What, no takers?

I don't take 1000 yard shots on game...I MAKE THEM...

What, no takers?

If I could see 1000 yds. If I had a rifle that could consistantly hit a 8" target at 1000 yds. If I could consistantly hit an 8" target at 1000 yds. If I had a rifle range with 1000 yard targets. If pigs could fly..........I might start to practice. But I can't promise I would. And if I did, I warned you.

Over the years, I have known a very few who say they do this. Very few of that number actually do shoot at the range you mentioned. Closer to 500/700 yards, which is no mean feat itself. Funny how many one shot kills, or clean misses they claim, even so. How can you call a clean miss at even 500 yards? Without going to take a look, that is. There are some, however, that are succesfull at these ranges. I shot enough targets at 800/1000 yards to know I shouldn't shoot that range, at game. But, that is just me.

If anybody come's up to you and claimed that they made a 1000 yard shot, just smile and walk away, knowing in your heart that it was only 500! My point is that some people tend to over-estimate range.

Bakes

mrlexma
I don't take those shots, only because I'm not good enough yet, but I'm working on it.
I see a lot of people (local hunters) that shouldn't (ethicly) take a shot at over 25 yards (I'm being generous), and they believe that a 338 Ultra mag is required at that (25yd) distance (magnum makes up for lack of shooting skill?).
If you want to critize(sp) someone, why don't you go after the guys that DON'T practice, that DO blast at any brown hair they see, that DO hunt while drinking, that CAN'T hit a barn from inside, that DO leave a lot of wounded anamals behind, that DO shoot first and check for horns after, that DO think a 8" group at 50yd defines "tack driver", that DO believe that using a lever action and a Tasco scope on "Ironsighter mounts" ("just got her last night at Wallmart, ain't see a beauty?") makes them a hunter, etc instead?

Tailgunner
The opposite of the "just bought her at Wally world" or other discount store is the expensive fire breathing magnum lounden banger that will, "take em at any distance, no natter where ya hit em." The claim is that if ya sight it in dead on at 100 yards you don't have to adjust for anything clear out to 500 yards!

The other end of this whole argument is to stick the best reasonable velocity and bullet BC in a calculator . . .
look at bullet drop at 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 yards. Most of us (me included) can NOT tell the difference in these distances under hunting conditions. For the truly accomplished marksmen among us the laser rangefinder is truly a boon as it will allow them to precisely place a killing shot quite a ways out there.

Another little consideration that great shooting rifle that places shots within 1.5 inches at 100 yards . . . multiply that times 10 and then throw in the wiggle factor for the shooter not using all the lock down equipment they had at the range. Remember how many you have seen sight in with one of those rifle vises at the range, now just check the zero with the gun held freehand or even on bags.

The rest of us need to limit our shots to distances at which we can adequately perform!

LouisB

Just an opinion of course!

A trolling post but I'll enter anyway..

I believe that first a separation should be made between the type of shooter Mr. Bakes brings up and the type of shooter that shoot precision long range, and add a third category

Group 'A'...the guess at the range, hold a little high or "it's still point-blank range" and let her fly guys.

Group 'B'...the range the critter with an accurate rangefinding method/device (optical, laser or pre-established grid, etc), check environmentals again, decide if the shot is doable and the critter is predictable, adjust the scope or select the appropriate aiming point on the reticle grid, confer with the spotter if one is along, recheck conditions, confirm shooting position (sort of automatic) and shoot. Watch the projectiles progress (if the distance is great enough) and the animal while loading another round. Go collect the critter.

Group 'C'...I very often find that folks will "adopt" a shot made by someone else and either take it on as their own or they will extend the range of the original/actual shot during the various re-telling of the story. I personally find this very annoying but these folks are often known by their companions for this behavior and these tales can be shortened a bit.

I know some group 'A' shooters and some but not all are prone to distance exageration(s). I know many group 'B' shooters...and some of them are prone to exageration(s) but it generally has no effect on the actual shot mechanics.

Group 'A' I will agree are often Idiots or uninformed/novice types. If a novice continues with this type behavior without learning the low probability of success and seeking the more proper method(s) then the Idiot label should probably be firmly affixed and loudly displayed (sort of automatic).

Group 'C' are somewhat harmless as no animals were harmed during the making of their ficticious exploits... These types can however do some damage to the original shooter's character if it's just a "range correction/exageration" the re-teller makes.

Group 'B' is what I will cover here.

The range must be known before the shot or there's no need to shoot...it'll be a miss either high or low. The reason the range is required is that the shooter compensates for the exact range either by adjusting the scope to that exact distance or using a mark on a graduated reticle. Depending on the distance, rifle trajectory (projectile speed, BC) and environmentals (altitude included) an error in distance of 25 to 50 yards could cause a miss.

SO...now we know that the precision long range shooter must KNOW the distance to the animal. If the shooter tells you the distance it's either that distance or it's a group 'C' person relating the event.

I'm not an extreme long range shooter, I shoot to 940 yards on a fairly regular basis and have only shot significantly beyond 1000 yards a handful of times. The furthest I've killed a critter is 905 yards (but ask a few of my type 'C' friends and the distance varies between 1000 and 1300 yards). I currently have a 650 yard limit on big game animals...an arbitrary limit set a few years back.

Due to a flurry of these "can't be done" posts (a 500 yard elk rifle/cartridge post I believe) I recently set up a target to try to show just how easy a 500 yard shot can be made. I used a new rifle I had received, a 6.5 x 284 Norma. I loaded up some 140 A-Maxs in unfired brass. I had previously zeroed the rifle with these loads and shot them across the chronograph...2864fps. I had only this 100 yard data and the trajectory data for a 300 Win mag load of 190 Federal Gold Medal Match. Using this data I went to a range close by (150 plus or minus miles) and setup a series of targets on a piece of plywood. I can not do this for 1000 yards...it's another level of precision and accuracy requirement. If I use the data I have from this 500 yard shoot and gather additional data to 1000 yards then I'd say yes, can do 1 MOA to 1000 yards...sufficient to kill critters if I were to choose to do so.

I'll include the entire post from another site.

I did the 500 yard thing...got some useful data to 500 for my 6.5 x 284 load. I used computer generated data for the shoot and will adjust (fine tune) off that. They're all fine kill shots...some will argue that I'd have missed a head shot at 400 and 500 (there's always one that's gotta have something to bitch about).
Didn't have time to shoot any more...took my 243 but brought it back un-fired. Too many honey-do items at home to stay away too long (and I want next weekend off).

I'll score and link the target(s) tomorrow.

Hell... changed my mind.

These were shot after being stapled to a 4'x8' ft piece of plywood. The load was 140 Hornady A-Max and 51 grain of H4831, new un-fired Lapua brass.

I didn't have any data for this rifle or load and elected to use the 300 Win Mag 190 Sierra Gold Medal Match come-ups (computer generated @ 2900fps BC .525)... I did this mainly to show that 500 yard shooting is really an easy affair even with "nearly accurate" data. (I know the 6.5 x 284 is about the same in trajectory as the 190 GMM 300 Win...that's one reason I shoot it.) I had a young fella with me...he helped out and ranged the target(s) as we moved downrange... we couldn't get a 300 yard shot and shot from a berm at 325 yards plus or minus a few (I used the 300 yard come-ups anyway). There was a bit of wind... I used .5 MOA Left every once in a while... for 400 and 500 yards there was a double wind, left from about 200 to the target and right from me to about 300 yards...there was a tree line between 300 and 200 and this caused the double wind...there was also a rise/ridge there and at 400 and 500 I shot through a significant mirage (I was shooting very close to the top of the intermediate rise/ridge).

The black circles on this targets are about 1 MOA for the range shot... 3 inches at 300 yards, 5 inches a 500 yards. (other than 300 yards)... no shots were more than 1 MOA from the intended Point of Impact (POI) and all groups were at or under 1 MOA in size. There were no sighters and no re-tries...all shots were fired from "MY" field (hunting) position (bipod and sand sock). The numbers indicating LOW/HIGH LEFT/RIGHT are calculated from the measured center of the three (3) shot group. (No animals were injured in the creation of this data...some fossil fuel was burned, lead an copper were released into the environment. Several insects were smashed beyond recognition and one horse fly was knocked about a bit.)

Here's the targets.



1000 yards is just 1000 yards, group 'B' folks can make the shot when they elect to do so.

Can group 'A' folks make the shots they profess... I doubt it and I believe they doubt it too but the rounds go downrange anyway!

Can group 'C' folks make the shot(s)...Sure as it's already in-the-bag.

Boy, I'm really glad this subject popped up! Didn't think anybody would ever bring this up here. My own longest shot was around 1 klick. that was judged, not measured. Tracer burnout with the 7.62 Nato was around 760 meters in that era as I recall. It took more than one shot but I wasn't using sights. You never know what you can do until you try; you may not try until properly motivated. JMExperience

Pardon my provocative post.

But I had begun to doubt, based on my review of other posts here on this same general subject, that some would even admit that 1,000 yards might be a long range shot on game.

Most of us(myself included) are being unethical shooting at big game at 400 yards. If one is shooting at 1,000 yards there's something loose in the brain.

Among the very longest range guns today is the .378 Weatherby. With a 100 yard sight-in it's 40" low at 500 yards and still has 2800 ft-lbs of energy. Thats truly powerful.

However it's 20" lower than at 400 yards and at 600 yards it's roughly 50" lower......and no one publishes data beyond that. At 1000 yards the bullet is falling from the sky.

I'd venture that a sportsman with even a .378 Weatherby is truly challenged at 400 yards.

Absent some kind of accurate range finding, any long shot is problematic. Nuf said.

a factor that no one is mentioning is the wind. maybe there isn't any where "the good LR shooters" live, but the rest of the country has it. whatever the wnd is doing where you are shooting may or MAY NOT be the same as what it is doing a thousand yards away. if it is across a canyon or at an angle, it is CERTAIN that the wind will be different, and that will affect where the pill hits.

>>>Group 'B'...the range the critter with an accurate rangefinding method/device (optical, laser or pre-established grid, etc), check environmentals again, decide if the shot is doable and the critter is predictable, adjust the scope or select the appropriate aiming point on the reticle grid, confer with the spotter if one is along, recheck conditions, confirm shooting position (sort of automatic) and shoot. Watch the projectiles progress (if the distance is great enough) and the animal while loading another round. Go collect the critter.<<<

this may be great shooting, but it is not hunting. period.

the bottom line is an HONEST evaluation of one's own abilities, and unfortunately the internet is a lousy place to find honesty.

[ 09-07-2003, 21:42: Message edited by: tasunkawitko ]

I'm sure there a more than a few "idiots willing to take a 1000 yard shot on game" but there are also many who are not idiots who have the experience, knowledge, along with the equipment to take a 1000 yard shot easily! I personaly hit a target 1 mile away on the first shot last week. Would I shoot at game at that distance, probably not but 1000 yards, no problem. I have made first round hits at that distance repeatedly, and in the wind. So to all you who make misguided statements about something you have little to no knowledge of, you sound more like idiots to me.

I have laid off this as long as I can. Only a very small fraction of a percent of the registered members of this site have the equipment, knowledge, or experience to do this, BUT shooters like Boyd, Darryl, Wayne, and a select few others can and do make shots like this. Lets see, these shooters shoot several thousand rounds a year at long range. I would bet that most members of this site don't shoot a thousand rounds through their hunting rifles in 5 years at 100 yards let lone long range. Four short years ago, I was of the same opinion as short range hunters. After shooting 1K competition for the last 2 years, now I know it can be done repeatedly. You should choose your words more carefully sir.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.........RiverRat

River rat (or anybody) in all sincerity, since I picked the .378 Weatherby, lets stick to it.

Can anyone tell me the remaining foot pounds of energy left at 1000 yards??? Also please state the publication in which it is found.

BTW, I know very few people that have the gonads to shoot a .378 Weatherby accurately.

In all honesty, I have no room to criticize anyone who limits themselves to what I think of as "a reasonable shot within their own personal limitations", and I have no doubt that there are a few fellows with considerably longer REASONABLE limits than myself.

That being said, this topic is the same to me as ATV use, littering, drinking, campfires etc. It is always the inconsiderate irresponsible jerks that screw things up for everyone else.

It also cracks me up to read about all of the big talk of 200 and 300 yds being nothing and yet it is always the 100 yd groups that get displayed and the 100 yd range benches that get filled up the fastest.

Like mentioned above, sight a loudenboomer in at 100 yds and its good to shoot the moon.

Vapodog
1783fp @ 1000yd for the factory load I mentioned above (RCBS.load.Ver3)

Vapodog

From the little bit you've posted, the manner in which you've done so and your cartridge selection, I'd suggest you limit yourself to about 100 yards and admit you have a lifetime membership in group 'A'.

tasunkawitko

Wind.... always the wind.

A factor that is ALWAYS considered is the wind. Do you think you're the only person that notices the wind? Wind is a given, and just so it'll get in a little deeper I'll repeat it...wind is a given. Come around to the fact that precision long range shooters know about the wind and it's effect....damn man, do you think the rest of us are blind?

And what do you call it when you take your rifle, go into the field after game, find some/one and shoot it? I call it hunting. I don't go out, stumble about in the fields and forests jumping game in the hopes of getting a clear shot as they haul-ass to safety. I study an area to find water, food, bedding and trails. I setup where I can see as many of these areas as possible or the most probable to maximize my opportunities to see a desirable game animal. Once a critters appears the fits the bill I shoot it... I call that hunting.

it is interesting how the laws of physics and nature always seem to suspend themselves for the so-called "long-range expert." the wind could be going the same direction down there, or a different one; it could be going the same speed or a different speed. there are many factors simply involving wind, and they all affect where the pill will go. the bottom line is that there is no way in hell to KNOW that the wind is doing at the end of your thousand yards when you are trying to play carlos hathcock on a game animal. let me guess - you shoot game with matchkings or some other match-grade bullet too?

and no, shooting an animal from 1000 yards away is not hunting. if you want to be a sniper, join the military and do it there. otherwise, shoot paper. unless you just want to see red spray. then shoot milk jugs full of colored water.

shooting an killing an animal takes less than 1 second, and is the smallest part of the hunt. if you can't develop your other hunting skills, stay at the range. if you screw up there, the only thing that will happen is a "flyer" on the target. if you screw up in the field, an animal will be gutshot or otherwise wounded, and if yu bother to try to track it, it will take so long to get to the spot where you sniped it that it will be gone, dying a very agonizing death.

To state that 400 yard shots are unethical is BS, plain and simple. With proper training and proper gear anyone with the will to do so can pull it off.

I have friends who shoot literally thousands of gophers and prairie dogs each summer. A few of them are downright dangerous out to 600 yds. And this is on targets the size of a Coke bottle. An elk sized target to these guys is not even challenging. Even with an appropriate elk caliber 400 yd shots are doable.

To all you nay sayers; it CAN be done.

FN in MT

vapodog:
Since don't shoot a 378 Weatherby, I have don't know the remaining velocity or ft.lbs of engery at 1000 nor do I care. What I do know is what my 300 WSM does at that distance and that is all I care about. I did't know gonads were the issue here. The way I see it, everyone should hunt in his/her prefered way, and not impose their views on others. I feel confident in my ability to go to 1000 yards. I live where I can walk out my back door throw down my shooting mat and shoot to well past 1K safely. Very few people have that opportunity. And trust me I take advantage of it. Long Range shooters start load development at 300 to 500 yards. Trust me they know their equipment and there abilities. By the way, I don't use publications to guess trajectory. By using chornograph velocities verified by realy world trajectories, predicting accurate foot pounds of remaining energy is easy.

And by the way Vapo Dog, what is your definition of accurate.

Dave King, you are right this was trolling topic but, damn I couldn't lay off of it.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

Whilst I don't supscribe to any particular "school" of though in regards to this issue.

I don't beleive makeing a 1000yard shot could be any easier than sneaking to 100.

Also how many people who shoot at 100 & 200 yards are more accurate than guys who do it at 500 to 1000?

I you can do it, then fine. The hunter ethics of it are another question and should not come into the question of how hard or easy it is or isn't.

It doesn't make it any better to kill an animal for fun from 50yards and it is from 1000.

This is truly depressing.

Those who would take, or countenance others taking, 1,000 yard shots at BIG GAME ANIMALS IN THE HUNTING FIELDS, FOR GOD'S SAKE, outnumber the sane and ethical by nearly 3 to 1 here.

PLEASE--What one can do under ideal conditions from the bench is irrelevant. So are one's skills as a competitive target shooter, a military sniper or a varmint shooter.

This is about hunting BIG GAME ANIMALS, IN THE BUSH, where not all of the variables that affect making your shot can be controlled, and where those that are uncontrollable can be highly adverse.

Are all of you hotshots always presented with perfect broadside shots at animals frozen in place, who are so considerate of your skills that they stand and smile while you shoot them with your laser range finder, dope the wind and mirage, dial in your elevation and windage adjustments, consult your spotter, assume the prone position (presumably you only hunt on golf courses where the lawn is nicely trimmed for you) and take all day to squeeze off your slow fire shot?

Give me a break. You're living in Fantasyland.

Here's a real life example of what can happen when everything controllable is perfectly handled, but the uncontrollable screws things up, even at really short range.

Just last July, I shot at a hartebeest that was facing me head on, at less than 100 yards. I was using a 7mm Rem. Mag. Just as I broke the shot, the animal bolted to the right, and the bullet, instead of striking him sqare in the chest, hit him in the left rib cage and raked through the left side of his body. The movement of this animal--which neither I nor any other hunter could have predicted or controlled--resulted in the bullet striking him several inches to the left of where I had intended, and this at less than 100 yards!

Because he was close, and badly hit, I am happy to say that we were able to follow him up and kill him with another shot. But at the kind of range some of you are apparently willing to shoot from, the odds against your being able to make this kind of shot and recover any animal you may wound become astronomical. And please don't think that by substituting a broadside animal, a grazing animal, a larger animal or anything else that anything will change these odds. It won't. The ridiculously long range trumps all other variables.

I really hope that all of these responses are just bravado and that you guys don't really take these kind of shots in the field. I'm not arguing that, under perfect or near perfect circumstances, it can't be done. People have done it. But that isn't the point. The point is that, as a matter of sound, ethical hunting policy, people just plain shouldn't do it--regardless of how good they are, or think they are.

I wonder whether the accomplishments of military snipers are what inspires someone to want to shoot at a game animal at very, very long range. If I am justified in shooting a human being, I don't owe him the consideration I owe a game animal. With the human, we just need to make him unable to fight. With the animal (elk, coyote, or groundhog), we owe him a humane death. The animal did not choose to play our game.

H. C.

I agree with some of the posters that talk about those who send a LOT of lead downrange at long distance for years on end, they get better than average. I watched a guy test firing his hunting rifle offhand while he was waiting to move on back from the 300 yard line.

YES he was sighted in, and any elk at 300-500 yards was easily his if he wanted to take the shot and the animal continued to do whatever it was when his brain told his body to pull the trigger.

If someone will give me the BC and velocity for the 378 I will run it thru the calculator and post the results. Energy being the least inportant factor for most shooters, or maybe I'm wrong and it is the most important, since more energy is equal to MORE recoil and most folks I watch don't shoot enough to tolerate recoil.

Like Clint Eastwood said in the movie, "A man has to know his limitations."

After that we each shoot at the distance we can always handle and enjoy the hunt!

LouisB

Mrlexma

Quote:

Just last July, I shot at a hartebeest that was facing me head on, at less than 100 yards. I was using a 7mm Rem. Mag. Just as I broke the shot, the animal bolted to the right, and the bullet, instead of striking him sqare in the chest, hit him in the left rib cage and raked through the left side of his body. The movement of this animal--which neither I nor any other hunter could have predicted or controlled--resulted in the bullet striking him several inches to the left of where I had intended, and this at less than 100 yards!

Bad idea... Didn't it occur to you that the animal could have been watching you? I learned long ago that animals have eyes and a quick movement by the hunter will cause them (in many cases) to make a similar quick movement. I believe the hartebeest saw you shoot and thought "I'd better get the hell out of here right now!" I'd have though you'd have learned to avoid this type of novice style mistake. 100 yard flight time is about .1 second (thumb rule), hartebeest reaction time is apparently less than .1 second. (Store this away, it's useful info for you.)

BTW I don't practice, zero or work up loads from a bench...it's all done from the same position I shoot long range...prone. I also don't hunt solely long range, it's an option I have.

It's apparent that you have little experience in what you're trying to discount. I'd say long range hunting and several aspects of your range hunting are still outside your realm of experience. Let me offer a tip... don't shoot at animals that are looking at you when it's near dusk or while using anything that creates a large dust signature or smoke cloud (black powder)...they tend to flinch or move a bit to get a better look and possibly to prepare to flee. It's far better for them to be concentrating on something other than the shooter when you send a round at them.

tasunkawitko

Add your name to the list of folks that don't know a lot about what they're trying to discount.

Hunting rule: When the shot can be made, take it.

I was curious what the accuracy of range estimation does to your chances of bagging that elk. I plugged a few numbers into my computer. I used a hypothetical cartridge firing a bullet with a ballistic coefficient of 0.5 at a muzzle velocity of 3400 fps (let's say a hot 338 for example):

Between 1000 and 1025 yards, the bullet drops an additional 14 inches. So if the elk is at 1025 instead of 1000, you hit 14 inches low with this very hot, flat-shooting setup.

Of course, the true situation is worse than that. Even though the reading on the laser rangefinder is in 1 yard increments, the precision of measurement is far lower at long ranges. If you have a Leica Rangemaster 1200 laser rangefinder, for example, the error is +/- 5% at ranges beyond 874 yards. In other words, the rangefinder will report a range that is off by up to 50 yards.

With the same hot 338, assuming the rangefinder is off by 50 yards and reading an even 1000, the bullet will drop 28 inches more if the true range is 1050 or 26 inches less if the true range is 950. The range finder can't tell the difference, but at least you have a good chance of making a clean miss.

I don't doubt that after firing a couple of sighters, a good target shooter can often get bullets into a circle approximating an elk's vitals. His sighters will tell him how much to compensate, and in any event, if he shoots from the same spot at the same target, he will have recorded the compensation in his notebook.

I do doubt that an ethical hunter goes into the field, estimates a 1000 yard range to an elk, and takes a shot at that range.

H. C.

david - add your name to the list of people who are full of shit.

everyone is a high master on the internet~~

This is really too much.

I apparently should have passed on a shot at a stationary animal at less than 100 yards. Clearly, only a novice hunter takes any shot at an animal that can see him while he is shooting.

Perhaps I should have raced backward 900 yards farther into the bush and taken the shot from where the animal couldn't possibly have seen me?

Please, post more targets and fewer idiotic arguments.

tasunkawitko: ditto.

As a suggestion, you doubters may want to go to Dan Lilja's (the barrel maker in Montana) web site and read his book that he has posted called "Longrange hunting."

He also has several pictures posted throughtout the book.

Check it out and you may see some equipment you have NEVER seen before.
These items and much more, the Longrange hunter has at his disposal.

Darryl Cassel

Next thing we will be hearing is they can do it with their J-frame S&Ws.

Tom

Point is, most here from what I have read, thinks it can't be done.
It can with the correct equipment.

Later
Darryl

darryl -

the issue isn't whether it can be done or not, the issue is whether it SHOULD be done or not. to a greater extent, the issue is whether or not it is hunting.

i can be persuaded on the feasibility 4- or 500-yard shots for big game. i don't really agree with it, and i would most likely not do it, even if i could, but i can see where other people have developed that skill and that there might be situations where such a shot would be necessary, or at least advantageous. my own problem is with:

a) the yahoos who think that they can shoot these distances or farther, even if they can't, and

b) those who believe that sniping an animal out from beyond 500 yards or so is really hunting.

if you have to set up a bench and an entire laboratory to shoot a big game animal most of a mile away, then you are no longer hunting. if you think you can shoot and hit and kill an animal at "long range" just because your rifle is capable of it and so are you when you are holding it, then you are deluding yourself. ditto if you think that your rifle is so magic that it can compensate for every single little variable that is involved.

none of what i have been saying applies to varmint hunting, which is a whole other ball game. those who compare varmint hunting at long distances to big game hunting are really comparing apples to oranges, and if they can't see the difference, then they are the ones with the problem.

[ 09-08-2003, 09:34: Message edited by: tasunkawitko ]