Scott, the guy just loves to argue, there is no explaining your side of it he doesn't even care. He believes only his view counts and will hammer all others until they step out of the conversation.
Trolls the bait past you asking for an opinion only to tear down your opinion, your time is better spent on something else!

Got the feeling its a waste of internet ink...

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Scott, the guy just loves to argue, there is no explaining your side of it he doesn't even care. He believes only his view counts and will hammer all others until they step out of the conversation.
Trolls the bait past you asking for an opinion only to tear down your opinion, your time is better spent on something else!

I know and that's fine, I think when Pdog sits at his computer typing and later when he's out walking around outdoors at his place that's what he thinks he really sees! Great, super, in Pdogs world his agenda is correct.

What I am still learning myself is that my perception of the world, events, facts, issues, ideals and phenomenon's ain't everybody else's perception. Case in point, after 20 years of living here in Brown Bear Central, aka Dillingham AK, I don't fear in the slightest either gun control or bears. Others do, and in this and other topics have gone on at length to say so, but I don't. What I find bothersome is when those fellows that have never been in Wyoming the way Ravenr has or in AK the way I have insist that I'm wrong! "There in your world Scott, you need to think or see things a different way!" Fine I say to myself, and go outside on my driveway where there's been actual bear paw prints this year to have another look. I sip my coffee,...........Wander around a little,....... Scratch my butt, wander around a little more,....... Go see if the lawn needs mowing,.......... Huh, still don't need to have my pants drug down with a pistol hanging on my hip.

p dog I truly get where you're coming from and what's at stake in a gun "unfriendly" place like Canada. This will be an awkward post lest I be accused of harbouring poachers, it's anything but. The reality is I know for fact of dozens of "defensive" bear shootings here in BC through people I meet largely at work, some are even friends. All are unreported, and they are so common folks don't bat an eye. Most of them are very good people, but very inexperienced with bears. One particular fellow's two grizzly incidents were some time ago, and without going into detail two sows were destroyed close to a remote camp he worked out of. I'm as against poaching as anyone here so before there's a rally to bring these hundreds of men in BC all to justice you have to understand that's not at all abnormal here in Northern, remote BC. BC has so many bears both grizzly and black people in many places view them as coyotes. It's disgusting, it's also reality, and every year more folks relate their bear shooting. A recent one paraphrased was, "We were walking down to the lake and this bear is on the trail and starts thrashing this little poplar right in front of us and popping its jaw, good thing we brought the gun almost left it behind!" Makes a guy very angry to listen to but also that's the culture, and every suburbanite seems to think he needs a gun to be in the bush these days. Gone are the hippy days where folks spent countless days in the woods unarmed and that was considered normal.

Now the Internet will assume these are either hogwash or gospel depending how it suits the argument, I personally couldn't care less take your pick, personally I wish this wasn't the case. I spend more time in the deep bush than at the house, 16 days in, 12 days out flying helicopters in BC / Yukon / NWT / Alberta, and I outfit and guide for grizzly hunts in the fall on the North Pacific coast of BC so I see a lot of northern (bear) country. I honestly didn't understand the extent of the problem before I was living out in the bush. In more populated areas, there's a check and protection for the bears; the risk of being caught. In northern BC that doesn't exist at all as at any given time you can easily be fifty miles from another human being. Even further from one who would report you for shooting a bear.

I've had to destroy one bear, with CO permission, it was attempting to tear its way into the kitchen in camp, a starving old boar with rotten teeth. Those aren't unavoidable, as we're in their house not them in ours, but they're harder to avoid. He was sprayed, another guy shot his butt with birdshot, and air horned none of it worked he was determined. These aren't the scenarios I'm talking about. The "better safe than sorry" incidents are what I discuss and here in BC there are thousands of those, mostly black bears but a startling number of the stories involve grizzlies too. Even a guide I know shot a grizzly defensively last year, properly reported however, had he had spray likely would have been another bear around still. Another guide I know and his father shot a sow on a trail at a handful of yards that was acting aggressively about ten years ago, that one also reported, and also dubious in my eyes. These are experienced folks, put out the guy from the Vancouver suburbs with his new shotgun and let him bump into a started sow on a trail and what happens? Even if he has spray, think he's going for that first?

My stake in this is personal, we own an outfitting territory and these bear deaths hit me in the pocket book. Beyond that though I find it angering, and it's a hard one for me to grasp as these are not bad people doing this. It's a frontier culture and mindset and it's horribly destructive. Then add the inexperienced down south of the province and territories who venture into the bush in the mix, and it becomes a mild disaster. Guns are bad for bears. We need to understand that, and educate ourselves, and prepare accordingly with alternate methods of getting rid of bears; spray, bangers, horns. Above all education though.

Again, p dog I understand where you come from and why, but it's not the case here, the sensible average armed bush citizen. There are a lot of folks who want a bear defence story at least here in BC too, and that's perhaps the most disastrous part. I'm suspicious of humans and human nature, not trusting of it by default, combined with what I've seen that mindset influences my opinion naturally.

Very well said Mr. Morrison.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
p dog
I have a 1/2 dozen friends and fellow guides
that carry the scars of "their" Grizzly encounters.
To a man they will tell you that it happened so fast that there was only enough time to realize
that IT was gonna happen.
These guys are well versed with handling firearms. Several had LOADED rifles in their hands and didn't have time to defend themselves.

Some time ago I read a report that I think originated from BC which pretty much states what you say here.I guess it pretty much does not matter what you have for self defense ,because odds are it will happen so fast that you don`t have time to respond.

Not always OLBIKER but the close surprised determined ones are gonna get to you.
Have literally walked into them mere feet away and so far they have all gone away so fast
there was only a glimpse to confirm it was a bear. So far....

I was at a WY F&G presentation where we got to try inert bear spray. I do not know if this is sold for practice purpose or not. It was pretty quick to get the little safety gizmo off the can and spray. The spray was pretty impressive in the area it covered. Cannot say if it would be fast enough to get a spray off to stop a surprise attack, but guessing as fast as a gun.

I live in a house that the prior owner had a bear in the kitchen. Seeing bear nose prints on the front door window is not uncommon as is seeing bears. I always have spray and firearms available should one get out of line. I almost sprayed a small black bear this year that would not run with me yelling at it and the dogs barking. Just did not think it was called for as it was not causing any problems. But spray was my first choice even with a bear tag in my pocket. No need to shoot a 125 pound bear.

I go for carrying both and hoping never having to use either. I also like having the bird dogs with me as they often smell and or see the bears long before I do and can run them off.

I have hunted and killed black and brown bears and a well placed shot puts them down. If I could do that in an emergency who knows. Hope I never find out

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
Not always OLBIKER but the close surprised determined ones are gonna get to you.
Have literally walked into them mere feet away and so far they have all gone away so fast
there was only a glimpse to confirm it was a bear. So far....

One just need to see a few run through the woods just realize how fast they can be just amazing.

Some times they seem just to bonce off the trees as they run.

But there are plenty of documented cases where people have saved themselves with spray or firearms.

As we seen in many cases of self-defense situational awareness is huge and realizing it is happening is huge.

How many times has one heard I didn't think or believe it is happening to me.

How many times did some one hesitate a second or two because the social and legal aspects making it to late to react properly.

I spent decades studying and instructing defending oneself all the above come into play.

Some people are just lucky and get the job done some relies on skill and get the job done some times it is both luck and skill.

Each and every case is enough different to draw hard and fast rules. To say if I do A then I do B I do C this well happen doesn't always work that way.

Some times one has to jump from A to Z it can be as simple as standing still to having too, if I don't defend myself right now I am going to die.

There attacks so fast and violent that one can only react after the fact.

But there are plenty of attacks one has time to mount a defense. If one recognizes that some thing is happening and reacts to it.

Don't act like a squirrel in the middle of the road, if you do you'll just get run over.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...man-inside-home.html

More idiots ! Nothing like a well fed [by people ] black bear to cause problems .

ummm...unless I am missing something she never used her bear spray so...how can you call this a bear spray failure

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
ummm...unless I am missing something she never used her bear spray so...how can you call this a bear spray failure

The same should be said of people who don't have a chance to use their firearm.

A double standard has been seen

You have to spray the bear for it to be effective. There is a video with a bear eating some gals kayak where bear spray was involved but it looks to me like a miss as the bear is too far away
. the handgun defense is reassuring to some but nearly half the Times a handgun is used on a bear the user ends up getting mauled anyways.

quote:

the handgun defense is reassuring to some but nearly half the Times a handgun is used on a bear the user ends up getting mauled anyways.

I would like to see the cit for this fact.

I just read an article called "bear spray versus gun debate is "ridiculous". In it the author says the info I was referring to is flawed. I remembered reading a long time ago about bear spray being very effective without any serious injuries to the users which is true btw and over 50% of firearms users get mauled after shooting which apparently is not substantiated.

Shoving ones arm down a bears throat is a hard way to fight a bear.