As wolf numbers increase,game populations will decrease and human,livestock conflicts will increase. Wolves aren't a mystery and there is plenty of documentation,of what they do when big game numbers go down. They prey on livestock. In the 1990's,there were numerous attacks in INDIA involving wolves on humans. The result of no wild prey and over population of both wolves and people. I highly doubt the problem will occur in america.

As for lions and how they kill. It depends on the lion. I've run several lions with hounds,that had made two kills a night on whitetails. They ate very little of the animals. The majority of the time,a lion will kill and gorge themselves once a week and supplement their diet with what they can find. The lions that kill multiple times during a night,were on private ranches with large populations of deer. The deer were so easy to kill,that the lions couldn't resist. One owner had exotic birds and turkeys. One lion went in and killed dozens of turkeys,and all the peacocks that the guy had,over the course of a couple days.It was clearly followed in the snow.

The wolf program in america,is nothing but an effort to do away with hunting or drastically limit its need as a population management tool. If the feds can keep people from managing wolves long enough. The wolf population will be so far out of control,that management will do little to wolf numbers.

It would be next to impossible to get a certfied case of a human killed by a wolf in the US. I am sure it has happened in the past,and if you look into newspaper records dating back to the 1800's,you would probably find something.

If you look back at mountain lions in the past. You would be hard pressed to find documented attacks on humans. Yet with protection and overpopulation of lions in the US. You now have confirmed attacks.

As for a Black panther. Who knows. A houndsman in arizona treed a Jaguar a few years ago and the pictures are available.

At the very least, a good cougar, wolf, and/or coyote is one that FEARS humans.

How to teach that fear is easy - gunfire! I intend to do my level best to educate every one of said creatures that I see.

Seafire, where did you get those percentage figures from????
Eighty percent? You're talking about seldom seeing a deer.

I truly think we are getting to the point where we have to start saying that humans are getting up to unreasonable levels!!! We are using all of the natural resources, and crowding out all of the animals. No wonder some people have to wait 17 years to draw a sheep tag. Its because we have decimated the animal populations and because too many people want to hunt too few animals. Its supply and demand, and when the supply goes down and the demand goes up the prices go up, which is what is happeneing with all hunting.

Blue

Hi. Anyone from Minnesota? Back here in Finland there is a inflamed discussion about wolves that are increasing rapidly. I found the Minnesota Wolf managing plan on the internet and I�m interested to know about wolves and hunting in Minnesota; the state is somewhat the same size as Finland and about as densly populated. How is the plan working? Any info would be appreciated.

Boha

Being next door to MN in Wis. There wolf plan is working out like ours a large increase in wolfs and no plan to manage them.

The greenies and envro wakos like it a lot. The hunters and farmers don't. They would get a lot more surport for the buggers if they had a decent hunting and trapping plan to go along with the wolf increase. As of now there is no sport hunting or trapping of wolfs in the lower 48. The only ones that are legaly killed are done by government hunters and trappers.

You basicly have to catch wolfs in the act of killing live stock for them to take action. They don't want to belive you if you tell the feds that I saw a wolf kill my livestock they want tracks pictures ect. Even then they well do every thing with in there power to blame it on something else.

We just had a logger backed up by a pack of wolfs on a logging job. He got off his skidder to do some work and they came at him. He made it to the skidder and got away.

With the greenies and envro wakos making lots of noise I don't konw if we well ever haave a good wolf plan in the states.

Boha,

I am not residing in Oregon. However I spent 15 yrs in Minnesota and my ex wife was from Chisholm MN which is not far from Ely where the have the Wolf program based.

There are wolves in Northern Minnesota. Coyotes are by far a bigger problem. However, deer hunting in the areas that the wolves are released, whitetail deer, instead of just laying down when pushed and letting a human walk by, instead in areas with wolves, they hear a twig snap, they are taking off at a dead run in the opposite direction.

Wolves are protected by Federal Law, that means no State level can permit hunting, unless approved by the federal govt.
However, my father in law was a State Trooper ( Police) and a lot of DNR ( Dept of Natural Resource) guys would be out looking for licenses and violations during hunting season.

Knowing my father in law, they would always stop and talk. I asked several of them about what to do if I saw a wolf. There response, was to ask them to look in the opposite direction, before I shot it so they could attest that they didn't see a thing. They had no love for them either.

Like the cougars being protected in the Western USA, in Oregon where I live now, I would wager that the deer population is down over 75 to 80 % from what it was when I moved here in 1995. Fish & Wildlife blame it on disease etc.
Any fool can figure it is the cougars.

One cougar will need to kill a deer a day, to live on. That is 350 or more deer a year. IN 4 counties in SW Oregon, the State estimates the population of cougars to be well over a 1,000. So that is at least 350,000 deer a year just to feed these things.

The real world is a far cry from Walt Disney. The lion kings are killing all the bambis on a daily basis. But as with government any where, and Tree Huggers and Environmentalist anywhere, their concept of reality is what they get from a magazine, published by one of there own types.

The best wolf is a dead one, the best cougar is a dead one.

Just the way I see it
cheers and good shooting
seafire

Well, even though I now live in the twin cities, I used to live on the edge of the wolf range, have seen two wolves in the wild, and have seen many of their tracks in the winter.



They are unbelivable travelers and can cover a lot of ground. And they are very efficient hunters.



I kind of disagree with what the others have said. Granted, I don't own any livestock or anything like that, but to me, the best wolf is a live wolf walking around in the woods doing what wolves do. One of the most beautiful and most haunting sounds you can hear is that of a wolf, late at night, with that low wooooooooooooooooooo, and if you are close to a lake with a few loons on it, and the moon is out, and you hear wolves and coyotes yipping and loons looning it doesn't get any better (except maybe being on the top of a mountain looking at wild sheep).



Every time I start to hear that there are too many of a certain animal, the first thing I think of is that in reality there are too many people there instead!!!!



Blue

I too will disagree with the notion that only a dead wolf or cougar is a good one. I find top level predators fascinating animals. What I don't agree with is allowing their populations to go unmanaged. There is a balance involved that is best attained by managing predators as game animals.

Jeff

I grew up hunting in Minnesota - the Ely area with wolves and all. Spent uncountable hours in the deep timber alone as a little kid. Never had a threatening problem from a wolf. Not once. But we had wolves kill deer out front, out back and all over. I think Mr. Logger probably has a good imagination and a personal agenda against wolves.

Back in the 70s there were far fewer wolves and far fewer deer than there are today, with record deer populations and a much much larger wolf population. Guess they must be vegetarian wolves today huh?

I hope they keep growing and expanding. Won't be long before we have them down here. And the sooner, the better.

Brent

Thanks for your replies. it seems the problem is ever present worldwide today. Our problem is quite similar albeit the wolf population isn�t on the same level, but then we get more of them from russia, as I believe you do from Canada.
The wolf management plan felt alright when I read it, but the fact remains that all the greenies will continue to question all depredation and legal hunting regardless of plans. My own remedy is simple; annual hunting 20-25 % of the population. This keeps the hunters and farmers happy, and the wolf population will not suffer - according to the plan the population increases regardless of killing 28 - 53 % of the population.

Boha

Seafire, cougars don't eat one deer per day, it's more like one per week .Some states have introduced cougars to control excess deer populations. We have no wolves in NY but many coyotes.These will hunt alone for small game but hunt in packs for deer. Scientific studies, untainted by emotion, and sound management are the only way to control animal populations.

QUOTE:
"One cougar will need to kill a deer a day, to live on. That is 350 or more deer a year. IN 4 counties in SW Oregon, the State estimates the population of cougars to be well over a 1,000. So that is at least 350,000 deer a year just to feed these things."

Well according to your state web site the numbers listed there for Deer + Elk= won't feed all them Cougars

"them must be some awful thin Cougars"

but if you include the game farms well you may be able to feed um!

If you really want to write about something research it first-

MAN WAS PLACED HERE TO LOOK OVER THE ANIMALS NOT KILL THEM OUT!!

You do your cause no good by not even getting your wild exagerations straight. More like one deer per week. And I would like one, just one, piece of evidence that a wolf has ever killed a single human in the U.S., ever. And I wonder how the Native Americans ever made it with all those wolves, bears, alligators, and cougars eating everything on the continent? I wonder how Africa has gotten along so well with lions, hyenas, leopards, cheetahs, wild dogs, etc. Unless a predator has an alternate source of prey, the predator population is dependent on the prey population. The problems usually stems from humans not predators.

Do predators sometimes cause problems? Yes, but I don't think you can turn a bunch of idiot sheep loose on the range without a shephard and/or a good sheep dog and expect them to do well. Sheep are stupid creatures and Angus cattle don't rank much higher on the old IQ scale.

BTW, I hunt for pleasure, and cut down trees for a living so don't lump me in with "Tree Hugger's" et al. But I do know a little bit about wildlife and ecosystem management.

Years ago there was a guy from Gillette, Wy. that put together the facts on wolves vs. people that the animal rights maggots don't want you to know. The only way they will agree of a verified attack is if one of their own gets eaten.

There was a guy attacked in North Dakota a couple of years ago that luckily came off his horse with his rifle and G&F investigated and cleared him for killing the wolf.

Hell, there are many accounts of wolves attacking people around Ft. Mandan during Custer's day.

Redlander

Here's a confirmed wolf attack for ya . No , the wolf wasn't successful as the attackee had a rifle..........


http://www.rangemagazine.com/archive/stories/winter02/wolf.htm

Mete,

I don't know where your info is from, but it is a lot more than one deer a WEEK. East Coast folks don't seem to get a real honest story with cougars.

Once a cougar has killed something, it eats it fill. Unlike a bear or a lot of other predators such as coyotes or wolves, it will not return and eat on the same carcass the next day. It will do another fresh kill.

When I first moved here, one night a cougar got into a field that actually bordered Interstate 5, several miles north of city of 60,000 people. IN the 10 acre field were 60 sheep. A cougar MAULED ALL 60 sheep that night. None were eaten, they were just mauled. All had to be put down.

Too many people around here loose, sheep, goats, even Llamas to cougars. I have seen where they have attacked horses also. This happens very very close to residental areas.

I know of one lady who had a cougar that came into her yard at 3 in the afternoon to get into her chicken coup, while the children ( all under 5) were playing in the sand box. Her Rottweiler was in the house and caught a whiff of the cougar and went straight thru the screen door and attacked the cougar. It was a healthy 5 yr old male cougar that weighed 120 lbs. This woman had ran to get her husband's shotgun and was expecting the dog to be dead, and the only thing on her mind was to save her children from it. Her property sits right on US 199, a major thorough fair.

With things like this, it is a little hard to listen to people who don't live around problems like this, yet live 3,000 miles away on the east coast, or down in LosAngeles and San Francisco and tell us how misunderstood cougars are, and how we need to protect them.

What we need to do is protect communities from the threats of cougars. Skip the wildlife they kill, and look at the threat to domestic pets or farm animals.

MY dislike for their existance is not from prejudice, it is based on what I have seen or heard. Last year 16 sheep and 4 deer were killed by one cougar in less than 2 weeks one mile from my son's elementary school. We have HUGE bear populations where I live also, but you don't have problems like this with bears. YOU can't guess how many kids were just terrified with the thought that this animal may end up showing up when they are walking home from school etc. Being surrounded by tons of mountains and forests, they have plenty of habitate, but they are overpopulating their range and are coming into areas inhabited by people.

I'd like to see how popular A Cougar is when It starts doing things like this where people live who just think that it is in our minds here. Makes about as much sense as me being 3000 miles from NYCity and saying, you guys don't have any crime in NYC! I know because I don't see it on the TV shows I see about NY.

The Best Cougar is a dead one. Or we could round them up and turn them loose on the east coast, and let you guys see how 'tame' and unintrusive, and "magestic" they are!

Beeman,

I just have to refer your question to some of the other people who live in this area. Maybe Rogue 6 can answer it.

The deer population is so far down here, YOU would not believe it. I use to see them in my yard all the time, wandering thru. Not anymore.

And of course the City/Liberal ( Portland, Salem, Eugene, have over 50% of the entire states population , and are full of California transplants )ran Fish and Wildlife, is trying to convince everyone it is just disease and any other excuse they can think of.

Some one else can verify this and then it will have more credence than just being my opinion.

seafire

Maybe you know about Texas Redlander, but Texas is not Oregon.

I am not going to sit here in Oregon and lecture you on Texas, because I don't have a point of reference. I have been to Texas many times but don't live there.

Wolves run in packs. There have not been any causalties of wolves that I know about in the USA, you are right. However, I have also spent a fair amount of time in Canada. When I was in Northern Manitoba ( Flin Flon) visiting Family one summer, north of town several men coming out of the Bush that had been fishing were attacked by a pack of wolves.

ONE got to his truck and got his shotgun, and fired at the wolves. Two guys were critically injured in the attack, and two other bodies were never found. A guy with the Manitoba Dept of Natural Resources told me that it is not uncommon for a person to get lost out in the bush, especially snowmobiling or hunting. If they don't turn up, when they are supposed to the authorities will look for them for 3 days. Beyond that point most of the time they figure that the person has died and his body has either been eaten by wolves or a bear. This was in 1984 if that is important.

People need to get an orientation to mother nature, instead of off of Wild Kingdom. Hopefully some of the Alaskan guys on the site will have a prospective to add.

I am just relaying what I have come across. I think both wolves and cougars are Noble looking animals. But their instinct is to kill to survive. What do people think they eat, bugs??and small birds,and that is it??

And if a cougar kills one deer a week, what does he eat the rest of the week, Berries? chipmonks? I don't think so.

J.D.

An older gentleman in his late 60's is the Church contact for the Cub Scout group that my son belongs to, and I am active in. He grew up in South Dakota. His father had a large piece of property in Western So. Dakota.

Not two weeks ago, we were talking over coffee about the cougar problems we have locally. He is not a hunter, but told me that when he was growing up, his dad always carried a rifle with him wherever he went on their ranch. The reason was, because of the amount of wolves that ran loose in South Dakota in those days. Coyotes were not a problem, it was wolves.

They not only attacked live stock, by Larry was also saying that his dad had killed more than one, that had attacked him as part of a pack.

I think we should re introduce wolves. Especially in areas where everyone thinks they are such a noble creature. Maybe a little idiology will be replaced by a little reality and common sense.

If your state Fish & Wildlife Dept or your state's Dept of Natural Resources posts accurate information on their web site count your blessings.

I can go to our capital and talk to people there and get the same figures. Then you go and talk to some of the field people, like the local Biologist for the Fish & Wildlife , that I had the pleasure to talk to, his take on what comes out of Salem, is politically orientated. He sees a total different picture than what is posted.

He indicated that telling the Capital what it wants to hear, means job security. Sound like any other states and the way they run their government?

As citizens we also tell the politicians in Salem we pay more than enough in Taxes, but that is not how they see that subject either.

It was the state wildlife biologist that told me the estimation of the number of cougars in the four SW counties here. He also indicated that the local findings differ from what is listed by the F& W in Salem, even tho the local office provided them with the estimations they found.

Salem indicated a much lower number of cougars. NO one need to take my word for it, we need to have a few more guys who are from this area on this forum pipe in.

I am not attempting to get into arguments with anyone on this subject. If you want to know what is going on in Iraq, with the fighting over there, do you ask the US govt, do you ask the media, or do you ask the guys who are over there fighting the war?

Last elk season, I saw a wolf feeding on the gut pile of an elk.
It was out in the middle of nowhere, and it was causing no problems. It saw me and it took off. I did not shoot at it, or anything else. We have a lot of people around here who have tame wolves as pets, or have dogs that are cross bred with wolves. I am not in favor of killing them as they are fed, and don't have to fend for themselves in the wild.

Coyotes do fend for themselves, and in southern California, the Fish & Wildlife Dept Biologists down there, put out a report a friend showed me, that of all the coyotes that are killed and the remains are autopsied, they figure that 75 to 80 % of those animals diets, are domestic pets. So if your poodle or kitty cat was eaten by a coyote, what is your opinion on what they should do about coyotes? Alot of missing domestic pets here in my neighborhood probably end up as coyote fecee also.

Nice to have a discussion, isn�t it?
I do not believe that we achieve anything more than escalated conflict if we allow ourselves to make an issue of the existence of these predators. Instead we should make a point of the fact that we are the top predators. The benefits of hunting is not what need to be explained, instead we must discuss and explain the relevance of hunting - after all hunting is the core of nature, for everyone.
The goal of course must be that wolves, and all the other predators must be hunted sustainably and according to local needs and regulations, along with every other huntable species. This goal should be brought to a level of simple truth. Our problem, as hunters and rural people, isn�t our own conception of right and wrong (it will more than often be correct), but the opinions of people in urban areas, seeking meeningful existence in their anguish by demanding the right to recreation, virtually or in real life. Wildlife is not something we - or they - own at our leisure. We must treasure it by being a part of it, as predators aswell, not as spectators. That is why we are right and they are wrong by constantly attacking us. We have the truth; they just suggest. And what counts even more - we have confidence.
I borrow Edv.Abbey: "So go out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains, and bag the peaks.... and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over your enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box... I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards."

Boha

Seafire and Redlander: I grew up in Texas, and Cougars were supposedly non-existant there except in the Davis Mts. area. People tend to believe what they're told by the media. I used to see at least one or more Cougar quite often between Comanche and Gustine which is in the Hill Country. My Mom saw one several times as well; she saw it in her headlights and called it a Black Panther. I saw them several times during daylight, and they weren't black, probably just appear that way in the headlights.

I lived in Wyoming near Casper in the 70's and 80's and never saw a wolf, but ocasionally saw a Cougar when I was elk hunting. Now in some areas, there's more Cougars than deer and elk. I snow mobile frequently in Wyoming in the winter and a few years ago, Cougars completely massacred a herd of muleys. They were caught in a canyon by a blizzard, and not a one made it out. I don't know if it was one Cougar or several, but if it was one, he killed more than one a day.

All predators but man MUST DIE! We are the dominant species, the other predators are just losers, it is far past time that they were extinct. That way we can increase the size of our industrial feed lots without fear of predation loses.

Also, the elk and deer populations will increase for all of us hunters and for those cars that like to hunt too!

ASS_CLOWN

Welcome back Mortie

Yes, mountain lions do cache meat. Usually under a pile of debris. Not much different than a leopard cache an impala in a tree.

Some specific animals do cause problems - seem like a good time to sell a hunting permit. I just really don't think the answer is to wipe them off the face of the earth. And people that move into wild country should expect to have bad encounters. If they don't, they could move to downtown L.A. or Houston, no cougars or bears - but then they can really learn what psycho predators are.

And, just to beat a dead sheep (look poetry), "A cougar MAULED ALL 60 sheep that night", where was the guy's sheep dog such as a Great Pyrenees ?