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Around August 5th last sentence she tried to use spray but it didn't help. A 20-year-old woman was flown to an Anchorage hospital after she was mauled by a brown bear Tuesday near a popular recreation spot on the Kenai Peninsula. The Alaska Dispatch News reports that responders were called to the Upper Skilak Lake boat launch after reports that a brown bear had attacked a woman. Central Emergency Services Capt. Terry Bookey says the woman suffered bites and scratches to her head, back and arm. She was conscious and breathing when emergency personnel reached her and her injuries were not life-threatening. "It sounds like she had some pretty significant injuries and will have a long road ahead of her," Bookey told the paper. Bookey says the woman tried to use bear spray but found it did not help another one The couple emerged upon a knoll about the same time the animal arrived from the opposite direction uphill. The bear and hikers were only about seven to nine metres apart when they spotted each other. “They kind of starred at each other for a second, then the bear bluff-charged and stopped,” Butler said. “Then the bear lunged at the female, grabbed her arm, threw her to the side and the bear then just immediately ran off into the trees.” Butler described the bear’s reaction as standard and said it took the path of least resistance to escape. He said the woman, in her mid-20s, had bear spray holstered to her hip but simply couldn’t respond fast enough. Another from northern MN BWCA 09/09/2015 12:47PM Week before last Knife lake campsite 2186 had big cinnamon in camp early morning trying to steal a pack - wouldn't leave- he got a blast of bear spray. He still hung around awhile - huffing around the cam perimeter eating berries. | ||
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Nothing - spray or gun is ever going to be 100%. Last year in northern Alberta I sprayed a big black bear sow that tried to get in the stand with me after several bluff charges, climbing the tree huffing, growling and hissing all the way to me. I've never had a more determined bear in forty years of hunting them. She really had it in her mind that she wanted to get me, which kind of surprised me. I didn't want to shoot her so I hosed her with bear spray at arms length. She climbed back down the tree and retreated still pretty disgruntled but she did back off. I did of course have a backup to the spray. I realize it wasn't a grizzly but it did prove to me bear spray can work. But nothing will ever work all the time under every circumstance. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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So do you really think she would have done better with a magnum handgun? "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Couldn't have done worse | |||
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So she gets the handgun drawn in time.... she still has to hit the creature with a shot in CNS to stop the charge/mauling. Fogging them with bear spray is still the safest bet. | |||
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There No proof of this. | |||
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Bear spray, or gun, assumes there will be time to react, often there isn't. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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When one studies actual bear attacks there is often warning signs and time to react. Of course there is always exceptions. | |||
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No it is not it just cost money. Some companies actual make practice inert sprays a least on the LEO side of things. Heck any aerosol can with the same spray pattern could be used. some wasp and hornet sprays come very close. | |||
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Absolutely correct. The "stories" of failure do not prove failure of spray and that a firearm would have worked at all. Bear spray is not a pistol, you can adjust the spray while using it to get on and stay on target. If you can't hit with spray, your f%@&ed with a pistol, period. If you can't control your fear, how is either spray or a firearm going to help you? What is the anti spray agenda? | |||
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What's the anti firearms agenda. Spray in normally pushed by the anti firearms and anti hunting crowd. The only thing spray does, is insures the bear will not be killed right then and there. | |||
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P Dog Shooter, There was no "anti firearms agenda", you started the post with a couple of anecdotal scenarios and people replied. And if, as you say, spray insures that "the bear will not be killed right then and there" then I would call that a great success. And as a person who HAS killed a bear in self defense by basically shoving a rifle barrel into its face and pulling the trigger. I can assure you that I would much rather have had spray. Fortunately it died instantly, but I certainly realize that if the shot was off, things would have ended dramatically different. Having game wardens and bear management specialists all come out to investigate and then waiting for their determination is not something I would wish on anybody! I now have a can clipped to my shoulder strap at all times. "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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First off there is an anti firearms agenda and disallowing firearms for self defense is in their play book. Second you do not know that the results would have been different if your shot would have been off, that assumption is just a guess. You had a successful defensive shooting what you think does not change that fact. You do not know if spray would have worked. Both stories I have post were reported and investigated I don't see how that makes them anecdotal scenarios. What is anecdotal is your guessing what would have happened in your case. If some thing else would have happen. You call the bear not dying a great success. I would only call it a great success only if it doesn't maul you. If it makes contact with you and mauls you it well be hunted down and killed. I doubt it makes any different to the bear when it is killed. Use spray if you want that's a personal choice. But it is not the magic wand that some keep on pushing. | |||
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Lets do a little side by side comparison with spray and firearms. Range spray very limited Firearms at least 10x of spray some a 100x weight depends on the make and model firearms for the most part well weigh more. Weather Spray highly effected by wind and rain modern firearms weather has little effect on their use. History Spray a very short history Firearms hundreds of years of proven use for self defense. Time to deploy About the same Recommend for use against armed attackers Spray not recommend 99.9 percent of Law enforcement agencies do not recommend spray be used against a armed attacker. They do not trust spray to stop a armed attacker. Bears are very strong and are armed with some very effective contact weapons. Would you prefer spray to a firearm if a man with a knife was threating you at close range. Spray failures against human attackers are very common. Spray successes and failures against bears are rare. Hardly enough for to draw a conclusion one way or another. http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...laws-in-studies.html http://www.examiner.com/articl...per-spray-or-firearm For me I well chose the most time proven effective means available. | |||
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A more interesting side by side comparison would be the more than one poster here who lives in bear country and favors the spray as opposed to the posters that do not live in bear country and favor the firearms. Hmm, whom would seem to be the more reasonable voice of wisdom? The experienced or the not? | |||
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I live in bear Country.How ever it is black bear not Browns or Grizzly.I have however dealt with grizzly in Montana.Backpacking in the Bob Marshall I walked up o a Grizz on a moose.I backed out of there and it never saw me.I have also have had them circle our tents while Elk hunting out near Gardner.I was sleeping with a 12 gauge loaded with buck.Never had to use it,but it gave me more confidence than a can of spray could.We have so many Black bear around here it is ridiculous.One time I used spray on a pissed off badger and it did nothing but piss him off more.I am not saying it is no good,but feel much better carrying a side arm.JMHO,OB | |||
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I live in bear country also and hunted, travel camped and back pack in grizzly country. I been extensively trained with spray and carried every day as part of my job. I would not count on it to stopped a determined attacker human or animal. I have shot bears at muzzle touching distance more than once. When they were wounded and mauling their victims. I can tell you a hard cast 41 or 44 mag ended the attack right then and there. The biggest was over 500lbs and was severally mauling its victim. The muzzle of my 41 mag was pressed against the bears head and triggered pulled. Dead bear attack ended. One only has to see the after math of a bear getting ahold of its victim and see the massive damage a bear can to in a couple of seconds. I seen the results of several bear attacks up close and personal. Granted these were not human victims but they still cost the owners of the bear hounds thousands of dollars in vet and vet hospital bills. One guy was offer 10 grand for a hound and it was killed by a bear a week later. I am sure the hound owners would much rather one would run up to a bear that is mauling a very expensive dog and spray it. Just last year I worked my way into a wounded bear that was fighting the dogs in very thick brush and swamp. It was a fairly small one only 350lbs I stepped through the knee deep water and thick brush to where I could see the bear the dogs parted. The bear turned towards me and I placed a 315gr hard cast 44 bullet at 1320fps through the bears brain and ended the matter right than and there. Heck it was a fairly long shot of at least 8 feet. I am sure spray would have worked better/S/ I have seen and shot some very pissed off wounded bears up close and personally. I would not have wanted to have spray in any one of those instances. The only paper work that needed to be filled out was the kill tag. Granted my experience of shooting mad pissed off bears is limited compared to some. Of course the objective was to kill the bear not to see it run off and live another day. | |||
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Is there any info out there on the use of something like a compressed air ,hand held fog horn ? | |||
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Bigger, bulkier and more awkward than a can of bear spray. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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I hunt and ride about exclusively in Grizzly country. Keep my wits about me and carry a rifle. Never had a problem. Picture I took last fall of a potential bear encounter. I'm sure the hunter sitting on the ground never knew how close he came. Betting he'd have crapped his pants. This could have turned nasty. There's a sow Grizzly with three cubs running full blast up the hill, extreme distance obviously and I considered myself lucky to get the picture. The hunter is that little light dot near the top, sitting on the ground.  Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Well I sure can't argue with your logic. If you would have just told us that the objective of all of your encounters is to simply "put a bullet through their brain at 8 feet and then fill out the kill tag" then your choice of a gun is certainly proper. Bear spray would definately not work for you! My encounters are frequently not hunting related and therefore potentially more legally (and ethically) problematic. I think I'll just continue to carry both and if possible deploy the spray as my first line of defense. Good hunting! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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The objective of writing about the shootings of the two bears in my post was to show you when one really needs to stop a mad pissed off bear from doing what it is doing. A well place bullet works very well. That they were killed during a legal lawful hunting situation was to stop any rumors or questions on the legality of the shootings. I too have had many contacts with bears in non hunting situations and never had to kill one in those situations. Two came very close but they stopped their actions before being shot. Defending ones life from death or great bodily harm by the use of force is legal in all 50 states and I find nothing ethically wrong with it. At no time in any of my discussions on spray vs. firearms have any discussion of doing anything illegally been mentioned. Having instructed firearms and the use of force for decades to hundreds of LEO's I am very familiar with the legal requirements. If one can extract themselves from a self-defense situation and not have to use force all the better. As seen and shown many times a bear that makes contact with you can inflict death or great bodily harm in a matter of seconds. But if a bear is intent on doing me harm I well use the most effective tool to stop that attack. | |||
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I will use a handgun regardless. | |||
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To those who said practice; good point. Buy three cans, one to practice on a cardboard cutout, one to carry and a spare if you can afford the weight. I sprayed a bear from about five yards last year, all it did was become agitated, backed off a yard or two. Wasn't impressed. I also don't want to (and can't, I'm an outfitter and it costs me personally) see bears shot as it's more convenient than spray or bangers. If you have the room, have a couple options, bangers are good on bears unfamiliar with them. Spray's hit and miss and surprisingly short range, also not aircraft compatible. The short range bit gets many people to waste the spray too early, again practice with it. A moment for calm and slowly backing out, cell phone picture so it makes everything look twice as far away.  | |||
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Completely agree with Angus. There are way too many bears shot every year that were bluff charging and the person, with little bear experience shot them. Yup what is comfortable for experienced bear people is severe pucker factor for non bear people. Point is that the bears should not have been shot. I have seen bears react in the way you would hope from bear spray, but I have also had a bear just get pissed right off and go into a rage when I sprayed it. Nothing is perfect. I have said it before and will say it again, if you are going to play in bear country there are certain inherent risks. You need to live with it. The bears are just being bears. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Absolutely Kelly, I just put this in the other thread, I also think more bears are dying both reported and unreported at the hands of inexperienced folks armed in the backcountry, this one really bothers me. Most hunters I meet, some accomplished, that say if a bear moves at them it gets lead, part of me understands. Then I talk to fishing guides on the north BC coast who conversationally admit they've been bluff charged by grizzlies multiple times on the river during the salmon runs, they understand it's just bear communication 99% of the time. Tough to tell somebody who's not living with them the ears will tell you if you're going to get hurt or not, and also we can't have as many defensive shootings as have been occurring. Much as I hate to admit it, there was one good "Bear Aware" course I was forced to attend for work. A young female biologist purposefully incited grizzly charges on camera to demonstrate the communication aspect. She even approached a sow and cub, then proceeded to show the back away deal if memory serves. I went in groaning and came out highly impressed. Many would say she's stupid, and yes there was risk there, but she also knew her craft better than 99.9% of the people in the bush. Bears didn't evolve with guns, they developed knowing they're the baddest things in the bush and with grizzlies at least can scare just about anything off with a quick bluff charge. Guns, and our distancing from the wilds and greater unfamiliarity has meant an awful lot of bears get shot due to misunderstanding as Skyline points out. Things that were once commonplace, bear bells for instance, are now viewed as the sign of a bush novice here in BC- the only thing funny are the people snickering at the bells, calling them dinner bells. MOST grizzly attacks are still by startled bears that didn't sense you approaching, especially sows with cubs, as happened in the instance I know the most about out of the recent attacks. The number of bears destroyed by defensive shootings combined with those destroyed as problem bears acclimatized to people, a less preventable dynamic but still one education assists greatly in, are enough that Alberta could have a Grizzly season for hunters, and BC could have many more tags. Most "defensive" shootings go unreported under the "Shoot and shut up" doctrine, as folks are afraid of the Conservation Officer's response as they treat them a lot like a criminal investigation. Anyhow so much more can be added... but I'm rambling already! | |||
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  ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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I am sure that is very true in a lot of areas. | |||
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 Wyoming Game and Fish reports Spray is 92% effective vs. Firearms 69% effective Wyoming is certainly NOT anti-gun. It still stands to reason that during a VERY stressful moment the chance of hitting a moving target the size of a tennis ball with a projectile the size of a thimble has a smaller chance of success than fogging them with spray. I also pack a pistol AND spray but have only seen a couple 100 griz in the last 5 years. | |||
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Ravenr Excellent points and the word of actual substantial experience. If we can't control our fear and we "John Wayne" every bear we encounter and call it self defense, we kill a bunch of bears that we don't have to kill. And why would we want to kill them unless we absolutely had to? I do not understand the Barney Fife approach to Griz encounters. | |||
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Can you provide a link to the study. It is one thing to report things it is another do actual study. | |||
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This cites it, I have no doubt the information is real, somebody will have better Google skills than I for the original. https://www.wildlifemanagement...bear-spray&Itemid=95 | |||
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Here is another one...... http://www.fws.gov/mountain-pr...zly/bear%20spray.pdf http://www.cbc.ca/news/technol...bears-study-1.707738 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_spray I don't think anybody posting here is trying to say that spray is the ultimate solution and that you should only carry spray, I carry my gun EVERYWHERE, EVERYDAY. But spray is a great non lethal option for hunters to have available and is the best option for anyone that has not achieved extreme proficiency with arms and is not also familiar with bear behavior. There are lots of idiots that will shoot at any bear that comes near them or one that stands up on its hind legs to have a look at you. Good luck with your crusade, unfortunately it is unsupported by fact. "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I think you hit the nail on the head. Having both is a good idea if appropriate at the time. Neither is ever going to be 100 percent no matter what. Someone saying bear spray won't work is silly and seems to be always followed up some macho I'm gonna blast'em to hell story. Either way an agenda doesn't have to be attached to either choice. It's just a personal decision we all have to make. They both have their good and bad points - if you have the time to deploy them. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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If you have not read this also one should. http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...laws-in-studies.html A lot of the problem tend to come from how the research is conducted and the business and political agenda of the researchers. I have no problems if one wants to use spray I have a can around when camping in bear country. Yes it is a personal choice for sure. | |||
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Really can you please show us of all these mistaken shooting. Should not be hard to come up with some examples. | |||
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p dog I have a 1/2 dozen friends and fellow guides that carry the scars of "their" Grizzly encounters. To a man they will tell you that it happened so fast that there was only enough time to realize that IT was gonna happen. These guys are well versed with handling firearms. Several had LOADED rifles in their hands and didn't have time to defend themselves. In the case that started out this thread I got the feeling that they were not to experienced in the Bear dept. If I remember right the bear appeared,stalled momentarily, bluff charged and then made contact. It also sounds like she got off pretty lightly with some wounds but as you said it can be pretty horrible. She was lucky and now has some neat scars to show her grandchildren. I have not encountered a bear that couldn't be stopped with spray. Whether defending, aggressive, too close, camp raiding, or squatting on my elk kill. The above photo was from last Oct and I rode by 2 seperate griz that day at 40 YARDS. I rode into a sow with 2 cubs and another big "single" bear in the dark just 3 weeks ago. Most folks can't deploy and operate spray under that stress, at that moment, I sure would hate to have some Long Ranger Pistolera slinging lead under the same stress around ME. Seen a WHOLE lot more bear butts than bear teeth, thankfully. Been a total of 6 fatalities these past few years near my home. Bears killing people. I stay pretty wary and tuned in when I'm out but we are covered up with folks that can't tie their own shoe when in the woods. 3.2 million visitors to YNP this year and they only managed to eat 1. Chances are we will wear out a pistol and many cans of bear spray before we ever need to use them. Have a good evening. | |||
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Ravenr, Your horse's ears look pretty perked up. Cool picture. Couple months ago my son and his girlfriend were riding their horses in the backcountry and a black bear came up out of a little ravine onto the trail about 20 yds in front of my son. He said he got real nervous about what his horse was going to do, but the bear and horse just looked at each other and then the bear walked off and they mosied on up the trail. Scott | |||
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RAVENR You and I both have many decades of experience in the woods. Both of us have seen many bears butts, and a few faces that were to close. But it seems to me you have brought into the old anti's line is we can't trust people with guns they are all yahoo's. But the truth is we have not seen it millions of people carry guns for self-defense and only use them when necessary. Where are you seeing all the lead spraying where are you seeing all the misses and illegal bears shot. Where are the prosecutions for these illegal acts. I know of two bears shot in the NPs both were legitimate shootings with one shot fired each. Look at the facts not the emotions there at millions of people out in the woods carrying guns for hunting where are all the problems. A lot of the same ones carry for self defense off season. I don't see and don't find the facts that people are flying off the handle and spraying lead. Don't as a hunter and firearms owner fall into the trap of the anti hunter and anti gun owners that people who carry are not responsible. There is a real agenda by the antis both hunting and anti gun to delegitimize firearms. Just do a research of successful firearm saves one well find that very few shots are fired. You mentioned people who carried firearms that couldn't use them and count them as a firearm failure but discount the times that people couldn't use spray. Both are either a failure or should be discounted in total. A good study does one or the other. If one takes in the facts of one and leaves out the facts of the other it is not a proper study and well screw the results one way or the other. That what we have seen in the firearms vs. spray studies they have taken all the positive of spray and left all the positive ones for firearms out. | |||
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Both Ravenr and I live in stated that are beyond gun control and the reach of gun grabbers. I'm sure that's hard to understand, but its true. Firearms out here and the individual ownership of firearms of all flavors is simply settled ideology. We can't buy into the "old anti's line," there isn't one here, we don't read it, we don't hear it,.......it just doesn't exist. Undoubtedly you'll disagree with me, but then again you don't live where we do so you just won't and can't know. | |||
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