my business and offered all goods to me at great savings. Principles weigh heavily with me.

The ban would work nicely for me................

PA Frank,

Free speech rights still exit in businesses open to the public.

I have seen some unfair transactions and I have spoken up by saying, "I would give you $x.xx for it." It sure changes the mood behind the counter when they find out they have to pay a fair wholesale price rather than having the privilege to rob someone.

Fortunately most shops are not like that. But it happened to me once. A shop offered me $75 for a Detonics combat master SS .45. I told the clerk that his offer was low considering that the same gun was selling for $599 new at the time. His response was, "Well you didn't say how much you wanted for it." So I left. About a year later that shop was out of business.

I once witnessed two guys bringing in a number of guns to sell at a local store. One of which was a model 88 Winchester in fair to good shape.

I think the store paid the guy 200.00 for the gun. It went on to the rack later that week for $500.00. I don't know what it sold for, but I'd bet it was from $450-$500. Does this constitute a fraud by the store?? - I don't know.

The seller has the responsibility (to himself) to discover what the gun is worth. If he had no idea of its value, he should have found out before offering it for sale; or at the very least he should have gotten several offers. If he got ripped-off, he was at least partially to blame.

The shopowner, however, IMHO also bears some responsibilty to his customers. (The transaction that I witnessed has made me wonder a little about the ethics of the shopowner. It also made me thinkg of my past dealings - wondering if I was ever taken advantage of.) I agree with some of the others who posted that the shopowner should let the seller know that the below wholesale prices were being offered.

But everyone should know that, no matter what you are selling, its value is exactly equal to whatever you can get someone to pay you for it.

cwilson

I really hate people that take advantage of others. I was in a shop one afternoon when a guy brings in this really nice Mauser in .30-06 imp.(stamped on the barrel). He asked the owner where he good get ammo for it. It was his grandfathers rifle & he wanted to start shooting it. The gun store owner (GSO) tells him it is a wildcat & no ammo is available. The rifle owner (RO) askes him about rebarelling it. The GSO tells him it would cost more than it was worth & tried to get him to buy a Ruger, Win. or Rem. in .30-06 that he had in the store. Of course he would take the rifle in trade for a couple hundred bucks.
I could not stand it & chimed in; "you can just shoot std. 06 ammo out of it w/ little loss in performance & that dies are readily available & he could handload the ammo himself, very easy to do". The GSO gruffs a bit, give me the eye & says, sure you could also go that route. The RO struck a short conv. up w/ me about reloading, his nice Mauser, etc. & I he decided to keep it. I said my good buys & never went back to the shop. Needless to say, the gun store eventually closed w/ service like that.

When all the gun registry bullshit hit here in Canada, a lot of people bailed. There were ads in every paper from guys who would "take your unwanted guns for free or pay a small fee for certain models"

Thousands got screwed for not knowing any better.

The gun shop where I do a lot of business has a sign that says, "We will give you 80% of what we think we can sell your gun for. If you think you can get more for it somewhere else, be our guest."

I've traded a few things in there, and sure enough, in a few days, I'd see the firearm on display with a price tag about 20-25% higher than what they gave me for it.

That's a smart way to do business. People know up front what the gun is worth on the market, and if they're willing to take the 20% hit for convenience, they know what's going on. Giving someone $200 for a gun, and then displaying it with a $500 pricetag a few days later is a good way to permanently lose business, both from the guy who got ripped off, and from everybody he talks to about it.

I am with Big Stick on this one. I don't give a shit who's place it is. One thing though, you don't make many friends this way but who wants to be friends with a gouger.
It is one thing if a gunshop owner is not really intrested in the gun and makes a guy a low ball offer cause he could care less if he ended up with the gun and the guy is wanting to sell.
What I really can't stand is when dealing with guns is when a guy tries to tell you or someone that the gun ain't worth shit and is hard to sell or Nobody wants one like this. Then turns around a puts it on the shelf for triple the price he bought it for.
Everyone one likes to make money but you don't have to be a lieing S.O.B to make money.

Daryl

Pa. Frank:

Yukoner's comments reflect my view as well. Interference in the transaction is invited when an educated party is taking advantage of the uninformed. There are a number of people that don't know the ropes on firearms and if you're outside that loop it's not simple to know who to talk with about valuation. Its not a business transaction when one party is stealing from another! If this was your store, you wouldn't have to worry about banning me. Ethics are important to me so I wouldn't consider your store a place of commerence.

And, if the gun clerk threatned my life with a firearm or offered to whip my ass, well, we would take it to the next level...

Buliwyf