7MM RM was my personal choice for several years, accounting for lots of game. The extra velocity makes for longer PBR, yadda yadda yadda. When it is all said and done, not one game animal I took would have gotten away or died slower if I had been using a 7X57, and I might be able to hear just a smidge better. But, who wants to hunt with a hunnert year old antique furren cawtridge?? Wish I had!!

As I see it, one big selling point for the WSMs and such is always the flatter trajectory thats always associated with a higher velocity. Methinks this is seen as a convienent substitute for practice in this age of fast food and the "time is money so dont hold me up" mentality.

I like to shoot! And I simply love rifles that are pleasant to shoot, especially the ones that do so and still get the job done on game.

I likewise think that users of mild mannered rifles are apt to benefit more from paitent load development including chronograping than the users of barrel burners that are easily exceeding a shooters capabilities from the outset, from a velocity standpoint.

Seems like most cartridges with the designation Magnum end up as a 7mm or better, Why? Because they simply arent needed in smaller calibers.. Im with Dutch, if 3000 fs isnt enough, it otta be!

8mm - Good point. Especially when one considers the fact that probably 95% of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE that man has killed with a shoulder fired weapon has been shot within 100 yds or less. Kinda makes one wonder what's the point, don't it?

Friends,

I'm far less experienced with the latest in guns than 99% of the members here, but here is an article which I really enjoyed despite being technically challenged compared to most of you.

Hope you enjoy it.

http://www.sportingrifles.com/view_from_the_veld.htm

Good shooting.

This is an interesting thread in as much as I have had lots of conversations this year regarding velocity and fpe etc. Given the fact that I am 53 years old I guess I fall into the old fart category but I must confess that I have arrived at the opinion that velocity beyond 3000fps is unnecessary for hunting situations (extreme varmint shooting with small caliber excepted). Adequate bullet construction and weight/caliber along with proper placement seem to me to be far more important than velocity assuming impact velocity in the 2100 to 2600 fps category. In other words I do not believe in using velocity to make up for too small a caliber or too light bullet weight for the intended game. I had the privelege of videoing to 300rums doing their thing in SA this summer and came away singularly unimpressed. I think if I were able to and wanted to shoot game at ranges beyond 300yds consistently I would consider a super mag but ,hell, I can't shoot that well under hunting conditions and quite frankly haven't had the oppurtunity to hunt with anyone who can. One young gent was telling me of his shot at 400 yds that was a hit. I asked about bullet performance and he sheepishly replied that they did not recover the animal....lost the blood trail..go figure. Everything goes to hell with bullets past 400 yds anyway and in all my years of hunting I just have not seen that many long range oppurtunities that could not be improved upon with a little stalking. I think people like Dan Lilja who have the skills and the equipment to shoot at ranges beyond 350 need hyper velocity in order to have the bullet arrive with adquate striking velocity but they always use a caliber and bullet weight suitable to the game.
Because I handload I find a 280 with 150gr scirrocos at 2900 entirely suitable for any deer hunting I do and at whatever ranges I can effectively shoot. My 338 with 250 gr bullets at 2700 takes care of whatever the 280 won't handle at whatever ranges I can effectively shoot. But if some nimrod wants to buy a plastic stocked, 28inch with muzzle brake fluted stainless steel barrel, push feed hyper mag in order to deal with that hypothetical situation of a B&C buck at 475 yds. Have at it. Hell...if you just want one, get it. But save the smoke...at 53 it just ain't comfortable up the old bung. Yeh....I have a bias.

I guess I'm a failure. I've taken several deer with cast bullets in the decrepit old
Swede. 1600 fps,= meat in the pot.
I load my .338 WM about 5 grains under max, just because that's where it's most accurate.
When, oh when, will I ever learn to load these to respectable velocities.

Remember, if you are at a range, and someone raises thier eyebrows over the velocity your chrony reads out. This may not be because they are favorably impressed. More likely, they are thinking they have to watch out for you in the future in case the breech blows out of your rifle.

Good topic.

I have always beleived that velocity was over rated as well. Looking at reloading manuals, I beleive the powder vs power curve is exponential. That is as you progress upwards in power with smaller and smaller increases in velocity, you must dump in increasily heavy doses of powder. Rough example: .30 cals with 180 gr bullets. An 06 should push it at about 2700 fps with somewhere around 60 grains of powder. A .300 Win Mag can push the same bullet at around 3000 fps but usually takes somewhere around 75 grains of powder. This is an 11% increase in velocity, but a 25% increase in powder consumption. Both of these can be done with a 24" barrel although some may advocate a 22" for the 06 and a 26" for the Win Mag. A .30-378 Weatherby Mag should have a 26 or 28" tube and I beleive should get this bullet around 3450 fps but with what, 100 grains or so of powder? This would be a 15% increase in velocity over the Win Mag but with 33% more powder. Overall jump from the 06 would be 750 fps or about 28% but at the expense of 67% more powder. And of course one could calculate the cost of added recoil and accelerated recoil as well as heavier rifle weight and added action length, but I think you get my point.
Most of these differences will be trifle and I ain't holding anybody back from their Ultra Mags. If you are willing to accept the added costs for the added velocity then more pow(d)er to ya.
I do like some velocity though. The standard length belted mags are about as big as I am willing to go for most of the hunting I do. I hunt with a 7mm Rem Mag now but I wouldn't feel handicapped with an 06 or a 270 Win. In any case I like medium to heavy bullet weights. I use a 160 in my 7 Mag and a 150 in the .270. I like the 06 with 165 grainers for most stuff.

Stolen from the #12 Speer manual:

"With 150 grain bullets and IMR 4831 powder, the 270 Weatherby Magnum needs twenty-one percent more powder to post a six percent increase in velocity over the 270 Winchester".

That pretty well sums it up.

ZM

The last hunt of the past season in SA I used a wildcat .22 pushing a 40 gr bullet at 4750 fps. I have never enjoyed a rifle as much as this one. 12 consecutive one shot kills on antelope between 100 and 220 lbs and all but one was shot through the heart/lung cavity. The third day of the hunt, wind was unpleasantly strong and, where the 7mm and 30 cal brigade had to hold off 30 and 40 inches to connect shooting across the wind, the 22 was off less than 20 at the same distances. If the bullet is capable remaining intact at high speeds, speed brings only advantages. Speed does not cause meat damage, bullet fragmentation does. So if cheap bullets are used, yes, speed causes more meat damage because the faster you drive unbonded jacketed lead bullets, the more they come apart.

No problem, Kristofer.

For the above reason, the big cased magnums get a really bad rap for being "inefficient." People need to realize that last 100 fps is the hardest to get and consumes the most energy to produce. With identical "efficiency" the muzzle energy should be directly proportional to the case volume (using case capacity of water will be more accurate than actual powder charge weights) for a given caliber.

Of course, in the real world the big cases aren't quite as efficient (but not nearly as bad as people think). You could show this in the above example by changing the velocities--3450 is a pretty hot 30-378 load while the 300 Win and 30-06 could beat 2700 and 3000 by quite a bit.

What does it all mean in the end? Well, the Weatherby will hit as hard at 400yds as the 30-06 will at the muzzle. It will have much less drop and wind drift at any range.

Personally, I don't think the advantage to big cases is velocity alone. The big advantage I see here is that the Weatherby can shoot bullets in the 200-220 grain range with the same trajectory as a 30-06 shooting 150's with only a fraction of the wind drift and it will hit SO much harder from the muzzle to any distance you want to shoot.

If that's not an advantage somebody wants or needs, fine. But it is an advantage for those that do.

Jon A

It has always puzzled me over the years why all the gun writers try and relate percentage increase in powder used to percentage increase in velocity, rather than energy.

A 270 Win and 270 Wby are interesting. I have had a 270 Wby Mark V, a mate has had a barrel chambered with a Clymer reamer in 270 Wby and my father use to have a 308 Norma necked to 270.

In 26 inch barrels using 4831, the 270 Win usually peaks out at about 3170 f/s with 130 grainers and of course a bit over 60 grains of powder. That is about 2900 ft/lbs.

The 270 Magnums are at about 3450 f/s and around the 73 grains of 4831. So about 3435 ft/lbs.

Energy increase is a bit over 18% and powder increase is about 21%.

Of course we could shuffle these numbers arond in favour of the 270 Win by going to 4350 or even Varget. But we can also play the same trick with the 270 Magnum. We could for example switch to 4350 in the 270 Magnum and 7828 in the 270 Winchester

Mike

[ 12-12-2002, 04:11: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Well I gotta admit that the Monolithics have changed the face of terminal balistics to a great extent, and I must attune my thinking somewhat as I keep forgeting that they exist..I just don't think along those lines but when it is called to my attention, I will admit back peddle......

I have had some very bad experiences with BarnesX and quite a few to be exact and it turned me off...But GS Custom bullets have not failed me and the more I use them the better I like them and it has changed my attitude towards monolithic bullets. They and bullets like the North Fork may just be the future of bullets...

Now, don't take that as a sign of weakness, I still love the look and performance of those beautiful long R.N. Woodleighs....

It's this nostalgia thing that consumes my inner self. Now was that poetic or not?

Jon and Mike,

Do either of you agree that there is a point of deminishing returns for increased amounts of powder jammed behind any given bullet?

To go to the extreme; a 270/50BMG, would take a great deal of powder just to get up and running with the 270Weatherby. How much faster could it go? OR how much energy would you get out verses what you put in. (forgetting in this instant action size, weight, and recoil)

Kristofer

Kristofer,

A 30/378 definitely shows a fall off as compared to 30/06. If we give a 30/378 3450 with 180s anda 30/06 2850 with 180s then the 30/378 increases energy by about 47% but powder is increased from 60 grains to around 110 grains...a 83%.

Of course if we increased barrel lenght of both then things would start to change.

But at the end of the day and if all else is equal, the bigger case will get less energy to the bullet in realtion to the amount of powder consumed and all because of expansion ratio.

The bigger the expansion ration the more the gas gets to expand and therefore the more work it can do. Think compression ratio of an engine. A 12 to 1 allows the gas to expand twice as much as a 6 to 1 engine.

That is why a 338 Win develops more energy than a 264 Win. But if you made the barrel of the 264 enough longer than the 338 so that the internal volume of both the 264 and 338 barrels was the same, then if we ignored friction, the 264 would develop the same energy as the 338.

Mike

You know I am learning about Marginal returns and efficiency in economics. I think the theories might apply to this type of topic too.

Unfortunately I am failing economics. Well not yet but the out come looks poor.

Just because a bullet is going faster does not mean that pressures are any higher does it? I am not certain of this but I thought that I read something along those lines. I mean pressure signs apear at the same CUP's roughly in each different case as the loads begin to max out and get to near the design tolerances of the case and action/chamber. Don't they? If I'm wrong by all means educate me. But I don't see how me shooting a max loaded 30-06 is any less dangerous than me shooting a 300 rum that isn't even reaching the book max's and shows no sign of pressure what so ever.

Personally, I've never been one to chase hyper velocity except for my varmint rifles. I don't own a chronograph and really don't have a real hankering for one.
My .338 Win Mag with 225's was working just fine on Elk and African plains game long before I found out it was only pushing about 2650 fps over a friends chrono, and I'm still not disappointed in it. My Stainless synthetic .338 has about 4" more barrel, so it is probably singing along a little faster, but I've never loaded with that in mind. Accuracy has always been my objective, and when a load reaches that point I just happily put them in the box and load a whole bunch more just like them.

However, I really don't have a problem with extra velocity if someone feels better using it and can handle the extra payment in recoil tolerance it requires. With the new bullets available, like GS's bullets, the Barnes, Northfork, and many others, there is no reason not to use the velocity and accuracy that some of the new rifles and cartridges offer. Several people I know own the new .300 RUM, .338 RUM, and other "hypervelocity medium bores" and handle them very well. However, at least an equal number don't and won't admit it to themselves or others. Just can't overcome their own fragile ego, I guess. Anyone else ever seen the ads in the gun classified- ".338 RUM for sale, like new, only shot 3 times".
In the right hands and loaded with proper projectiles, just about any rifle/cartridge is an efficient killing machine. Extra velocity in itself doesn't make a rifle/cartridge a bad thing- as usual, it is the nut behind the butt that makes that distinction. - Sheister

Pecos45
I'm with you, heart and soul! I have never bought into the Magnum theory. They don't impress me in anyway. For me as a Handloader I'm of the old school- and all my loads are below maximum level even for my 454 Casull( This was bought mainly to work-up more efficient 45 LC loads in a stronger gun- lord knows most of the factory stuff is weak)!! My goal is to find the balance of power/accuracy/ efficient load for each of the firearms I own nothing more nothing less. If the load I use is set up this way it gives the altimate joy when used in the field to take what ever game I'm after.

Markus - You are correct that velocity does not necessarily relate equally with pressure. The pressure achieved in any load depends on the cartridge/powder/bullet used. Thus a 300 Weatherby for example can exceed /06 velocities with equal or even less chamber pressure.

Where the diminishing returns comes in is the powder used to ACHIEVE any increase. If you put 60 grains of say 4831 in an /06 with a 165 gr bullet and the same 60 grains of 4831 in a 300 Weatherby with the same bullet.....you would get LESS velocity from the Weatherby. (And less pressure) Point being whatever you do with the larger magnum case, it is going to take MORE powder to equal or exceed anything a more efficient cartridge can produce.

Now go hit your economics books and pass that course! You can do it.

How would that change in pressure equate in terms of felt recoil?

Thanks Pecos45 and KBGuns, Thats what I thought. I didn't see how shooting bullets fast made my breech any more likely to blow up in my face, provided you don't start to challenge the laws of physics with chamber pressures.

As for Felt recoil I think( But by no means am I an expert) It directly relates to the mass of the bullet you are pushing as well as the volume of expanding gas rushing out of the end of the muzzle. The bigger the case you use the more powder you can fit in it and therefore you have a harder recoil regardless of whether or not you are using a heavier bullet. Because it takes more Volume of gas to propel the bullet.

Find what you like and wear it out! Or try to.
I.M.H.O., fast or slow, if you don't shoot it 750-1,000 rounds a year you probably shouldn't be shooting over 150 yds. anyway. (insert flames here)
All crap aside faster, flatter is probably better for folks that can't or won't shoot a lot.

UNLESS, you get up over 20ft.lbs of recoil,where you can learn all kinds of bad habits, real quick.
I quess my screen name says it, 190grn. at 2,600fps. +/-, does the trick for me. Hell, the 30/30 works fine on 'yotes and ground hogs out to 300yds., if you'll practice enough to know where to hold.

[ 12-17-2002, 01:39: Message edited by: TERRY8mm ]