I'm looking at the regulations for whitetail hunting in Ohio and it says:

Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50. Shotguns and straight-walled cartridge rifles can be loaded with no more than three shells in the chamber and magazine combined.

The only rifle that I already own that I think that I can use is a 458 Win Mag. or does the belt disqualify it?

It looks like that I am going to have to figure out how to block the Magazine to two rounds, also.

What say ye Buckeyes?

Not that you should have to run out and buy a new firearm just to hunt a deer, but when I was a POW in the Ohio River Valley I bought a TC Encore 15 pistol in 460 SW.

Back then I do not think rifles were legal. I think there was a maximum cartridge length limit as well.

If there is no cartridge OAL max, the 458 WM should be fine, but the only way to be protected would be to get an AG opinion or a memo from the Ohio State Police/Fish and Game( if they will give you one) on the belt issue. Note I said memo as in writing. Not I called and asked.

I hunted Whitetails in Ohio a couple years ago. For centerfire rifles to be legal the case (brass) has to be straight walled. No shoulder, and I believe no belt. Look at the image of a case of a .45-70 or a .38-55. You’ll see what they mean. Up until a few years ago the only modern longarm allowed for Ohio’s non-muzzleloader season was a shotgun. Pretty sure that they figured the ballistics of the straightwalls approximated those of modern shotgun/slug combinations. Anybody is free to correct me about the current law or the State’s intentions. Good luck

I would say the 458 WM would be an illegal round in Ohio for whitetail deer.

Tom

I bought a .375 Win barrel for a Contender just for Iowa and Ohio several years ago. It was the flattest shooting straight walled cartridge I could find at the time.

Somewhere in the regs there was a chart of legal cartridges. Alot of the "wildcat" straight walled cartridges were NOT legal at that time.

God Bless, Louis

Yes straight wall cartridges .357 to .50
Three rounds allowed total. We broke pencils to the right size to allow only 3 rounds. Since the law allowing straight wall rifles , I believe you can simply only load 3, no need for pencils or dowels. I’ve had game warden check for 3 only in gun.

Better make sure it don't include the word:
"capacity:, as it does here in CO.

Nonsense laws, written just to produce income from fines the way I see it.

Having surge's of wet dreams a few years ago I bought 5 NEF single shots and some barrels. .357, .45 Colt etc. Cheap guns, shoot very well with these shells. Think I paid about $105-125 per gun. Then scoped 'em.

George

A "straight wall" cartridge is exactly that. It doesn't have a shoulder or belt, but rather is one width from the top rim that holds the bullet to the bottom of the case. Normally if there is a maximum cartridge number allowed in a law or regulation the firearm would need to be plugged if the magazine is capable of holding more than the total number allowed in it and the chamber at one time. Waterfowl hunting is a good example and normally if a GW checks the magazine it's not how many the person has in it, but rather how many he can put in the magazine when he checks it. If it were me, I wouldn't take any chances and would have the gun actually plugged to comply with the maximum requirement.

if they had a clue.
there is no such thing as a straight walled cartridge, even the rimmed cases are tapered.

No need to plug anything - the law is clear where it states "It shall be unlawful for any person hunting deer during any deer gun season, to possess or use any shotgun or rifle which is loaded with more than three shells or cartridges in the magazine and chamber combined."

If it were me and muzzleloaders are legal during that gun season I'd go that route, at least in areas where shots will be 200 yards and under, which is probably most areas.

Good luck.

Sounds like a good reason to buy Sharps rifle in 50-90.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm looking at the regulations for whitetail hunting in Ohio and it says:

Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50. Shotguns and straight-walled cartridge rifles can be loaded with no more than three shells in the chamber and magazine combined.

The only rifle that I already own that I think that I can use is a 458 Win Mag. or does the belt disqualify it?

It looks like that I am going to have to figure out how to block the Magazine to two rounds, also.

What say ye Buckeyes?

See, that is the stupidity of this law..... 458 is legal but a 30-30 is not. I use a 50 Alaskan or 50-110 Winchester in a lever action.
I had a discussion with the anti-hunting game warden of Morrow county several years ago at the whitetail expo. He was moaning about allowing rifles and not mandating shotguns with slugs.
His statement... heaven forbid they allow something like a .270, it is way too dangerous for use in Ohio.
My statement.... if you are 25 feet up in the air in a tree stand and shooting into the ground, noting that it is dirt and not rocks, it does not matter what you are shooting.

he had no reply for that..... I then noted, his thinking was why I kept the family farm in Kentucky and did my deer hunting there. I live in Ohio, but they lose my license revenue almost every year.

See, that is the stupidity of this law..... 458 is legal but a 30-30 is not. I use a 50 Alaskan or 50-110 Winchester in a lever action.
I had a discussion with the anti-hunting game warden of Morrow county several years ago at the whitetail expo. He was moaning about allowing rifles and not mandating shotguns with slugs.
His statement... heaven forbid they allow something like a .270, it is way too dangerous for use in Ohio.
My statement.... if you are 25 feet up in the air in a tree stand and shooting into the ground, noting that it is dirt and not rocks, it does not matter what you are shooting.

he had no reply for that..... I then noted, his thinking was why I kept the family farm in Kentucky and did my deer hunting there. I live in Ohio, but they lose my license revenue almost every year.[/QUOTE]

You had better bone up on firearms MR. Buckeye! The 458 belted magnum IS NOT a legal firearm for the Ohio Deer season, as it IS NOT a straight wall cartridge!!! I have also checked and they took the plug requirement out of the deer season firearms in 2015 and a shotgun is now the only firearm required to be plugged when hunting migratory birds under Federal Law!

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
See, that is the stupidity of this law..... 458 is legal but a 30-30 is not. I use a 50 Alaskan or 50-110 Winchester in a lever action.
I had a discussion with the anti-hunting game warden of Morrow county several years ago at the whitetail expo. He was moaning about allowing rifles and not mandating shotguns with slugs.
His statement... heaven forbid they allow something like a .270, it is way too dangerous for use in Ohio.
My statement.... if you are 25 feet up in the air in a tree stand and shooting into the ground, noting that it is dirt and not rocks, it does not matter what you are shooting.

he had no reply for that..... I then noted, his thinking was why I kept the family farm in Kentucky and did my deer hunting there. I live in Ohio, but they lose my license revenue almost every year.

You had better bone up on firearms MR. Buckeye! The 458 belted magnum IS NOT a legal firearm for the Ohio Deer season, as it IS NOT a straight wall cartridge!!! I have also checked and they took the plug requirement out of the deer season firearms in 2015 and a shotgun is now the only firearm required to be plugged when hunting migratory birds under Federal Law![/QUOTE]


I agree on the plug statement, I was told otherwise by my local game warden on the .458. This would be another reason NOT to have such rules... if we are discussing what is correct here.. and people are getting different information from law enforcement officials, then the system is flawed.

Like I said, I use a lever action.

A later followup, I gave the local game warden a call and asked specifically about a belt being part of the neck and making it an illegal round. He stated the belt is on the head of the case and the neck is the porton the bullet fits in, therefore, in his opinion a 450 marlin or 458 would not be illegal. Again, this is one guys interpretation .. but he is the guy who writes the tickets, so I am not arguing.

I can't remember reading, over the past 50+ years, that a belt had thing one to do with whether a cartridge was considered "straight-walled". That includes a pile of writeups on the .458 Win referring to it as straight-walled.

And it makes no sense that a headspacing belt at base is treated different than a rim at base. Put a straight edge to either, and you have a gap. Technically, the only straight-walled cases, then, would be things like .45 ACP, .351 Win, etc. We'll ignore "straight" wall taper, too.

You're dealing with government. Decisions made by government are often arbitrary, and sometimes fly in the face of patent fact (cf recent bumpstock ruling). It doesn't help that those who make up silly regulations don't understand the subject matter. Corollary of the Peter Principle, I guess.

One warden says .458 Win is "OK" but the next might say "not OK". Which means you're on your own.

Here’s the list of legal cartridges as published by Buckeye Firearms Assoc.on April 10,2014. This was announcing the approval. .357 Mag, .357 Max, .38 Special, .375 Super Mag, .375 Win, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .44 Special, .44 Mag, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Win Mag, .45 S&W, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110, .500 S&W.

Buckeyeshooter: "A later followup, I gave the local game warden a call and asked specifically about a belt being part of the neck and making it an illegal round. He stated the belt is on the head of the case and the neck is the portion the bullet fits in, therefore, in his opinion a 450 marlin or 458 would not be illegal. Again, this is one guys interpretation .. but he is the guy who writes the tickets, so I am not arguing."

***Anyone on here who doesn't know that the belt is at the base of a cartridge or that one like the 458 is not a straight wall cartridge because it is belted, especially a GW when the legal ones are spelled out in the law he's supposed to enforce, needs to take a crash course in centerfire ammo design!

If we are going to derive at intent. The intent appears to be they do not want you to use bottle neck cases that are reconized as being high velocity and flat shooting cartridges.

On the surface the argument is to protect residents ie homes from being shot into by these ballistic missiles of cartridges. The real reason is back door firearms restrictions. Because for decades hunting was the firearms activity that drove firearm sells. If rifles are illegal to hunt with than no one will buy rifles.

The 458 is a belted straight tapper walled cartridge. If the reg or statute does not prescribe that such are illegal or does not have Cartridge lengths restrictions the Statute is at least vague, and needs to be struck down and re-written. For that to happen someone has to be prosecuted. I do not want to be that person.

The real option is an AG written opinion interpreting the Statute. That has the force of law unless a Appeals level court rejects the opinion. I would not rely on I called and asked scenario. I would a written memo from either Ohio Fish and Wildlife or State Police saying the 458 WM was legal bc I do not see a jury convicting or a prosecutor wasting time when you can introduce the memo on state letterhead from the drafter.

I see no reason to yell at anybody. Show me a shoulder even a ghost shoulder on the 458 WM, then I will say it is not a straight rapper case with a belt.

That said. I agree with Top Gun without one of the above and given the published list, I would not do it. If the published list came from a Ohio State Agency, I believe it did, the answer is settled. Unless one wants to be a test case.

It would be hard to overturn an agency interpretation that the 458 WM is not legal under the Statute if the Agency followed the formal rule making procedure and promulgated the list or other restrictions not codified explicitly in Statute. We had a Justice, Justice Palmar in KY that loved overturning enabling statutes and regs. It was his thing. He wanted the Legislature to carefully and precisely dictate what behavior they were restricted or right they were limiting. He has been dead for almost 30 years.

If you are really good at handloading could you turn off or otherwise remove the belt. Stupid to have to do that, but this is why I do not want the Feds involved in one over poached deer.

If you do use a big 45 make sure your ammunition is legal. In KY I can use any centerfire rifle I want. I could build a 20inch carbine 25 acp and be legal for deer. However, if I use my 500 Nitro Express (or 25 ACP), then I can not use solids. I must use expanding ammunition for all KY big game. But solid projectile air rifle ammo is legal as of last year. Almost as dumb as your situation.

As Charlie Brown said, “Good Grief.” The only place with more political stooges than the Highway Department is Fish and Game. They really can’t find their backside with both hands and a friendly Indian Guide named Sacagawa.

Before my initial reply I talked with a co-worker who hunts and traps with a now retired ODNR game warden. He said personally he thought the 458 WM was legal. But, he had talked to enough guys that didn't. I would worry that enforcement will vary.

Tom

Who dreams up these stupid regulations??

When it first came out it listed specific calibers that were legal. Now it is a range of calibers. Unfortunately, common sense is not common. I don't like regulations that leave room for interpretation. There is always someone who wants to add some strange interpretation.

Common sense is not common.

Tom

In Wisconsin there used to be shotgun or muzzleloaders only zones.Mostly in Ag, areas.About three years ago that was changed to every County is rifle.There were studies presented that showed it made no difference in safety from shotgun to rifle.Shotgun only is a stupid law based on myth,but you have a hard time making some folks believe that.Fatal shootings did not happen when the law was changed here.There are more fatal shootings in Milwaukee on a weekend then through the whole rifle deer season.You can`t legislate stupity.

Thanks for trying guys.

I just remembered that I have a 45.70 Remington/Baikal double rifle in the safe someplace. The left barrel will group into an inch at 50 yards (the right barrel also groups well but it hits 8" higher than the left. )

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Who dreams up these stupid regulations??

Politicians of course... probably that idiot John Kasich in this case.

Exactly why I use a 50 Alaskan or 50-110 as they were on the approved list about 10 years ago when they specified what rounds were legal.
But again.... why a 50 alaskan and not a 30-30??

Inasmuch as the belt has no fault or asset in the deer woods they would look pretty silly in a court of law trying to explain why its illegal, and if ever challenged they would end up with mud on there face and forced to make a new law. They just seldom get challenged..However they would probably let it go as a straight walled case is my bet..

The people that make up game laws that Ive delt with are totally clueless about hunting or ballistics..as are many biologist and even game wardens...Many police officers have a poor understanding of firearms and some on laws when compared to gun nuts..

I was truly concerned I would go to Fish and Game Headquarters and take them to task on it, they might not even question it..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Inasmuch as the belt has no fault or asset in the deer woods they would look pretty silly in a court of law trying to explain why its illegal, and if ever challenged they would end up with mud on there face and forced to make a new law. They just seldom get challenged..However they would probably let it go as a straight walled case is my bet..

The people that make up game laws that Ive delt with are totally clueless about hunting or ballistics..as are many biologist and even game wardens...Many police officers have a poor understanding of firearms and some on laws when compared to gun nuts..

I was truly concerned I would go to Fish and Game Headquarters and take them to task on it, they might not even question it..

I hate to say it, but for a person in your business that was a very lame post. If they allowed the .458 that has a belt that, therefore, disqualifies it from the the law they might as well just open things to any centerfire rifle. They obviously want to limit what is allowed in that state with a high population density with safety as their first thought whether you or anyone else agrees with it.

They can stipulate in any law and be specific, You should know that..Its an issue of concern that can easily be addressed, what gov agency do you work for..

BTW, we did exactly that with rifle in 50 caliber, and with muzzle loaders..

I suggest that your ill advised. I won't say lame, as that's not part of an intelligent conversation and does not settle issues, just inflames them.

Straight walled cartridge means having no neck.

I do not see any other attachments such a belt be8ng mentioned.

That Baikal ougth to work. I know of a number of guys with AR-platform rifles in .450 Bushmaster who are very excited about the change in the law.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
They can stipulate in any law and be specific, You should know that..Its an issue of concern that can easily be addressed, what gov agency do you work for..

BTW, we did exactly that with rifle in 50 caliber, and with muzzle loaders..

I suggest that your ill advised. I won't say lame, as that's not part of an intelligent conversation and does not settle issues, just inflames them.

Sir, every midwest state that is allowing straight wall cartridges now for deer hunting do spell out and address what they allow! None include the belted cartridges like the .458 in their list and that includes the states of Michigan zone 3 where I live, along with Ohio, Indiana, and Iowa to name several others. Several members have stated that they believe the .458 is a straight wall cartridge just because it has no shoulder near the top of the case. That is only part of the equation because the rest of the cartridge body itself also needs to be straight and not have any deviations from the top to the bottom, not including the rim or rimless area in one of that type. I have scoured the net and can find no articles by noted writers or any pictures in any article that differ from that terminology.

I used the word lame because of your overall disparaging remarks about law enforcement and government in general in that post, which IMHO was not necessary. Now you have come back and done it again by asking me what government agency I work for like an ordinary citizen like myself that has been retired since 2002 wouldn't or shouldn't have a different opinion than you, which I do. That comment was not necessary and IMHO was also lame or whatever other negative connotation I might have used that would have been a lot worse.

Isn't there a length limit to the brass as well? Maybe not.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Isn't there a length limit to the brass as well? Maybe not.

Michigan where I live has a 1.16" minimum to a maximum of 1.80" in it's statute. I'm not going to waste my time on the other states to see if it's buried somewhere in theirs, but Ohio does actually show a picture of what is legal and what's not along with the legal list and it's as I mentioned previously just like other websites talking about what makes a straight wall cartridge.

I live in Ohio and I’ve never ever heard anyone question a 458 WM as not being a legal straight walled case. The belt is no different from a rim. To think otherwise is foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by rcasto:
I live in Ohio and I’ve never ever heard anyone question a 458 WM as not being a legal straight walled case. The belt is no different from a rim. To think otherwise is foolish.

The comment that the belt is no different than the rim is laughable! Look at a picture of a belted case like the.458 and tell me how you're going to put a straight edge along the entire case from top to bottom and have it touch the entire case. It ain't gonna happen because of the belt swell and that's why it's not on the list of approved cases in Ohio or any of the other midwestern states.

There is no list

quote:

Originally posted by rcasto:
There is no list

Correcto!!


They did away with any listed cartridges in 2017-2018 and this year's regulation booklet has no list but simply says "straight-walled" on pg. 13.

http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/po...nting%20Regs_Web.pdf


From ODNR:
In other rule changes, any straight-walled cartridge rifle with a minimum caliber of .357 to a maximum caliber of .50 is now allowed for hunting deer in Ohio. There have been three seasons of hunting deer with straight-walled cartridge rifles in Ohio with no biological impacts to the herd or additional hunter incidents. Defining the allowable rifles makes the rule easily understood and easily enforced, while also being inclusive of a great number of rifle options.

The OLD, dated 2014, list that is no longer valid is below:

Specific straight-walled cartridge rifles are legal for use during Ohio’s 2014 deer-gun and youth deer-gun seasons.
These specific straight-walled cartridge rifles are legal for deer hunting: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.

I just looked up the reg booklet on line. There is no list in he booklet, but the State could still be using the list and not publishing it in the book as an interagency guideline that could be interpreted as a a regulatory rule subject to rule making procedure.

Notwithstanding, there is a diagram over the definition. It is a traced or outlined bottleneck cartridge with a red X over it, and a rimmed straight tapper cartridge with a green check mark over it.

No belted cartridges of any type (bottle neck or straight taper ahead of the belt) are diagramed.

The fact folks are reported of various stances on enforcement depending on which Officer is asked speaks to the vagueness of this reg. I would bet the drafters have never seen a 458 WM.

There is no minimum or maximum length of Cartidge listed in the Booklet. I did not go through the Ohio Regs line by line that the booklet summerizes. I am on vacation.

An Attorney General Opinion or, the best answer, a better law is needed to bring true clarity to this situation.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I just looked up the reg booklet on line. There is no list in he booklet, but the State could still be using the list and not publishing it in the book as an interagency guideline that could be interpreted as a a regulatory rule subject to rule making procedure.

Notwithstanding, there is a diagram over the definition. It is a traced or outlined bottleneck cartridge with a red X over it, and a rimmed straight tapper cartridge with a green check mark over it.

No belted cartridges of any type (bottle neck or straight taper ahead of the belt) are diagramed.

The fact folks are reported of various stances on enforcement depending on which Officer is asked speaks to the vagueness of this reg. I would bet the drafters have never seen a 458 WM.

There is no minimum or maximum length of Cartidge listed in the Booklet. I did not go through the Ohio Regs line by line that the booklet summerizes. I am on vacation.

An Attorney General Opinion or, the best answer, a better law is needed to bring true clarity to this situation.

Your first 3 paragraphs are on the button Sir. Just because rcasto and Tony say the list isn't in the current booklet doesn't mean that the Statute that was signed into law in 2014 was abolished. Many times booklets for the states don't have the actual Statute wording in them and you have to go to the law itself. I've tried to explain this in the easiest way I can and they have too with the pictures of what is legal and what is not on page 13 of the current booklet. As you have also mentioned now, the picture does not show a belted cartridge as legal. The wall needs to be even from the top to the rim or rimlesss area of that type of cartridge. I also am not going to try to find anything more on this, but I agree that it would sure be nice if they just came right out and stated a belted cartridge is not legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
Many times booklets for the states don't have the actual Statute wording in them and you have to go to the law itself.

This from earlier:
From ODNR:

In other rule changes, ANY straight-walled cartridge rifle with a minimum caliber of .357 to a maximum caliber of .50 is now allowed for hunting deer in Ohio. There have been three seasons of hunting deer with straight-walled cartridge rifles in Ohio with no biological impacts to the herd or additional hunter incidents. Defining the allowable rifles makes the rule easily understood and easily enforced, while also being inclusive of a great number of rifle options.

Here you go.…

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-15-11

Straight from the Ohio Administrative Code » 1501:31 Division of Wildlife » Chapter 1501:31-15 Hunting and Trapping:

(2) Firearms

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to hunt or take deer with any firearm except:

(i) A shotgun no larger than ten-gauge or smaller than .410 caliber firing a single projectile per barrel. It shall be unlawful for any person hunting deer to use any shell casing which is necked down or made totally of metal for any of the shotguns listed.

(ii) A muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun, .38 caliber or larger using a single projectile per barrel.

(iii) A handgun with the following criteria:

(a) Chambered for .357 caliber magnum or larger.
(b) Using a straight walled cartridge.
(c) Single barrel not less than five inches in length, as measured from the front of the cylinder or chamber to the end of the barrel.

(iv) A rifle with the following criteria:

(a) Chambered for a straight walled cartridge with a minimum caliber of .357 to a maximum caliber of .515.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person hunting deer to use in any rifle or possess any rifle cartridge which is necked down.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person hunting deer during any deer gun season, to possess or use any shotgun or rifle which is loaded with more than three shells or cartridges in the magazine and chamber combined.
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to hunt or take deer during the deer gun season with any hunting implement other than described in paragraph (C) of this rule.
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess or carry a rifle, pistol, revolver or any other type of firearm while hunting deer or when assisting or accompanying a person that is hunting deer, during the archery season, outside of the youth deer gun season, deer gun season and deer muzzleloading season.
(f) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess rifle cartridges while hunting during the deer muzzleloading season.
(g) It shall be unlawful to possess shotgun shells, containing shot, while hunting during the youth deer gun season, deer gun season from the first Monday after Thanksgiving through the following Sunday and deer muzzleloading season except:
(i) Persons hunting waterfowl may possess shotgun shells containing non-toxic shot.
(ii) Persons hunting other legal game may possess shotgun shells containing shot not larger than number four.
(iii) It shall be unlawful for any person to hunt or take a coyotes and wild boar during the youth deer gun season or the deer gun season without using a hunting implement described in paragraph (C) of this rule.

(h) It shall be unlawful for any person hunting during the deer muzzleloading season to possess shotgun slugs or rifle ammunition.
(i) It shall be unlawful for any person to be in possession of shotgun slugs or rifle ammunition while hunting during the youth deer gun season, except youth hunters hunting deer.
(j) It shall be unlawful for any person to hunt or take deer during the deer muzzleloading season with any hunting implement other than the archery equipment described in paragraph (C)(1) of this rule or a muzzleloader as described in paragraph (C)(2)(a)(ii) of this rule.

Some additional reading:

https://www.the-daily-record.c...al-deer-hunting-guns

https://www.buckeyefirearms.or...traight-walled-rifle