I have a couple of relatives that have suffered considerable shoulder damage to their shooting side that has affected their ability to shoot a rifle. Neither can tolerate the recoil from their deer rifles any more. One uses a 94 Winchester 30-30 and the other a Savage 99 .243. Neither a powerhouse or high recoil setup.

My question is, are there cartridges out there that would allow them to hunt deer with limited range (up to 100 yards) and less recoil? My main concern is deer stopping power with the least chance of wounding. Recoil pads have not helped, brakes are not desireable and handguns are out of the question.

The Whisper series? Light loads in a ???? I'm kind of at a loss. Thanks for any advice.

My buddy just had a 6x45 (.223 necked up to hold a 6mm bullet) built. It shoots a 70 grain bullet around 3100 fps. He killed a large mule deer doe at about 200 yds. One shot to the shoulder and it died instantly. He also shot a nice buck antelope at about 150 yds and it dropped on the spot also. It has absolutely no recoil. Very accurate as well.

223Rem w/64gr PP's..............

I have a 44m mag Marlin lever that has a light recoil, pretty quite. 4x scope a possibility.

Assuming that the damage is only to their shooting shoulder, they could try switching. If righty try lefty. I'd start shooting on the oposite side with a 22Lr. If they could make the transition they would have more options.

Your idea of the Whisper series sounds like a good one. I've never used them, but I have a friend who loves his for letting his daughter use, she's 8 and it doesn't phase her.
Yardbird

The only other way beside going to a lighter cartridge is to increase the weight of the rifle. I also have to wonder, is it feasible to switch to the other shoulder? Easier said than done of course.

Something on the order of the 6MM x 223 or even the .223 with heavy bullets would work with careful shots.

Jerry

How about a 45LC Levergun with 250 XTP's or 255 SWC hard casts at around 1400 fps very little recoil- and should take dear quite well out to 100 yds. If they need to scope it go with Win 94 20" barrel Trails End.

22-250 with Nosler partition or other appropriate bullet. It does work just fine.

Wow, thanks for all of the quick responses. I hadn't heard of the 6x45, that sounds interesting. Can you set back and rechamber a 243? I doubt it but had to ask. I like the idea of cheap brass from the 223 since my varmit rifle is a surplus mauser done over in a 223.

I guess the 223 would be an option too as they are both extremely capable shots. Would give me an excuse to buy a CZ as well.

Shooting lefty isn't really an option for either of them, he is over 80 years old and the other is in her late 50's. Can't teach these two new tricks but don't want them to have to watch others leave camp in the morning while they stay in.

Thanks again, all suggestions are very much appreciated.

I'd buy a CZ 527 in 7.62x39. Go to cz-usa.com to take a look at them. Mine shoots Winchester factory ammo SP's at 2350 fps with a 123 grain bullet. I don't think you can beat the combination of low recoil, bullet performance and a slick little carbine. The rifle even has a big fat recoil pad on it. My is a m.o.a. shooter and with the set trigger, accurate off hand shooting is just plain easy. Put a 4x Leupold compact on the rifle and have at it. I buy Wolf Brand COPPER JACKETED (not the copper washed) hollow points for practice. I bought 1000 for only $88. I've shot a couple of hogs with these ultra-cheap bullets and somewhat surprisingly they killed 'em dead if you put the bullet behind the shoulder. Not accurate as the Winchester loads, though.

[ 02-28-2003, 00:43: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

I would think a std. REm. M700 in .260rem. would work well. Just enough increase in bullet weight to handle deer size game better than a .243 (JMHO). Recoil is very light. Another thought would be something in a semi-auto maybe in .270?

[ 02-28-2003, 00:45: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

This 6x45 was built by Story as well. He built a 300 for me too. He does great work and his guns SHOOT!!!!

The 6 x 47 (.222 REmington Magnum necked to .243) is a "semi-factory" chambering, having been legitimized in the Remington 40X, and the 6 x 45 (.223 necked to .243) was once chambered by Kimber, if memory serves me correctly. These are wonderful little cartridges were originally designed for bench work, but they make excellent light deer rifles. Too bad someone hasn't picked up on this potential market and built some factory rifles and ammo.

Similarly, John Wooters dreamed up the .25 Copperhead, a .257 built on a .222 (or .223 or .222 Magnum case, I can't recall). Likewise, this little number is a first-rate small-to-medium game and large varmint cartridge which can be chambered in a neat little action like the Sako L461, Mini MarkX, or CZ 527.

When I first read your post the first thing that came to my mind was a 6x45 (6mm-223), 87 grain bullets, 10 inch twist. You can build one pretty easily by rebarreling a Mini Mauser, a Sako L461, a Ruger #1 or #3 or a Brno ZKK-601 originally set up for the 223.

Try the NEF Handi rifle in .357 magnum. Nice and light, good to about 100 yards with the right ammo, almost no recoil, inexpensive, and they are very accurate.

[ 02-28-2003, 03:55: Message edited by: The Slug ]

As JudgeG said, a CZ527 in 7.62 X 39 is an option. I'm going to try one rebbled to 6.5 PPC next season. 2650 to 2800 fps for 120 grs.

250 Savage

Any rifle chambered for:
357 Mag
6x45
243 Win
260 Rem
And yes, tons of deer in Texas taken with 22/250 each year but nothing wrong with larger frontal diameter bullet.

Why not try something in a 260 7mm.08 308 in a semi auto, most shotgun user's like semi auto because of recoil. that and a good recoil pad or recoil surpressor in the stock.

223,22-250,250-3000, 300 Savage?

[ 02-28-2003, 09:36: Message edited by: DOCTOR LOU ]

Marlin Cowboy rifle would be my suggestion. They are available in 44 mag or 357 mag among others. Large octagon bbls, light recoil and plenty bullet to get the job done reliably with little meat damage. Classic fun to shoot rifles too.

Get a BAR Safari in 243 Win. The rifle will be around 8.5 lbs all-up. That weight + gas operation + a light kicking cartridge = comfortable shooting.

You guys have given me a lot to think about. Just to make a couple of things clearer, since the 243 is too much recoil, I would kind of rule out anything larger than that (260, etc.) Also, we hunt in PA so that rules out all semi autos. I will do some research into the x45 and x47 cartridges, as this is the first that I have heard of them.

I do have a Marlin 1894 44 mag sitting in a closet that I could load down that has been largely forgotten. The reason I forgot it was that, amazingly enough, it provided the worst beating I have taken in a rifle when used back in the '80s with 240 grain factory loads. Bet it would be really good with 180's or so.

Thanks again, I will be doing a lot of searching on those already mentioned. Feel free to make more suggestions all are appreciated.

The 7.62X39 may be the best cartridge for the situation. There are various rifles made in that cartridge and perhaps a muzzle brake could be considered.

[ 02-28-2003, 08:33: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

I think the Mini-30 makes an awesome woods rifle for whitetail but apparently they aren't able to be utilized in PA.

How about a 250 Savage, with a muzzle brake and some sort of recoil pad attached?

ZM

I have taken a big buck and a mature doe with a .223 bolt action Cooper. Each got one shot through the heart at 200 yards and died promptly, with no followup required. A tough bullet, like the Nosler partition or the trophy bonded in .224 caliber of 55 or 60 grains, will make a great deer round out to 200 yards, with good shot placement.

I am usually an "Elmer" type, but it sure was fun shooting deer with the .223.

Actually my deer were killed with cheap "remanufactured" soft point ammo that was bought in bulk bags of 100 cartridges. I found them to be as accurate as anything, one-holers in the Cooper, and the jacketed semi-spitzer bullets seemed tough enough, and proved me right.

Get the relatives with tender shoulders a gentle and deadly .223 for deer. The premium partition or Bear Claw type bullets would be best. I wish I could recommend a GSC HV, but I have yet to see my bullets arrive from the latest order ...

John Barsness had a recent piece in Rifle magazine where he described his wife's similar predicament with some arthritis in her shoulder.

She tried the .260 and 6.5x55 but couldn't feel much difference from her longtime favorite .270.

She liked the .250 Savage but wanted a flatter trajectory, so she ended up with the .257 Roberts.

For your relatives' range limitation I would try the .250 Savage, maybe with reduced powder charges or lighter bullets like the Barnes X.

I would also see if they can get their doctors to prescribe or approve some physical therapy or strength training, it really might help. One of my shoulders is bad (my non-shooting side, fortunately) and the less I do with it, the worse it gets.

John

Well, I'd like to chime in as I can still see some holes in the suggestions.

First, if the 243 is too much, we are indeed very limited. Increasing the weight of the rifle is a possibility. Installing a brake is a possibility; and there IS a company that makes a muzzle brake that ALSO reduces the sound (it is a "barrel around the barrel" design. Contact Safe Arms Inc., Dept. SA, 1240 Riverview Dr., Garland, UT 84312; 801/257-7472. They work well enough that they are regulated by BATF (as they have to limit sound reduction to avoid being a "silencer").

Second, take a look at cartridges like the 6ppc, 223 (with 53 gr. Xbullets or Trophy Bonded bullets), the 6PPC or the 6BR.

Third, to really solve your problem, handloading will likely be in your future. You can take standard calibers down three notches in recoil by starting using fast (shotgun) powders. Check in the reloading forum (couple of days back) for the topic on quiet loads. HTH, Dutch.

I have two 6x45's, one on a mini markX, the other a Sako 461. The Sako used to be a 6x47, but I rebarreled and converted to 6x45. Why? Because none of the small actions have a magazine long enough to function with the longer ammo. If you go with 6x47, you must use a full size short action. I think these are both super rounds.

That said, I believe everyone has missed the obvious. Any of these suggestions (6x45, 6x47, 6 BR) will require handloading. Why not simply handload the .243 you have to the same level? Recoil will be the same, they will be familiar with the gun and you have the option of full power in the future.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned a 7-30 waters (unless I missed it). If you aren't familiar with it, it's a .30-30 necked down to 7mm. The lighter bullets available in 7mm should help reduce recoil. I haven't shot one in a rifle but I shot a hundgun chambered for this round and it was very tolerable, and (as much as I hate to admit it) I'm pretty recoil sensitive.

Hope this helps,
Bob

If .22 centerfires are legal in PA, then, as mentioned by others, a .223 with a quality bullet would be an acceptable choice. I've met a few hunters down here in Alabama that swear by the .223 with a Barnes X-bullet for small whitetails. No first-hand experience though.

I would think a reduced load for the .243 Win. would be the most economical route, unless you just want to rebarrel something for one of the short 6mm's.

On Hodgdon's web site, under Youth Loads, they show an 80 gr Hornady over 28.5 gr H4895 for 2704 fps, which cuts the recoil of a .243 in half:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/youth/243win_y.php

Good luck,

John

As mentioned by others on this string, be careful with the smaller calibers. Many states have a minimum caliber, and also require centerfire. In Kansas, minimum is .23 caliber, and centerfire is required.

IMHO hunting big game like deer with a .22 rimfire is unethical anyway.

I think the idea about retraining themselves to use the other sholder is best. That way they can use rifles that still have enough stopping power.

Tim

I've read the entire topic. Frankly, having used many of the cartridges mentioned in the rifles commonly available, I don't think there has been much help actually offered.

There is a whole range of TCU cartridges, 6mm, .25, 6.5mm and 7mm. A contender chambered in one of these stocked in a Rynite modified to increase weight to about 7.5 lbs (or more if necessary) with scope seems to be a pretty cost effective alternative. OR even cheaper is to load that .243 down to 6mm TCU levels AND add some lead weight in the butt and forearm.

However, I suspect that if the shoulder damage is as extensive as you say, it is difficult for them to lift weight as well as withstand recoil. Thus, increasing gun weight will rapidly reach a point that is unacceptable.

I don't think that the .44 Mag, .45 Colt or other cartridges will reduce recoil in the arms available to tolerable levels. Is the .223 even legal in their state? It isn't here in VA but is in TX.

You are to be commended for doing so much to keep hunters hunting. I hope that I get that much help should I get to the point that I need it.

Once again, thank you all for the great responses. In PA, 22 cal centerfires are legal to hunt with. My grandmother filled the freezer most years with Remington 660 .222 and an Aunt still does the same. I tend to lean toward a little more gun if at all possible.

Hobie - you were right on that it is tougher for them to raise a rifle with the damage, especially my great-uncle who is over 80. Part of a tree that he was cutting fell on him a couple of years ago. Yes, I hope to be half as tough and active when I am that age. So, adding weight to a rifle is not really an option.

I will look into the youth loads for the 243. I would just like to make sure that there isn't anything out there with equal or less recoil that can hit a little harder on the other end.

Thank you again, and more comments are welcome.

As another poster stated, a Browning Bar in .243 with a premium recoil pad would get the job done with less recoil than any bolt gun mentioned above. The gas system eats up most of the recoil and a good recoil pad would soak up what the rifle doesn't. Terry

[ 02-28-2003, 21:12: Message edited by: TC1 ]

As has been stated, load their current familiar rifles down.

You may have them try a PAST magnum recoil shield with the 243. It is worn on the shooting shoulder and made of sorbethane.