I am looking for a new elk rifle. I have a 270, but that is not enough. I found out the hard way, losing an elk. Also have a 30-06 that was my Dad's.....will retire it to one of my kids later on.

I have been looking at a Browning semi auto in a 338, salesman said the recoil would not be bad at all. I also been looking at a model 70 bolt action Winchester, 300 Ultra mag. I need a rifle that will put the big bulls down within say 400 yards. What is more important, the smacking power or the caliber? Now what are the suggestions of those that really do a lot of elk hunting please.....

Before you go looking for a Bandaid,I'd concentrate on shooting well. Especially if you think 400yds is "doable".

The 270 with good bullets,has the snort. You just need to poke them,where they need to go. No offense intended,but it starts with the guy pulling the trigger.............

The placement of the bullet is a lot more important than the size! That 270 will kill lots of elk, it has for about 75 years, but you must watch where you shoot them. If you insist on shooting at their rear ends or other bad angle shots, a good 338 or 375 makes a lot better choice.
Inside of 400yds leaves a lot of country and terrain to consider, but any good 300 or 338 magnum will make a first class elk rifle in the hands of a capable marksman.

Big Stick is right about this.

Long ago Les Bowman (late Rockies outfitter and gun writer) determined that the best shooting was done with cartridges that did not kick too hard. He found that the worst shooting was done with .300 mags and he settled on the 7mm Rem Mag and was instrumental in it's development.

You need to practice and don't take any more hard shots. Never mind 400 yards. For more power Hornady makes a light magnum load for your .270.

Practice.

T/Jazz Welcome to A.R.
Any of the guns you spoke of will kill elk at the right given ranges for that carterige.
The real piont is bullet placment. That said I will tell you I killed elk for years with my .308 win.
I now use a .338 win. I love it! I did a lot of reading and talking to other elk hunters before I bought mine. I felt at the time, eight years ago it was the best gun in a gun that over the counter bullets were every where for. ( you never know when you may loose your stuff on the raod, and end up at the mercy of a road side shop for bullets)I settled on the .338 I keep my shots under 350yds max. It will kill farther out with out trouble, but I don't like taking undue chanced with game animals. I respect them to much.
JMHO X-Ring

First off thanks for the reply guys! I guess I should clear up one thing right off Ok, I am no rookie to shooting a 270 or 06 and hitting my mark. Now I lost an elk not because the shot was piss poor or not in the vital area and I don't shoot animals in the A$$ thank you. It was in fact the first elk I have ever lost, so I am trying hard to make it my last. It is not a good feeling going back to camp afterwards I'll tell you that much. It is not the same as losing a coyote at the age of 12 shooting a 22mag.

The guide I was with last year, stated that it was a good hit, so what went wrong? Did the bullet not do its job.....hell I don't know do I. I don't normally shoot at anything beyond 300 yards, but why not have a little something extra if needed. It is my choice to change correct.

So today I looked at the 300 calibers and 338 calibers in Remington, Winchester, Ruger and Weatherby's. I shall look at the Sako's and some others next week. Thanks for your replies.......but I am still searching.

If you need to "put down big bulls at 400 yds" then you need a minimum of 300 mag type equipment. Personally I prefer to save myself the punishment and get closer. Just my .02c

I knew no matter how I offered it,she'd be received wrong.

Your best bet,is to compliment good placement,with a good bullet(in my opinion). That being said,a 270 with good bullets,is no slouch. Out of curiousity,what bullet did you hit your Elk with,out of your 270?

Were you to want more,it is certainly available,but a BAR in 338 isn't my answer to the long range querry.

I too think the 7mmRem is an excellent cartridge. It is pretty easy to shoot well and offers nice performance capabilities. Many good bullets available and recoil is manageable,for most.

If it were me(and it isn't)I'd be intent on shooting the wheels off your existing rifle,rather than looking for a cure-all.

Again,no offense intended. But most everything can be attributed to the Indian,not the arrow. Your existing rifles have the mustard,if you can extract it.

Your mileage may vary.........

I now use the 300 ultra mag for elk hunting and am very pleased with it but the 7mm rem mag served well for me in the past with a lot less recoil.

If you want to go with a 338win mag by all means go for it. Load and shoot the 210 Partition or 210 Barnes and don't look back. If you can learn to shoot the 338win Mag proficently you will have a premier elk rifle. The 270win is great if you choose your bullets wisely and are willing to pass on quartering shots at the longer ranges(300yds+). I have seen the 270win in action on long range elk and was not impressed by it. That is all I'm going to post on this most controversial subject.(been to busy lately)sure-shot

Big Stick that elk was at 264 paces according to the guide. It was coming down out of the tree line ahead and somewhat above of us into a clearing quartering away from me. Another hunting client, who had a range finder side the distance was 281 yards.
The bullet I used was a 150 weight Nosler Partition. The rife was dead on at 300 yards. The guide stated that the bullet could have hit a rib bone and glided off its direction...maybe so I don't know.

Hey!I never said that the Bar 338 was the rifle to buy, it is what the salesman suggested at the time. Now why wouldn't it be a good idea? Are you saying they are not accurate enough? Confusing I guess.

The older BAR's are nice enough. However,my thoughts are,when concerned with long distance killing,your FIRST thought ought to be toward a rifle that is long distance accurate. No such thing as too accurate.

The bolt gun wins there,though I've shot some nicely accurate BAR's in 300Winny(they can't run with a bolt).

I'm not a Partition man,though many love them. Pretty spotty performance,in my experience. But at the impact velocity imparted,at the Elk in question,they should have made the grade(easily). I assure you it never glanced off a rib and went to never-never land.

I prefer a simplistic approach and there is damn little a good man,with a good rifle,can not do with good bullets. You can't purchase practice,despite what the salesman tells you.

My observation is that folks are quick to jump through hoops,in order to purchase a "bigger" rifle. But their trouble isn't the cartridge they are shooting,rather their abilities with it. That is not a condemnation,just an observation.

Very few practice enough,to become very good with a rifle. The guys that do,needn't ask questions about "what works". Largely,because with practice,great field results become mundane. I'm not saying more rifle isn't useful. Just stipulating that before you spend money on that,instead of on practice ammo,you should take a hard look at the reality of the scheme of things. Where is the weakest link?

If you can't shoot the shit out of your existing 270,I assure you,that you'll do worse with most of the other increased performance cartridges you mention. That is not a personal attack,but constructive criticism.

A good man with a 270,is a better Elk killer,than a poor shooting man with a 300Ultra.

To eek results,practice is paramount...........

While my username states my own preferences in caliber, I personlly know to many hunters that use 270 and are successfull to believe more gun than 270 is needed. In fact I know one gentleman that only used a 25-06 and wouldn't go larger for anything, and he is a very successfull hunter, almost all one shot kills/drops (pre-Barnes). With bigger calibers and cases come more recoil and blast, which a lot of shooters have trouble with. Whatever you hunt with in the end, put enough rounds though it to accuratly place your shots at your normal hunting ranges, if that means spending time shooting vermin, so be it. Use your normal load, so the ballistics are second nature to you. Maybe you already do this. Murphy occasionly pops his head up, no matter what you do. Hope I didn't come off as to much of a smartass.

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Good Shooting!

[This message has been edited by 8MM OR MORE (edited 02-24-2002).]

In Oconnor's day, with elk that had little commerce with man, and a guide tooting the thing right into your lap, the .270 would do the job. I think todays elk hunting is a whole different ball game. So why screw around with a marginal cartridge. Get a .300wm or a .338wm. If you are an experienced 30-06 shooter, it won't take much practice to acclimate to the .338. Using a 250gr grand slam. Perhaps speed kills but nothing, absolutely nothing takes the place of a big piece of metal sent downrange 2600-2800fps.

A point to remember, is that sometimes stuff goes wrong---without regard to skill, caliber, bullet construction, or even range. If you hunt long enough, it WILL HAPPEN to all of us.

How do the lungs function in a animal? Do they always fill the chest cavity or not? What happens when we breath out?

This has come up before where a deer was shot high in the ribs and there was little sign and it ran off. Was the chest cavity hit but the lungs missed because the animal was about to inflate it's lungs when the bullet hit? Is there a doctor in the house?

I think Atkinson chimmed in and said this happens.

I'd go with the 338WM in a bolt action. I like the 338 over the 300 mags...bigger bullet that shoots plenty fast. With the 338 bullet selection isn't as critical since the velocities are kept a bit more reasonable. This would allow better bullet selection to find the one that shoots the best...a 225 or 250 grain standard bullet will hold together and that is plenty of punch for elk. With a 300 Ultra I believe that ONLY premium bullets should be used...more expensive and generally less accurate. You won't regret a 338WM.

Big Stick thanks for the constructive criticism! Need not discuss my marksmenship here for fear all hell would brake lose hey.

Now getting back to the BAR rifle, I just came from the range and a fellow had a 300 win mag in a Bar, shooting it at 200 and 300 yards. Now hitting 6 inch bulls eye at that range should be accurate enough in my book.

Last night I read a piece by Gen. Boddington, who stated that the 7mm mag is to light for elk. Ummmm OK, guess I won't ask about the 270 then and this guy is an expert they tell me. So it's back to drawing board. I am looking real hard at the 338 using a 210 weight bullet as was suggested by some others here......thanks guys.

I just need to get my hands on one to shoot is all, shouldn't be a problem at the range next weekend. Until then I will cruise the gunshops looking at brands of rifles this week.

I love this subject!!! I personally think the .270 is a deer rifle that can be used for Elk. That DOES NOT make it an Elk rifle!
I know all the stories about shooting big stuff with little guns and will never argue that bullet placement is the key to every success. However I've seen enough Elk wounding done with a .270, and have seen many multiple shot kills on Elk with a .270 that I have a strong opinion. I switched to a .338 Win Mag from an '06 and am impressed with it's performance.
T/Jazz has said he's a good shot with experience and this is a first loss. So why hound on practicing and using the same rifle? How many guns do we all have? Why do we need so many if one rifle is perfect for everything?
Little bullets on big animals don't let out the warm blood fast enough to make room for the cold air that makes them taste so good.
I personally witnessed a scar on an Elk heart that coresponded to a complete pass through. Yes that's what I said. We found scar tissue all the way through from one side to the other INCLUDING the heart. Any animal deserves the respect of using a rifle that will do enough damage to make a clean one shot kill EVERY time. I have as much faith in a .243 as I do in a .270.
I know this is going to be hotly debated but look at what serious Elk hunters carry and recommend. Be watchful for armchair types that spend to much time offering their vast knowledge about what they heard or read somewhere!

Shoot as many different "bigger" rifles,that you can lay your hands upon. The one that you feel most comfortable with,is the direction to go.

No matter where you might read it,the facts remain the same. Good bullets,in a good spot,will always do a good job.

Bigger is "better",only if you can use it well. That is my point...............

I think the Browning Auto in .338 would make a great elk rifle. They are often quite accurate and would offer real advantages in the elk jungles. Go for it!

Oh man you spoke Boddingtons name. Now watch what happens He is the fodder of more trash talk on this sight.
I haven't shot a BAR in .338, but have shot them in 300win mag., and 30=06. I think Nick is right it would make a fine elk rifle in .338. That is my elk cal. mine is a M77 tang safty. great elk combo.
X-Ring

I wouldnt buy a BAR, unless you hunted property where you mostly "set" and waited for everyone else to push the Elk to you. Thats a heavy rifle to be schlepping over hill and under dale , and theres no reason to when theres a better tool to do the job.

And Im not Badmouthing BARs, they are nice rifles, just to heavy.

The .270 is a great caliber but I think you want a 300 mag, or .338. I mean why mess around ? True bullet placement is everything but a 225 or 250 grn A-frame is "clobber city"!

Frankly I have no plans to hunt ANY big game animal with anything under my .338 anymore. Not that the lesser calibers arent great , they are. Its just that the .338Win is so versatile, so many bullets are available for it, and its so easy to shoot!

Buy a 300 mag, or even better a .338, and never look back..........and welcome to the forumn.............10

T/Jazz, here's my two cents. An elk hit in the lungs will go a while. Those big boys just don't fall over. One of the guys on the farm hit a spike with his 25/06 four times through the lungs, and it stood, looked around, grazed, and fell over.

I hit one this year, just a little low, that went over a mile. That was with a 7 mag that shot clear through. I don't think a bigger hole would have made the difference. In some parts of the lungs, shots just don't have an immediate suffocating result.

Second, bigger caliber doesn't always matter. I through a moose (yes, in the lungs) with a 35Whelen, and that S.O.B. went over 500 yards. That was fun .

What I am trying to say is that when shooting at elk, the follow-up is absolutely critical. You have to be prepared to follow that sucker a LONG way. In this case, chances are, you punched a hole through those lungs, but not in the "best" spot. In my opinion (and I KNOW you don't want to hear this, but what the hey), the ravens ate very well that night. I know that sucks, but shit happens. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch: I have only had one moose that walked maybe 25 yards after the shot through the lungs/heart. This one was a moose I called in from a distance. It came in as close as 175 yards from me, mad as hell, then turned around and walked away when it saw me. It turned just enough for me to take a quartering away shot on the right side, so the 230-grain FS broke one rib and scraped the next, then traveled through the heart/lungs, broke the shoulder bone at the other side, and finally stopped at the hide. All the other moose I have shot from 100 to 300 yards have dropped on the spot, or pretty close to it. Most I have shot with 230-grain FS bullets from my .338 WM, and last year's moose dropped with one 250-grain NOS through the lungs. This time I used a Federal HE load.

I have been doing the same for years, and have noticed that moose shot low through the lungs usually drop pretty fast. I aim just behind the shoulder bone to hit the heart, but I have also taken shoulder shots with the same results. The problem I have with shoulder shots is that when the shoulder bones are broken, it is more difficult to roll the moose around even with a winch, and some excellent meat is destroyed.

But, I have no idea if I could stop an elk just as fast. I have never hunted elk, and I heard elk are pretty tough.

I have never seen it happen on deer, but I have seen it happen on elk once and twice on Eland...The shot went over the lungs and under the spine in that very narrow area, I have no idea if it has anything to do with lungs being inflated or not...but they will make many tracks when it happens.

I sure would like to know where you guys hunt elk where you don't have to take going away shots in the timber!! Thats why I use a 338 with 250 Noslers or 300 gr. Woodleighs minimum. I can and will shot a big bull in the "A$$" if thats the shot I get and I will take him home. I can't remember the last elk I saw standing broadside, where I hunt in Idaho. I can't remember shooting an elk that I didn't have to wrap a leg around a tree to keep from rolling off the mountainside...

Idaho is pretty steep in my hunting ground..The upside? you can kick him once and he will roll to the road if he doesn't hang up.

I have seen more than a few elk wounded by the 270 and the 30-06, usually from people trying to shoot them at long range..that 06 starts turning into a 30-30 carbine at about 400 and a 30 carbine out a bit more, and if your just a tad off, you got a hell of tracking job on your hands, it happens.

I've noticed all the worlds best shots are on cyberspace and can place their bullets with precision placement, even when out of breath from climbing to 11,000 feet, and running 200 yards flat out to head off the herd, so I'm sure this is not a problem on this thread.

It be does dumb bubbas that can't type, out there hunt'en them elk and wounding them on Sunday, stead of being in church.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Interesting take,that "Joe Average" is best served with little practice,a shiny new 338Win and trying to hit a fleeing Bull in the ass.

I couldn't side with that train of thought...............

New to the forum.I have killed and seen elk killed with many many standard and magnum calibers. Yes- I've even killed elk with a 270 win. I firmly believe that there is no sustitute for proper shot placement.

I believe that a mature bull elk has a tenacity for life that few North American big game animals have.

Elk tags/permits can be difficult to come by. Seasons are short. Distances and shot angles vary.

I have killed and seen elk killed with 338 win mag.,340 wby.,338 RUM.,338-378 KT.,and 338-378 wby.In my opinion, these are the best of the best for elk hunting in all kinds of conditions. I think that these calibers do make a difference for hunting mature bull elk providing that you can handle the recoil.

Just my opinion..

Right on Vinnie. Welcome to the Forum.

Ray, I've dropped an elk in 5 paces, too, even without hitting bone. Same difference. But lung shots and shoulder shots are a whole different ball game.

Ray, I've walked up to within 40 yards of two bull elk in the last two years in Central Idaho. Of course, there wasn't a road to roll down to, either........ You just have to go get them where they live. FWIW, Dutch.

BigStick you seem to be missing the words that Big Nate has also tried to get through your obvious closed ears. So try and slow your thought process down just a wee bit. I DO PRACTICE A LOT AND CAN HIT WHAT I DAMN WELL AIM AT UNDERSTOOD. Perhaps the enlarge print will help your eyesight.

10Point thanks for the welcome, but a Bar being to heavy. You must have a desk job! Try eating something good for breakfest in the mornings. I read a medical journal report on folks who don't get enough protein or carb's in their body's, makes them weak.

Dutch and Big Nate your words or wisdom are right on fellows, hell you have done talked me into that 338 Bar already, just can't wait to go buy the gun. It has a beautiful wood stock too.

Atkinson reminds me of an old cowboy I had the pleasure to be around during elk season a couple of times. Never talked a whole lot, but when he did you sort of new he had been there and done it at least twice in his lifetime already. Thanks you all for making this interesting, been a real pleasure reading up on things.

T/Jazz,

If you can "hit you damn well aim at",you'd be hanging your 270 atop the rack of the Bull you lost. Sad,but true.

I wish you nothing but improved "luck",with your new purchase..........

I have a friend in Oregon that uses a 338 for everything, and he swears by it. His son uses a 270 w/Barnes and swears by it. Since they both get their game, must be an Oedipal thing. Seriously, move up if it is in your blood. I doubt you will regret doing it. I found the 8MM RM to be quite nice, but lacking in bullet selection, and over the counter availability. 338 is very popular, readily available over the counter, and is not a BAD choice at all.

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Good Shooting!

Hey Big Stick! Say guy, don't you shoot a Big Shinny New 338 Ultra mag? What gives?
Isn't someone else entitled to do like wise if he or she chooses or is it not a democracy where you live. Anyway I am quite sure I will enjoy the gun or guns if I so choose for it to be plural. Grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, but first one must get over there and decide for themselves. I wish all of you a great work week ahead.

Big Stick if you could explain your choice of username. I would have thought with that name you would advocate using nothing less than a 378 Wby.

T/Jazz,

That was neither a snide remark,nor a kick in the nuts. Just my take on reality.

I believe one makes his own "luck",throughout much of this life. Knowing when to shoot,isn't as important as knowing when NOT to shoot(my opinion,of course). Placement,projectile selection and knowing anatomy help one become "lucky". Actual cartridge selection,pales in importance,when weighed in a direct comparison(within reason of course).

Shoot what you like,but shoot it well...........

Actually,I shot a 378Wby as my main rifle for a while. I rather like the cartridge,but had issues with the rifle itself(I shot it toi death). To their credit,Weatherby made good on the rifle,in a manner that very much impressed me.

I think the 338Ultra is about the best thing going. It offers sensational trajectories,combined with a nice diameter and excellent energies. The examples I have shot,including mine,are extremely accurate. It is by far the "best" of the Ultra cartridges,in my estimation. The slightly shortened case,allows some nice latitude for working within the confines of a box magazine,regarding seating depth.

Though an excellent chambering,it isn't for everyone. For a guy who can shoot the shit out of one,he'd have to look long and hard for a better "all arounder"................

Ray Atkinson,

On another forum a hunter lost a deer shot high in the ribs. The bullet went just under the spine and the deer fell down and then got up and ran off and was not found until the next day. The rifle was a .270 Win and the bullet a Hornady 140 gr ptd bt. The range was less than 100 yards. I believe every part of the story as the thread went on and the hunter shot on his own land in CT which is my own state! He also shot in the local centerfire competition. I have never lost a animal hit like that but I see them get up and run all the time when hit with small calibers at 75 yards.

It may also be that certain parts of the lungs have light veins and others arteries and that could cause a wide variance.

I have no idea where the lungs are all of the time. When I rip them out with my hand they seem lightly tacked with ligiments to the cavity. I still want to know if they are filled all of the time however.

T/Jazz, Here is another wrench in the mix for you to look at...I don't have the numbers commited to memeory, but if you can get your hands on a ballistics chart that will show you FPS and Energy ft lbs,,,compare the 300win mag to the 338win mag. I think you will see that at the range that you are talking there is not alot of energy difference between the 2. Then look at the drop. I went with the 300win mag in a Browning A-Bolt, LOVE the gun...I shoot 165gr nos parts and have had no problems with reach or kill on Elk, Deer, or Antelope. Good luck on the shopping!!!! Heck thats half the fun!!!! Ed

I'd prefer the 300win I think with a little less recoil you'll shoot it better, I know I would!! As to accuracy of the Belgium BARs I can definately say they ARE as accurate as or more accurate than a lot of of the shelf bolt guns. Mine will shot 1" - 1 1/2" all day with a variety of loads, I've seen a lot of bolts won't do that!!