I post this thread with some fear and trepidation. The standard reason and justification for most rifles that are discussed on this website seems to be velocity. The quest for velocity goes on with the zeal of a religion and obviously no one can be counted as a true believer if they don't have at least one chronograph and it borders on treason not to chronograph every load. There is much weeping and gnashing of teeth if a particular load doesn't equal the velocity quoted in such and such loading manual.

And on and on this mentality seems to go. Many shooters will tolerate any amount of recoil, any amount of muzzle blast, any cost in components and tolerate whatever loss of barrel life...IF it will net them an extra 100 fps.

Personally I'm all for getting all the velocity I can safely get out of a cartridge SO LONG AS I can do so within the efficient bounds of each caliber. (Which generally means you couldn't run fast enough to GIVE me most of the magnum cartridges available. There are exceptions, but few.)

And then there are a FEW crazy people like Atkinson who have the balls to stand up with annoying frequency and suggest we SLOW IT DOWN!
What's worse, Atkinson and a few other crazy people have experience enough that most of us are afraid not to take them seriously when they speak!

My question is WHERE is the bullshit line on velocity? How much velocity is enough? How much velocity is TOO MUCH? How much wear and tear and recoil and expense should a shooter/hunter be willing to endure in the quest for velocity?

I've got some of my own theories and beliefs on this subject and doubt anyone can change my mind. Nor do I expect anything anyone else says on this thread to change many minds. Regardless, I'd like to see an exchange of ideas, theories and viewpoints on the subject. Tell me how much velocity is worth to you.

Now give me just a minute to slip on my flak vest.

Ray Atkinson - I hope I have spoken correctly for you about suggesting we "slow it down." It was not my intent to put words in your mouth, but I believe I have read such comments from you on several occassions. I apologize in advance if I am misquoting you here.

For me, that line is somewhere around 3,000 fps, a little more with the 22's. 3,000 fps seems to be where point blank range and shooting ability meet, in my case. FWIW, Dutch.

I think that the quest for higher velocity is something inherently American. We all want to drive big cars, with big engines, live in big houses, and eat super-sized fast food meals. Take French fries, they started out as an 8 oz. serving, and what are they up to now? Same thing with a soft drink, 8 oz. to 64 oz.! America is about being the best, and that usually means the biggest. American shooters are the same way, we started almost 100 years ago with the 30-06, arguably one of the most powerful modern cartridges in existence when it was developed. Then in the 60�s we started to prosper, so we needed the 300 Win Mag and the 300 Weatherby Mag. Then lately along comes the 30-378 Weatherby and the 300 RUM. What is the real gain of these cartridges for most hunting? 2 or 3 inches less drop at 300 yards, and this on a target this is 8 to 12 inches in diameter and usually less than 100 yards away!

We shooters also get into the reverse fad and want �mountain� rifles that weigh next to nothing, except we chamber it for the latest magnum, just to make sure it hurts when we pull the trigger. Then comes along the 300 WSM, so we can get the biggest, small cartridge possible.

I purchased a 300 Win Mag and find the recoil uncomfortable when shooting from a bench. Now I wish I had read more in this forum before buying the rifle and had gotten a 308 or a 30-06 instead. My rifles only redeeming factor is that it shoots 1 MOA, so I can�t bring myself to sell it. But, it will be the biggest rifle I ever buy, and probably the last magnum.

At least we are having fun along the way.

Ben

Pecos
Let me stand with you on this.
I used to hunt with a 243 Win Browning Safri grade. The most accurate bullet for it was the 105 Speer Round nose and the second most accurate was the Speer 105 Spitzer. The powder charge for both was 39.5 grains of IMR 4350, I have no idea what the velocity was.
All I knew was that this combo was the most accurate and it was pure death on deer. That's all I needed to know.
I done the same thing with my other rifles and pistols find the most accurate load and stop there.
Jim

For high powers, I like the 2800 - 3000fps line too... probably because I'm not as ancient as you old geezers who were weaned on 35Rem lever actions and lived before the advent of jacketed bullets and indoor plumbing.

I admire each caliber for what it is. Fast, slow, whatever it was meant to do.

Velocity is but one factor in shooting. Obviously you need some velicity to move the bullet; the question is how much?

I didn't know I stood with Atkinson on velocity, but if I do, I seem to be in good company.

Back when I was a pup and reading the hunting, fishing and shooting magazines and doing more day dreaming on the family farm than work, day dreams of far away places and long hunts, a common complaint in those magazines was bullet failure. This was a time when powder wasn't particularly slow and bullets were even slower, meaning slow powders were just a gleam in a chemist's eyes.

Those days bullet jackets were simply a means of getting a lead projectile to the target, the jackets simply being something that slipped down the barrel easier than raw lead. Being thin jacketed, bullets failed, even at the relatively slow velocities of those days. With one or two exception-exotictic exceptions-velocity was well under 3000 FPS.

Enter custom bullet makers. They solved, or seemed to solve the blown bullet problem.

Enter mad chemests and powder capable of pushing bullets to crazy velocity at safe pressures. Everybody was happy. Or so it seemed.

Jump to the present. Newly designed cartridges that hold powder by the bucket push even custom bullets to insane velocities. I call them insane velocities, because in my career, I saw a lot of people shoot. Mediocre marksmanship was and is the rule, not exception.

Two things indisputable about the new caliburs and insane velocitites: they kick and the bullet travels way to fast. Velocity has outstripped the desigen of premium bullets. I suppose some inventor is madly at work in a shop somewhere trying to turn spent urainum into a hunting bullet, a projectile that will penetrate a tank or deer with equal ease, open to a wonderful mushroom, "transfer" all energy to the target, then drop out the other side for the lucky hunter to find and admire and boast about. I forgot to add, the shot is made at 800, maybe 900 yards, using a scope that puts the Hubble telescope to shame.

Read these posts here and elsewhere. Bullet "failure" is a constant topic. A recent post had a fellow hitting a deer with a 375. The bullet "failed" and the deer ray off, required a short track job and was finished off. It turns the deer was gut shot. The fellow was man enough to admit it on a later post.

These forums discuss to death "bullet failure", but seldom discuss hunter failure. Failure to shoot a rifle he or she can shoot well and often. Failure to practice often and hard with the rifle before the hunt. Instead, the talk is of "magic" bullets and rifle that fire them at the speed of light. If we had both, all would be well in the game fields.

American hunting, I fear, has become gadgetized, a race of the next best biggest and fastest thing. How fast can we shoot? How far can we shoot? Stalking and steath and woodmanship are being, or have been replaced by the very things that make a walk afield worthwhile; the one that got away. The one that outsmarted us. And the ones that didn't and we went home successful.

On velocity; as far as I'm concerned, they left me behind when rifle makers left 3000 FPS behind. Anything over that is over kill, or no kill, since very few men can shoot the big guns well.

The last couple of years I've fallen off the velocity bandwagon. Most of my rifles have been downloaded and I don't see any lack of preformence. I load my 375 H&H to about 2500 fps which is close to the original loads. I load my 7mm Rem Mag to about 2800 fps. And I've been playing with a 6.5x55 for the last couple of seasons and it is certain death on deer sized game. And my favorite toy is a double in 450/400 3 1/4.

Seems to me that the heydays of serious big game shooting (africa, america, asia) was done with larger calibers at a slower speed. I think the gun makers and shooters have been trying to fix something that has never been broken. Also the advent of all these hyper-velocity rounds have caused many people to cease to be hunters and become snipers. Look at all the posts that pertain to 400-600 yard shots.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mac

I am with you Pecos and Aquavit! I want a .30 cal rifle that will throw a 180-220 grain projectile at, as stated above, between 2800 and 3000 fps. Anything from .366 to .416 can fly at 2400 fps and I'll be as happy as a pig in sh!t. Hell, get above .458 in diameter and 2200 fps or so would do just fine thanks.
Weatherby did a total disservice to the hunting community by fostering this obsession with velocity.

JohnTheGreek

I used to be a velocity nut and I still enjoy using my chronograph to see what a particular load is doing---but in the last couple of years I have found myself asking "is it really worth having to buy premium bullets just to be able to shoot everything as hot as I can get it?" All of the "dime bullets" are good bullets when they are used between 2200 and 2900 fps--which is what they were intended for to start with. (Yes, I know it's dangerous to make blanket statements--so take it as a general thing!) I noticed Kevin Robertson advocates slowing the 375 H&H 300 grainers down to 2400 fps in his book The Perfect Shot. These days I spend a lot more time just practicing shooting from field positions at unknown ranges than I spend working up loads. My Africa battery will consist of a .400 Tembo (404 Jeff. necked to .400 and shooting a BarnesX 350 grainer at 2300-2350 fps) and a .458 Lott with 500 grainers loaded to about 2200 fps. I do confess that I run the 75 grain AMAX's at 3540 fps out of my .224/6mm--but that's the only one I "hotrod." Think about the reputation of the 257 Roberts and 7x57 as killers. I understand whay some who hunt DG want more and more power--it just happens that I am not one who handles that kind of recoil with no effects. Guess I'll just have to plod along behind the field with the 2200-2900 fps slow-pokes and limit my shots to 350 yards or less. Oh well, I msut be getting old!

Good Hunting,

WOW! Not what I expected guys! I figured there would be some serious flame attacks for me even daring to question the sanctity of velocity. Instead I've gotten nothing but a slew of very intelligent and thoughtful answers. Thanks one and all.

I've had a chance to do a bit of reflecting since starting this thread and I guess none of us would turn down a cartridge if it could do 10,000fps, weigh 9 lbs, and not deafen us or break a shoulder on the first shot. No. Velocity is not a BAD thing at all. I just get tired of all the hand twisting and nail biting because because someone's velocity projections come in 40fps below expectations.

No, velocity is not a bad thing...but it doesn't mean squat if we don't have the bullet performance and by and large our velocity potential exceeds reliable bullet performance over and over. As one of you correctly said, the next big hot topic on these forums is bullet failure.

Obviously until our bullet technology catches up with our velocity potential...all this hot quest for more and more velocity is kinda like a dog chasing his own tail. NO? Good ideas one and all. I'm impressed!

AC - I used to be a velocity nut as well. I think all of us probably went thru that phase. It's part of becoming a reloader. Once we realize we can just keep pouring in more and more powder....we kind of all go crazy for a bit and it's a wonder more of us don't end up with rifle barrels blown out and wrapped around our necks. Lord knows I tried hard to blow my first rifle up!

But sooner or later we get smart and realize that's all BS. I had a chronograph, used it for about a month and got rid of it. I'm just not that worried about my velocity. Give me a load that shoots accurately. Give me the time to gain some proficiency with the rifle in field shooting conditions, i.e. getting to know the gun, and once this is done....who gives a hoot in hell what the velocity is? I've got to hit the target and the bullet has to stay together and perform.
That's what REALLY matters. That's ALL that really matters.

I think maybe a lot of shooters look at velocity as something that will magically make them a better hunter or shooter. I also think they may be looking for the Holy Grail.

One of the great things about America is we can have different opinions and different points of view.

I was always a "more is better" kind of guy with velocity, until I got my first chronograph. I found out that my most accurate .300 Win loads were tossing 180's at a mere 2850 fps and my supposedly HOT .22-250 wasn't really all that hot either.

Then I looked back on all the game I had killed with that .300 Win and started to look very hard at the various 06 based cartridges. They kick less, are easy to shoot and still kill well in 95% of the situations we find ourselves in.

I put together a .338-06 a few years ago and it shot 250 grain slugs into nearly one hole at a mere 2410 fps on average. I've used it for elk, deer and even several plains game species. ALL one shot kills. You don't NEED 3300 fps+ to kill something.

There is surely a time and place for the Ultra Mag,Weatherby Mag , and Lazzeroni types, but one can do just fine with a standard case.

FN in MT

Pecos,

I like our standard cartridges as shown by what I own;

.22 hornet
.22/250
6.5x55 (old mauser)
30/06
.375 H&H (on the way)
.416 Rigby
.44 rem mag marlin lever
45/70 Marlin lever
.585 (well not standard but no velocity king).

These cartridges will do better than I am capable of doing and I do not know wether I would get the benifit out of say the .375 RUM over the .375 H&H. Actually Pecos I am partial to heavy bullets rather than light high speed ones.

[ 12-10-2002, 02:31: Message edited by: PC ]

Cool subject... Given indestructable bullets, dammage to game would be a function of velocity, however, game animals superseed this by thier own strength and their weaknesses. Example, Of a 1000 animals shot by a lesser cartridge a percentage would run off for some distance. Had the ones who ran been shot by a greater cartridge Most of them probably would have run a similar/same distance. This why you oftan dont see a diff between say a 270 and 300 wby. You could in theory shoot 1000 each and get the same results. I picked the 270 and 300 because that is an oftan "step up" mistake people make in going "bigger".
The only diff I can see with the 270 and 300 is that at longer ranges the 300 can have slightly better penetration AFTER hitting bone.
There are so many "lesser" cartridges out there that get the job done. Hail to the 250 savage
Take care
smallfry

Pecos... you are correct I should have quantfied that. Yes assuming A and B are the same the 300 will penetrate at longer ranges. As you know I am not a Hi velo Magnum nut. Id just assume have it done with a 7X57, 270, or 250 savage.
Take care
smallfry

I'm young I like things quick and easy.

But there was a time when a 4 minute mile was an impossible dream, when it was impossible to even imagine building a V8 Engine, what a waste of time it was to devote energy to trying to build somethig that would not function.

I know my Magnum won't do that much more than a 30-06, I know it kicks pretty hard. But I bought it and I can certainly live with how hard it kicks. And I have fun loading for it. Most of all I like the expression I get out of old guys at the range when they read my Velocities.

But why was the .270 so popular? It was fast and flat. Same with the 22-250 and all of Akleys Improved cartidges. The 7mm Rem mag is the most popular magnum in the world or so Reloader Magazine claims. It offered speed and power that hadn't been seen before in a middle of the road hunting caliber. Sure there has been lots of stuff that was fast but those are the ones that stuck.

Advertising has a lot to do with it too. When I was looking to buy a new rifle the only advertising I could find out about was the then new 300 Ultra. It claimed lots of power and possibly a more inherntly accurate design. I couldn't find any claims for anything other than the 308 win. So I bought big. I bought big knowing I could slow it down too. You can load anything down but you can only go so fast and put in so much charge. And Power comes directly from speed. I can go even hotter in my Mag than what I load it for. When the mood suits me I do but normally I stick with what it shoots most accurately.

Mark

I agree with Pecos and other here. In the medium bore cartrigdes, with bullets of a ~.250-.280 BC, I like the 2800-3000fps range. When you go to large bores, or very high BC, I like 2200-2400fps. With small bores, I like 3200+fps. I think that is how things are suposed to work.

No doubt new cartridges are fun. And only getting 2 boxes of loaded ammo out of a pound of powder sounds like a blast. And a new barrel every 500 rounds is great, as long as I am not paying for it.

It was best said by some one else here, I do not recall who:
"I would feel bad for passing on my only shot opertunity on a hunt becasue it was too long. However, I would feel really stupid having to pass up a 100 yard shot because it was to close for the rifle I was carring."

Kristofer

[ 12-10-2002, 04:58: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

Hahaha KbGuns, come on now I can get almost 4 boxes of loaded shells out of a pound of powder 75 rounds per pound of re25.

Yep its inefficient. So was a 69 GTO. Burning tires off is expensive too but I think we all do it at some time.

Mark

I load for accuracy, period. Accuracy in my 270 comes at 2800-3000fps. Anything over 3000fps just shortens the life of the barrel and hurts accuracy. The speed freaks can have there ultrashortfatmegamagnums. I am perfectly happy living in the past with my outdated, obsolete, mundane 270.

ZM

Well I sort of agree with Pecos but I do have a couple of mag's. A 338 Win Mag bolt action and a 300 Win Mag in a Browning Lever Rifle. Mostly I have non-magnums. My new rifle is due in this week in 275 Rigby( aka 7x57), and I also have BARs in 270 and 30'06, and a Ruger 77RSI in 308. I used to really worry about the recoil of the mag round until I got these. I honestly don't feel much if any difference between the '06 and the 300 Mag. Of course the BLR 300 mag has the factory recoil pad and the BAR in '06 has the factory hard plastic plate. I've also got various oddball rifle rounds in single shot Martinis and a drilling but I don't really hunt with them.

I think each has their place, I'm shooting 165 gr. loads in the 300 Mag and I'm really satisfied with the trajectory, recoil and accuracy as a package for when I may have longer shots of 250-300 yards. I've settled on the 250 gr. load in my 338 at just under 2600 fps and really don't see the need for more. The 338 has a little recoil when shooting from the bench but you just have to remember to sit up straight so your body can move easier with it. I used it on game this weekend for the first time and never even noticed the recoil, it came down fast enough I could see the bullet impact at about 110 yards.

Nothing wrong with the 338WM, it is solidly in that happy spot on the ballistic charts.

Kristofer

Velocity rules??? Hell no Elmer rules!!

Markus, never think because a cartridge has the Ackley name on it that this is a guarantee of some wonderous new design. The same is true of the Magnum name and the belted case. You need to read all Ackley's books about 6 times. He was a neat guy and totally shaped my thinking for one. Anyway, he was always quick to point out ANY cartridge that he thought was worthless or otherwise had no great reason to exist. This included a LOT of his own! And he would have been the first to tell you. Ackely's name on a cartridge design in no more a guarantee of a great and wonderful cartridge that Gucci's label on a pair of shoes means you have found a great pair of hiking boots.

But however much some of my comments and PERSONAL preferences may sound it, this thread isn't to start a movement to remove all magnums from the planet. I think what I was really fishing for here was this: "Is everyone REALLY lost in this hype for velocity, more and more. More is always better?"

What I have found is NO. Nobody is fooled, really! At least not anyone who has responded thus far. Maybe I just posted this thread on the wrong forum, but I really expected to stir up a hornet's nest even asking the question. Apparently the Big Game shooters are a damned sensible lot! Dare I press my luck and ask the question on other forums?

[ 12-10-2002, 09:18: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Pecos, next you are gonna tell us the is no such thing a "knock down" or "stopping" power...

Kristofer

[ 12-10-2002, 10:31: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

PECOS45,
Awhile back I started a thread entitled "Do you really need a magnum?". There were quite a few sane replys that exhibited what I thought was good judgement. There were also some that seem to interpret the subject as a challenge to their RIGHT to own a magnum. Or maybe it was a challenge to their manhood. I'm glad the subject has come up again.

I have always thought myself lucky to have started hunting seriously with an '06. To be honest, the only reason it was an '06 was due to the experience I picked up at the request of the Marine Corps. I also had the luck to get into loading and lived in Alaska. I took everything in Alaska with that '06 and never had a problem until I went after brown bear. The only problem then was the fact that it took two shots. I used the 180 grain bullet on everything except the brown bear and there I used 220 Grain bullets. And then I got curious. With the exception of the newer cartridges, I think I've owned just about all of them. Those I didn't own myself, I helped a friend that had one. Looking back on it, not one of the magnums killed game any faster, or deader than the '06 did. There were however a lot of them that hurt me more or were more costly to shoot.

Now that my hard hunting days are about over, I've gotten rid of everything except an '06. I did reach a point where I had to have another toy to play with, it's a .308 Win. If I do go hunting again for deer or antelope, I'll use the .308. If I'm after elk, I'll carry the '06. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I cannot help but think that most of garbage about the magnums is just to help the gun makers cry all the way to the bank. I'd say that this was just my $.02 worth, but inflation has hit every where, so this is my nickles worth. Have a good one all.

PO Ackley is really clear about what constitutes an upper limit for velocity. Essentially it's "over bore capacity" -- or the capability of the caliber to burn most of the powder in the case rather than in the bore.

Straight wall cases with steep shoulders provide a Venturi effect which keeps powder burning in the case. This is the basic design concept for the Ackley Improved calibers. Steep shouldered cases also seem to provide a bit more velocity, and save the brass from stretching and flowing.

I like the light/fast stuff for small calibers -- .223 AI, etc. 40 gr bullets running about 4K fps. But the really big/heavy calibers don't need to move very fast to do the job. Also, the weight of the bullet keeps it moving without significant velocity loss over working distances.

In the defensive handgun, I think I like the slow moving 230 gr. 45 cal bullet much better than the fast, light, smaller diameter 9mm. When I opt for .357 magnum as a defense caliber (J-Frame snub) I opt for 158 gr. bullets rather then the faster 115 gr.

For big game (and I don't hunt), I'd want large diameter and heavy much more than "fast."

I skipped class on velocity-day apparently. I never look at that column. I like Energy. It tells me more about what I'm doing. I think it comes from my engineering and oilfield background.

We can tear up Mother Earth to some extend with Velocity / RPM, but unless you are applying adequate Force / Energy you're just scratching around wearing your tools out.

I get spooked listening to all the velocity talk; too much, too little. At the end of the day I have to rely on my own experience, not some anonymous person on the Internet. So I stay with the program that's served me well.

In the 300 WSM I could have carried the 180 gr. Fail Safe to Africa, but settled on the 150 gr. Ballistic Silvertip. I don't argue the merits of bullet types. They all have worked for me on elk-sized game. The 150 carried a tad more energy at the range I expected to be shooting. About 6%; not much. Not enough to make a difference probably. The Kudu and Gemsbok were dead when hit with the first shot.

Music to my ears is when the PH said hold your fire he's going down, as I jacked the second round into the chamber.

If you tell me how fast a bullet is traveling, I'll want more information. If you tell me how much in ft-lbs of energy it's packing. You've probably told me everything I need to know.

BigBob - Your firearms history very nearly mirrors my own...and my experience with various calibers. One cannot hunt for long (IMHO) without noticing that it is bullet placement and bullet performance that kills. All the other stuff is pretty much window dressing.

It is for this reason that often times when a hunter acquires a big magnum and puts aside his "lesser rifle" that his hunting performance actually goes DOWN rather than up. If the recoil or blast of a rifle detracts from a hunter's ability to place his shots properly...then he is moving in the wrong direction! He needs to step back down to a cartridge that he can handle with precision.

Certainly the firearms industry shamelessly exploits everything they can to keep us buying new rifles. And I can understand this and don't have a problem with it. If all they ever produced were the 223, 243, 30/30s, 270s and 30/06 (even though this is probably all anyone needs for this hemisphere) then we wouldn't have a firearms industry. The industry MUST have new sales of firearms regardless if such arms are good, bad or worthless.

But I don't have a problem with this. Whether a cartridge is good, bad or worthless isn't really the point to most of us. As a group we are all addicted to tinkering and experimenting. We love any and all new cases just so we can mess with it. Neck it up. Neck it down. Change a shoulder angle 3 degrees. Whatever. That's our thing.

None of this troubles me until I encounter shooters who actually BELIEVE the hype and think there is a great plan being worked out here below.

(Other than their plan to sell firearms and our plan to tinker with WHATEVER they come out with.)

The one thing that doesn't change is the animals. They still build deer and antelope and bears just about like they did when Noah chased them off the Arc and told them to scatter and multiply. And it still takes a bullet in the boiler room to put them down.

Velocity is pretty much fluff in the overall scheme of things. Sometimes velocity will simplify a shot for us a bit by reducing lead or holdover a tad. But when the day comes that we can actually launch a bullet at 10,000fps and we actually have a bullet that won't turn to dust on it's way out the barrel...instead travels to the target...then the tissue destruction will likely be unacceptable.

As shocking as it may sound, we may already BE at the maximum point of any value for velocity. That boringly mundane old 180gr bullet traveling a modest 2,800 fps may be as good as it gets! At least for the big game hunter.

[ 12-10-2002, 23:24: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

big bores, good bullets, let lots of air in!!

hunting rifles?
high SD(.300+), 2000-2500 fps
good sd (.225-.300) 2500-2800 fps

varmit guns... aint 9500 fps actual velocity of the powder gas front? I built a 257x300wsm just for fun, long barrel, etc... got bored with it.. but I haven't left my 358 win alone in 10 years

jeffe

Engles man,
Yep, that be the same Ray Atkinson, but just becaues I load them a smidgeon hot makes not me a velocity fan, that is where they happened to shoot best, and 2900 for a 7x57 or 2500 for a 9.3x62 ain't exactly a Nazaronni!

That said, the difference in trajectory of a standard 180 gr. at 2800 and the same at 3200 just isn't much in inches at any range. Hold over is easy, anyone can cope that, wind is another culprit that is hard to handle...

Velocity may be mighty important at the 1000 yd. bench rest workout, but has not much to do in the hunting fields where range judgment is always iffy and bullet performance is ill met..

At up to 400 yards anyway, I can hit as well with a 30-06 as with a 300 Whizbang-jumping-G-hosephat.
I'm not likly to take a shot further than that these days, it caused me too many tracking jobs in my younger days, and I figgured out finally the further I tracked them, the further I had to pack them out...

I also learned a excellent shot never misses at extended ranges, he just wounds them....A lousy shot misses so the lousy shot is the sportsman in the end, he is the hero, he never wounds anything......

Ray - About time you posted on this thread! I was about to think you were too busy having fun hunting or something less honorable.

Great quote you make here: "The farther I gotta track um, the farther I gotta pack um."

Amen to that! One of my earliest hunting experiences was helping pack out a monster buck my partner shot about 6 miles south of NOWHERE.

Before we got that deer out I was ready to shoot my friend.

[ 12-11-2002, 01:14: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

No your all right. There isn't a need to shoot faster bullets, but then again if Barrel metals become better to the point that they with stand the tempuratures from lots of slow burning powder and you can tolerate the recoil is there a reason not to have one?

Personnally I will never agian buy something like my 300 RUM. It is excessive, its very hard on powder and it makes me bleed around my eye sometimes *ouch* I would have much preferred a 300 Dakota but thats a bit pricy.

Nope from now on I plan to stick with the regular magnums like the 7mm rem, or the 300 win or wsm if I have to have something new. I am also very interested in trying a 284 winchester. But right now I kind of feel that bigger is better you can't kill something too dead. And as I saw one poster say here its not like the super magnums cut deer in half.

But I think if you ask just about any Gun trader the young guys like the big guns and the older guys are going back to there 308's, 30-06's, 270's or picking up 25-06's.

And I think as Saeed managed to prove with his 6.5x55 swede was that any cartridge in a modern well put together rifle will shoot extremely well.

Mark

Gentlemen:
I must plead guilty that in my younger days I fell for all of the vel. hype and bought a 300 Wby. shot out the barrel and baught the latest Weatherby in a Mare V shot it for a few years. The in dawned me that I did not need that much velocity. any velocity from 2900 to 3000 fps is enough for any hunting situation. When you get into the larger gores (40 calibers and up) 2400
fps is enough .
George

George H. - Don't feel bad. We've all fallen for that sireen's song at one time or the other.
But with age comes wisdom.