I have shot 140 tsx out of my 7mmstww at 3400fps and have shot a dozen animals with it. All of them have died but I have some concerns and want some opinions if you could.
All animals shot in the vitals died within 100 yards but some of them ran with no blood comming out of the exit hole because of the pencil effect. This made me think it would be hard to track in some conditions especially bears.
Another concern I had was with a few of the animals I made bad shots on and the animal would run with no blood again.
I had shot a doe once just in front of the hind quarters mid section and she ran 50 yards and stoped. The buck with her began to chase her around like she wasn't hit for 30 seconds until I shot again to hit her in the lungs. I didn't even know I gut shot the doe until I cleaned it out.
I use to shoot hornady interlock bulletts and whenever I made a bad shot the animal still went down.
My question is whether I should switch to a bullett that may not pencil through or stay with what I shoot? I am not a meat hunter very often and don't worry about meat damage. Would a Hornady SST be a better choice for pass throughs with bigger exit hole with the high spead I shoot?
Sorry for the long thread
Phil

I don't know that I have answer to your question but the question I have is "the pencil effect"...I hear people say this all the time yet nobody has ever recovered one of the these "pencilled" bulletts...so how do we know that they didn't open.

TSX begin to open up in the first inch of ballistic gellatin. I find it difficult that they don't open in 12 inches of an animals bottom.

It's quite possible that the animal skin stretches before it breaches...

I have shot several anterled game with Nosler Partitions, Hornady Interloks, TSXs, and Barnes Xs, and I have had from bang flops to animals go 50 to 100 yds with pouring buckets and go 30 yds with no blood and be piled up.

Animals are living moving organisms when they get hit interesting things happen...one event is not pattern.

As Terry Blauwkamp says shoot 10 deer with one bullet at 1 velocity in one caliber all broadside and you can might have a little data to dertermine how that one bullet works on deer for that caliber and that velocity.


TSXs are great bullets...stick with them.

If you shot a dozen animals with the bullet and all of them died, I don't comprehend what you're worried about.

I've seen photos of recovered Barnes bullets some of which were bent into a U shape. The theorey was presented by one that some of the bullets tumble and end up coming out of the animal base first and I think this is likely. A bullet that tumbles inside an animal does a LOT of damage inside where it counts and might not leave a large exit hole.

nube, it all depends where you hit the animal as to the extent of noticeable damage done. If you don't hit any bone and the bullet zips through the animal you are going to have a small entrance hole and a small exit hole. What you may fail to realize is, the bullet expanded but without the bone and more expansion you get a smaller exit hole. Also a deer's hide will stretch when the expanded bullet basses through and then relaxes back to a smaller hole.

Do like I do, shoot them high in the shoulder, you break bone, hit the lungs resulting in a dead deer and usually not a far tracking job if any.

I like and use TSX Barnes bullets.

I have never killed an animal with a TSX bullet but I believe your problem is too much velocity. Your TSXs are shearing the metal petals off on impact because of the excessive high velocity and penciling right on through the animals with out leaving a blood trail because there is nothing left to expand.

Something like a SST or a Ballistic Tip would make your problems even worse because they wouldn't get the penetration you are getting with the TSXs at your excessively high velocities.

I got a fist sized exit wound with a 6.5 140 Gr SST out of a 13 inch barreled hand gun on a better than 200 Lb buck this year. My muzzle velocity was almost 1,000 fps less than yours is. The deer dropped right where it was hit on a high shoulder shot. You don't need all that velocity to get good clean kills.

Fill some one gallon milk jugs with water and stack them up in a row. Shoot with different bullets for expansion and penetration. I got penetration into the 6 water jug with the 140 Gr Nosler Partition and 160 Gr Sierra ProHunter bullets. The Partition lost its front core at 25 yards with a muzzle velocity of a little over 2,500 fps.

The above mentioned SST penetrated into the 5th jug but remained in tact. All of these bullets expanded to better than .50 caliber out of an 13 inch barreled Encore handgun. Run some high velocity tests and compare the expansion and penetration with lower velocity loads. If you do this, you will find that the lower velocity loads will perform better than what you are now I am sure...Rusty.

I am just worried about making a bad shot and not being able to track an animal. I believe the tsx is a great bullett but with tha doe I hit in the guts this year she didn't flinch much and even trotted around like she wasn't hit. If it would have ran into the bushes I would have thought I missed and then when I went to track her to see if I made a hit I wouldn't have seen any blood because it puts such a small exit hole into an animal. I have hit deer with bad shots before with bulletts like the hornady interlocks and it put them down and so they don't want to get back up. I don't know enough about bulletts to know if it is better to have a ballistic style bullett with some shrapnel on a bad shot or if the TSX is still the best bullett in these types of senerios?

I would not use an SST or Btip at those velocities. The TSX is most likely losing it's petals and not pencilling through. But sometimes a bullet loses a lot of velocity while destroying tissse, so even if it did keep its mushroomed petals, it may slow down enough upon exit that the hole is just unremarkable. My first TSX kill was a CO mulie at roughly 100 yards quartering away. 270, 130 grain. Exit hole was just large enough for me to poke my finger in but the deer walked in a cirle like a dog chasing it's tail, then fell, all in about 2 seconds after impact. Vitals were as soupy as you can imagine, so that bullet didn't pencil but many would have said it did.

With those kind of velocities, I'd opt for a bone hit. OR you could try a bonded bullet and still go for soft tissue shots.

Or another option is to try the Wildcat bullets. Call Richard Graves. He's right there in Alberta also. Here's his website:

Excellent bullets combining match grade accuracy with hunting bullet toughness.

quote:

With those kind of velocities, I'd opt for a bone hit. OR you could try a bonded bullet and still go for soft tissue shots.

Ditto. Especially w/ tough bullets.

If you want big exits at those velocities go for the 150 NBT and go for ribs/lungs. I've killed several whitetails w/ the 150 .284 NBT at impacts over 3000 and get exits 99% of the time. The exits are usually 1-2".

Good luck

Reloader

Reloader, I respectfully disagree with your signature line:

quote:

There's nothing like the Heart Pounding Adrenaline Rush that comes w/ a close encounter of a Trophy Game Animal.

I'd say a close encounter with this would do about the same:

Former photo was way off topic, sorry, took it off. --doc

quote:

Posted 18 December 2006 21:22 Hide Post
Reloader, I respectfully disagree with your signature line:


quote:
There's nothing like the Heart Pounding Adrenaline Rush that comes w/ a close encounter of a Trophy Game Animal.


I'd say a close encounter with this would do about the same:

Hey Doc, I guess I'll have to agree with ya on that one for sure!! But, You'll have to admit they both look nice in the living room

Have a Good One

Reloader

You just won that debate Doc. That is one nice whitetail.

disregard

quote:

Originally posted by hoghunting:
You just won that debate Doc. That is one nice whitetail.

Thanks. I felt like I was up to the challenge.

I would call mike at North Fork Bullets and ask him if his bullets will stand up to that sort of velocity. IMO the best soft point out there.

http://northforkbullets.com/284-130.htm

Here is a link to a long detailed and scientific piece done on terminal ballistics that every hunter interested in bullet performance should read. Nube's problem and the experiences of others with bullets blowing up are explained, along with the debunking of a number of commonly held beliefs on terminal ballistics...Rusty.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

I shot an elk at 347, a mulie buck at 305 and 2 white tail does at around 100 yds. All with my 300win and 180gr TSX. All were DRT, the does were both clean double lung shots with 2in exits and LOTS of blood. The elk and buck were quartering and a shoulder was hit on both, the bullet exited and again LOTS of blood.

No bullet can make up for bad shot placement, a deer shot in the gut with ANY bullet or caliber is subject to having the exit clog up with stomach material leading to a short and small blood trail. I would say either dont shoot em at long range or practice more, with todays fine rifles and scopes a "gut shot" should be an abnormality not the norm.

If you email Barnes about your concern they will reply about the high speed breaking the petals off and the remainder of the bullet exiting with a small hole. Slow it down a little and you should be fine. The fact that the petals tear off creates more internal damage but less blood on the ground. I am pushing 3000 fps and have now problem and exit holes are over an inch with plenty of blood flow.
Good Luck

quote:

I use to shoot hornady interlock bulletts and whenever I made a bad shot the animal still went down.

Why mess with success?

ever consider backing off on your velocity a little bit, and maybe that will help with your performance. I shoot 139 gr. SST out of my 7 STW at 3175 fps and have never, ever had any issues. I fully realize that this is under-utilizing the potential of the rifle, but it works.

Different bullets perform in a variety of ways. Solids are designed to penetrate deeply on heavily muscled and heavy boned animals. They normally are expected to break bones on the way in and preferably on the way out as well. They are expected to "break down an animal" by breaking bones or penetrating into the brain making it incapable for the animal to flee or charge. The opposite end of the scale would have relatively light jacketed bullets shot into soft skinned animals where the bullet is expected to mushroom rapidly causing as much tissue damage as possible.Nube's "Interloks" would fall into this group. There are a variety of bullets that fall somewhere in between. Call them "controlled expansion" or whatever you like. They are expected to mushroom and cause as much tissue damage as possible yet enough of the bullet stay together to reliably exit.When you consider some of these bullets are travelling under 2400 fps and others may be closer to 3400 fps. How can any bullet be expected to perform under such a wide range of variables? There are several very good bullets out there. The Nosler Partition is a good bullet and has been around longer than most. The Swift A frame is of similar construction but because the lead cores are bonded to the jacket they stay together better and penetrate deeper (in my experience). The Barnes X or TSX seems to kill in a different fashion. I have taken game with an 8mm Remm & 200 gr X bullets,a 300 Wby and 180 gr TSX,a 30-06 imp & 165 TSX,a 7mm Wby and 140 gr TSX and the 270 Wby and 130 gr TSX. I have also worked up loads for the 6.5 REm and 120 TSX, 350 Rem and 225 TSX,340 Wby & 338 Rum with 210 and 225 TSX and the 416 with 300 gr X bullets. . The only X bullet I have ever recovered is 130 gr bullet fired from a 270 Wby. It broke a front shoulder of a large Saskatchewan whitetail went through the lungs like a blender ,broke a couple ribs on the off side and was found just under the hide. It was a picture perfect bullet with four petals folded back just like a Barnes advertisement. It weighed 129 1/2 grs. All other bullets have passed through. I spend time examining the wound channels on all game I shoot. With a common cup & jacket bullet the path of the bullet can often be changed or upset if the bullet hits a large bone. I find less tendancy for the TSX bullet to do that. To me this is important. If I have a less than perfect shot such as a quartering away shot wher the bullet goes in through a rib ,hopefully through the lungs and ends up exiting through the off shoulder. I have more confidence with the TSX that the bullet will stay on track and get to the off shoulder and penetrate through it. I also feel that the4 petals stick out more perpendicular than the soft copper jacket on a common bullet does. This seems to create more of a blender effect in the lungs. Years ago Norma had bullets with a steel jacket and gliding metal on both sides that seemed to cause more damage than the soft copper jackets normally availible. I have never seen a TSX bullet fail to open even at some pretty extreme range. The bang flop idea may be great but I would rather know that if I did my part and put the bullet where I was aiming I will find my game very close with at least two of the following three things,1/ shoulder broke on the way in or out, 2/ lungs like jelly after the blender went through 3/ an exit hole. I find myself using more and more TSX bullets on hunts that count,simply because they perform.

Just a question out there what do you guys consider a bullet failure? I've never had one bullet fail on me, I've failed to do my part on shooting a game animal. I've never equated my poor shooting to a bullet failure.

I tend to reload Sierra and Speer bullets. I don't like shooting a different bullet for hunting and target shooting. I find that Barnes are just to expensive for range use so I don't use them to hunt with.

So far I've never lost an animal that I've shot, but some have needed more than one bullet(poor shooting on my part). I've also never found a Speer or Sierra bullet lacking in performance as long as I do my part. I have nothing personal against Barnes or other premium bullets but to date I haven't found that I need them.

I would define bullet failure on a soft point as when the bullet fails to penetrate and literally blows up on the surface of an animal. The other posibility would be when a soft point fails to open at all and pencils right through causing little damage. If most of the game a person shoots is deer and antelope you will seldon see either. Many bullets (especially std bullets that are pushed faster than a 270/30-06 class of cartridge can achieve)will have the core & jacket separate. The lead core often fragments resulting in considerable tissue damage and a bang flop situation. I wouldn't consider this a bullet failure on a deer. If however you were shooting at an animal that was more heavily muscled and that bullet blows up BEFORE it penetrates into the heart lung area or before it breaks several large bones to break the animal down that would be a bullet failure. This becomes a real concern when this animal is a large bear or other dangerous game. You would not normally see a bullet failure on deer sized game. Even when the bullet on a 270/308/30-06 blows up it still has sufficient penetration to stop deer. To prove bullet failure you would have to wound the animal have it get away and then shoot it again several hours or even days later and examine the original wound to determine it was not immediatly fatal. This is a very unlikely situation as coyotes usually eat all your evidence. Taylorce1 you bring up a valid point if all you shoot is deer with a 270/308/30-06 class rifle you don't need a premium bullet. However if you are going after larger game and may have several thousand dollars invested in your hunt what is wrong with spending a couple more bucks on premium bullets? For the few dollars they will cost I would consider them cheap insurance.Or if you shoot a magnum rifle. An aquaintance of mine used a new rifle this year. A beautiful custom FN mauser in 300 RUM caliber. He insisted on using the same std bullets he has used for years. They shot an incredible group from the bench. He had several chances at deer and elk this fall. He never failed to draw blood but he never stopped a single animal. There was hair and blood where the animals had been but the blood soon petered out and no animals were recovered. He finally put the new rifle away and finished season with an old 30-06. I talked to him a week ago and he is still carrying that elk tag around in his wallet. He also has an order in for a couple hundred 180 gr TSX bullets after he seen the job they did on my one shot kills on elk and mule deer from my 300 Wby.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

I use to shoot hornady interlock bulletts and whenever I made a bad shot the animal still went down.

Why mess with success?

I've been thinking the same thing. Why switch from a bullet that's done well for you?

It is always questionable why someone would mess with success. I guess I could ask myself the same thing. When I started loading my own rifle rounds I didn't know squat about different bullets. I knew there were a few kind and a few weights per caliber.

I was in awe of those PRETTY colored tips on the Noslers and was told that they are VERY accurate, so I tried them. In fact, the Btip was the ONLY bullet I would load...they looked good, shot good, and killed great each and every time.

Years go by and my brother, friends, and I are stacking the deer carcasses year after year with these bullets in Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, and Georgia.

Then I found out (on sights like this) that the Nosler ballistic tip is a "marginal bullet, fragments on impact, doesn't penetrate"....and on and on, which we've never experienced anything but pass throughs and venison.

So, imagine how I must have looked reading all of this, and hearing it from other hunters. I was perplexed. Was I using a crappy bullet all these years and just getting lucky? What about all the kills?

Anyway, many of you know that I favor the TSX and always will. I didn't have to change as far as I was concerned (after all, why mess with success)? and I still use those Btips since I have a few thousand on the bench. But, I do like the confidence I have with stronger quartering shots, heavy bone shots, etc. while using the TSX. Even as I type this, my memory bank is flashing all of the shoulder shots with Btips, so I guess change was never necessary.

Maybe some of us want to change things, despite how successful they've been because we get bored with it. I don't know. For me, I just like to try new stuff, plain and simple.

I was wearing glasses for years that afforded me 20/20 vision but I still had the Lasik eye surgery. The glasses were "successfull." But I like the change.

Eric Albus is a well known Montana outfitter. I've had a few conversations with him over the years about the rifles he shoots, what he's seen used by his clients, the outcomes, etc. He was shooting a 300RUM factory rifle with 165 grain Hornady boat tails for EVERYTHING.

"That bullet just plain works even on elk...it won't mushroom past that cannelure. My rifle is accurate and likes the bullets." When asked what he considered to be accurate, I recall him saying 2" groups at 100 is all you need.

I told him that I favor one hole groups first, 1/2" is good, 1" needs some work, and anything bigger, needs a work over.

Long story short, he had his rifle blueprinted, Krieger bbl installed, and shot 180 Swift Sciroccos and said to me: "don't know why I waited so long."

I never needed solid copper bullets to kill North American game - the Nosler line is more than adequate, and their bullets are very accurate. In spite of what some people will tell, NBTs and Sierra GKs work great too, because they open up. The Barnes line, and the like, are better used for heavy skinned, big-boned animals, because they might not open-up penetrating thin-skinned critters like deer, even elk.

nube,

Were all of the amimals deer? Did you look at all at the interior damage?

A friend just shot a small buck going away at 160 yds with a 130 gr X from a 270 WSM. Starting velocity was about 3300 fps. The bullet made a very small wound everywhere it went. First impact was one of the deers stomachs where it went thru acorns, then thru a lung and it made a groove in the heart and was lost going into the deers neck.

He is not going to use X bullets again. He has shot lots of deer with the 270 Win for the last 40 years and had never seen such a small wound. This is his first deer with a 270 WSM and a X bullet.

My theory is that any small ding or damage to the tiny meplat hollow point on a X bullet causes it not to open as well as the monolitic solid copper will not tear open like lead will underneath a jacket.

To be frank after sectioning those X bullets I don't doubt the theory might have some validity.

If I used an X bullet it would be the MRX as then the plastic meplat would hold the hollow point open from damage.

All of this is just theory on my part but a dozen animals is quite a large sample if it's backed up by the experience of dozens more with other bullets. If they are running further and the exit's not as good as other bullets then the X's are not as good period.

I have had superb results with the 140 gr Accubond from the 270 WSM on deer. It anchors them and they die faster than any other conventional load besides the 358 Win 180 Speer.

I would try the 160 gr Accubond on game next from that 7mm cannon.

Here is a picture of the wound in an average sized buck deer shot at 150 yds with the 140 gr Accubond from my 270 WSM. The bullet started at about 3175 fps.

The bullet hit the deer about half way back just under the spine and it paralyzed the deer. I have never seen such an exit from anyones X bullets.

Come on and show me the X bullets exits!

168 TSX exit hole on deer quartering away at 65 yards. Slightly larger than quarter. Plenty big enough for me. Not that I care, they drop right there anyway. When we lifted him up, there was about 2 pints of blood on the ground at the exit hole sight. I should have taken pics of the lungs but it started raining again. Onside lung had nice tennis ball sized hole in it. Offside lung had entire top lobe gone. I'd say that is good enough.

fgulla is on the right track. If any animal is gut shot, all it takes is a chunk of fat, intestine stuck hanging out of the hole and they won't bleed even if they are 1.5 inches. Shoot for the shoulder , hit some bone, you are also six inches farther from a gut shot. Using the NF soft is another idea, as they will open up even on very small game, but penetrate like hell. If I'm going to hunt big, expensive animals far from home, I'l have the North Forks in my magazine as they've proven themselves to me. I have no problem with the TSX even on whitetails, which are easy to kill with damn near anything in the ribs.

quote:

Posted by snowman:
Taylorce1 you bring up a valid point if all you shoot is deer with a 270/308/30-06 class rifle you don't need a premium bullet. However if you are going after larger game and may have several thousand dollars invested in your hunt what is wrong with spending a couple more bucks on premium bullets? For the few dollars they will cost I would consider them cheap insurance.Or if you shoot a magnum rifle.

Well I can't argue with that statment, but I definatly hunt more than deer. I've only used premimum ammo once on an elk hunt and that was because I accidently left my reloads at home so I picked up Federal .270 loaded with Nosler Partitions. They killed my elk so I can't argue with their performance but would my GameKings I left on my bench have failed to perform? I have no experince with hunting with magnum rifles yet, just bought my first 7mm Mag.

The thing I notice about people who use Barnes bullets is they use less grains than normal. Take my .270 for example a lot of people shooting Barnes will choose 130 grain bullet when a regular bullet they would have probably used a 150 grain. I still like my heavy bullets for larger game and I'll keep my 130's for deer and pronghorn.

I'm considering working up a 150 TSX load for my RH custom 270 to give to my friend and his wife. It will mostly be for her to use because she does not like the recoil of the magnums. She shoots a 270 quite well. They live in Colorado and she usually gets a deer every year, and sometimes an elk. In the past, she's used a 243 on elk with dismal results. They borrow rifles from family or friends, shoot at 150 yards the day before the season, then go hunting.

If I find a good combo, I'll load up about 200 and she'll be set for life. Her husband is looking at buying a 300RUM, or having one built.

I just haven't decided whether or not I can part with the rifle, since I get nice tiny hole groups with the 150Btips....which BTW has been my Doe antelope rig for 2 years now. Hmmm.

Doc, it's Christmas, after all, brother! And besides, you like trying new things, right?

Just put your mind to it that you're going to work up those 150's for your friend's wife, and then you'll have the pleasure of working up a new rifle--who knows, perhaps for the MRX.

Now, that's rationale for you!

friar

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
and then you'll have the pleasure of working up a new rifle--who knows, perhaps for the MRX.

Dang it, you just had to say it didn't ya...MRX...that little expensive pill has been on my brain for a bit too. Thought about giving them a test run.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:

Come on and show me the X bullets exits!

300 win mag 180 gr TSX 256 yards MV 3150, through the front shoulders, DRT

going in



going out



not much meat damage.

I tend to use TSX's in calibers at least 30 caliber or larger and Accubonds in the smaller calibers. As you know there was considerable controversy over using 338 win mag 225 gr Accubonds in Africa and there has been some reports of small fast TSX's "penciling through".

I do like those small groups with the TSX though.

i think with barnes bullets the problems start s when the petals break of, and that usually happens in the magnum cartridges, i have had barnes bullets split straight down the centre as if they were cut with a knife,others have been recovered (150 gn from a 06 )which was bent like a banana....i dont think the barnes x/tsx/mrx is the answer in the magnum cartridges as there is a far to great chance of the petals breaking of, and i cant see 4 petals breaking of doing to much damage....to start of with they dont have enough weight to penetrate!
i think the sooner people that use magnum cartridges relise the benefit of the NORTH FORK BULLETS, the better of ,BOTH THEY AND THERE GAME ANIMALS WILL BE!
Daniel

The pictures of the skinned quarters above don't show that much of a hole nor proof that an X can make it thru the hide to leave a trail.

I shot X's into water filled cartons from a 300 WM at short range and while the petals broke off the cartons were smashed pretty good and the remaining bullet shank still held a high percentage of its original weight.

The diameter of the remaining shank was not much more than bore diameter however.

I have to say up front I am a North Fork man if the chambering I am shooting performs with that bullet best, and 90% of the rifles I shoot, that is the case. I also have to say, I have great respect for the Barnes X, XLC, TSX bullets and have for years. The new MRX I have never shot, and therefore will not comment on it. I have shot many thousands of the Barnes bullets and unlike some here have stated, I do not feel that when the petals shear off, the bullet has failed. ----- Case in point. 1998 Elk hunt near Craig Colorada. I am shooting a .340 Wby loaded with the Barnes XLC( the blue one) 225 grain bullet at 3150 fps. This was prior to my finding the North Fork bullets. Weather that day was extremely cold, and it was snowing. My shot was up a steep mountain at 225 yards. First shot the 5 X 5 Bull had his right shoulder to me, I put the crosshair square in the shoulder (I thought), pulled the trigger and when the snow settled, the Bull was turned around, exposing his left shoulder to me. While supprised he was still standing, I managed to place another shot in that shoulder (I thought), and he hit the deck as if you had pulled the rug out from under him. When I climbed the mountain and examined him, he had two holes within 2 inchs of each other (both entrance and exit holes), from opposite sides of each other, not in the shoulders but just behind them, over the heart and through both lungs. I gutted him out with flashlight as the sun was setting at the shots and left him on the mountain until my son and a buddy could help me the next day getting him out. ----- Next day as we were skinning my son found two blue Petals in the skin at each exit hole. My son and buddy both exclaimed that the bullet did it's job inside, then exited also thus leaving a blood trail to follow, if he could have traveled. That day right there I gained more respect for the Barnes bullets, picturing in my mind the damage that twisting, red hot bullet made inside the Bull Elk, then depositing the petal in the hide, after the major damage was done, and exiting with gusto on the opposite side. That is the evidence, seen with my own eyes and those of my son and buddy both with many Elk under their belts is why I do not agree with the idea that when the Barnes bullets lose their petals they have failed. Just my .02's worth, coming from experience, not conjecture. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The pictures of the skinned quarters above don't show that much of a hole nor proof that an X can make it thru the hide to leave a trail.

You'll just have to take my word on it then, just like I believe your photo is truly from an AB bullet like you said, and not some other bullet.

Honestly, I'm getting quite a bit tired of this whole "proof" issue when discussing stuff on the internet.

Where's your proof? Where's your evidence? Those aren't your personal accounts, even though you were right beside the trigger man when it all went down, so nothing you said counts....bla bla bla.


Savage, my first reaction to your last post was a loud chuckle. Not because it's you or that it was silly, but because you asked for some photos and you got them. But when they didn't stack up to YOUR photo and show some skin, somehow the holes just weren't quite big enough, not taking into account there anatomical location, or how much blood could have pumped out, etc. So, now the "skinned" photos are "shady" evidence. Here's my experience...with a shot placement like yours, the only way you'd get a good blood trail is because of the location of the artery that was probably destroyed, otherwise, it would take a long time for that chest cavity to fill up with blood before a trail began. MY shot, on the other hand, was a lower third chest cavity shot through and through already described above, and there was MORE than enough blood on the ground as it was a lower shot, and the bullet exited where the neck shoulder junction is, which is the location of the neurovascular bundle. So, even though my exit hole was smaller it poured blood without resistance, thus, it did exit the skin.

What is the big deal? I mean no disrespect to you or anyone, but lets be honest here, the fact is, the potential for embelishment on the world wide web is unlimited.

I have no desire to post something that isn't true because with these photos, quite frankly, I'm just too damned lazy. I get no kickbacks from Barnes, Nosler, or Swift.

If you do not like a bullet, no one is going to skip a heart beat. I like the ABs and the TSX bullets. But to imply that we take photos without skins because an X style bullet didn't exit.....don't you think you're splitting hairs here?

FWIW, I've never recovered a TSX bullet, nor has my bro. Scouts honor, I promise, may my Mother in Law move back into my house if I'm lying.

Let me share something with you that has bothered me for a long long time. I have been reloading for a short time compared to many, since about 1989. I never owned a custom rifle until 2002, and honestly, I thought that once I had a custom rifle, all of my reloading would be cut in half or by more...not true. I surfed this site for a long time before I signed on.

I read over and over and over again about how all of the members here kept getting half inch groups with just about any bullet they wanted time and time again, factory guns, no tweaking, or mild changes only. I THOUGHT I SUCKED. I could get a half inch group maybe twice with one load, then it would spread out.

I picked up some reloading tips on the way which has made a difference, but yet, even with a Lilja bbl, blueprinted action, it still took work to get a nice small group downrange CONSISTANTLY.

For the short time I've reloaded, it is my opinion that I've rolled a LOT more than some who've been doing it for many years longer.

It has only been the last 4 years that I can chime with confidence that I have a safe full of half inch groupers or better, on a good shooting day (decent weather).

So, do you think it's true about all the thousands of posts touting bench quality groups with factory rifles and ammo, and photos posted? Only the poster knows. For all I know, someone is putting a target where the chronograph should be and shooting 2 bullets and claiming it's 5.

Let's ease off on the "proof" bit, and give the benefit of the doubt.

I will name 2 occasions where I have embelished a story. Kill stories to be exact. So for that I apologize to all. On 2 occasions, I decreased the actual distance at which I made one shot kills for fear of being burned at the stake. One I decreased by roughly 50 yards (muzzleloader kill), the other, by about 150 (rifle kill).

After reading time and time again about how unethical it is to actually shoot at game beyond 300 yards with a rifle, I thought I'd "doctor" up my story.

There, now I feel naked.