Dear Wasbeeman:

Excellent question and observation.

I remember the same potential complaint about the Alaska pipeline as it was being built.

Now, from the information I've received from some Alaskans, the caribou love the warm pipe.

Adaption to the environment, is what Darwin is all about.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Let me add this: here in eastern Pennsylvania, Fairmont Park in Philadelphia is overrun with white tail deer. Philly is now #6 I think in population in the U. S.

We also hit a lot of deer on Pennsylvania highways, too.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Lefforge:

quote:

More deer and elk winter range gets gobbled up each and every day by oil and gas development, there had been an almost 60% decline in the Wyoming Range mule deer herd (best herd in the nation)...no one cares.

Big mule deer and giant elk country in central Wyoming is getting all sorts of tore up by new oil fields, pipelines, in-situ uranium mining and wind turbines...no one cares.

HUNDREDS of deer and antelope get hit and killed by cars each and every year just along Trappers Route by Pinedale. WYDOT makes an over pass and people bitch about their tax money going to waste on stupid deer...no one cares.

A huge gas development is proposed for the Arminto area which will tear up some of the best antelope country in the world...no one cares.

A lot of truth to that statement. South of Wamsetter where hundreds of elk, deer and antelope winter, the landscape is littered with wells and seperators.

And exactly why huge timber wolves are not needed in such places.

Wow, Ann, some logic.

How will we survive?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Steve Laforge


Do you have wolves in the Encampment and Saratoga area? I lived in that area 23 years ago. If you just have wells at this point just be thankful you dont have wolves at the same time as they would even more decrease your elk population.


Miss that area much



Cal30

Cal30

I was working down in that area last summer and didn't hear of any locals talking about wolves YET.

However, I do know a local, well know trapper that watch three wolves kill a wild horse just north and west of there a few years ago.

And now the wolf lovers are pushing to put 1,000 wolves in Colorado by 2020, if that happens there will be wolves down around Encampment, Saratoga, New Mexico and Utah.

Steve

quote:

And exactly why huge timber wolves are not needed in such places.

Hello Ann,

I agree however, there are a few wolves already running around on the Red Desert.

Steve

I have to admit that with all the back and forth on this issue I would like to shed a little light on the issue with some help from the Minnesota DNR.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/wolves/mgmt.html

I am not against hunting wolves and I do believe that is should be part of the efforts to have a sustainable population for future generations to enjoy as much as I do.

I also give merit to the study of the effect wolves have on the deer population here in Minnesota.

I can also see how predation can help maintain a HEALTHY deer population by culling the sick and wounded deer.

I also understand that many of these studies are subjective. Many of the scat piles that we found while hunting this past year had a huge amount of deer fur in them. I am not sure if that was from scavenging hunters kills or not but it is still worth noting.

Thank you .275Rigby:

And here is the problem in a nutshell as quoted from the Minnesota DNR webpage:

"Minnesota DNR position statement: The Minnesota DNR is committed to ensuring the long-term survival of the wolf in Minnesota, and also to resolving conflicts between wolves and humans."

Where in this mission statement is the necessary discussion about maintaining a healthy population of big game "prey" animals like deer? How is the conflict between a healthy deer population and wolf population addressed? Also, why are wolves necessary at all in Minnesota? What about the migration effect of wolves into other states?

I sure as hell don't want wolves here in Pennsylvania.

That mission statement sounds like a lobbying statement for PETA.

Sorry, boys and girls, but my old legal training kicks in whenever I read BS like the above mission statement.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I like to hunt game birds pheasants, grouse, woodcock quail etc with my three setters, I feel all hawks, the pererigrine falcon, etc should be on the same **** list as the wolf!

quote:

I like to hunt game birds pheasants, grouse, woodcock quail etc with my three setters,

Imagine taking your three setters blue grouse hunting in the mountains of some parts of Wyoming. Good luck with that one. Sage grouse numbers are dwindling, after years of study, and countless sportsmans dollars spent, the G&F and F&W have concluded preditors are the #1 reason that the sage grouse could soon find its way on the endagered species list. No mention of what preditors, my guess would be eagles, hawks, and such. DUH! Their numbers have increased significantly.

quote:

Minnesota DNR position statement: The Minnesota DNR is committed to ensuring the long-term survival of the wolf in Minnesota, and also to resolving conflicts between wolves and humans."

Where in this mission statement is the necessary discussion about maintaining a healthy population of big game "prey" animals like deer? How is the conflict between a healthy deer population and wolf population addressed? Also, why are wolves necessary at all in Minnesota? What about the migration effect of wolves into other states?

Significant difference between eastern states and western. Wolves pretty much occured naturally and over a long period of time. The same was happening in Wyoming, yet the F&W denied it, even though it was proven with a dead wolf. The west's wolves were imported, and then dumped in virgin territory, growing larger than extinct, and existing native wolves, while elk body size and numbers shrink. With little or no control, except for government trappers, who do a very thorough and efficient job of killing targeted wolves.

Dear Kudu56:

Here's the problem in Pennsylvania. i'll use pheasants as an example.

Starting in the early 1980's the pheasant population began to plummet. For all intents and purposes the native pheasants are now gone.

The Pennsylvania Game Commission is re-introducing South Dakota pheasants into four new management areas. Good luck.

What caused the virtual eradication of pheasants in Pennsylvania?

1. pelletized fertilizer, which the hens ingested, that made the egg shells soft, causing them to break when she sat on them;

2. earlier cutting of hay, using rubber rollers to squeeze the water from the hay, which also crushed the young pheasants that were in nests in the fields, and

3. coyotes, foxes, feral cats, i. e. predators.

The Pennsylvania Game Commission used to have a bounty on foxes to keep the population down. I don't even remember a seeing or hearing a single coyote while hunting in the mid to late 1970's in Pennsylvania. By the late 1980's, we had lots of foxes and coyotes.

Now, if you think that wolves can't make a comeback in Pennsylvania after what 150-200 years, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

I'm not trying to insult you, but a wolf expert I met in 2002 in Rocky Mountain National Park predicted all of this wolf mess to a "T". And he likes them to boot.

My research suggests that without, trapping, poisoning and airborne assault, just hunting them won't even keep them in check as far as yearly reproduction.

How will any state game commission receive adequate funding from license sales to manage wildlife, if there aren't any deer, elk and/or moose to hunt?

Wolves don't buy hunting licenses.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Dear Kudu56:

As a follow up, I have unconfirmed reports that there are now wolves in Illinois and Indiana.

And some would like to reintroduce them into Pennsylvania:
http://www.gis.smumn.edu/GradProjects/BeermanJ.pdf

Food for thought.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

They're just like Santy Claws, they're everywhere, they're everywhere.

Just a snippet to keep the pot boiling, while the wolf at one time or another was native to all of NA, the pheasant is an exotic that was imported.

quote:

Now, if you think that wolves can't make a comeback in Pennsylvania after what 150-200 years, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Dear Yale, you have me confused with some one that is pro-wolf/pro-preditor! I am neither, no matter where they are. I see the ups and downs, and am yet, in my old age to see any good come of an up swing in numbers of any preditor group.

I was simply making a statement. I read over and over again and again, the comparison of wolves in the north central and in the west. There is no comparison.

All I am saying is two different scenerios in both wolf areas. It is a problem in both areas. And, the underlying goal of pro-wolf folks is to fight to leave populations of wolves unchecked for as long as they possibly can. The reason, if the numbers are not controlled then the wolves natural habit is to expand its range. Which is happening here, and will happen where you are. There is no doubt in my mind, that is the F&W, the liberal government, and the environuts underlying goal!

For instance, leave Wyomings wolves unchecked, they will spread to all neighboring states, which they have. That is why many hunters, ranchers,the state of Wy, and even G&F people have publicly declared, again and again, "let them run rampant in the park,(yellowstone), but, "BUT", the moment they leave the parks boundry they are nothing more than a preditor that needs shot on sight"!!! As they should be! That thought process is what has prevented our state from having a season on canadian wolves! Do I care, not really, because I know for a fact that goverment hunter/trappers are doing what hunters cant'. They are far more efficient and effective. Would a hunting season help control wolf numbers? I think the first year or two yes, after that, I doubt it. Any way, don't get your panties in a wad, I am on your side.

I see what increased numbers of birds of prey have also done to our upland birds. Not good, should eagles and hawks be shot, probably not.
But there was a time in Wyoming when there was a bounty on some birds of prey, even magpies. It is a never ending battle, and cycle. Bottom line, less opportunities for hunters of the human kind.

Moose Drool is a good candidate for my ignore poster collection.

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Starting in the early 1980's the pheasant population began to plummet. For all intents and purposes the native pheasants are now gone.

There ain't no such thing as "native" pheasants in the U.S. Like today's wolves in the West, they were "imported," but unlike the pheasants wolves were "native" in this country once.

Yep, wolves were native once, just like buffalo and indians. Outdoor writer and Mooose Drool need to come hunt in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan for deer. Oh, don't worry, you wont find any, just those f-ing wolves. Not to worry,they just delisted them so we can now shoot them! HaHaHaHaHaHa!

I wonder who forgot to teach our wolves to "maintain a healthy deer population by culling the sick and wounded deer"? A pack can and will take down almost any animal it chooses, eat the choice parts, them go take down another animal. They don't cull sick and wounded (until they wound it)!

Best,
jpj3

Dear Outdoor Writer:

I fully realize that the "native" aspect of the ringneck pheasant in Pennsylvania is a mis-nomer in general. Here, we use the term native bird to distinguish them from the stock birds that the game commission doles out for the foxes about 2-3 days before the pheasant season begins in late October.

Remembering how much fun hunting in the 1970's was and remembering how plentiful was the number of pheasants only gets me angrier, when I encounter the mis-guided approach to game management here in Pennsylvania. There are too damn many predators, and the game commission is not addressing that part of the equation.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Habitat has a huge effect on game birds, less habitat, such as grass and brush, less place to hide. With increasing crop prices and land prices, game bird hunting will only get worse. Then throw in increasing populations of preditors!

quote:

I fully realize that the "native" aspect of the ringneck pheasant in Pennsylvania is a mis-nomer in general. Here, we use the term native bird to distinguish them from the stock birds that the game commission doles out for the foxes about 2-3 days before the pheasant season begins in late October.

Yeah, I knew you meant wild birds rather than the pen-raised ones destined to be targets.

quote:

Originally posted by 69deer:
Yep, wolves were native once, just like buffalo and indians. Outdoor writer and Mooose Drool need to come hunt in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan for deer. Oh, don't worry, you wont find any, just those f-ing wolves. Not to worry,they just delisted them so we can now shoot them! HaHaHaHaHaHa!

Having wolves in state would go over a lot more if there was as season on them and there numbers could be kepted in check.

Having them protected beyound all means really pisses people off. When one can't protect yours and your own from a wild critter doesn't sit will with most people.

Only the anti's like it because they don't like people.

Are you people still bitching about wolves???

SSS

...and that's all I have to say about that.

quote:

Are you people still bitching about wolves???

You ain't seen bitching yet!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
let me ask a question: I don't live in WY but I have hunted there quite a bit. As far as I could see, the antelope, deer, and elk (and sheep and cattle for that matter) tended to ignore the oil wells. I've seen mulies bedded in the shade of pumps and I've seen antelope and mulies browsing within 100 yards of wells that were being drilled with people working around them. So how are the wells and their developement affecting the big game?
I agree wholeheartedly about the McMansions being stuck up all over and IMO, I think that's something that WY, ID, UT needs to address before it gets completely out of hand.

There is a big difference between shading up behind a well head in the fall, and trying to winter on the Mesa outside Pinedale where the snow is belly deep on a mule deer for 5 months out of the year and active drilling is going on. Not only is critical winter range being outright destroyed, but these animals cannot tolerate the constant harassment from people, noise, disturbance, etc. The 60% decine in this herd can be attribued completely to winter drilling. Research has proven this.

The minute the first snow flake hits a wintering mule deer's back, he begins the long process of starvation. Whether he makes it or not depends on what fat he burns or conserves...having to burn more fat getting out of the way of trucks or having to move off historic winter range because it's full of oil wells does not stack the cards in his favor.

What research are you quoting that attributes a 60% decline in the deer herd to winter drilling? I'll agree that a drill site looks pretty shitty for a short period of time but the final footprint is quite small.

I guess the big question in these parts is how far can you push a cattle rancher before he takes care of things his way. And now that our governor has frozen all funds to pay back for wolf predation on stock, we just might find out sooner then later.

http://www.oregonwolfeducation.org/

Most here will not miss the one that crossed the entire state recently and is now in California. According to our state officials that wolf was never seen after it was collared. So a lot of folks are wishing that it's actually his collar stuck in the grill of someone's SUV.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I'll say it again.

The wolf reintroduction has nothing to do with "returning to the old west" the skinny ass native wolf of the Sierra and Rocky mountains.

The introduction of the Canada timber wolf into the lower 48 states was done to knock down the huntable big game population. It is working.

The effect of that reduction in the big game population means that fewer licenses are sold, and hunting is diminished. Now we have fewer hunters.

Well, once the number of hunters really drops, then the gun confiscation begins.

No, I'm not nuts, just a student of history. Look to Weimar Germany, and Hitler's rise to power, and now look at present day U. K.

We're next.

Do something about it, become a life member of the NRA. I did.

By the way, what did you think "Fast and Furious" was all about? How about the four border state ATF mandated firearm sales registrations which is illegal? Funny how Hillary Clinton has had her mouth shut on this issue for the last year, but prior to that couldn't stop talking about all the illegal guns getting to the Mexican drug cartels caused by our supposedly lax gun laws here in the US.

If you let your guard down, the government will have you by the throat. What did you think 1776 was all about? King George III didn't stomp on British subjects' rights in America without his bureaucracy, now did he?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
What research are you quoting that attributes a 60% decline in the deer herd to winter drilling? I'll agree that a drill site looks pretty shitty for a short period of time but the final footprint is quite small.

Beeman-check out the following link:
Mule Deer Decline

I believe the monitoring was done cooperatively by the BLM, game and fish, and the West group (private contractor). Lots of deer collared as well as counted often.

This is the best trophy mule deer herd in the nation going down the tubes. If you love to hunt mule deer like I do, people should speak up.

quote:

Originally posted by Moose_drool:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
What research are you quoting that attributes a 60% decline in the deer herd to winter drilling? I'll agree that a drill site looks pretty shitty for a short period of time but the final footprint is quite small.

Beeman-check out the following link:
Mule Deer Decline

I believe the monitoring was done cooperatively by the BLM, game and fish, and the West group (private contractor). Lots of deer collared as well as counted often.

This is the best trophy mule deer herd in the nation going down the tubes. If you love to hunt mule deer like I do, people should speak up.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I would not believe a word from Moose Drool's drool.

This guy is no more a mule deer hunter than Nancy Pelosi is.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Here's another little tid bit about Citizens for the Wyoming Range:

http://www.victoriaadvocate.co...ing1st-ld-writethru/

You take a look and decide.

My take is Moose Drool posted a link to his PETA like organization: "Mule Deer Decline" as marked above.

This guy is a fraud.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Here's another for your perusal:

http://billingsgazette.com/new...d3-001cc4c002e0.html

At the end of the article is the Moose Drool linked group showing their dissent from the Wyoming hunters and guides groups that did a deal with PXP drillers out of Houston.

Take a gander.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Here's another for your perusal:

http://billingsgazette.com/new...d3-001cc4c002e0.html

At the end of the article is the Moose Drool linked group showing their dissent from the Wyoming hunters and guides groups that did a deal with PXP drillers out of Houston.

Take a gander.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

If you actually looked Yale, citizens for the Wyoming Range is made up of ranchers, outfitters, locals, teachers, etc. But then again you didn't read any of it.

If you lived in Wyoming, WHICH YOU DON'T, you would know Cynthia Lummis is the worst thing to ever happen here since Barbara Cubin...and she's so deep in the oil company's lobby she would sell her first born for some campaign donations.

Craig Thomas fought until he died trying to save the Wyoming Range from oil & gas development and it makes me sick hearing from folks like yourself who have no idea about anything in this part of the world unless you google it and read poorly written news articles, then think you're witty by interjecting some fact you just cut and pasted by reading said garbage...

But then again you're an out of state lawyer meddling in something which you know nothing about, in a place you've never been. But somehow you think you're an expert. It's people like YOU, who thought you knew more than we do out here, that dumped this whole wolf idea on us in the first place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my "anti hunter" ass and go eat some steaks from the cow elk I thumped this fall.

quote:

Originally posted by Moose_drool:

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Here's another for your perusal:

http://billingsgazette.com/new...d3-001cc4c002e0.html

At the end of the article is the Moose Drool linked group showing their dissent from the Wyoming hunters and guides groups that did a deal with PXP drillers out of Houston.

Take a gander.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

If you actually looked Yale, citizens for the Wyoming Range is made up of ranchers, outfitters, locals, teachers, etc. But then again you didn't read any of it.

If you lived in Wyoming, WHICH YOU DON'T, you would know Cynthia Lummis is the worst thing to ever happen here since Barbara Cubin...and she's so deep in the oil company's lobby she would sell her first born for some campaign donations.

Craig Thomas fought until he died trying to save the Wyoming Range from oil & gas development and it makes me sick hearing from folks like yourself who have no idea about anything in this part of the world unless you google it and read poorly written news articles, then think you're witty by interjecting some fact you just cut and pasted by reading said garbage...

But then again you're an out of state lawyer meddling in something which you know nothing about, in a place you've never been. But somehow you think you're an expert. It's people like YOU, who thought you knew more than we do out here, that dumped this whole wolf idea on us in the first place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my "anti hunter" ass and go eat some steaks from the cow elk I thumped this fall.

Dear Moose Drool:

Sorry to puncture your little diatribe, but I lived for four years from late 2001 on and off until 2006 just south of you on the front range in Colorado, Fort Collins, Parker, Longmont and Berthoud. Also, I worked in the summer of 1991 for a law firm in Boise, Idaho. No wolves then, and loads of moose around McCall. I chased a few with a car. I've been all over Wyoming from Cody to Rawlins, Cheyenne through Laramie. Windy as hell, dry as hell, and the beautiful as hell.

Dick Cheney is one of my favorite politicians. I'l bet you don't like him.

Funny how your little discussion about wolves, etc. never discusses wolves, but immediately dumps the reduction in the mule deer herd in Wyoming on human encrouchment.

So where do you live in Wyoming?

I have friends in Cody, Wyoming and in Filer, Idaho who say that the wolves have decimated the mule deer, elk and Shiras moose population. Oil exploration ain't killing the deer and elk off.

As to your cow elk dinner, did you get it on Van Ness Street in San Francisco? I'll bet you did.

C'mon' pal fess up, you're a PETA baby, aren't ya'.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:

quote:

Originally posted by Moose_drool:

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Here's another for your perusal:

http://billingsgazette.com/new...d3-001cc4c002e0.html

At the end of the article is the Moose Drool linked group showing their dissent from the Wyoming hunters and guides groups that did a deal with PXP drillers out of Houston.

Take a gander.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

If you actually looked Yale, citizens for the Wyoming Range is made up of ranchers, outfitters, locals, teachers, etc. But then again you didn't read any of it.

If you lived in Wyoming, WHICH YOU DON'T, you would know Cynthia Lummis is the worst thing to ever happen here since Barbara Cubin...and she's so deep in the oil company's lobby she would sell her first born for some campaign donations.

Craig Thomas fought until he died trying to save the Wyoming Range from oil & gas development and it makes me sick hearing from folks like yourself who have no idea about anything in this part of the world unless you google it and read poorly written news articles, then think you're witty by interjecting some fact you just cut and pasted by reading said garbage...

But then again you're an out of state lawyer meddling in something which you know nothing about, in a place you've never been. But somehow you think you're an expert. It's people like YOU, who thought you knew more than we do out here, that dumped this whole wolf idea on us in the first place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my "anti hunter" ass and go eat some steaks from the cow elk I thumped this fall.

Dear Moose Drool:

Sorry to puncture your little diatribe, but I lived for four years from late 2001 on and off until 2006 just south of you on the front range in Colorado, Fort Collins, Parker, Longmont and Berthoud. Also, I worked in the summer of 1991 for a law firm in Boise, Idaho. No wolves then, and loads of moose around McCall. I chased a few with a car. I've been all over Wyoming from Cody to Rawlins, Cheyenne through Laramie. Windy as hell, dry as hell, and the beautiful as hell.

Dick Cheney is one of my favorite politicians. I'l bet you don't like him.

Funny how your little discussion about wolves, etc. never discusses wolves, but immediately dumps the reduction in the mule deer herd in Wyoming on human encrouchment.

So where do you live in Wyoming?

I have friends in Cody, Wyoming and in Filer, Idaho who say that the wolves have decimated the mule deer, elk and Shiras moose population. Oil exploration ain't killing the deer and elk off.

As to your cow elk dinner, did you get it on Van Ness Street in San Francisco? I'll bet you did.

C'mon' pal fess up, you're a PETA baby, aren't ya'.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Wow, you lived along the front range off an on for almost four years!?!?

Is that suppose to impress me? You know what life is like in western Wyoming because you once lived along the front range of Colorado??? And then in Boise Idaho??

I don't live in town, but it's between the Little Horn and Middle Fork of the Powder River.

oil and gas production/exploration is not killing elk and deer.

it is however, providing billions of dollars to USA economies.