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Folks, I want to bring to your attention this outlandish article in TIME magazine. We all know that there are a handful of unethical people that make hunters look bad, but this article categoricaly states that many hunters engage in poaching. Write to TIME and make your opinions known. THANKS ! http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1670508,00.html | ||
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I wouldn't go so far to call the article outlandish, and I never got the impression you did about many hunters engage in poaching. However, after watching other antelope hunters hunt around me this past season, I think that the majority of hunters break the rules if they think that no one is watching. It may not be killing a buck and just cutting off his head to sell on the black market, but chasing them with trucks, shooting a friends, or high grading seems all too common.  MG | |||
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Madgoat, Perhaps I am too sensitive. I pride myself on hunting honorably and ethically. I come from a family of hunters, and we pride ourselves on conducting ourselves as gentlemen on and off the field. I was, and still am, put off by the tone of the author. This is an anti-hunting article if ever I saw one. | |||
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To say that the bear was "assassinated" was a typical "putting a human emotion" on the poaching act. World leaders are "assassinated" and to equate animals to human beings is just peta shit. Used to be 475Guy add about 2000 more posts | |||
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Was it bear season? | |||
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Nope. Earliest season is Nov 14-15. About only legal game on Sept 12 is migratory game birds and groundhogs, coyotes. | |||
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Don't think so The folks in my hunting circle are straight shooters  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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there is probably a small minority of hunters who have not broken a game law at one time or another knowingly or not. I know that were i hunt in AR plenty of meat deer get killed on kids licence's. plenty of people on powerlines shoot after legal time because theres ample light. here in SC plenty of does on antlerless deer remain untagged if they are cleaned in the field. plenty of people cross the property boundary were there is no marker or posted sign. im sure theres people who use the savage ML with smokeless if its against the rules. am i condoning things like poaching or spotlighting? NO! but if i buy an out of state licence and get two deer and my father still has 2 deer left on his resident licence then im still going out hunting. | |||
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KSTEPHENS wrote: "I know that were i hunt in AR plenty of meat deer get killed on kids licence's. plenty of people on powerlines shoot after legal time because theres ample light. here in SC plenty of does on antlerless deer remain untagged if they are cleaned in the field. plenty of people cross the property boundary were there is no marker or posted sign. im sure theres people who use the savage ML with smokeless if its against the rules." Since you are aware of these violations, I am hoping you have done the right thing and reported them. Those who are aware of but do not report game violations are actually condoning the illegal activity. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Well, it's certainly interesting to know that "Mr. High and Mighty Hunter Ethics" when it comes to high fenced properties IN OTHER STATES will knowingly break the law when it affects his hunting. Amazing. There are variations of this concept, but the true definition of somone's ethics can by shown by what they do when no one's looking or no one will know. Now we know. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Brad: I didn't see them correlate legitimate hunters with these poachers. I would not condemn the article but rather the people who do the kind of acts reported in the article. True, one can parse the words and disagree with some the writers terms but that is true of almost all articles written by someone who is not an expert in what they're writing about. It might be more helpful to write a letter and point out that real hunters condemn these activities as well and that many of these poachers are caught by legitimate hunters turning them in. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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you Tx boys are something else, i swear...  still wrapped up over getting your ass handed to you over shooting captive were did you read that i observed anything? I dont work for the DNR. do you pull over speeders? | |||
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because im not. im driving 13 hours to spend a week+ and paying for out of state tags and club dues. If AR wants to increase the out of state licence price AND reduce the nonresident limits thats fine. but my fathers tags will get filled. just like the people who bring 6 year old kids with them hunting and claim deer on the kids . the argument over the ethics of genetic manipulation of deer has nothing to do with this thread. if your not finished discussing your deer farms the resurect that post. if you want to talk about following laws to the T lets talk. let him without sin cast the first stone. do you ever speed? always use the turn signal? you obey all laws everytime? well then I applaud you Mr Kent. I trespassed saturday to retrive a deer for a 12 year old boy. he gut shot a doe and i blood trailed her. she crossed the unmarked and unposted property line and i followed her and drug her back to him and his dad. call the cops, dickhead. the property is owned by a lady in a nurs ning home. how the heck am i supposed to get permission? | |||
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Criminals (and that's what he is) always have an excuse....(out of state license costs too much, I have to drive too far, etc.). He's a hypocrite through and through. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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 texans. grudge anyone? pick and choose there son, pick and choose. you are confusing the arguments. but i guess thats to be expected sice you never had one. But party hunting/poaching robs from other people. You are killing animals illeagaly that somebody else would love to take leagal. That person that actually has a tag might not get a deer because you poached one for your father. i dont follow the logic. tags get filled. is it different who pulls the trigger? me or dad? theres only 6 tags. he flies and has no intention of killing more than 2 deer. i drive and can pack alot more out. so i put my first deer on his tag. I should burn in hell, huh?  at least im not gonna sit here and attempt to portray my self as the Christ.  | |||
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and you are THE LAW? who is the hypocrite. one who confesses or the one who denies. | |||
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but you dont turn yourself in when you speed. why not? if your such a stand up guy like you claim howcome the highway laws dont mean as much as the game laws? Oh i get it. because you had a spike in the back of the truck and could have gotten caught, huh? so turning yourself in was more of an act of self protection then wasnt it? pious prick. | |||
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thanks Judge Todd  | |||
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thief , liar , bully. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I'm not from Texas, and I'll agree with everyone who says you are a hypocrite on this one. I despise people who fill others tags. I hunt because of the challenge it offers me and I’ll be damned if I’ll fill or let someone else fill my tags. Where is the satisfaction in doing it myself if I let someone else shoot my game. Saying that, I have used my tag on animals that other people have shot before to help them out; I had a neighbor whose son shot two does with the same shot. He was young (16) and inexperienced and didn’t wait for the other deer to clear the one he was shooting. They called DOW and the Warden said that if I would put my tag on the other doe it would save them a fine. I wasn’t happy about it and let them know, but I did it. When I found out one of my coworkers was party hunting I got him to stop. He was applying for elk tags every year for him and his wife. She doesn’t hunt at all and he was filling both tags every year. I taught him that he could legally buy two elk tags by drawing one and purchasing one over the counter for the same season in the same GMU. He now gets 2 elk most years and does it on the up and up. KSTEPHENS you should practice what you preach or shut up! Just because you are paying for you and your fathers tags and driving so many hours, does not justify what you are doing. I’m sure if you ever get caught and use that excuse the Game Warden will not agree with you and your skewed ideas of hunting practices. | |||
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nope. ill take my Rx like a big boy.
what have i preached? you are confusing this argument with fair chase vs. canned hunting. how did you jump to that? you sure are a bunch of clean living SOB's. I'll bet yall even are 100% accurate on your taxs, too. pay state taxs on internet purchases? drive obey all the traffic laws? never drive after a drink? ect ect ect. cleaner than preaches sheets are you? | |||
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How about this?
Don't know what you call it? Sounds like preaching to me.
Isn't filling someone elses tag against the rules? Your name isn't on that tag is it? Your hunt is done when you shoot your limit not someone elses.
Wrong is still wrong regardless of how much money and time you spent. Do you need some cheese to go with that whine? 
No, I'm not confused. I'm talking about party hunting. You just want to stay on that soap box. People make mistakes when hunting, and most of the time if they report themselves they get off with the minimum of fines. When they try to hide or knowingly do the wrong thing that is a whole different story. I hope you will get to learn this lesson the hard way. | |||
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Gatogordo, In author Diddlebock's 5th paragaph, he writes "The perps, according to game officials, are usually seasoned hunters from all walks of life who can afford customized Browning rifles, Leupold scopes and $800 Excalibur crossbows. They're wily and they're stealthy, like the deer stalker Nores apprehended a few years ago. He was trawling Saratoga, Calif., an enclave of million-dollar homes, in his wife's new Honda, a $2,000 rifle and low-noise ammo hidden under his kids' coloring books in the backseat. "Sometimes it's almost like an addiction with these guys," says Nores." It's pretty clear to me that he's arrived at the conclusion that these are just regular hunters. Notice how he gets the "million dollar home, new Honda, and $2,000.00 rifle reference in there too? This just isn't an anti hunting piece, he's exploiting the current class envy phenomenon as well. Lot's is written here, and not too subtly I might add, between the lines. | |||
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Brad, I agree that the article is not well written, but it is hard to poke holes in the author's premise when we have a person on this very thread defending his right to poach. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Brad: I'm not going to get in a big argument about this, I think the article is reasonably fair. The fact is the poachers mentioned are probably mostly seasoned hunters (not so sure about the initial bear, of course). I don't reach your conclusion that the author concludes they are regular hunters, anymore than a multiple DWI recipient is just a social drinker. One is doing something illegal, one is not. I think the "Honda" bit may have been an effort by the person quoted to illustrate the lack of necessity for this poaching but that's a subject that is open to interpretation. At least in much of Texas, the REAL poachers are incredibly good hunters, both day and night. The old timers used to do it to feed their family and sell the meat. I'm not excusing them, that's just a fact, and they basically wiped out the whitetail population while they were at it. Now, we've got a new generation, fortunately very few in numbers, that specialize in going on big ranches and poaching BIG whitetails, taking the heads, and selling them. Why anyone would pay thousands of dollars for a deer head and then claim it as their own is beyond me, but many people do it. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gatogordo, You and others here have made some great points. I appreciate other's point of view, and the fact that we have this wonderful forum that allows us to engage in healthy discourse. Thanks for sharing, and good hunting. Very best regards, Brad Starcevich. | |||
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Party hunting for deer in gun season is legal here in Wis. Were we smart enough to get that dumb law changed. I really see no harm in filling anothers tag as long as the tag holder agrees. | |||
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I hate to say it, but the article is probably accurate. I've seen other articles by game law enforcement departments that stated that the illegal kills are equal to illegal. During hunting season, I hear gunfire almost every night. | |||
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neither do they. they want to make issue of it over another seperate argument on canned hunting and are tring to find a chink in my armour. either that or they are perfect and do no wrong. | |||
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I will not say that I'm either. I will not however try to justify publicly that I'm right by doing something that is Illegal. The problem is if you start justifying to yourself that it is all right to party hunt when you know it is illegal where you hunt, then how long before you justify other illegal acts. If you want to party hunt then go to a State where it is legal; maybe get p dog shooter to take you on a hunt. KSTEPHENS I'm sure you are not subsistence hunting when you are buying non-resident tags and hunting out of State. You should be happy with your limit and go home. You are just after the thrill of the kill if you can't be satisfied with your limits. This is why I can agree with everyone else on this post who says you are a poacher and a hypocrite. What kind of example are you setting to young hunters? You can't have everything your way this isn't "Burger King." You have forgotten that your hunting is a privilege and not a right. | |||
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SAMSON LAW To get back to the orignal intent of this post, I think more States should inact something similar to what was done here in Colorado for poaching. I'm not sure that the even these fines are enough. http://estes.on-line.com/samson/doesthe.htm
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I, admittedly, only scanned through this thread after it became a name calling pissing match, BUT ---I never saw anyone mention the Restaurant Owner FEEDING the bear out of her dumpster. It would seem she continued the practice to draw in customers for the "show!" In most states this would be illegal in itself and then the Game & Fish (or DNR,etc) would have to relocate or destroy the offender ! If a day goes by when you don't learn something - it was a Total Loss! | |||
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Can't believe TS hasn't put on his cape and flown in for the rescue! | |||
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how ironic, MuyMaricone. i was just about to reply to this:
my comment on that is: thank God AGAIN that i live in montana, where hunting is a constitutionally protected right - at least, it was a couple of years ago. as far as i know that is still the case. if not, someone will correct me. as to the original post, i copied/pasted it to my own forum; i agree with brad that even though the hunter in the article was breaking the law, TIME's portrayal of hunters is what's important, and like him i am sure that TIME is no friend to the hunter...any hunter - poacher or not. as for party hunting, which is what this thread has devolved to a discussion of, i agree with what the state laws against party hunting are trying to avoid, but i also think that the unintended consequences are nearly as bad as the problem that they solve. i think that if more states followed winsconsin's example, it would be better for old folks, kids, wives, families that need and use the meat etc. but at the same time, i do see what laws against party hunting are trying to prevent, so i would have to say that i stand right in the middle. if a hunter accidentally shoots two animals with one shot or accidentally shoots an animal with antlers that are an inch too short or lacking one tine, and he honestly makes an effort to report it, i don't think that he should be penalized. of course, the question then is how to tell the honest mistakes from attempted poachings....i would submit that if a person has the balls to turn himself in, and if the circumstances of the situation spell honest mistake, then it should be determined to be as such. the meat from the mistakenly-killed animal can go to any one of a myriad of charities, or a waiver can possibly be issued to the hunter who mistakenly killed the animal, allowing him to keep it. if someone "accidentally" shoots a world-class trophy animal, then of course he should receive no recognition for it and should not be allowed to keep the trophy itself. who would want a "trophy" that is tainted by unethical hunting? if someone is actually and intentionally poaching, then throw the book at them. if they are shooting a doe to fill the wife's tag to feed the family, then that's a pretty gray area and i have to say that i would be pretty forgiving of the hunter who does that - hence, my belief that some sort of law similar to wisconsin's (perhaps clarified a bit) would be reasonable. to put it in a nutshell, i say follow the law, but also use your head. if a law needs clarified or changed, then work to do so in a way that benefits the hunters and the game. those are my thoughts, such as they are worth. i am flattered that you are so interested to know what i think on the subject, but i must remind you that i am married and heterosexual, so don't get any "muygrande" ideas about us taking long showers together in the wee hours of the morning. | |||
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I guess I should do a little more research before I make such statements. I stand corrected. After doing the research I found this web site that listed all the States where hunting is a Constitutional right. Don't flame me for the site it was the one that I found that listed all of the States together. http://www.serconline.org/huntandfish.html I still stand by my belief that if you intentionally break those State laws you should loose your rights/privilege to hunt.
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taylor - i don't mean to be confrontational - i am simply glad that i live in montana! (colorado (not counting the i-25 strip at least) is ALMOST as good  ) | |||
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tasunkawitko, I didn't find your post confrontational at all. I was just assuming, and we all know what happens when we start to assume things. I just didn't realize that there were any States that provided Constitutional rights about hunting. I was wrong on that and I'll admit it. | |||
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your right im not, as a matter of fact i gave almost all my deer last year (as did my father and another member) to a man from S LA who hunts with us. my point is this. I own a home in AR but cant purchase a resident License because my home state doesnt allow for dual residency. i pay state taxs and city taxs, i pay upkeep and maint and club dues to hunt. then i have to but a non res. license that in the last few years has gone both up in price and down in limit. my father, who holds dual residency because he lives in FL gets a res lic. he only takes one deer a year, two at the most. his tags are paid for and mine are paid for. the state has collected the revenues on 6 deer. and the meat is not going to go to waste. now if you REALLY have a problem with that then your a bit anal in my book. personally i think your just looking to jump on someone with both feet. likewise i could say that the only reason you reported that bull kill on the spike tag was that you ran a high chance of getting caught and were protecting yourself in such case. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by KSTEPHENS: "my point is this. I own a home in AR but cant purchase a resident License because my home state doesnt allow for dual residency. i pay state taxs and city taxs, i pay upkeep and maint and club dues to hunt. then i have to but a non res. license that in the last few years has gone both up in price and down in limit. my father, who holds dual residency because he lives in FL gets a res lic. he only takes one deer a year, two at the most. his tags are paid for and mine are paid for. the state has collected the revenues on 6 deer. and the meat is not going to go to waste. now if you REALLY have a problem with that then your a bit anal in my book." ---------------------------- The following explanation seemed appropriate for the above logic. No other way to justify using other's tags.... "Rationalizing is a dishonest substitute for reasoning whereby we set out 'to defend our ideas rather than to find out the truth of the matters concerned.'... You are reasoning if the belief follows the evidence--that is, if you examine the evidence first and then make up your mind. You are rationalizing if the evidence follows your belief - if you'll first decide what you'll believe and then select and interpret evidence to justify it." | |||
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