You're all right, Doc!

Dittos

Doc,

Go back and read the introductory post and title of this topic please. The post creator is questioning the poor killing power and blood trails from Barnes X bullets. We read of such penciling thru all of the time and it's primarily with X bullets. I posted information from my hunting buddy which confirms the small wound channels from X bullets.

Your questioning of my word on what bullet made the hole as pictured is out of line. How dare you even bring that up and then of course say that your not questioning it.

Not that I doubt your credibility but just your powers of observation and deduction which I do question.

Anyone who is riding the Barnes horse is counting on a company that has made more design changes than Yugo. Barnes can't get a loading manual right and was too cheap to recall the dangerous data. Barnes can't even come close on ballistic coeficients but of course being that they published them 20% on the high side made some ride that lame mount as well.

I wish Barnes well but they don't impress me at all so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Doc,

Your questioning of my word on what bullet made the hole as pictured is out of line. How dare you even bring that up and then of course say that your not questioning it.

Huh, then what do you make of this?

quote:

The pictures of the skinned quarters above don't show that much of a hole nor proof that an X can make it thru the hide to leave a trail.

Seems to me like that's the pot calling the kettle black. You question our photos and call them a lack of proof for exits out the skin, questioning our comments and that is somehow, "in line?"

You need to reread my post. I said I take what you write at face value and to be true. I don't question your bullet and I meant what I wrote. I meant you no disrespect, and I'm certain I had that written. But your earlier comment is no more acceptable than what you find mine to be.

You do not like Barnes bullets, just say it. My powers of observation are probably greater than most because it's part of what I do for a living. Question them if you want, but I've never had a bad experience with them, so I choose to use them.

I have no doubts that Barnes X bullets had their problems, that is why I never tried any other than a few in a 22-250 until the TSX came out.

But you question my ability to observe DRT one shot kills time after time, and expect me or anyone else to ignore what we've eyewitnessed because you shot a jug of water at close range?

Put a good bullet in the right place and who needs a blood trail anyway? The only time I discuss blood trails is while bowhunting. IMO that topic should be a mute point when using projectiles at supersonic speeds.

quote:

Go back and read the introductory post and title of this topic please. The post creator is questioning the poor killing power and blood trails from Barnes X bullets.

No, he's not, he's specifically asking about the TSX, not the original Barnes X. Moreover, I'd say based on your own test that the Barnes style bullet has a higher probability of exiting compared to the AB bullet and some others, which is something you questioned from our photos.

To this day, I believe there is no perfect bullet for any or all hunting scenarios. And I certainly don't have a problem with Barnes continuing to make changes to their products because as far as I'm concerned, it has been for the better...you make it sound like that is a bad thing.

They seem to listen quite well to feedback and attempt to make appropriate modifications to their bullets. The original Barnes X had it's share of problems. It is a great concept that needed some improvements. They are working on that. This is not bad and it should be applauded, not compared to a Yugo. I'd like to think of it as progress.

Your bias is shining like the sun, this could all end if you come out and state that you don't care for the bullets or the company.

FWIW, the worst experience I've ever had while hunting with a rifle was a lost mulie shot in CO with a 140 AB from a 270 at 45 yards. That doesn't give me any right to tell you that you got lucky because it is a substandard bullet. But I certainly prefer a TSX over the AB when it comes to penetration and bone. From my years of experience and hitting soft tissue only with Btips, I cannot see any advantage of the AB whatsoever in the 270. It has done nothing to impress me over a Btip.

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
some of them ran with no blood comming out of the exit hole because of the pencil effect.

Another concern I had was with a few of the animals I made bad shots on and the animal would run with no blood again.

I use to shoot hornady interlock bulletts and whenever I made a bad shot the animal still went down.

Exit wounds depend a lot on what you hit going in/out of the deer, not necessarily the bullet construction. Hit a rib going in or out and you'll blow a hole the size of a silver dollar no matter what bullet you use. Hit no bone and you MAY get the "pencil" effect no matter what bullet you use. It's a matter of luck- what you hit, did you sever a major artery etc. I've had small exits with interloks, scirrocos and tsx.

I also am now a firm believer in any exit wound is better than none.

I like TSX. I've killed a lot of game with them and have been nothing but happpy with their performance.

P.S. Here are pics I took today of my father in laws 140gr Interlok. Notice complete failure with jacket separation.

3 of my hunting partners and myself have had nothing but superb performance with the TSX bullets on everything from Pronghorn,Deer,Elk and even an Asian Buffalo.Three of use are shooting the 180 TSX 2 in 300 Win and one in 300RUM and One is shooting a 7MM Rem with 160 TSX. The 180 TSX have also worked to perfection on PD's out of the 300 Win blowing parts everywhere (The 7MM and the RUM have not shot any PD's)

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
I use to shoot hornady interlock bulletts and whenever I made a bad shot the animal still went down.

That's your answer. It's also my experience exactly.

For elk hunting, I used Hornady 180 grain Spire Points in .300 Weatherby exclusively for years. I never had one fail to exit. Exits were always large with lots of blood flow.

In 40 years of big game hunting and handloading, I can't say that I've seen genuine bullet failure in the field all that often, assuming a proper caliber and bullet weight was used. The exception that really sticks in my mind is the Barnes X. That is the one bullet that I will never use on game again.

An expanding bullet that fails to expand in game is a bullet failure. The mono metal spitzers marketed as "expanding" bullets are not - they're semi-solids. Sometimes they expand and sometimes they don't - it's that simple. I have no patience for "sometimes" performance. With so many good expanding bullets available that expand reliably, hold together, and penetrate, like Interlocks, Nosler, Woodleigh, Swift, etc., there's no reason to choose a third string bullet like the Barnes.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

P.S. Here are pics I took today of my father in laws 140gr Interlok. Notice complete failure with jacket separation.

FMC did the bullet fail to kill the animal or did it require more than one shot? What cartridge was this fired from? Is it really a bullet failure just becaues the bullet came apart if it killed the game animal? I figure if I took my game with the one shot and the minimum amount of tracking then the bullet and I did our jobs.

I do think that Barnes bullets have a purpose and that is in magnum rifles at close ranges. I use pretty much standard hunting calibers like .270, .30-06, .338-06, and .35 Whelen hunting bullets tend to stay together at the velocities I'm launching them at. My .270 is the only rifle I hunt with that breaks the 3000fps mark and that is with 130 grain bullets. The rest of my rifles stay between 2400 and 2800fps and at those speeds I don't think that Barnes offers improved perfomance vs the cost over regular hunting bullets.

I'd rather have a Hornady bullet that looked like the photo but recovered from the game as opposed to an old Barnes X that penciled through soft tissue only with no game recovered.

Well guys, I just read through all the post you have made about the differant

bullets , WOW . So much said I lost track on some of it. I guess I am just

dumb. But I do agree shot placement plays the biggest role on any bullet you

choose. For me I am fairly new to reloading so I was in over my head when it

came to all of the differant bullets I could use. So I order a few of several

You know diferant weights styles and such. But ended up on the tsx 150gr 30cal.

I shoot a 300wsm at about 3100 fps . I harvested 3 whitetails this year with

this bullet . All one shot kills from 150 out to 220 yards. Complete pass

throughs each leaving a quiet a exit hole. Sliver dollar size I say . But this

does not mean that this is the only bullet out there and the rest are crap.

So far it works for me and I do like small groups. But even at this they are

high priced to shoot at the range.

7 Mag, I doubt very seriously that you'll ever have a bad experience with your bullet choice. Anything is possible, but that 150 TSX will do just about anything you want, even elk.

Don't confuse the old Barnes X with their latest and greatest TSX when reading posts. (MRX is actually newest but haven't seen many tests on it yet).

I've actually talked with some outfitters that said do NOT bring a Nosler partition since they've lost a few elk to those bullets. I laughed. The partition is pretty much the benchmark for which all premium bullets have come from. One of the best bullets ever, and I was told not to bring it. (They preferred Failsafes, and Aframes, and Barnes).

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
I've actually talked with some outfitters that said do NOT bring a Nosler partition since they've lost a few elk to those bullets. I laughed. The partition is pretty much the benchmark for which all premium bullets have come from. One of the best bullets ever, and I was told not to bring it. (They preferred Failsafes, and Aframes, and Barnes).

Sheesh.. Rediculous.. That just goes to show how biased some folks are, but I have to admit Ive got my biases as well. Sorry Doc but Im just not a big barnes fan either. They strike me as a dishonest lot for several reasons.

As for the bullets themselves, the way I see it a good "X" style bullet is designed primarily for penetration with tissue damage being a secondary consideration. A good approach for something like a tough African DG hunt, but IMHO there is really nothing on the North American continent that "nessecitates" them with very few exceptions. Lead core bullets just arent as fragile as they would lead us to believe. Ive always felt that way, and bullet comparisons on ballistic gelitan illustrate that point quite well. What Barnes calls "unleaded" in their lead core bashing adds do indeed penetrate considerably farther than the "regular" more conventional styles, but what they fail to point out is what they have to give up to achieve it, major tissue damage and that sacrifice can be clearly seen on said tests. No free lunches in physics.

I see the Barnes style bullets as an extention of magnumania and they go to great lengths to make folks feel that they "need" their products and "need" another 1000 fps. They both do have their place and their perks, but are not nessecarily what everyone "needs" for every hunt.

I dont wish to ruffle any feathers or step on any toes, just stating my honest opinion for the originators benefit. For that big bad STW I would second Phurleys advice or suggest some partitions. A less expensive alternative would be Grand Slams or Mag tips. Im a big Hornady fan myself, but I think they are best suited for old slow guys like me and the slow dated calibers I like to shoot them from..

I also agree that we should be free to exchange "opinions" on here without being put on trial because of someting we said. Thats certianly not the kind of disgussion that I come here for.

quote:

Sorry Doc but Im just not a big barnes fan either.

Hey, no need to say you're sorry. Some hunters like them, some don't. I also like my Ford truck, while you may be a Chevy guy. I have my opinions on the TSX, and Ty, at Barnes, has been nothing but helpful 100%. If somebody doesn't like Barnes, or Swift, or any other maker, they have their reasons.


In my experience, the only problem I've had with the various bullets is that I found box after box of various weights. If the bullets were 270, 140 grain, they weighed b/w 137.5 and 141. That is too much of a spread for my liking. I'm a Hornady fan too, but not for accuracy. Only their performance on game, which is superb. The only bullets I've been able to get great uniformity from (before TSX) was Nosler, the Btip. They just have great quaility control.

Then, I tried the TSX bullets and got the same results. So, with what I found out of the box, and now, what I've seen in the field, and at the range, I found a tough, accurate bullet that was easy to load.

I just couldn't get that with the Hornady bullets. I tried for years but just never got any groups to brag about.

For hunting accuracy, my favorites are the Btip and TSX, both at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of construction, while the AB and Partition fall somewhere in between.

Before the TSX, I was the guy announcing not to use Barnes for all of the reasons already mentioned in this thread as well as many others.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I see the Barnes style bullets as an extention of magnumania and they go to great lengths to make folks feel that they "need" their products

Well, honestly, ALL bullet makers do this. I've seen more ads for the Hornady Interbond than any other bullet. ALL manufacturers of just about anything advertise how we Need their products.

Look at Budweiser beer! They go to GREAT lengths telling us we NEED that brew!

Ultimately, I encourage everyone to find a bullet that meets or exceeds their expectations. If you want a large exit hole, no worries about penciled bullet performance, a huge mushroom, weight retention, then, find what you are looking for.

I use the forums to read, and post, my results, good or bad with whatever I used. Just because I like something and someone wishes to try the same, they may not like the results. Shoot what makes you happy, I do.