Well,

Since all you geniuses say I am wrong I guess I must be full of it.

X-Ring,
So your a biker. Which club are you a member of? I have several friends in the Cleveland Chapter of a rather large Motorcyle club. If you ever are in town and your affiliation isn't problematic we could all get together and raise a little _ell.

I did not realize that Washington had been completely turned into a New California were is it perfect and only furry little huggable critters live (with the exception of those pesky cougars and black bears but you guys will kill them off soon and make the woods safe for us PETA members).

Now the truth of this entire argument has nothing to do with Ranchers defending livestock. The issue here is that some people feel threatened by the reduction in deer and elk populations caused by the wolves feeding habits. This will cause a loss of revenue for the outfitters and lost trophies for the trophy hunters. OK them, go get'em boys kill'em all.

Oh, and I wouldn't be too quick to state how Ray has so much personal experience in the wilds of North America and I do not. I am not teenager (contrary to some of your hopes and dreams). Ray hasn't lived in the Northwest all of his life (he's a Texan). I lived up there over thrity years ago and left about 20 years ago. I don't need verification from some worthless magazine or statistics chart I lived it, BOY! There were grizzlies in Northern Washington and the Idaho pan handle back them. These bears now only reside in BC.

The only reason I said use the video tape was that there could be no arguement from the animal rights activist with that kind of evidence. You ranchers are always saying how you personally witness the attacks. So video tape them then shoot. Around these parts we call that a CYA (cover your ass).

One last thing. Get that, I'm a rancher/westener chip off your shoulders before your poor spine snaps. I grew up out there and I remember how it was. Montana (with the exception of the Western edge), as well as, Wyoming (again with the exception of the western edge) are about the most desolate ares in the US. Unfortunately you boys are living with the present and the terrible atrocities enacted upon the West by the California hords. I often wonder how many of you posting from Oregon and Washington are actually from those states originally or migrates from other states that don't know squat about how these areas used to be.

The salmon you are talking about (if there are any) are raised in hatcheries and not natural. The have been reintroduced so we should kill all of them too. After all salmon are predator fish.

You cowboys always were real good at making mountains outa mole hills though.

Todd E

I think maybe we aren't as far apart on this issue as we may seem. I think we just have different veiws on what the root of the problem is. As I said earlyer I don't want all the wolves killed either, and sence there already here we may as well learn to live with them, but not at the expence of the ranchers livlyhood. It's hard enough to male a living in the livestock game as it is.

I understand what you are saying about the wolves eating easy prey, and yes that is our fault. We killed off all their(elk) natural prediters, and some fifty years later we bring them back.

I don't know anything about the Washington argument you all are haveing here. Lived ther as a kid for a short while, but thats it. So I will let you all fight that one alone.

I 'm just mad because this issue was ramed down our necks by a buch of people who have no vested interest in what these animals kill!

Yes I'm a biker, and I don't mean motorcyclist. I don't wear a 1%er M/C back patch. That man died several years ago. You may have heard my buddie Longbob refure to me as a bible thumper. That is because he knows I'm a member of Servants For Christ M/M. We are made up of mostly former 1%er's and M/C members who are now serving Jesus and taking the word of God to the M/C world. If you or anyone else is so inclined we can be found at <www.setfree.org> If I'm ever in Clevland I will look you up. Allways great to meet a fellow rider. I promise not to hit anyone over the head with a bible or anything else

ThrophyHunter
I was in on the Mud Lake bunny bash's. Are you from the I.F. area to?

X-Ring

------------------
Sinner, saved by God's unfailing grace!

Todd, let me educate you a little bit about wolves. They do not operate on any balance of nature equation unless you believe in very wide swings in game populations over huge areas. Wolves will reproduce and kill game until there is no more, then move on to a new area and kill the game there. Their populations do not balance with the game populations except over extremely large areas and only when averaged over long time periods.
Sure there were wolves in the West before man came. Sure there is room for a few wolves there now. The problem that is being pointed out is that the elk are on concentrated winter range today, unlike before man showed up, because man occupies a lot of the winter range. Are you saying that since man has caused the concentration of elk such that they are easy pickings for wolf packs that we should not complain that they are decimating the elk herds on the winter range? It is not a question of stupid elk, though I am sure that the ones that do survive will be more wary of wolves. It is a matter of wolves having the opportunity to go after elk that are at their weakest point of the year in areas where winter range is limited. And yes wolves can bring down a healthy, mature bull elk very easily. They merely worry it to death - by one or two wolves making it defend itself while the others rest, they tag team it to exhaustion. Then it is an easy matter to bring it down.
I suggest you read Mech and others about wolves, and if you have Gray Sporting Journals from back in the late 1980s there is an excellent letter to the editor where Ted O. Williams is made to look like a fool for taking the same position you have taken on this point.
Here in Alaska we have more wolves and bears than ever. The Natives used to "den" wolves - kill the young in dens. They also killed ever bear they could regardless of time of year or whether they wanted the hide or meat. Modern game laws now discourage that kind of thing, and populations have boomed to the point where moose are almost extinct in some areas. In many areas the wolves are now preying on wild sheep because other ungulate populations are so depressed. In the Nelchina Basin there is an estimated 500+ wolves, up from about 12 in the late 70s. Carrying capacity is maybe 125 to 150. By the time the population of wolves is reduced by natural causes, dispersal and the trapping and hunting that is allowed, there will be no moose or caribou available for hunters at all. That is why those people are upset about wolf populations in the lower 48 because that is what they have to look forward to, especially since the prospect of any hunting or trapping to control populations is unlikely before there is a crises, and maybe not even then. You are like too many of the other people out there that have some fantasy about wolves living in harmony with the game populations. It just is not reality. Wake up.

X-Ring,

I don't ride anymore. My wife won't let me near any "donorcycles" or my other addiction either (drag race cars). I still have some friends that ride though and am happy to say they have sobered up, straightened out, and found God to. Let me know if you are ever in the Mistake and the Lake and we can hook up.

To me the entire predator issue would best be handle much like they have in Africa (at least in principal). Once the population is big enough then conservation applies and we can hunt the darlings. In this way the predator provides revenue and a more challenging hunt (IMO anyway) than deer.

I am done arguing with the MicroSoft crowd to.

Todd E

I am an old guy and I have seen the changes in several parts of the country. I generally agree with Todd's points. What I have seen on the hunt forums is that most "hunters" seem to prefer development and population increase to wild country and few seem to realize how trashed much of the US has become. (How many live next to a river that is not contaminated?)

Rob, I hunt and trap in the Nelchina basin and am about to throw in the towel on the area. It's not the wolves that are the problem, it's the horde of humans. There are a helluva lot of hunters, comparatively few wolves and caribou. The human population of Alaska is too big now for everyone to have "their moose" and it is growing rapidly. Don't know how long you've been in Alaska, but the recent(past few decades) expansion of human population is amazing. The sustained yield of big game is limited ultimately by available habitat. The maximum yield is essentially fixed(with periodic oscillations and natural variation) unless we eliminate all predators and basically farm moose and caribou. Which I guess is what most respondents prefer. Not my preference! I like the country wild.

I'm confused, are we talking about Canadian Wolves or Red Wolves? If they are true Red Wolves, I would tend to doubt that the story is completely true since I thought true Red Wolves are about the size of big Coyotes. I may be wrong on that, I'm just going by what I've seen in East Texas. They were once abundant in that region but are very rare to see today.

------------------
Good Hunting & Hunt Safe,
David

We are talking about gray wolves. I believe that the Yellowstone packs are of Canadian stock.

Daryl Douthat,
I haven't been to Alaska in 20 years. Your post makes me sad, as it sounds as if Alaska too isn't much like it used to be. I am with you though. I like the wild country as God intended it to be. Not some 3 million acre game ranch as so many of the posters on this thread would have it.

Todd E

So Todd , you like the country the way God intended it ? How are you going to get back to that ? How are you going to turn the clock back 300 years ?

Face it , the lower 48 states are stuck with us humans dirtying up the landscape , and we have to make the best of it .

For us hunters , that means keeping a tight lid on large predators , in my opinion .

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 04-01-2002).]

You know there was a sow grizzily killed some few years back in Washington. I'm not sure why she was shot but the feds went the whole nine yards and manage to find out who did it by using forensics(sp) as if a human had been murdered.

The facts of wolves and wolf behavior remain the same regardless of you opinion of them... OR your opinion of history, wildlife management, ranching, coexistence, etc.

Wolves, do indeed kill for food, fun and recreation. Somewhat like humans only without regard for self-imposed rules, regulations, and ethics. That is neither good nor bad... it's just the way it is. Some people call it reality.

That said, in the past 300 years American progrees, population, and expansion has displaced and eradicated every single natural predator on this continent. Including wolves, most especially. Now, in their absence, humans (who once hunted for necessity) hunt deer, elk, moose, etc. to fill this ecological void. The recreation and tradations of hunting are the periferal benefits gained by those who participate and misunderstood by those who do not.

As for the folks who's subsistance is somehow dependent upon or connected to ranching, their conception of wolves is quite diffent from the rest. And rightly so perhaps. As the question is not "if" a wolf kills livestock, but "when" and "how much".

It's not too different from the present day War on Terrorism. Think about it.

As for coexsistence with wolves here in the lower 48, it will never ever happen. No, not because game isn't plentiful; it's overly plentiful! It will never happen because Jimmy-Do-It-Yourselfer and Sally-Homemaker will not be willing to give up the house cat and an occasional small child or two! And that's as much human nature as killing is the wolf's.

These are just a few of my meanderings on this. And honestly they just go on and on. Like most of you I got an opinion, but opinions aren't necessairly answers. Especially those opinions formed by naive, ignorant, eutopic notions. They just compound and confuse the real issue.

But those are easy enough to spot and ignore.

My greatest fear is when these opinions are pressed (over zealously) by ecological evangelists into voting booths. Where decisions are made by ill-informed, emotionally exploited citizens rather than the designated, educated, and informed officials and agencies.... but even then....

-----------------

Damn this is a slippery slope!

Well, FWIW

Interesting thread. Some REALLY ignorant replies however.
There's no such thing as a Canadian wolf. They're called gray/timber wolves on both sides of the border.
There's only one animal on this planet that methodically eradicates a species in a given area, and they don't walk on four legs.
I have my serious doubts that a pack of a dozen wolves will kill three elk per day. I would rather attribute the deaths to CWD or some other disease.

If the elk had their "ears, nose and lips eaten off", I would say it's a cat doing the killing as they start from the head.

[This message has been edited by bearguide (edited 04-02-2002).]

X-ring, yes i am from the I.F. area my dad has a farm near mud lake. Now that was fun. Unless someone experienced it they have no idea there ever could be so many bunnies!

I know, sometimes I look back on that summer and fall, and I have trouble beleiveing it my self it seems like a dream. You could go out and shoot all day. You never seemed to put a dent in the population of the dang things. I wonder if you can find any pictures on the web? I fear picture wouldn't even do it justice. You really had to be there!
One morning we got on top of a hay stack before sun up so as to have a good vantage piont to shoot from. When the sun came up it was like the ground was moving. We opned fire and they all ran around haveing no idea where to go, and there was so many they couldn't really go anywhere. It was weird to say the least.
The drives where were it was really visable just how many bunnies there were. You could stand out there and club bunnies all day and never run out of rabits. It was kinda sad, but had to be done. I don't know that I will ever get that sound out of my ears. Nothing like being around a tens of thousands of dying rabits to test your hearing.
They should be about due for another population over run soon.
X-Ring

Hey I found a link for anyone who doesn't know what we are talking about. It even has a pic, but it doesn't do justice to the real population you saw if you where there.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/history/archive/193424.shtml

------------------
Sinner, saved by God's unfailing grace!

[This message has been edited by X-Ring (edited 04-03-2002).]

To sdgunslinger: We can't do much about the present population of the US and the consequent impact on game populations, hunting opportunities, clean air and clean water, but we can try to keep the problem from getting worse. The major problem is the enormous population increase that is occuring in the US. It has been fueled in large part by immigration and thanks to changes that were legislated in the 60's, we now have the 3rd highest rate of population increase in the world, exceeded only by China and India. I don't think we can or should solve the world's problems by overpopulating the US and I would hope that changes in the law and our attitudes toward growth would occur. We are also the only industrialized country that does not have a policy regarding population growth. Unfortunately, we seem to regard more as good. Without limit. That's why so many of the places that we used to hunt are now subdivisions and why so many areas have been trashed.

Todd: Alaska is changing very rapidly. Again, the major factor is population increase. Since you haven't seen it in 20years, you would hardly recognize the areas around Anchorage and Fairbanks and would be amazed at the development along the Glenn and Parks. Wasilla is kinda like one huge strip mall and the Palmer-Wasilla area is covered with large gravel pits with no visual buffers. I don't even go on the Kenai peninsula any more, but as one guy I overheard put it(and he felt this was a positive attribute!)the nice thing is that the Kenai isn't like Alaska. The streams in south central like Willow creek, the Little Su, the Deshka, even the Gulkana are now combat fishing and although I haven't fished the Kenai for a long while, it is apparently not a lonely experience.

There are still many lovely areas in the state, but finding one that is little used is getting a lot tougher. It's 250 miles one way by boat to get to the area I like.

Daryl, only been here about 20 years. Problem is not that human population has grown that much in that time - maybe 2% annually if that. Problem is that the people who are here have been here for a while, unlike in the old days when most people showed up, stayed 5 years, made a bunch of bucks, then left, and never learned where to hunt and fish. Now everyone knows where the fish and game is, and everyone has acquired the means of getting there (whether by raft, boat, 4-wheeler or otherwise). Yeah, the Nelchna Basin is crowded, but not like it was a few years back when the caribou population was up. The wolves have solved that problem. Maybe you have been here long enough to be one of the few urban residents to get a permit to hunt Nelchina caribou, but I seriously doubt it. I don't hunt Nelchina myself, and have no desire to, but it is nice to have some place where all the yahoos can go so they leave my hunting spot alone. As for the number of wolves there, my figures are those of the ADF&G (current numbers) and Mech (older historical numbers). Don't know why you think there are not very many.

Don't mistake me I am not saying eliminate the predators, but keep them in some sustainable numbers. I prefer relatively static, healthy populations of moose and wolves, rather than have wild fluctuations that are the norm in nature. As man, we have the ability through good game management to accomplish that.

The Lower 48's wolf problem is different than Alaskas. Here we can hunt and trap them. There they are not hunted and trapped, and it will be politically impossible to institute a season there - just look at mountain lions in CA. The game populations will be drastically lowered, and the opportunity to hunt will be greatly diminsihed.

Wild country ais great. If overpopulation is the problem, then the only answer I know is to kill yourself and do your part. Otherwise, we all have to deal with the fact that this isn't the old days, and make decisions based in present reality.

I don't know why these guys think that wolves don't kill for pleasure! I have shot a couple wolves right here in Iowa! I was told that these were Minnesota wolves that must of migrated down here. I shot them while they were chasing my cattle. Full grown steers not calves either.

Wolves are predators they can't help themselves they will kill everything they can until there is nothing left to kill. If we do not reduce or eliminate them we won't have any elk or deer left to hunt!

Kent

I thought you guys were talking about Australia and their rabit problems of biblical proportions.

Rob,

Appreciate your reply.

To respond to some of your points: The population of Alaska has increased by more than 100,000 in the past 20 years. Even a growth rate of 2% gives big numbers, it's just a question of time and the good old exponential curve. Alaska has had one of the highest growth rates of any state over the past 20 years. To go back a bit further, I'm sure you know how small Anchorage was before WW II even if neither of us was here to witness it. I sure you have also noticed a big increase in the Valley and Fairbanks in the past 20 years.The Mat Su has increased by at least a factor of 2. The population of the entire mat su borough was only about 30,000 in 1980. People may have learned to get around more but there are also a lot more of us. (Actually, the old timers that I know got just about everywhere including places that get accessed infrequently even now.)

My point about the number of wolves is just that there are comparatively few of them and a kazillion of us. I am tired of the attitude that they should be wiped out(and that is the attitude of many) in order to provide a game farm for residents of the Valley. Also, grizzlies play a major(perhaps even dominant) role in caribou and moose calf predation in that area. Try getting the game board(let alone the public) to recommend grizzly population reduction as part of predator control. Ain't gonna happen. I agree with you that avoidence of "predator pits" is important but by far the biggest impact on ungulate populations has been hunting pressure. The 40 mile herd was huge until the Taylor highway got constructed and the herd got decimated as it crossed the road. The herd is still hunted even though it is in the "pit".

I was one of the urban residents that got caribou permits in the Nelchina. I don't hunt there anymore.

As for your closing comment, I would hope for intelligent discussion, not simplistic statements like "kill yourself". Do you really think population growth is not a problem? If so,I would suggest reading E.O. Wilson's "The Future of Life". The problems of resource consumption and population growth are discussed quantitatively and I don't know a single scientist who disagrees with the projections. The folks who don't see a problem tend to be the ones who wouldn't know an exponential curve if they tripped over it.

Many people who consider population growth and the related probems in the US think an essential part of the solution is to restrict immigration rates to something like they were prior to the change in the law which has led to such a huge influx. Try to imagine another doubling of the US population. Do you think this is a good idea?

If you are interested in wolf behavior and how they interact with prey read The Wolves Of Isle Royale by Rolf Peterson.

In a nut shell...wolves and moose have lived on this huge isolated island in Lake Superior consisting of several wolf packs and a large moose population for decades. The moose and wolves arrived over an ice pack back in the 40's. It is still an on going study. The wolves have not decimated the moose population. Over the years the balance has shifted in favor of the moose vs wolf many times.

At this moment the wolves are in decline with only one pack remaining and the moose are going to over browse and kill themselves in the process through starvation. This back and forth balance runs in cycles.

If I lived in WY I wouldn't worry too much about wolves. I'd worry more about CWD, cronic wasting disease.