Let's get right down to the bottom line on this.

Is there really a need for a .338 Win Mag. if one already has a great .300 Win Mag.?

Think about those mixed bag hunts in B.C., Alaska and Alberta...from Elk to Moose to Caribou to Sheep to Mountain (interior) Grizzly.

For example, if you're set up with your .300 Win Mag. shooting 200gr. Northforks @ 2900 fps, is there really a need to purchase a .338 Win Mag. to end up shooting 225gr. Northforks @2900 fps ?

Yes, I am sure we'd all feel more comfortable hunting with a .338 Win Mag in Grizzly country, but for those of you who've done it, is a .338 Win Mag necessary or will a .300 Win Mag and your choice of 200gr. bullets do the job just as well on a mixed bag hunt that may include Grizzly?

Conversely, if you had only a .300 Win Mag and a .375 H&H, would you make the jump up to .375 and 270gr TSX or Failsafes for a mixed bag, including possible Mountain Grizzly or would you still stick with the .300 Win Mag. and 200gr premium bullets?

Well I don't own a 338, I stepped from 300 up to 375. What I guess the 338 is good for is 250 grain bullets at 2700 fps, or so. A little more frontal area, a little more bullet weight.

I hunt in grizzly country every year.I carry a 300ultramag and 180gr bullets and am not worried about being able to defend myself against grizzlies.

I do not have a .300 Win. and do not expect to get one. I have had three .300 H&H rifles, all P-64 Mod. 70s and would not hesitate to hunt in Grizzly country with a .300-200 NF, NP, TBBC or whatever. I have hunted in Grizzly country since 1964 and frequently use lesser cartridges to do so.

I vastly prefer the .338 Win. with 250 premium bullets to any other magnum rifle, although I am just now tuning my final P-64-.375 H&H after putting a Borden-Rimrock stock on it. But, this is for a resident hunter who would use the same rifle/load as a working tool when employed in resource management in Grizzly country; the parameters for this are a bit different than for a non-res. trophy hunter on an expensive(very!) trip, usually only one in a lifetime.

For B.C., I kinda think that the .300 Maggy is close to ideal for most serious hunters, in fact, I was just checking out a Kimber Montana in .300 WSM plus a Leupy VXIII 2.5-8 yesterday and with Conetrols, this will weigh about 7-5 all up. This rifle-scope combo is as close to ideal for most hunting here as current technology provides and the price (in CDN. $$$) of about $2800-2900, tax in. is doable for most hunters/gunuts.

So, I would suggest the .300 Mag. as probably your best bet and I would prefer to use a matched pair of those for all my hunting and skip the .338, .375 and so forth, unless you are, like me, a terminal case of gunaholism...........

The 300, 338, and 375 are all great rounds.
I use the 300 and the 375, although I did have a 340 WBY for a while.
However I have recommended the 338 to several hunting friends. Most reciently to a buddy that will be hunting elk with me in WY this Oct.
He already had a good 30-06 and thought about getting a 300 Mag. If you are stepping up from a 30-06 for elk and bigger game the 338 with its 250 grain bullets is a great choice.
The 338 less recoil than the 375 H&H, at least if feels that way to me.
I think a 300 is fine for Grizzly. If I was hunting brown bear close up I would prefer the 9,3x74R, 338, or the 375.
If I had a good 300, and wanted to step up I would probably go to the 375 H&H.

A 200gr does a fine job on a Bison @ 180yds. But I am shopping for a .375 H&H Mag, just because.

I have never been a .30 cal fan. I agree w/ 450#2, if you are going to step up in recoil form an 06, might as well get the bigger hole that comes w/ it & get a .338wm. For smaller big game, a 200gr @ almost 3000fps works great, 250gr @ 2700fps for bigger stuff in close. The .375h&h is a great one rifle for hunting the world, but if could have the choice, I would want a .338wm for general big game & a .404 or .416 for the bignastybitey things.

IMO the 300 mag with a 200 premium would be just fine for that kind of hunting.

If I was to choose between the 300 and 338 I would be choosing between the 250 grain 338 and the 200 grain 300.

300 would be just fine if that's what you like. A friend of mine here in town has shot every N. American game animal with a 7 mag, including bis bear and bison. Make your shot and thet all work.

More frontal area.....bigger hole and bigger hole when expanded.

quote:

Think about those mixed bag hunts in B.C., Alaska and Alberta...from Elk to Moose to Caribou to Sheep to Mountain (interior) Grizzly.

For the animals cited and with a good premium bullet, you're comments are well-reasoned. But there is definetly an advantage to a 250gr 338 over any 30 cal bullet when it comes to the coasta; brownies. jorge

If you are looking for the bigger hammer--- A 300 mag can shoot up to only a 250 grain bullet(barnes original) and with the 338 you can go to a 300 grainer (Woodleigh). In my mind, the 300 does not have the killing power that the 338 does. Frankly my question would be --what does the 300 offer that a 30-06 does not. I see a significant difference between the 338 and the 300.

Adressing the question directly, most anything done by the .300 will be done with more aplomb with the .338. That said, for North America either would suffice for most anything though I'd feel more at ease with the .338 if facing things with bad attitudes and/or teeth. The more is better theory...

The .338 Win. is one of the truly greatest cartridges ever put on the market IMO. The Rifleman's Cartridge, for problems big and small.

A .300 mag is just about as perfect as you can get for an all around rifle. They are definitely more than adequate for the big bears. When I lived in Alaska the natives used .30/06's and even lighter calibers. One guy killed a maneating polar bear that decided to make an unarmed native his breakfast. He got it with a .30/06! IMO you don't need a .338 for the big bears. If you want a .338 go for it and enjoy, but you can do just as good with a .300. My first hunting rifle was a .300 H&H and I had it for 20+ years before I rebarreled it.

I couldn't agree more with DD and the .338 is the ONE cartridge I would pick, if limited to one rifle. But, it does kick and some people simply cannot cope with that,so, the .300 may be a better choice for them. I don't see much, if any increase in killing power between the two and the last Grizzly I saw shot was with a .300-180 NP, bang-dead. However, I was alone in very dense bush near this kill site, trying to sneal up on these bugling Elk; with Grizzly shit on every horse and game trail, the .338-250 just felt better.

The beauty of the 338 WM is its ability to work well in a barrel as short as 21"... the 300 WM needs at leat 23" and 24" is better. If I ever feel the need for a 338 WM again it'll have a 21" barrel.

For me a 30-06 suffices. I just haven't seen enough difference in any of these caretridges on the game I hunt to chose a heavier, harder kicking rifle.

As Jorge stated, the 338 Win. Mag. really comes into it's own with 250 gr. bullets at 2700 fps. There are certain hunts where that 338/250 gr. package is superior to the 300 Win. Mag., no question about it. And if you choose your load carefully, the 338 Win. Mag. comes very close to 300 Win. Mag. trajectory out to 400 yds. for open-country hunts.

So maybe my own personal version of this question is, why bother with the 300 Win. Mag. if you own a 338 Win.? Personally, I still like the 300 Win. Mag. better as an all-around cartridge. It's less fussy, easier to reload and work with, still shoots a bit flatter at the longer ranges, doesn't kick as hard, has a wider selection of bullets (the same as for the 30-06), ammo and brass are more available, and, well, it's just my favorite cartridge, with the 338 Win. in second-place.

There are those in my neck of elk country who think that 300 Win. Mag. bullets bounce off of elk or otherwise fail. This notion makes me laugh, because most of these guys haven't shot much of anything, and often very few (if any) elk. Those that have had problems, if they're honest, can usually trace the 'failure' to attempting shots into the next county, poor bullet-placement, or abysmal bullet performance. I have shot one more elk with the 338 Win. than I have the 300 Win., and for the life of me I can't see a dime's worth of differrence between the two. Both kill elk very, very dead, very, very fast with good shooting and good bullets.

It always surprises local guys who've never shot anything but western deer and elk that I've cleanly and quickly taken a number of species that weigh twice as much as the biggest bull elk that walks this continent with a 300 Win. Mag. and 180 gr. bullets, plus dangerous game that can kill you. There's no magic to this except for good bullets well-placed.

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quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
....There are those in my neck of elk country who think that 300 Win. Mag. bullets bounce off of elk or otherwise fail. This notion makes me laugh, because most of these guys haven't shot much of anything, and often very few (if any) elk. Those that have had problems, if they're honest, can usually trace the 'failure' to attempting shots into the next county, poor bullet-placement, or abysmal bullet performance......

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
Let's get right down to the bottom line on this.

Is there really a need for a .338 Win Mag. if one already has a great .300 Win Mag.?

Think about those mixed bag hunts in B.C., Alaska and Alberta...from Elk to Moose to Caribou to Sheep to Mountain (interior) Grizzly.

For example, if you're set up with your .300 Win Mag. shooting 200gr. Northforks @ 2900 fps, is there really a need to purchase a .338 Win Mag. to end up shooting 225gr. Northforks @2900 fps ?

Yes, I am sure we'd all feel more comfortable hunting with a .338 Win Mag in Grizzly country, but for those of you who've done it, is a .338 Win Mag necessary or will a .300 Win Mag and your choice of 200gr. bullets do the job just as well on a mixed bag hunt that may include Grizzly?

Conversely, if you had only a .300 Win Mag and a .375 H&H, would you make the jump up to .375 and 270gr TSX or Failsafes for a mixed bag, including possible Mountain Grizzly or would you still stick with the .300 Win Mag. and 200gr premium bullets?

Both the .300WM and the .338WM are as popular in Alaska. The main difference between the two is that that .338 does its best where the .300 stops on bullet weights. The .300 stops at 220 grains, and the .338 does its best from that point on.

The .338WM is my favorite in Alaska, because I like to use heavy bullets from 250 grains to 300.

I've often felt the same way when folks talk about the 210 gr partition in the .338. I can shoot a 200 gr in my .300 mag, so I want a heavier bullet to use in my .338...that's why I got it!

The 338 WM just puts a bigger hole in the game it was meant for. With a 250 gr. NP I would take on anything short of an elephant. My sentiments are almost exactly like Allen's but I would pick the 338 as my first choice and the 300 as my second.

Regards,

Mark

The .338's big advantage is in heavy bullets... When you want to launch a 275gr Swift A-Frame or 300gr Woodleigh Weldcore the .300 Win Mag falls off the map at that point.

True, if I had my .300 Win Mag with 200gr bullets at 2900 vs my .338 with 225's at 2900 there's not an earth-shattering change there to be worth mentioning. It's in the heavy-weights that the .338 clearly shows it's superiority.

I always shoot heavy-for-caliber bullets. I wouldn't bother using 235gr bullets in my .375 personally. What's the point? Why not use lighter round if you're using lighter bullets? Yes, I suppose flexibility is the answer for the guys with a small rifle battery, but my battery has a handful of rifles that each shoot one load and each has it's purpose/category of game it's intended for. Nearly all shoot the heaviest version of the bullet available for that caliber.

I love my 338, and if you are going to have one rifle to handle all the larger game in North America, I think it is as good as it gets, especially if big coastal brownies are included. However, if you already have a 300, I'd step over the 338 and go up to a 375 or 416 (+).

Gents;

What impresses me most about this thread is the fortunate state of affairs we all enjoy.

The discussion has brought in mentions of everything from the .30-06 to the .375 and 9.3x74. I can tell you this: ALL of the mentioned calibers would work for any of us, for any of the roles we need, given our own choice of load and bullet.

We are blessed to be able to pick and choose from among these fine cartridges, and among the great bullets available today. I would happily take my .30-06, with TSX or Partition bullets, after anything in North America. I would PREFER taking my .338 or .416 or .404 for the bigger (meaner) stuff, but my '06 has cleanly killed big moose and other large critters, and it will kill other biggies, too. The neat thing is, WE HAVE A CHOICE!

The difference between the .300s and the .338s is certainly there, but in all honesty, the difference isn't all that great. For my part, I remember that bullet weight is a constant while velocity is a diminishing variable. Given a velocity of 2700 or so, I'll pick the round that will drive the heaviest-possible EFFICIENTLY-SHAPED bullet at that speed. The speed is sufficient for easy hits at 200 yards, and that is as far as my "ideal shot" ambitions extend.

At times, my problem in choosing among my rifles is analagous to the golfer puzzling over which club to use for a particular shot. That's because I HAVE a variety of rifles. If deciding which one to buy, that's a different question.

.300 vs .338? With my taste for heavier bullets/moderate speed, if I were buying a new rifle the .338 would win.....but ONLY because I have a wonderful .30-06 to carry the load one "notch" down in weight and energy! This '06, BTW, will deliver a 200 Nosler Partition at 2750 chronograhed fps....almost a young .300 H&H. (I don't own a .300 right now, but have had a couple in the past. They worked fine, which is surely no surprise.)

Lucky us!

I primarily use a 270 for small stuff and a 375 for bigger animals. But on a combo hunt to Alaska or BC. I would use the 270 or my new (to me) Pre 64 in 300 H&H. If I think I need a larger caliber then 270 or 30 then the 375 is my choice. Interior griz just aren't that heavy. A 350 lb boar is a big one. The 375 is definately more then the 338 and it is bush legal for DG in Africa. I like a rifle to cover as wide a range of animals as possible. This will be herecy to many but to me the 338 is neither fish nor fowl. Too heavy for mountain hunting (compared to a 270, 06, or 300) and not legal for dangerous game in Africa.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I primarily use a 270 for small stuff and a 375 for bigger animals. But on a combo hunt to Alaska or BC. I would use the 270 or my new (to me) Pre 64 in 300 H&H. If I think I need a larger caliber then 270 or 30 then the 375 is my choice. Interior griz just aren't that heavy. A 350 lb boar is a big one. The 375 is definately more then the 338 and it is bush legal for DG in Africa. I like a rifle to cover as wide a range of animals as possible. This will be herecy to many but to me the 338 is neither fish nor fowl. Too heavy for mountain hunting (compared to a 270, 06, or 300) and not legal for dangerous game in Africa.

465H&H

Keep in mind that the average interior grizzly may be smaller than coastal browns, but very large grizzlies are killed every now and then. For example, a guy from Anchorage killed a record grizzly perhaps 9 years ago. The bear measure 9'6", which is not necessarily small.

Ray,

Thanks for the info on bear weights. About 30 years ago someone poached a griz either in or on the border of Yellowatone National Park that weighed just over 1,000 lbs. Yes, big interior griz exist but are very, very, rare!

465H&H

Many mature Grizzly boars in the south-eastern part of B.C. where I am originally from weigh about twice as much as the figure given and 900 lb. specimens occur every so often. The coastal bears are much larger, but, there are big ones all through the Province.

Kutenay, I guess sort of like black bears...in Quebec, average weight is about 200 pounds, but they are sometimes taken over 400 pounds with some as high as 600 pounds+. Out west of here and down south, upper weights generally increase...

Bears have to be one of the animals whose weight varies the most.

Thanks for all your contributions on this topic.

Bottom line seems to be:

If you already have a .300 Win Mag loaded with 200gr. premium bullets, use it for everything in mixed bag hunts, including Grizzly. If hunting Alaskan Brown Bears and Grizzlies specifically, then buy a .338 or .375.

If you already have a .338 and not a .300 mag, AND you're hunting mainly large big game, there is really no need for a .300, unless you want one.

how about shooting 300gr. bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:

Keep in mind that the average interior grizzly may be smaller than coastal browns, but very large grizzlies are killed every now and then. For example, a guy from Anchorage killed a record grizzly perhaps 9 years ago. The bear measure 9'6", which is not necessarily small.

Exactly! The need for big power in grizz country is so overblown, although even the smaller ones can be some tenacious buggers as well. Something more than a 300 is certianly prudent for the big coastal brownies though.

Last night while doing my nightly run through southwestern Wyoming I was thinking that may be the place for me, with any luck whatsoever Wyoming will soon become "the other" place to hunt Grizz.

quote:

Originally posted by bill439:
how about shooting 300gr. bullets?

Well, the "slow and heavy" principle is not a bad one. For example, the .338 Sabi, which is the African version of the .338-06 is based on that principle. The idea is to use a heavy bullet launched at a modest velocity (sort of a 400-grain slug out of a .45-70) to attain deep penetration.

The .375 H&h with .300-grain bullets is outstanding, as well as a .338WM with 275-grain to 300-grain bullets. The only difference is that the .338 will produce around 2,400 fps with the 300 grainer, while the .375 will be a little faster.

The 338 with a 210 gr. Nosler at 3005, or a 300 gr. Woodleigh at 2450 is a pretty impressive round....I have shot Cape Buffalo with the 300 gr. Woodleigh whereas I would not use a 300 on them..I guess the .338 outclasses the 300 on the bigger stuff and equals it on the lighter stuff...I have both a 338 and a 300 H&H, For hunting in the USA I doubt that it would make much difference...I would prefer the 338 on the big bears..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 338 with a 210 gr. Nosler at 3005, or a 300 gr. Woodleigh at 2450 is a pretty impressive round....I have shot Cape Buffalo with the 300 gr. Woodleigh whereas I would not use a 300 on them..I guess the .338 outclasses the 300 on the bigger stuff and equals it on the lighter stuff...I have both a 338 and a 300 H&H, For hunting in the USA I doubt that it would make much difference...I would prefer the 338 on the big bears..

Of course it is Ray. Just look at the .375 Taylor's ballistics. A relatively small case with .375-caliber bullets that can almost duplicate the ballistics of the great .375 H&H.

Interior griz just aren't that heavy. A 350 lb boar is a big one.

465H&H[/QUOTE]
Hmmmmmm.... I have guided 14 interior bears,(and been in camps where another 10 or so were taken) from the Yukon and B.C. and I am gonna say with a fair bit of certainty, that every single one of them were over 350 lbs, except for maybe one, that was a young boar!! With a few of them being big enough that 3 guys had a hell of a time moving around for skinning.
But regardless, I have both above calibers, and love them both, but after the extensive amount of guiding I have done, added to the amount of game I have taken with both, I would say that the .300 Win. Mag is theee most popular cal. brought up for any of the game, I guide here in Alberta, but in northern B.C., and the Yukon, the .338 definately wins out on the popularity contest!

quote:

Originally posted by cmfic1:
Interior griz just aren't that heavy. A 350 lb boar is a big one.

465H&H

Hmmmmmm.... I have guided 14 interior bears,(and been in camps where another 10 or so were taken) from the Yukon and B.C. and I am gonna say with a fair bit of certainty, that every single one of them were over 350 lbs, except for maybe one, that was a young boar!! With a few of them being big enough that 3 guys had a hell of a time moving around for skinning.
But regardless, I have both above calibers, and love them both, but after the extensive amount of guiding I have done, added to the amount of game I have taken with both, I would say that the .300 Win. Mag is theee most popular cal. brought up for any of the game, I guide here in Alberta, but in northern B.C., and the Yukon, the .338 definately wins out on the popularity contest![/QUOTE]

I have seen some huge interior grizzly, from afar, and big enough for me to be very cautious. last year I saw another for a fraction of time, walking away from the gut pile of a moose I had killed a couple of days before. This is the first time I have seen this particular bear in the middle of the day, but three years ago I measured the its tracks on the trail, and the front pad measured 7-1/2" across.

The guy who killed the record bear I mentioned above, told me that he was looking for a larger one he had seen, and that this one had charged him. he shot it twice with 300-grain slugs from his .375 H&H. He told me that the tracks of the first bear were huge, but he hasn't seen the bear again.

I"m not trying to be a smart-@$$ but if there were two guys walking through a forest and one had a .300 WM and the other had a .338 WM, there would be a lot of bad odds against any type of game getting away.

Aply the basic laws of balistics to the question
1. bigger bullet makes bigger hole

2. getting shot sucks

i think number one is the answer here

quote:

Originally posted by cmfic1:
But regardless, I have both above calibers, and love them both, but after the extensive amount of guiding I have done, added to the amount of game I have taken with both, I would say that the .300 Win. Mag is theee most popular cal. brought up for any of the game, I guide here in Alberta, but in northern B.C., and the Yukon, the .338 definately wins out on the popularity contest!

Aside from popularity, have you noticed a difference in on-game performance between the two?

My hypothesis is that there is probably little to no difference- shot placement being key.

I went the 338 route a while back, shot a couple of Elk with it and interestingly enough they didn't go down any quicker than those hit with my 270. I then got a 300 Win mag which greatly reduced felt recoil. I really like the 200 grain bullets in this rifle and the fact that impact velocities are high enough at ranges of more than 400 yards to effectivly expand hunting weight bullets which is an iffy thing with 250 grain bullets in a 338 not to mention the loopy trajectory.