Okay, so I have pretty well decided to stick with a 300 Win Mag vs. the 300 WSM. In addition to the comments already made from some of you, I found several articles on the topic that convinced me to stick with the tried and true. One issue no one mentioned is that the WSM or any of the other short magnums have a problem with cartridge length and the 180's are about the limit in bullet weight for them.

Anyway, my next question....should I go with a Sako 75 or Winchester Classic (either would be in stainless steel version). I must say, I have a Sako 75 in 25-06 now and I am mighty impressed. They seem to do everything right from fit/finish, accuracy, trigger, detachable magazine, free floated barrel and so on. However, since so many of you seem to think the Winchester is the best production rifle, make your case. One issue that is important is that the Sako is about $400 more up here than a Winchester Classic but since I intend to keep this one, the cost won't be the deciding issue. Thanks for your input.

Eagle Eye,
I've got five Winchesters and two Sakos Finnbears (with a third on the way). All of them shoot well, and are well-finished.

I've taken a real shine to the Model 70 (after reading about them for 20 years, they finally started making them in LH).

That said, I've heard of bad Winchesters, but I've NEVER heard of a bad Sako.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

I don't know about Winchester but I have a Sako .280 Rem and it is VERY high quality. I will have a hard time buying anything else. In fact, a Sako 7mm-08 might be a good idea.

The Sako 75 is a very good production rifle for a few reasons: a simple, well designed trigger, beefy parts throughout, and a big magazine for proper feeding-- the detachable clip version is probably the best clip on the market-- and the stock fits well. Having stated that, I chose a M70 Classic for my pride and joy custom rifle; that CRF action is hard to beat and the triggers are excellent as well. If price isn't a dtermining factor, go for the Sako.

I have little shooting time with Winchester 70's. I have had ok results when I have shot them. I have heard resently that they are going back to the pre 64 style. Is that what your calling a 70 classic? I have heard to many complants in resent years about the Winchester fit and finsh. Granted that doesn't make them shoot bad in most cases, but I like to look at a rifle and see I got something that was put together by someone who wants my return pateranage.
For my money I have never found a better off the shelf rifle than Sako. My father had a Finnbear in 30-06 that was the best shooting rifle I have ever handled(off the shelf)
I'm waiting righ now for a Sako 75. Stainless 300Winnie that should be here any day. It will be outfitted with a nice Loupold VeriX 3 When It gets here I'll let you know how it shoots
You may do well to look in to Tikka also you may already know it, but they are made by Sako. I have heard it said that they are seconds to Sako,but I see nothing second about them. They look like dang fine rifles to me. I have not shot one though.
X-Ring AKA Scooter

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Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!

If your living like there is no HELL, you better be right!

If cost is not a deciding factor the choice is obvious...."SAKO".

Sako would be my choice,To me it is a better grade rifle.

There are many aspects to the older, especially pre-72 Sakos, which I believe are superior to either the Model 70 or to the current production Model 75 Sako. So if I were doing it, I'd look for a cherry L61R, which can be had for less money than either a new Winchester or new Sako.

But if your choice is limited to the new rifles, go with Sako.

By the way, your choice of the .300 Winchester Magnum over the WSM is a wise one.

[This message has been edited by Stonecreek (edited 01-10-2002).]

In other strings, many shooters have raved about the model 70. Therefore, I looked at them as a prospect even though my past experiences with Winchester have been poor to say the least. So, I guess I am rather surprised at the overwhelming vote for Sako. I agree that the Sako is a better rifle but I expected more "rah rah" for the rifleman's rifle. Anyway, thanks for your input.

I'll take a control feed Winchester anyday over a Sako. I really would rather have a pre 64 Win used than any new rifle made today. My first choice is a Mod. 98 Mauser that has been properly customized then a pre 64 Win. Mod. 70...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Sounds like you've already made your mind up but how about the sako that's priced like a Winchester??---the Tikka. I have one and think very highly of it. I think distributer price around here is about $450 with stainless steel I think I could get my gunshop to bring one in for about $500- $525.

I've got a Sako 75 classic in 6,5x55 M and a Winchester 70 Classic ("Pre64") in a wildcat caliber. For all hunting where I really need to know that my rifle do the job, when I do it, I would take the Winchester.

The Sako is a wery nice, sturdy and precise rifle. It has among other features got the most perfect detachable magasine that is made as I know, but there are two reasons why I would not choose the Sako 75. One of them is really serious:

1: Shooting another Sako 75 than the one I own (stainless steel, same calibre) I had big problems with the extraction of one lot of amunition (normal pressure, cases where loose in the chambre after fiering).This happened in 32 degrees Celsius below sero, but gave me that little doubth wich is laying there back in my mind all the time. It has only happened once. The same faileure could in my opinion have happened to any rifle based on a extractor that are not of the Mauser/Pre 64-type with controled feeding.

2: My english vocabulary is a little bit short, but I will try to explain the other problem I see with the Sako 75, WHICH IN MY OPINION IS REALLY SERIOUS AND BAD FOR A ACTION THAT IN MOST OTHER DETAILS ARE PERFECT:
Imagine that you are aiming with a bolt action rifle. The rear part of the bolt that you can see from this "aiming-position" is turned a litle bit around the bolt itself when you are operating the bolt handle. (In this movement you are in most actions pressing the fiering-spring together, and the angle of rotation varies from about 60 degrees to 90 degrees, think the Sako has got 70 or 75).
At the M98, Pre64/M70 Classic, Brno 602/550 and many other actions this part of the bolt is "fixed to the bolt by some sort of fixing-lug", and may therefore not be turned out of its position. IN THE SAKO IT IS NOT. When I have been shooting fast at moving targets it has happened several times that this part of the bolt has been bent out of position, due to rough handling by my thumb, resulting in a bolt that can not bee used before you have used many seconds to fix it. I bet many hunters are going to experience this problem sooner or later with Sako 75. To mee it is a big mistake to produce a hunting rifle in this way. When hunting dangerous animals it is playing with BIG HAZARD USING THE SAKO 75, when unmodified at this point.
It makes me sad; hope the engineers (or perhapes more likely; the guys that are calculating the production-costs?) at Sako OY fix this big faileure in a next generation of the model 75!!!

I have to pick at one other detail at the Sako 75 too. It is the safety-lock in the same rear part as discussed above. It is easy to dissasemble this without the key. It is f.ex. open for rain/whater and may frees, perhapes making the gun unusable in low temperatures. But in the US you may be forced to by this model due to heavy regulations?

I have been using my Sako for competition. In competitions where you don't need to shoot really fast it would be my choice also for the future. For competition that requieres really speed in repeating a new round into the chambre, or for seriouse hunting, it would not be my choise.

I agree with Ola about the Sako 75 bolt. It's easy to open it by mistake when shooting.

IMHO an old Sako Finnbear or Forester is a much better buy. For the same money a Sako 75 is you can buy a used SAKo Finnbear + a high quality fiberglass stock like McMillan (instead of the flimsy plastic Monte Carlo thing on the 75). A Sako Finnbear/Forester has 90 degree bolt lift, fixed magazine, better fit/finish, better trigger, is lighter, works under all weather conditions. The only plus with the 75 is that it's available in stainless.

I bought a Sako 75 when they first came and traded my old Sako. I regretted it almost immidiately. A couple of months later after some hunting and rifle competetions I sold the 75 and bought a used 25 year old Sako.

Eagle eye check out the new Tikka's, anyone I've seen shoots super, high quailty, & competatively $$ with anybody.

I've used three different .300 Winchester Magnum custom rifles built on Model 70 actions to take over 100 big game animals; mostly since 1994. I have never had one moment of trouble with any of these guns, and I can only say that the .300 Win. Mag. is my very favorite big game caliber. It just-plain works.

To me, the Model 70 is the perfect soulmate for the .300 Win. Mag. - it was the first rifle chambered for this caliber, after all - and besides that, if there is such a thing as a world-standard commercial big game rifle, the Model 70 is surely it.

Besides that, and while I do like the Sako 75, I like the looks and function of the Model 70 a whole lot better.

AD

Why not try the Swedish Carl Gustaf 2000. I have one in 9,3x62 and had one in 6,5x55.
It�s also chambered for .300 Win Mag.
It cost approx. as much as a Sako, but I find it a better rifle.
The barrel AND the action is coldhammered.
And, it�s the best looking modern rifle on the market today.
If this rifle not is interresting, buy a Sako,which is better than a Winchester.

Ola, I really don't know what you're trying to describe. I'll just say that I have two 75's and have never experienced any sort of problem with the bolts, triggers, extractors, safeties or anything else. I really like these rifles a lot. Mine don't have the key, by the way.

With that said, my next rifle purchase may very well be a Winchester Model 70 Classic Super Grade simply because I've never owned a Model 70 and would like to see what they're all about.

I must say this question sure has brought on some replies!

I was very intrigued by the comments from Ola. I have had a Sako 75 in 25-06 for almost a year now and never experienced any problems with it at all. In fact, it has been flawless and beyond all my expectations. Mind you, I tend to stay indoors when it is colder than -10c. I don't know of many man made objects that work well in extreme cold. I have played with the action, disassembled the bolt many times and so on. I think the Sako 75 is extremely well made and well engineered. They are simple and robust. Best of all, it keeps shooting into the same point of impact which afterall, is ultimately what it is all about. Someone made a comment about the stock being flimsy but my impression is the opposite. I like it and think it is a heck of a lot better than the synthetic ones on a Remington, Browning or Winchester. But heck, to each his own.

As for the Tikka....I have looked at them in detail and I agree that they are a good, well made bargain. However, they have two traits that I can't get used to...the palm swell is too big for me and the stock is somewhat ungainly (read that - like a 2x4). So I guess in another stock, I would consider one. Does anyone make a replacement stock for the Tikka?

Thanks again for all your comments. I appreciate your input.

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 01-11-2002).]

Ola:

I beg to differ with your comments. I have a Sako 75 in a .222 based wildcat, which I have had for about a year. I've never had a problem with the bolt opening. Truthfully, much as I like the older Sakos, I think the 75 is a far better design. The older Sakos (any model witht he bolt guide) were prone to some binding. The Sako 75 is not. Additionally, the shorter bolt throw avoids scraping knuckles on knurled scope power adjusting rings, etc. I am in love with the stylishness of the older Sakos (Rihiimakis, Vixens, A series, etc.) but the 75 is a superior design---IMHO.

Jordan

Winchester!!

Delta Hunter; Eagle Eye and Jordan:

You all seems to like the Sako 75 very much. So do I, and I find it very "flattering" that experienced shooters and hunters "over there" find a Finish rifle to be of that good quality as it really is. And: I find the 75 to be the best for my form of competition shooting. I still have had those experiences that in my opinion are not ideal for a 100% dependable hunting-rifle...

Malfunction in -32C: As I mentioned in my previous note that could probably have happened to any action that are based on non-controlled feeding. And of course: Most people never go for hunting in -32c, neither do I. But I could very well be hunting lynx in -20 or have to look after a moose hurt by car-crash in such temperature.

I have reasently been thinking about rebarreling a Sako 75 into 9,3 x 64 to get the ideal moose-rifle. My experiences make me go for a action with controlled feeding, and some "fixing system" between the bolt and this rear part of it.(As another writer in this forum wrote earlier; devil is working...)

And I have to say:
Paul Mauser made an exeptional good system with the M98. Winchester improved it to the best action for hunting rifle's ever made, in my opinion.

Thanks for your addition post Ola...very interesting and I appreciate your candor. It is always good to hear from another Nordic countryman! Keep warm....I must say that the idea of hunting at -20c doesn't insprie me to get out there! I draw the line long before that.

Well, this morning I did it. I went and looked at them both again and bought the Sako 75 SS in 300 Win Mag. I can't wait to see if this one shoots as well as my other Sako. I must say I was impressed with the Winnie Model 70 I looked at too but once I was smitten by the Sako bug, there was no doubt which one to buy. I am not convinced that I need CRF in any rifle I own. I don't don't hunt grizzlies or browns so I don't see the requirement. In fact, since they can't be single round fed, I wonder at times if CRF wouldn't be a detriment. I have never had a rifle not feed properly under fire either but I did have a Winchester drop plate open once while cycling rounds on a hunt about 20 years ago. All my ammo ended up in the snow.

Anyway, thanks again to all that posted their comments. Have a great year all....see you in cyberspace. EE

I love the old L-461 and A-2 line and the Riimaki's, but the new ones leave me cold from a design standpoint and are they ever over priced..They took a fine rifle and cheapened it up and raised the price..the bean counters at work again...

You would think they would have learned from Winchester, when they dropped the pre 64 and then went broke several times, changed hands a bunch and now they are back with the pre 64 after some 20 or so years....Sako would do well to take heed....

The old guns were just a lot nicer by a whole lot. I love my little 6x45mm L461 Sako with a M-70 built out of a piece of barrel and with a nice piece of dark red walnut custom stock.
It shoots in the .200 class just as regular as clock work and weighs 5 lbs with a 2X7 Leupold compact scope. thoes little actions are slicker n snot...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

make that a m-70 safty built out of a piece of bull barrel above.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Sako, there is no substitute! In fact, out of the 90 firearms that I own, 81 of them have Sako stamped on them. Consequently, my wife has encouraged me to start attending Sako Anonymous meetings.

[This message has been edited by DOCTOR LOU (edited 01-13-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DOCTOR LOU (edited 01-14-2002).]

Mr. Atkinson, I would appreciate it if you would be more specific about the Sakos. Why exactly is the current Model 75 inferior to its predecessors? I ask in all sincerity because I really want to know. I've never owned or handled the older models myself and can't compare them. All I know is that my two 75's have been excellent rifles so far. They are both very, very accurate and have functioned properly in all instances.

I'm not Mr. Atkinson but I'll point out why I think older Sako's are better. I don't think the 75 is a bad rifle just that the older ones were better overall:

*trimmer and handier action, less material, less bulky, more balanced, lighter
*better fit and finish
*2 locking lugs = 90 degree bolt lift stronger firing pin spring, better in cold weather or if dirt in action.
*better trigger
*better recoil lug
*fixed magazine
*cheaper: used "as new" sako + new McMillan stock + scope mounts = less money than new Sako 75

sako 75would be my choice

weidmanns heil

martin

/

AMEN!

Sako or Winchester? How can you go wrong? For me it really comes down to feel, with the Winchester just feeling better. Most of my serious game guns are second generation Super Grades and I don't think I could have any custom rifle fit me better. With someone else it might be that the Sako fits better. Try both before making any decision.
For what its worth I think you made the right decision on caliber. The .300 Win Mag is a proven fantastic game killer but the new short magnum fad leaves me underwhelmed.

[This message has been edited by JBD (edited 01-16-2002).]

The tri lug design used by the m75 was first
developed with the help of Jack Warne of
Warne Industries (rings & mounts) and father
of Greg who started Kimber of Oregon.
Jack always said that the tri lug was a lot
cheaper to produce. Kimber had a Tri lug
design (m770) on the books and a few prototypes made up about the same time Sako
came out with it's own tri-lug. They will tell you it's better in function, but it's not. That's all marketing hype to sell a cheaper made rifle. Though one cannot find fault with it's fit & finnish. The older Sako's are a better designed action.

Well, I'm really intrigued by the comments about the older Sako's. I might just have to acquire one to see for myself. Ray, I'm still waiting to hear from you.

Eagle Eye,

I'm not sure where you got that information, but on my CRF rifles (Ruger M77 MkII, Win M70 Classic), the extractor WILL "snap" over a round that is manually chambered (not magazine fed). That's how you get the 3+1 (for example) capability.

It would also seem to be a rather serious "safety" concern on a DG rifle to me. Loading the 375 H&H rounds into the magazine of my new M70 classic is not a "drop on top and push down" process (you have to do a "slide forward, push down, slide back"), and I would not want to have to attempt it with a bear/buffalo after me!

I'm not sure about other CRF rifles, but would expect them to be the same.

It is true that you should always feed from the magazine on magazine fed semi-automatics such as the Colt 1911 pistol, and M1A rifle, but for different reasons. On the Colts, you can ruin your extractor "snapping" the extractor over the cartridge rim (don't ask how I know this). You can get slam-fires on an M1A because the bolt is slowed down when it strips the round off of the magazine (the firing pin is floating, and the inertia of the pin can contact the primer with sufficient force to detonate it).

Hope this helps,

Bill

I absolutely agree with ALF on the stainless Sako vs the Winchester. I had a stainless .375 H&H Mod. 70 and just never liked it. It shot OK but the overall presentation just never pleased me. In fact, I have had bad luck with Mod. 70 375s in general. Prior to the stainless I had both a push feed and new classic model that were beautiful rifles. They both had stocks from the custom shop. However, I never could get either one to shoot good consistent groups. That is primarily why I went to the .338. Anyway, if going the stainless route I would go Sako.

For those that missed my previous post, I bought the Sako 75 in Stainless. I have a Leupold 3.5x10x40 to mount on it. I have ordered Leupold Ringmounts for this scope instead of the heavy Sako Optilock mount that I have on my other Sako. The Leupold system is recommended by Jon Sundra. It is lighter and mounts the scope lower on the rifle. I'll let you know how she shoots next week.

I must clarify my previous post on this thread. After further research, I found out that the early/true Mauser actions (and copies) must be fed from the magazine. The extractor will not snap over the cartridge rim. So, Eagle Eye, you were correct in that respect.

Also, after further examination of the Model 70 Classic, the cartridges WILL load straight down into the magazine (the above post description was from the owner's manual).

My apologies,

Bill

Thanks Bill...you had me second guessing myself.

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 01-23-2002).]

I have a Sako Finnbear listed in the Classifieds section. Its also listed on Gunsamerica under number 976203480. I'm also looking for trades. Thanks

Eagle Eye,

Never heard of a bad Sako.

But have heard, and owned, plenty of bad .300 Win Mags. Who told you that 180 grains is the limit for bullet weight in the .300 WSM? Completely untrue, unless you only shoot factory. And in that case there is a 180 grain bullet factory load that will do whatever you need a rifle in North American to do.

The .300 WSM is equivalent in every ballistic comparison to the .300 Win Mag in factory ammo. In handloads it is only 50 fps behind. But it is FAR more accurate, as anyone who has worked with both cartridges will tell you. This, and a lighter rifle, is why it is selling.

Some of the old crusty types on here can't accept progress. I wouldn't SELL a good .300 Win Mag if i owned one, but I sure as shot wouldn't BUY a .300 Win Mag over a .300 WSM now.

www.rifleshooter.com