People who shoot game at such great distances are not hunters. To hunt is to stalk your prey, to match wits, to see who is the best on that given day. I do not condemn those that take such long shots, I admire anyone that can shoot that accurately, but to call them hunters is a slap in the face to real hunters.

Look I hunt deer every year with a bow and harvest venison with it. Closest shot 5 yards and I was on the ground. YES I can and do get close. I also have the option of going long if I choose to do so. I pride myself on a long string of one shot kills on deer with a bow, shotgun and slugs, and a rifle. And to have it said that I am not a hunter, just because I have the equipment, and the ability to harvest a deer at long range does piss me off big time. Seriously long range hunting takes every bit as much time and effort if not more. And trust me I have pasted up far more animals while long range hunting because the situation is not quite right than when hunting in a more conventional manner. For the simple reason there is far more that goes to the tought process when ranges get extended. And, hell no it has nothing to do with a Carlos Hathcock fantsy as one poster suggested.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.....RiverRat

[ 09-08-2003, 13:27: Message edited by: RiverRat ]

Good morning folks.

tasunkawitko

Nope, never made it to High Master, I got transferred before that happened but here's a scanned copy of my High Power Master Classification card. I shot High Power for about 18 months while stationed at Camp Pendleton, Ca. (guess I should have stayed a little longer to get the High Master card huh!)



Here's the personal award for 1st place 1000 yard service rifle, Onslow Memorial Match 1983.



I didn't shoot in any competitions between 1984 and 2000, I was then invited to shoot on a team and accepted for the one shoot/match.

Here's a section of the winner's flyer from the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships (CFSAC)(Precision Rifle matches) My score was 50 with 7V on a fig 11/59 target. (I'll try to find the score area sizes for you if you like...they're fairly small.)




Mrlexma

So far it appears you've posted about one screwed up shot and your ability to find a wounded animal. You have posted nothing concrete about why it's NOT possible to make accurate long range shots on animals, only your conjectures and misleading tidbits. You also incorrectly assume that animals shot at beyond some magical distance from the hunter can't be tracked...show some facts.



Accurate and precision long range shooting is not impossible or even terribly difficult...it does require practice, concentration, and some willingness to forget old habits.

I believe the big game trophy hunter should be prepared for the long shot, as the terrain allows. I don't particularly desire a long shot but I am prepared to take it under the right conditions and Yes, I have salvaged a few hunts over the years by making the long shot.

But my feeling is this .. although I marvel at what a good rifle is capable of and freely admit to a sense of accomplishment in making the shots, the actual kills are lacking, in some tangible way. I feel "detached", "removed" ... the kill all too impersonal, to reach for a defining term. Bottomline, I find it infinitely less rewarding.

[ 09-08-2003, 16:21: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

david -

my "high master"comment was out of line. please accept my apologies.

i'll try to stick to the issues from here on out, or better yet, will simply to agree to disagree with the "long range crowd" when it comes to whether or not it is hunting.

David King, et al:

Pause while Tasunkiwitko finishes wiping the egg off his face. But, to his credit, at least he was man enough to apologize.

As far as Mrlexma is concerned, I'll take Dave King's shooting over yours any position, any range, anytime. I am almost positive that he shoots more big game animals in a year than you've shot in your lifetime, make it 2 years and it is a near certainty.

I've been there, done that, and bought the T shirt on this discussion and, while my preferences are to shoot them closer, I have come to the conclusion that their long range hunting ability is just a different and more difficult set of skill levels than those used by the vast majority of hunters and that they have acquired them by hard work, substantial expenditures of time and money, and dedication to becoming better shots. The true long range hunter is completely different from the "magnumized" "there is hope while lead is in the air" crowd as it is possible to be and still use basically the same tools. We are all hunters and the internal bickering over methods is counterproductive.

[ 09-08-2003, 16:45: Message edited by: Gatogordo ]

tasunkawitko

Not a problem..these things get heated easily.


On whether it's hunting or not. I have heard some very thought provoking arguments about long range shooting and hunting. The one that sticks in my mind most is the "if it's beyond the critters sense of awareness" (or some such phrase). In other words if the hunter is sooo far away that the critter simply ignores the hunter when in full view or there is no physical method to alarm the animal then it's no longer hunting. This to me is probably the most delineating line of reasoning... I often wonder if I should give up the few critters (non-depredation) I take at ranges to 650 yards but then I also wonder "how close do I need to be to make it hunting once again", no clearly defined boundry.

Just to add one thing here...A 378WBY is NOT a LR round so to speak...

Two issues I have not seen addressed by the longe range shooting advocates here are:

1. Time of flight of bullet- As ranges exceed 300 yards and bullet flight times exceed 1/2 second, how do you know that elk isn't going to step forward and turn that heart shot into a gut shot???
2. How do you determine the effect of swirling winds on bullet flight? At 300 yards, with a bullet with a BC of .5 at 3300 FPS, wind drift is 2.3 inches, which is beginning to be significant, but you can live with it. At 600 yards, that same bullet will drift 10.7 inches, enough to turn a bullet that was otherwise perfectly centered into a wound. Do you longe range shooters have some way of doping wind in the mountains that the rest of us are not aware of?

One of the rifles I built years ago on a squared Remingtom 700 action, a #7 contour Douglas XX stainless barrel in .300 win mag stocked in a McMillan stock and a carefully honed trigger was just for long distance prairie dog shooting.

I've personally taken more than a dozen dogs at distances over 1,000 yards. I've confirmed the distance with both pacing it off and using a lazer rangfinder. Further, I'm very careful to shoot in the mornings when there's less breeze and no mirage from the heat of the day.

Sorry folks....that's fun...it's challenging...but it's not hunting.....this is pure shooting.

If others wish to call it hunting.....well it's up to them. I've only once in 40 years of hunting found a rest so good (under hunting conditions) that I could actually take a controlled shot at even 400 yards.

I held what i considered a foot over the back of a 4X4 whitetail with a .375 H&H 270 grain soft point and hit him perfectly in the center of the rib cage. The bullet had slowed so much that it didn't expand at all. It exited the same diameter as it entered and I was lucky enough to track it over 250 yards to find it.

To me there's a difference between shooting and hunting.

David King,

My sincere compliments on your shooting awards. You are clearly a much better long range target shooter than most.

Again I must point out, though, that sport hunting is not target shooting. In the hunting fields, the range to the target is not posted, there are no flags conveniently placed to gauge the wind and the target is not a stationary sheet of paper. Also, sighting shots are impractical, not to say unethical.

If all else is known and controlled, and that is a big IF, the chief difficulties with making a 1,000 yard shot in the bush on big game would be these:

1. The wind, in all its multi-directional, swirling and gusting manifestations.

2. In certain situations, mirage.

3. And last but not least, the possibility of sudden and unpredictable movement by the target animal.

This latter factor, when coupled with extended bullet flight time, can make an otherwise fatal hit into a miss, or worse, a wound, in a fraction of a second.

There are other problems, to be sure, but giving credit to you for your superior shooting abilities, I think that the ones I have listed would be the most problematic.

As for tracking, anyone who has had to do it will tell you that often--not always, but often-- immediate follow up is critical. An example is when an animal is wounded late in the day. Night, after all, does follow day, and I have seen some good trackers in my time, but none who could follow a spoor very well after sundown.

Even in broad daylight, sometimes you only get one look back from a wounded animal, or none at all, before it runs for miles and miles without stopping. Eland are famous for doing this.

Finally, never have I said that making a 1,000 yard shot on big game is not possible. I have no doubt that it can be done when conditions are perfect and the shooter has the benefit of great good fortune.

But, as anyone who has done any hunting at all knows, shooting luck is not always good. A distant gust or swirl or change in the direction of the wind, an ill-timed waver of mirage or a suddenly spooked and bolting game animal can ruin things when all else involved in a shot is perfectly known and controlled.

In simple terms, for these reasons, 1,000 yard shots on sport hunted big game animals are far too risky and should not be taken by anyone under any circumstances.

Fatcat,

You may be right that Mr. King shoots more game in one or two years than I have ever shot, although I have no idea how you profess to know this, since you don't know me from Adam and also apparently don't know Mr. King personally either.

But suffice it to say that I have taken 16 big game animals on two continents in the last year alone, and I have hunted for 30 years before that. Oh yes, included among last year's 16 were three of the African Big Five.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you long rangers out there, but the farthest shot I took at any of these animals during that time was when I killed a mule deer last year with one shot from a .308 Win. at 175 yards.

Final note:

I posted this topic half in jest, as an antidote to all the "I can kill 'em in the next county" nonsense I had seen on a couple of other posts. If I ever had any doubts, I am now dead certain that irony is a lost art.

I rest my case.

---------------------------------------------

"No free man is safe when the legislature is in session."

mrlexma

mrlexma:

You have to understand what irony is before you can declare it dead. Heading a thread "Idiots Willing to take 1000 yard shots on Game" with no further text is about as far from irony as most hunters are from true long range shooters.

quote:

---

Final note:

I posted this topic half in jest, as an antidote to all the "I can kill 'em in the next county" nonsense I had seen on a couple of other posts. If I ever had any doubts, I am now dead certain that irony is a lost art.

I rest my case.

---

You don't understand enough about the topic to even have a case to present. I rest my case.

PS: I was also right about how many big game animals D. King shoots in relation to how many you've shot.

Fatcat,

That was a hell of a well-reasoned refutation. You must be proud.

I don't rest my case. When faced with someone like you, I give up.

Mr King:
Congrats on the Master rating, and the 1000 yard service rifle award. Both are TOUGH to achieve. The smith that builds my F class rifles is a Distinguished High Master as of this past July. Four short years ago, I didn't know what High Power competition was let alone a Master or High Master. When he was rebarreling my worn out 788 Rem, he explained it to me. And to be honest, I thougth he was full of shit. He invited me to attend a high power match the next weekend. I went and I was in AWE of they could do. I started attending more competitions with him and his wife who holds the rating of Master. I learned so much from them and the other high power shooters. The high power shooters were so helpful. My hat is off to the high power shooters who can shoot off hand at 200, rapid fire at 300, and then slow fire at 600 yds. with a service rifle, or a match rifle and repetedly drill the 10 and X ring. Again congrats, and hold hard!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

[ 09-09-2003, 06:21: Message edited by: RiverRat ]

Gatogordo said: "about as far from irony as most hunters are from true long range shooters."

There's a message in there.

Mr. Holland, (and others questioning whether long range is "hunting")
What is a "true hunter", and what makes any of us qualified to judge?
An arguement can be made that if you cannot make your weapon with rocks, sticks and animal parts you are being unethical. If someone wants to put forth the remarkable amount of effort and money required to hit consistantly at long range, why not? Many hunters will never attain sub MOA, yet they have no issues with shooting out to 400 yards. These guys are trying to tighten a .5" group because they know it matters at long distances. Come on, there is enough fighting about the sport of hunting without in-fighting.

Your comment about "one shot kills" is not correct. While often times a "spotter round" is fired a hundred yards away from the animal or so (no suffering there), once the bullet is intended to hit the animal the percentage of one shot kills is almost without exception higher than the average spray and pray weekend warrior. Shooting an animal that has no idea it is being shot at also makes for less adrenaline, and will often cause them to have less suffering than a shot at an amped up animal.

Mrlexma

A few answers as I see it.

Originally posted by mrlexma:
David King,

My sincere compliments on your shooting awards. You are clearly a much better long range target shooter than most.

Again I must point out, though, that sport hunting is not target shooting. In the hunting fields, the range to the target is not posted, there are no flags conveniently placed to gauge the wind and the target is not a stationary sheet of paper. Also, sighting shots are impractical, not to say unethical.

Thanks

I only post these awards in an effort to show that I have some experience (verifiable) at shooting... There is no method for folks to know whether on not any info posted he is true..this is a small attempt on my part to show I know a little about marksmanship. I have a few picture of game animals I've taken but I have no method to show the setup and shooting conditions prior to the shot(s). Perhaps you will believe some of what I am tellng you based in some part on my truthfulness in marksmanship posts.

These things posted are not the extent of my shooting awards or experience, I have more time/experience shooting long range in the field that I do on an established "target shooting" range. In the field is meant to indicate no range markers (unknown distances), no wind flags, angle shots, off-hand, kneeling, shooting while laying on piles of sticks - rocks - briars, shooting moving targets to 600 yards, shooting in fog & rain & snow, 30 to 40 mph wind at distances to 960 yards, multiple winds, unknown (borrowed) rifles, last minute issued (unknown) ammunition.

When I hunt I carry the same rifle(s) I practice with, same loads in many cases. I shoot from a bipod if there is time to use it, if not I shoot sitting, kneeling, supported on whatever, or offhand. The distances I shoot game animals is dictated by several thing, same as with others. The primary concern is "can I kill this animal with one shot from this location using the available support (shooting position)?" I don't setup to shoot long range, I setup to take advantage of the terrain and conditions. If I can get a commanding view of a area and this view allows me to shoot to 650 yards I may take it, depends on the wind, weather and location of other game trails, obstructions, etc. Most of the game animals (well over 80% I'd say) are shot at distances inside 200 yards, the majority of the remaining are inside 450 yards...seldom do I shoot a game animal beyond 500 yards but I am prepared to do so if the conditions are correct.

As to the animals being stationary (like a paper target). There are times when the animals are in fact stationary, they have the option of movement at any moment but they also have traits that indicate their alertness and movement pattern(s)/cycle. I shoot depredation deer and spend a good deal of time watching them(deer), trying to understand what they're up to and generally enjoying the experience of being outside. They are fairly predictable and telegraph many of their actions and concerns. I don't believe the majority of hunters spend as much time watching deer (or other game animals) as they should...partially due to time constraints but also due to the nature of their encounters with deer (or other game animals). I won't go into these traits unless there is some interest.

As a note: Wind in the field can be judged in many ways, insects flight, the direction the birds perch on the wires or tree limbs, grasses, dust, leaves, trees, fog, known area conditions, shadows and sunlight (canyons and mountains), time of day, etc, etc.

If all else is known and controlled, and that is a big IF, the chief difficulties with making a 1,000 yard shot in the bush on big game would be these:

1. The wind, in all its multi-directional, swirling and gusting manifestations.

2. In certain situations, mirage.

3. And last but not least, the possibility of sudden and unpredictable movement by the target animal.

This latter factor, when coupled with extended bullet flight time, can make an otherwise fatal hit into a miss, or worse, a wound, in a fraction of a second.

There are other problems, to be sure, but giving credit to you for your superior shooting abilities, I think that the ones I have listed would be the most problematic.


If touched on a couple of your concerns already but will continue.

Animals do in fact move, I've mentioned that and you are well aware that they can move very fast on short notice. Some thought is given (by me) as to what the particular animals is all about, is it the lead(er) of the herd (more experienced) and exceptionally wary/jumpy. I often shoot the lead doe (she must drop in her tracks for this to be effective) and in the resultant confusion to elect a new leader I shoot several to all of the remaining deer as they seem helpless to leave the area without following someone in charge. Off track a bit but it's useful info for some I'd guess.


As for tracking, anyone who has had to do it will tell you that often--not always, but often-- immediate follow up is critical. An example is when an animal is wounded late in the day. Night, after all, does follow day, and I have seen some good trackers in my time, but none who could follow a spoor very well after sundown.

Even in broad daylight, sometimes you only get one look back from a wounded animal, or none at all, before it runs for miles and miles without stopping. Eland are famous for doing this.


Since this is apparently about longer range shooting lets talk tracking an animal shot at long(er) range. How do we find the spot where the animal was? We know where we were originally, we know where the animal was in relation to that spot and we know the distance...with a little practice it fairly easy to find the exact location (some folks leave a second hunter at the shooter location and that person directs the walker to the exact spot). If the animal senses no apparent danger even after being hit with the bullet they (animal dependant) may not move more than a few feet and die on their feet (chest/lung shots). This is sometimes not the case when large bones are hit, they sometimes leave the area completely if they live that long. I'm sure many folks have seen horses and deer for that matter being bothered by flies and other insects, they switch their tails, flinch their skin, bolt a few feet and lick themselves. They don't haul-ass for a mile and look to see what happened. This same insect bite type behavior is common to see when the animals are shot at longer range, they have no concept of the gun and bullet and are in no apparent danger (apparent to them)...only a stinging pain in the chest..bolt a few feet and lick the injury site....very common practice. Deer generally don't have a large range, water, food and bedding areas are close by...they probably won't run away from the area they feel safe/comfortable in...they do head for water in many cases and I've tracked many and found them dead in a small stream bed. I do a lot of tracking for other folks I hunt with, standard hunting season scenarios (archery, shotgun slug, rifle)

Finally, never have I said that making a 1,000 yard shot on big game is not possible. I have no doubt that it can be done when conditions are perfect and the shooter has the benefit of great good fortune.


I guess your correct...also note that I don't currently shoot game (non-depredation) animals beyond 650 yards but have in the past.

But, as anyone who has done any hunting at all knows, shooting luck is not always good. A distant gust or swirl or change in the direction of the wind, an ill-timed waver of mirage or a suddenly spooked and bolting game animal can ruin things when all else involved in a shot is perfectly known and controlled.

These things are the same for every shot, een 100 yards...we shoot when we feel it the correct time and the probablility is very high (all hunter types).


In simple terms, for these reasons, 1,000 yard shots on sport hunted big game animals are far too risky and should not be taken by anyone under any circumstances.

Your opinion and you're welcome to have it...it causes me no grief. Other folks are not of this opinion and I would hope you can feel a little less grief with them at some point in time.


You may be right that Mr. King shoots more game in one or two years than I have ever shot, although I have no idea how you profess to know this, since you don't know me from Adam and also apparently don't know Mr. King personally either.

But suffice it to say that I have taken 16 big game animals on two continents in the last year alone, and I have hunted for 30 years before that. Oh yes, included among last year's 16 were three of the African Big Five.


Gatogordo and I have had many discussions, never face to face but perhaps on my next trip through or to Texas. I have trelayed to him some of my experiences with depredation deer and hogs. I have shot many hundreds of deer, probably well over 400 or 500 and he has through time come to trust me on these numbers I'd guess.


And I'm sorry to disappoint you long rangers out there, but the farthest shot I took at any of these animals during that time was when I killed a mule deer last year with one shot from a .308 Win. at 175 yards.

Some of the best animals I've taken were far inside the 200 yard mark also...I have not had the pleasure to hunt in Africa, yet.

I hope this helps a bit and I'm pleased you took the time to read this.

Mr. Diplomat, err, David King:

While I see more deer than most folks, I'd appreciate your observations on movement, alertness, etc. I can always learn, hell, I've even come over to tolerate long range hunters.

Perhaps another thread might be in order, because I think your insights might provide some valuable information that might be lost to the average reader in this one.

TasunkaWitko

If I may, let me answer your remarks.

FIRST OFF MOST HUNTERS HAVE NEVER SEEN WHAT AND HOW WE DO WHAT WE DO. TO TOP IT OFF, MOST MAKE COMMENTS THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN USE TO HUNTING ONE WAY ALL THEIR LIFE. I TO HUNT ALL WAY BUT, PREFER THE LONGRANGE WAY. AT LEAST GIVE PEOPLE TO OPTION TO HUNT THE WAY THEY WISH EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T THE WAY YOU DO. YOUR NOT THE ONLY HUNTER IN THE WOODS AND MANY HUNT MUCH DIFFERENT THEN YOU, IM SURE.
WITH THAT BEING SAID, LETS GO ON AND ANSWER YOUR REMARKS.
SORRY FOR THE LARGE PRINT. It was done so you could tell what was answered by me.



darryl -

the issue isn't whether it can be done or not, the issue is whether it SHOULD be done or not. to a greater extent, the issue is whether or not it is hunting.
WHO ARE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER TO SAY, IF IT "SHOULD" BE DONE OR NOT? KILLING IS KILLING NO MATTER IF IT'S 50 YARDS OR 500 YARDS.
THERE SHOULD BE NO ETHICS WHAT SO EVER EVEN MENTIONED. MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE BOW HUNTING, I CERTAINLY DO. I ALSO LIKE MUZZLE LOADER HUNTING. IS THAT UNETHICAL TO STICK AN ARROW IN AN ELK AND LET HIM RUN OFF FOR AN HOUR TO DIE BEFORE YOU GO AFTER HIM? ETHICKS HAVE NO PLACE HERE AS LONG AS THE STYLE OF HUNTING ONE DOES IS NOT ILLEGAL.

i can be persuaded on the feasibility 4- or 500-yard shots for big game. i don't really agree with it, and i would most likely not do it, even if i could, but i can see where other people have developed that skill and that there might be situations where such a shot would be necessary, or at least advantageous. my own problem is with:
HOW CAN YOU SAY 500 YARDS IS OK WHEN MANY HERE HAVE SAID THEY DON'T SHOOT OVER 175 YARDS. ARE YOU BEING UNETHICAL NOW? HOW CAN YOU OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER PUT A YARDAGE ON A GAME ANIMAL AS PER HOW FAR IT SHOULD BE SHOT?
JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE HUNTED ONE WAY ALL YOUR LIFE DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOMEONE WHO HAS THE EQUIPMENT AND PRACTICES ALL YEAR TO BE ABLE TO PUT A BULLET INTO A BIG GAME ANIMAL AT A LOT FURTHER THEN 1000 YARDS, SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HUNT HIS WAY. WE ARE NOT BOTHERING YOU OR ANY OTHER HUNTER FOR THAT MATTER. WE SHOOT INTO AREAS THAT MOST FOOT SOLDIERS WOULDN'T GO ANYWAY.

a) the yahoos who think that they can shoot these distances or farther, even if they can't, and
ANYBODY WHO DON'T PRACTICE ALL YEAR SHOULD NOT BE OUT THERE TRYING EXTREME LONGRANGE SHOTS
b) those who believe that sniping an animal out from beyond 500 yards or so is really hunting.
IT IS HUNTING. JUST ANOTHER WAY THAT YOU ARE NOT FAMILAR WITH, AS MOST ARE NOT. TJHEY HAVE NOT SEEN WHAT WE HAVE TO USE TO MAKE THOSE SHOTS. CALIBERS MOST HAVE NEVER HEARD OF, RANGEFINDERS THAT MOST CAN'T BUY, OPTICS THAT YOU CAN'T BUY AT THE STORES OR INTERNET AND MANY OTHER ITEMS.

if you have to set up a bench and an entire laboratory to shoot a big game animal most of a mile away, then you are no longer hunting.
I DISAGREE WITH YOU, SOME OF OUR RIFLES ARE HEAVY CARRY GUNS WITH BY-PODS THAT WE CAN GO OUT ONTO POINTS OVERLOOKING DEEP HOLLOWS.
if you think you can shoot and hit and kill an animal at "long range" just because your rifle is capable of it and so are you when you are holding it, then you are deluding yourself. ditto if you think that your rifle is so magic that it can compensate for every single little variable that is involved.
WE HAVE TECNIQUES TO OVERCOME MOST OBSTICLES OR WE "WON'T" SHOOT.

none of what i have been saying applies to varmint hunting, which is a whole other ball game. those who compare varmint hunting at long distances to big game hunting are really comparing apples to oranges, and if they can't see the difference, then they are the ones with the problem.

APPLY VARMINT HUNTING TO WHAT WE DO BUT, IT IS AT A MUCH LARGER AND FURTHER SCALE.

SORRY THE TYPE IS BOLD. I DID IT TO QUOTE YOU AND ALSO TO ANSWER YOUR REMARKS.
THANKS FOR ALLOWING ME TO ANSWER YOUR REMARKS.
DARRYL CASSEL

[ 09-10-2003, 06:44: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

David King,

I appreciate your thoughtful and considerate response.

You make a strong case that someone whose skills are highly developed can successfully reduce (although, I think you would have to admit, not entirely eliminate) many of the risks inherent in long range shooting.

As you point out, some of these risks are irreducible and are present even in short range shooting. But no one, I hope, would disagree that the longer the range, the greater these risks become. In my view, when big game is in the crosshairs at �long range� these risks become too high to warrant taking the shot�even if the best marksman on the planet is behind the rifle. I don�t think that people disagree with this view; rather they disagree about what constitutes �long range.�

To be provocative�in response to some ridiculously naive posts elsewhere on this same general topic�I specified 1,000 yards as this �long range� distance and advertised for idiots willing to admit that they attempt such shots on game. The irony�although it may have escaped some�is that I have had so many takers. Of course, not all of these have proven to be idiots. In fact, many of those who have posted on this topic in support of long range hunting, and you are obviously among them, have responded with intelligent and spirited discussion, and I hope that neither you nor any of these others takes offense at my provocation.

For nearly all sport hunters, myself included, taking a 1,000 yard shot in the field at a big game animal should be unthinkable, and even any shot in the 3-400 yard range should be the exception and not the rule.

For the fractional few who may have the requisite skills, I would hope that they would consider all of the risks (which have been amply covered in prior posts), and pass on taking such shots, even if they have been fortunate enough to make them in the past. Then they can experience what is for me the greatest pleasure of hunting, which is, to paraphrase Jeff Cooper, getting as close to their animal as they possibly can, and then getting closer.

Thanks again for both the tone and substance of your response.

Where does one buy that T-shirt that was mentioned above?

As far as long range hunters not being considered hunters; unless you're sneaking up and putting your deer in a choke hold until he keels over, you're all cheating!!!

Len:

I'm not sure of a current source, but it is paid for with a well cooked crow that we have eaten....

The point that many people seem to miss is that a 1000 yard shot to a prepared and knowledgeable long range hunter is probably less difficult FOR THEM than a 300 or even many 200 yard shots are for many hunters. Sure, the conditions and the animal behavior have to be just right, but that is true for most ethical hunters at any range. Whether a hunter wants to make the very considerable committment of time and money involved to learn how to make such shots (or to learn that they can't ) is a decision that each has to make on his own. The ethical choices are their own as well.

I came to this conclusion after arguing the other side rather vehemently, but upon considerable reflection and after more discussion of the topic at length with Mr. Diplomat (David King), I have realized that my initial reaction was based on at least 2 false concepts; a--that long range hunters were not hunting or ethical and b--that I was somehow the arbiter of what someone else can legally do in the field.

Where many people get confused is the vast difference between Long Range Hunters who KNOW they can make the shot,and won't take it without that high degree of certainty, and the larger group of slob hunters who "hold over a couple of feet and hope". THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE, and if you don't think so, step up and shoot with a LRH sometime.

Which brings up to another point that is often mentioned, that the ability of LRHs to make that far shot causes poorly prepared hunters to imitate them. It may, but that is not the LRHs fault, no more than it is the gun's fault that a criminal decides to misuse it.

I have nothing against any type of legal hunting. I may not care to hunt in a particular way or with a particular weapon but that's neither here nor there. I do know one thing, however, there is no greater thrill in hunting than beating the quarry at his own game when he knows you're around.

I dont think its really hunting unless you run them off a cliff, or you could use a spear if there is no cliff--now that is real hunting, not this high velocity arrow, or bullet stuff.



kind of along the same lines of limiting the range and use of technology to allow it to still be called hunting.

i'll bet if the good ole boys from the 19th century saw a 4x scope on a lever gun they would probably claim it wasnt really hunting either.

available technology and skills to use such is changing all the time, why stick with technology that we've had for 50yrs or more when there is new stuff out there that can allow some people to connect at increasing ranges??

flint-> spear-> bow-> muzzleloader-> rimfire-> centerfire-> bigger, longer, optical centerfires

just because a few people are further ahead technologically and can use the tech. to its full potential, doesnt mean it is wrong and "not hunting," just the next step in a dynamic progression.

technology changes, and so do limits--you set your own limits, i'll set mine.

i can just see all the boys with their lever guns bitching when the first variable scope came out--thats not hunting if you gotta dial up the scope to see him!!

thats all from me,
JB

To All,

Since there are far to many posts on this topic to respond to specific posts, I will just give a general opinion of the subject.

I do alot of long range(600-1200 yrd) varmint hunting all spring, summer and start of fall. I do even more conventional range(0-600 yards) varmint hunting during those same times.

THe tools I use for these types of hunting are more in line with big game cailbers then true varmint rounds.

This summer I used one rifle almost solely for my extreme range varmint hunting. It is a puny 6mm-284 built on a Win M70 Heavy Varmint action.

It wears a 30" stainless, fluted Lilja barrel with a 3 groove rifling pattern cut at 1-8" twist.

THis rifle is designed to shoot the 107 gr MK bullets and does so at 3500 fps using 54.0 gr RL-22 over a CCI-BR2 primer.

This rifle is not accurate, its AMAZINGLY accurate. 500 yard groups of 1" are not uncommon and if a 500 yard group opens over 2" I know the fault is mine.

Just to give you an idea how accurate this rifle/load/drop chart combo is in the real world, I'll tell you about some range time I had a few weekends ago.

After several weeks of fine tuning the drop chart and setting the mil-dot scope up with this chart, I headed to our open range and set out four one gallon milk jugs full of water out at a variaty of ranges, also at a variaty of shooting angles from my position, nothing extreme but I would say within 10 degrees from highest to lowest, very similiar to shots a hunter might get in open rolling hill country here in central Montana.

At my shooting position on the rim of an overlooking hill, I set up the 6mm-284 on its Harris bipod with a small bag under the rear of the rifle for support.

I ranged the first and closest jug, the Leica 1200 read 817 yards, this range was looked up on the drop chart which is broken up in 5 yard increments so I selected the 820 yrd listing.

The wind could just barely be felt on my right cheek so I held the dot center on the jug and on its right line.

At the shot the jug simply buckled and rolled down the hill. First shot of the day and a hit at 820 yards, felt pretty good about things.

I ranged the second jug, the reading came back at 846 yards. Again I looked up the listing for 845 yards and found the correct aiming point in the scope. I could feel no wind at this time so I held dead center and pulled the 8 oz trigger.

I could see the 107 gr pill land center on the bottom 1/3 of the jug and it flipped a couple feet up the hill.

Two for two!

The next jug measured a more serious 941 yards. I looked up the hold and noticed the wind was now quartering toward me from my left at what I quessed was 3-4 mph. I held into the wind one MOA and let the rifle go. This time the hit was on the left 1/3 and bottom 1/3 of the jug.

Three for three with the longest shot to go. This jug ranged in at 977 yards. I set the rifle up and with no wind I held center again. THe bullet could not have landed any more center if I had been 100 yards away.

Four for four at different ranges, with different wind and at different shooting angles.

The weekend before I had connected two for two on chucks at 713 and 715 yards.

The weekend after I was one for one on another chuck at 1055 yards.

The point I am trying to make is that consistent hits at extreme range are very possible with the proper practice, equipment and shooting skill.

Also let me say that I shoot varmints at extreme range, NOT BIG GAME!!

Do I feel I could hit a deer at 1000 yards and beyond with a hit placed well enough to ensure a clean kill, I know I could but there is more at risk. And frankly, I have no need to shoot at these ranges.

I would however shoot at 600 yards if conditions were correct with my 300 RUM which is fully up to the task at 600 yards.

The comment I read about the 378 WBY being one of the best long range rounds around, PLEASE!!!

In comparing the 378 WBY firing a 300 gr bullet with my 300 RUM firing its 180 gr bullet, things really are not even close at extreme range.

The big 378 will hit a bit over 2900 fps with a 300 gr bullet. My 300 RUM will drive the 180 gr pills to s tick over 3400 fps with max loads.

Here are how they compare at 100,200,300,400,500 and 600 yards with a 300 yard zero:

378 WBY 300 RUM RUM Advantage
4.2 2.6 1.6"
5.0 3.2 1.8"
0.0 0.0
-12.0 -7.7 4.3"
-32.2 -20.3 11.9"
-63.2 -38.7 24.5"

SO at 600 yards the 300 RUM is over two feet flatter shooting then the 378.

Now you will say that one can not compare the energy of the 378 with the little 300 at any range,

SORRY AGAIN!!

At 400 yards the two are basically equal:
378 has 2762 ft/lbs
300 has 2765 ft/lbs

At 500 yards?
378 has 2270 ft/lbs
300 has 2413 ft/lbs

At 600 yards?
378 has 1861 ft/lbs
300 has 2097 ft/lbs

And the 300 just keeps pulling away from there.

Personally, I place little stock in kenetic energy, but I do feel a big game bullet needs to expand to be able to cleanly harvest game with only a soft tissue impact. This is where the 378 really goes bad at long range.

Lets look at muzzle velocity at long range. Most soft nose bullets need at least 1900 fps to expand to any reasonable amount. A premium bullet is closer to 2000 fps. Lets see how the 378 compares to the 300 in this catagory.

At 400 yards:
378 has 2037 fps
300 has 2630 fps (600 fps advantage)

At 500 yards:
378 has 1847 fps (most bullets will not expand)
300 has 2457 fps (+600 fps advantage)

At 600 yards:
378 has 1672 fps (no bullet expansion)
300 has 2291 fps (even an X bullet will expand)

I am not saying that the 378 is not an impressive hunting tool, it surely is for what it was designed for.

In the long range shooting world, it is a DOG, as is the 300 RUM. I am building a 338 Wildcat round now that will drive a 300 gr, .780 B.C. bullet to 3100 fps. If you would like to see how this leaves teh 378 in the dust I would love to give you those numbers.

Problem is that there are far to many uneducated marksmen out there saying things that are flat wrong in the real world of long range shooting.

It is also these shooters that spout off with no experience basis and give the rest of us long range shooters a bad name.

Agian let me state that I love hunting, bow, handgun, rifle, does not matter. I have gotten the biggest thrill hunting with big bore open sighted handguns the last few years then with any other type of hunting.

Do I think I could harvest a deer at 1000 yards with one shot, I know I could, but it is not for me. If others that have equal or better skill then I want to do it, so be it, if they can get one shot clean kills, this is all I care about.

Good Shooting!!!

50

darryl -

as i said in an above post on this or one of the other LR threads, we simply disagree on the hunting aspect of it. i don't doubt the ability, just the ethics. just cause i don't agree with it or like it doesn't mean that you're going to burn in hell or something. i would still buy you a beer if we ever met face to face, and imagine we could have some good hunting stories to share.

i know that i could learn quite a bit from folks like you and david king when it comes to long-range shooting, and i believe that you guys have done your homework and would make the right decisions in the field. my own opinions have no bearing (and SHOULD have no bearing) on what you call hunting.

fiftydriver -

good to see you weigh-in on this subject! i know from experience that if i get information from you that it is info that i can rely on, and that you are saying what you say from actual experience in the field and time spent developing the skill of shooting at long ranges. i especially like your separating TARGET SHOOTING and VARMINTING from BIG GAME HUNTING, and can easily respect what you have to say on this facet of the discussion. i know that my approval doesn't mean much, but hell, we montanans have to stick together!

you and i have a mutual friend (K) who lives in GF. we have gone around a bit on this subject, and i've come to respect his stand as well. he is prepared for the long shot, and knows exactly what is going to happen when the bullet leaves the rifle from the muzzle out to a thousand yards or more; yet, if i remember correctly, most of his game has been taken at distances less than 300 yards. having seen pictures of the game he has taken, and knowing the lay of the land in this area, conditions at that time of year not to mention the WIND!), i can say with confidence that he is a hell of a shooter and a hell of a hunter.

when it comes to the garden-variety yahoo with the latest booming-zoming rifle that he saw in gun world magazine, i shudder for what the game in america are going to suffer from. with you and K however, i have faith in your sincerity and commitment to developing the skill. basically, if the situation allows for the shot, you take it, and if you have any doubts, you don't. i am sure that this is most likely the situation with most of the guys here, it's the "wannabes" that i worry about. as you said, they give a pretty bad name to the sport, no matter what distance they are shooting from.

anyway, like i said, thanks for putting your 2�. a few of us get together now and then from GF and helena now and then for some shooting and other BS. sometimes in lewistown, sometimes in GF, and sometimes in helena. just want you to know that you and K are always invited.

take care....

ron