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One of Us |
Hypothetical... The Beast is Bull Elk, the distance is 300-350 yds. The rifle choice is a 300 WM that shoots 2.5" no, make that 1.25" @ 100 yds, or 308 win shooting 1/2" moa. Which would you prefer and why? | ||
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| one of us |
I don't hunt elk but since it's hypothetical, I'd take the 308 everytime. At that range, a well-placed shot would be important, especially once you account for wind deflection. The ~4+" margin of error in any one direction might not be that big of a deal up or down but if it's left or right you might be in trouble once the wind's finished with ya.  | |||
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| one of us |
I'd take the .330WM- at that distance the specified accuracy is certainly good enough to get the job done- I doubt that many hunters could manage 1.25MOA under field conditions anyway (out of breath from the climb, excited, resting on a pack, etc). I would choose the Win Mag as it would allow me to push .200 grain bullets fast enough to get the job done with reasonable trajectory. | |||
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| one of us |
How well does the 300 shoot at 200 yards or 300? Oftan people dont bother to find out, and with heaver bullets accuracy "stays" a bit better at longer ranges. Quite frankly there is little reason why a 300 wm or any other cartridge should be shooting 2.5" groups at 100. That said however, if the rifle shot a 6 or 7" group at the impact range on a elk, that wouldnt bother me so much. I would always pick a 300 over a 308, this has little to do with the power comparison, but rather a personal choice. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: I agree, that is why I edited the post and gave the WM 1.25" @100 yds which is NOT uncommon. Ill give my opinion after a few more replies but Im interested in YOUR points of view. These are the sort of choices that all hunters face when selecting rifles and chamberings and the variations seem to contain a lot of contrasting opinions with many good points. Thats what Im looking for. | |||
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| one of us |
I would drop the .300WinMag with my gunsmith as I left town with the .308Win and some 168gr Ballistic Silver Tips if that would produce .5 moa at 300 yds. 1.25 moa, if the .300 mag maintains that to 350 yds, is adequate for elk but does not come near my standards for a rifle to reside in my home. | |||
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| one of us |
The 2.5 MOA would be significant, but 1.25 MOA would be splitting hairs if you ask me. I'd still take the 308 because I like accurate guns and I'd just as soon avoid the excessive/unnecessary recoil (for an elk-sized animal at that range) but I wouldn't criticize someone for shooting the 300WM (especially if they were planning to @$$hole one ). | |||
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| one of us |
Since you cannot control target presentation at that range(except by waiting or flanking the target), I'll take the magnum with deep penetrating bullets. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
No contest: 308. I've yet to find any use for magnums 30 caliber and smaller, JMO. | ||
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One of Us |
Mature bull elk are friggin tough creatures... every advantage you can stack in your corner is worth having. The 300 WM is far and away the better cartridge and 1.25" accuracy is plenty good. That's not to say the 308 won't kill an elk... it will. However, elk are generally shot in the wide-open windy west... the less you have to concern yourself with drop and drift figures the better. As Jack OcOnnor once said: "a big gun is always better than a little gun provided one can shoot it." I'm not even certain how this question could be asked with a straight face... | |||
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one of us |
A 1.25moa rifle is plenty for elk @ 300. After all, it's the first shot that counts after that it will be pretty hard to shoot a 2" group on the side of your elk @ 350yds!  | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: LMAO! After looking at some ballistic info between a 308 and 300WM, I think my first assumption about the wind deflection might be suspect after all. A 180 gr 308 @ 2500 fps would move ~8.5" right/left with a 10mph wind blowing at 90 degrees while a 180gr bullet @ 2900 fps from the 300WM would move ~7" right/left at 300 yards so the accuracy difference and wind deflection might come out a wash if the shooter could handle the recoil and didn't make any extra adjustment for the wind. If I had to choose which one would work best, I guess the best answer may be the one being carried by the guy who's been practing with it the most!  | |||
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| one of us |
Bullet selection have as much to do with success as the cartridge you choose. The 308 with a well constructed 165 grain bullet will harvest any Elk with proper bullet placement. I prefer my 300 Win mag since it affords me that extra margin of power the 308 case will not give due to it's limited powder capacity with the heavier bullet weights. Since I don't have a clue regarding your experience hunting Elk, I must assume your a knowlegable hunter. The 308 is one fine cartridge but falls flat with it's limited case capacity when bullet weights reach 180 grains or higher, especially on longer range shots. I would fine tune that 300 mag to reduce group size and use that rifle especially on those longer shots. My 300 Win mag will give me three shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards. | |||
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| one of us |
No contest. 300WM. 200gr NP or Grand Slam @2900fps. 1.25" versus .5 accuracy means nothing. Elk are pretty big animals. I've never gone hunting with a 2.5" rifle but I THINK I would still take it rather than the .308. Even with 2.5" accuracy, you're still hitting the "pie plate" at 350 yards. And, you're delivering half again as much energy. | |||
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| Moderator |
The .300 Win. Mag. for the simple reason that you may not have a broadside shot at that elk. A .300 Win. Mag. should drive a (properly-constructed) bullet into the vitals from almost any angle. George | |||
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| one of us |
I really love accurate rifles, but I would rather have enough gun w/ enough bullet to get the job done from any reasonable angle out to 350yds. The .308 might do this w/ a good bullet on a big elk, but I know carts. in the .300mag realm WILL do this. My pet .338-06 is a 1MOA on a really good day, but mostly 1.5MOA. It's a fussy rifle & I've tried rebedding, pressure points, etc. Someday I'll rebarrel, but it always puts the 1st shot on target, clean or dirty, hot or cold. It's my elk rig for shots out to 350yds. | |||
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| one of us |
If 350 yards is a long shot on critter the size of a elk you need more range time. I would kill that elk with the 308 or the 300 mag any day of the week. Each of the rifles are more then ready to kill it. The 300 mag is still a 4.37 inch gun at 350 even a 2.5 in gun is more then capable of killing that elk. The broad side killing zone on a bull elk is a big target. | |||
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| Moderator |
If 1.25" won't do it for you on an elk sized target @ 350 yards, you need some shooting instruction. The advantages in both trajectory and time-in-flight more than off-sets the 100 yards accuracy differential. Forget about an energy comparison at that distance, with 180 grain+ bullets. The various .300 magnums excell here. "YOU" = Hunter = General | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
None a 338 or 340, 358 norma mag or 9,3 would be mu cup of tea Elk/ moose or bears are impressed by bullet of with great SD / JOHAN | ||
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| one of us |
If I'm sitting in the field and have a very solid rest & choice between 2 rifles, I'd probably opt for the .308. However, if I'm starting out the door, the .300 Win will go with me everytime as 1.25" at 100 yards is accurate enough for 300 yard shooting in the field (or deer for that matter) and I'd opt for the extra oomph of the .300 Win Mag. The only caveat would be if the .300 Win Mag was an unweidly boat-oar of a gun, and the .308 was a nice featherweight, and I would be doing a good amount of climbing...then I'd take the .308. -Lou | |||
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| one of us |
I have hunted extensively with both the .308 and the .300 Win mag. Both my rifles were very accurate, I killed many Deer with each. When I went to Elk country I packed the .300 Win mag every time, and still would.  Good shooting. | |||
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| one of us |
Since you mentioned "hypothetical," and long range hunting, I would consider another caliber instead of those mentioned by you, and my reasons are as follows: If I was to hunt large game at long ranges, I would work a rifle around a bullet with the best BC possible, but only a bullet that would have the best SD possible, and perhaps around 250 to 300 grains in weight. This bullet would provide the heaviest punch possible at those "long ranges," since my intention would be not just to punch a little hole on game, but to kill it as fast as possible. I know that a .50-caliber bullet should work, but a rifle of such kind would be too heavy to carry afield. The obvious answer, at least for me, would be to build a rifle that would shoot a 250-grain bullet at 2,900+ fps, something that can be achieved with one of the super .338's. | |||
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| one of us |
This could get me some nasty replies. I could think of few worse modern cartridges than the 308 Winchester for shooting elk at 350 yards! Using a 180gr bullet 1/2 Moa accuracy is most likely to occur in the 308 Win. at 2600fps while 74-76 grains of RL-22 over a 180 Nosler will yield 3100fps and would shot 1 1/4 MOA in almost any dolts gun. While you certainly could hit the 350 Yard elk with a 308 Win. bullet expansion could get a little iffy below 2000 fps impact velocity. The 300 Win does not suffer from that problem until beyond 500 yards. Zero the 308 at 200 yards and your bullet will drop about 18 inches at 350. Get your target scope out and start clicking cause she's coming down like a brick! The 300 Win. on the other hand can be zeroed at 250 yards with almost no extra gain in mid range trajectory. Bullet drop is only 8 inches at the 350 yard mark. A true 1.25 MOA load will get you within 1.4 inches of POINT OF AIM of a true 0.5 MOA load at 350 yards. Introduce wind, parallax, or a mosquito fart into the equation and in a hunting situation it means less than nothing . The 308 Win. is a good target round...Leave it at the range or concentrate on the chip shots!  Jamie | |||
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| one of us |
The .300 Win Mag with a 180 grs Barnes X (of some sort), similar weight FailSafe or a 200 grs Nosler Partition. Why? Because that combination has worked extremely well for me on heavy game like elk over the years. Paper accuracy is a great thing, and we all rejoice when we achieve good accuracy on the range. But in the field, more modest accuracy is perfectly adequate. A lot (if not most) of the paper accuracy differences will disappear due to unstable field shooting positions, being winded from moving uphill or just plain and simple adrenaline levels. Additionally consider that "accepted standards" for what constitutes an accurate rifle have risen quite dramatically over the last years. When I first got into rifles and hunting maybe 15 years ago, a 1 MOA gun was something to behold and dream about. These days, the "dream numbers" are closer to .5 MOA. Yet, 10-15 years ago, people made exactly the kind of kills (300-350 yds elk) we are talking about here, and probably no better or worse than they do today. Paper accuracy is a great thing, but don't assume that performance on the range will equal performance in the field! This applies to bullet selection even more than case size. When all that is said, cartridge selection should primarily depend on what we can shoot well. Better shoot a .308 Win that you are comfortable with, than a .300 Win Mag that makes you flinch. If that is not an issue, the .300 Win Mag is the better caliber for the task at hand. - mike | |||
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| new member |
I'm a newbie to all of this so please don't slam me too hard... This thread was so interesting to me that I decided to become a forum member. Unless you've got the scope zeroed at more than 100 yards it seems a 308 is gonna be kinda difficult to use since it'll hit nearly 25" low at 350 yards. A 300WM will hit nearly 18" low if zeroed at 100 yards. That's a pretty big improvement, and isn't that the reason the magnum cartridges came about anyway? A 10mph crosswind would make a difference by a few inches less with the magnum as well. My only two good rifles are a 308 and a 300WM, and I would take the 300WM for that shot. I bought the 300WM specifically for long shots on very big game and look forward to using it for that some day. | |||
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| one of us |
The accuracy advantage of the 308 is washed out by the flatter trajectory and the 300's ability to buck the wind. It also has almost a third more energy. Elk are tough; if the recoil doesn't bother you shoot the 300. If it causes you to flinch your better off with the .308. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: That's it in a nutshell......especially the part about whether or not you can really handle the recoil from the 300WM. IMHO, there are a hell of a lot more "flinchers" out there then there are in here!!! | |||
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| One of Us |
Wow! I didnt expect such a lop sided consensus, but maybe I should have. But thanks for all of the replies. Did I read somewhere in here that a 308 will drop 25" @ 350 yds???? Good lord! What are you pushing in that thing 220 grn RN's? Its true that either cartridge will get it done and in SOME cases the mag will do it better. There are a lot of elements of this "Hypothetical" that I deliberatley left unmentioned because I wanted to see what people look at first in such a situation. For some it was velocity, others penetration and still others mentioned wind deflection. George nailed the bottom line facts of this IMHO when he said "the shot might not be broadside." But still, the 308 would be my choice simply because it is the one I personally would be more "confident" in and if it were not either broadside or frontal, I wouldnt take it. Quote: Let me try to answer that question with another O'Connor quote, "What bugs me is to have someone come up to me, fix me with his glittering eye, and tell me that only very powerfull cartridges with large-caliber heavy bullets should be used when hunting Elk. That is simply not so. A good shot with patience and judgment is well armed with about any big game cartridge from a 30-30 up. The poor shot, the excitable man, the person without judgment would be inadequatley armed with a 416 Rigby. The ideal rifle for anyone is the rifle the hunter knows, has shot a lot, has killed game with, and in which he has perfect confidence!" Just to be sure Im not misunderstood, Im not suggesting the 308 is a better choice, only that it would be MY choice, and I would not feel undergunned with it. Place a 165 grn pill with a MV of 2800 fs in his lungs and he is not long for this world. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: A wash! Not exactly. The roughly 2" more drop the 308 would have is only going in one direction and it is easily compensated for. The extra 3+" of spread that the other rifle will have @ that distance could go anywhere with 6+" of drop to boot, AND human error in the field at that distance is just as much a factor as wind deflection if not more. Maybe this is splitting hairs, maybe not! We make our choices and live with them. | |||
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| one of us |
You can't start factoring in human error. Then you have as many different scenerios as there are shooters. Also, one poster started going off about flinching. Would all the flinchers please hold up your hand. Now let's add earth tremors and sun eclipses. And a PETA type slipping up behind you and popping a paper bag just as you squeeze off the round, and so on and so forth. We can "what if" this to death but: The simple fact is, under all circumstances, the .300WM is the better tool to get the job done versus a .308. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: The simple fact is, under all circumstances, the .300WM is the better tool to get the job done versus a .308. Only from an energy standpoint and that does not factor in "all circumstances". How many times has the phrase "bullet placement is paramount" been coined in this forum? The magnum is only superior in the hands of a shooter who knows his rifle and I would rather put in my range time with a 308, garanteed I will last longer at the range than the magnum shooter too. | |||
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one of us |
Quote: OK- I'll bite- Hypothetical- hummm... Well let's see- let's keep it simple- Partitions 300WM is shootin a 180@2900 -7.2"@300yds - 6.8"/10mph wind deflection .308 gets a 165@2700 -8.7"@300yds - 8.2"/10mph wind deflection even if the 300WM is holding 2"MOA then it simply gives you a better chance with harder angles on the elk than the .308 will- after all Wstrnhuntr did say it was one of them big beasties- a bull elk- big heart, lungs, liver- big! kill zone... remember that a whitetail has a 4"diameter heart with about a 12"vitals- the elk has about a 7" heart with a 20"vitals- gotta know how big all the parts are and where they are! Back to the rules- the two guns are sittin' by the door- you gotta pick one as you walk out the door to hunt. You don't get to take it to the shop and spend $700 on a tune up. You don't get to say no and insist on some monster magnum canon that you really don't need Woodhits is right about true shooting conditions but wants to shoot a 200- hmmm- not needed on an elk Nebraska loves that accuracy- but hey man it's a 20" target! smallfry is on the right trac... Ruffhewn wants to shoot a ballistic tip(varmint bullet but wants to leave the 300 for a tune up steve_y - KNOWS! 9.3x62 agrees with Nebraska Brad is worried about the wind- good point at 300yds- but it's still a 20" target Reloader66 wants to tune the 300- NOT- gotta shoot what's by the door I'm also a bowhunter so I'm going to want to get a lot closer than 300-350yds- Hell- I hunt with a recurve! or a 30.06 If I get to cheat.. I pick my 30.06 with a 165Partition at 2800 and I get to sneak up to 200 yds. shoot for the exit hole!!!! | |||
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| One of Us |
Wstrn... I re-read my post and see I come off a bit harsh (like an ass )... my apologies! I must have been tired and cranky! I've carried a 308 carbine in the past loaded with 165 X's... I never felt undergunned! However, I'm also realisitc. As the gent above said, the 300 WM is the better tool. It really is. I personally don't find it's recoil objectionable and in the field it's never noticed. If you sand-bag your rifle at the bench it's a pussy caat and it'll never translate into a sub-concious flinch in the field... I'm a big sissy and firm believer in sissy bags !Elk are a big topic. Your average three year old really isn't all that big. A mature bull is a different animal. Those are the boys I'm after. I like to stack every advantage I can in my corner! One fellow mentioned wind drift. My hunting pard miscalculated drift last week on our late season hunt and missed a 360 class bull. If he'd have been shooting a 300 Mag with a bullet of high BC at 3,000+ that bull would have been his... Also, thinking back over all the elk I've had opportunities on probably only 30% offered a classic broadside shot... the rest were pieces of elk and/or bad angle shots. Another reason I like the 338 WM! All the best... BA | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Quote: Just because more gun will work doesn't mean less gun won't. Personally, I would be happy to start using sub-8mm magnums if the corresponding standard rounds would stop being 100% reliable for me. If an arched trajectory was the hob-goblin of precision then 6mm BRs, 6mm-250s, and 260s would likely be much less common in competition (such as F-class). I also suspect that the 308 would not have been the military's choice for sniping. The results of penetration tests (some official and some of my own) and my own hunting experiences have gone a long way to convincing me that a few hundred fps here or a few hundred ft. lbs there are not really not worth fussing over. Any game animal has a range of cartridges that most would agree are "reasonable" (and ethical) choices for said game. Within this range of sensible rounds, bullet placement and bullet construction are the primary variables almost to the exclusion of all other variables. This may well mean selecting a somewhat different bullet for each. IMHO, bad shots should be shunned by the 300 WM shooter and the 308 shooter alike. An iffy shot is an iffy shot, whether you're shooting a 308 or a 300 WM. Moreover, while it is tempting to think that the 300 WM would obviously be superior on an iffy shot (say a quatering frontal angle), this is not unambiguous. It is well documented in penetration tests that standard calibers often penetrate MORE than magnums of the same caliber, using the same bullet. The terminal ballistic coefficient is lower, generally, for the magnum. This is good because it often results in a somewhat larger wound channel, but is bad because it often results in a somewhat shorter wound channel. On iffy shots, a bit more penetration is probably to be preferred, I would conjecture. Another issue that puzzles me a bit is how a bit more drop or a bit more winddrift in anyway translates to a lower probability of the bullet landing where it needs to go. If my rifle has a 6" drop I adjust my hold for a 6" drop, if my rifle has a 4" drop I adjust my hold for a 4" drop. Same with windrift. It seems to me that what matters is knowing my rifle's performance (via lots of practice), and has nothing to do with whether my rifle is a 308 or a 300 WM. Anyway, none of it REALLY matters... if it fills the freezer and the kill was humane, there really isn't much to argue about. | ||
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| one of us |
If everyone just stuck to the actual topic, most of this yap isn't relevant. I would rather take elk w/ a .338loudenboomer as close as possible, but the original question was .308 tack driver vs .300mag minuteofelk out to 350yds. It's implied that the shooter can shoot, he will place the bullet well & use a properly constructed bullet (read no SMK). The .300WM wins, hands down, everytime (& I am not a .30 anything fan). | |||
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| one of us |
Where I live, elk feed in the meadow below our house on a regular basis. Sooo, yes I'm an elk hunter. I don't care much for .300 mag's. and I do love the .308 Win. but I would take the .300 with heavy Noslers, or A-Frames. You owe it to the animal, and the kill zone on an elk is much larger than a praire dog. Weatherby thinks 1.5" is good enough for a hunting rifle, and I agree. (I personal use a .375 H&H with 300gr. loads, I can take any angle shot that is presented). Just the way I do it,,,,,, Good Shooting, Ma Bell | |||
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| one of us |
I'm not fond of recoil, would take the .308, although the stated accuracy of the other gun is good enough. My partner fell on his 30-06 and bent the scope, a couple of years ago. After an appropriate interval of consideration and cussing, he got out his 30-30 and killed an elk with it. We just switched tactics, left the canyon rims and hunted gully bottoms. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: Thats what I like, open minded objective opinions. Thank you all for making my point abundantly clear, everyone is so hellfire bent on flat trajectories and retained energy that nothing else seems to matter. The question was never "which one is superior", the question was "which one would YOU chose and why"? I now have your answers and thank you. Apparently I am an adequate cartridge refugee in an excess world. One last question, when Ray Alaska gets that 50 BMG elk rig operational are ya'all gonna follow suit? G'day all! | |||
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| <allen day> |
My answer was candid as I could make it and thus remain true to my experience as an elk hunter, and if my response didn't exactly sound properly "open-minded", fit your pistol, or otherwise serve to underscore you personal pre-supposed elk cartridge credo, well I guess that's just too bad - maybe you shouldn't have asked the question to begin with. Why bother to ask if you think you already have the right answer in hand after all? I don't consider cartridges like the .300 Win. Mag. to be "excessive" in the least bit for elk hunting, rather more like the ideal. I do consider rounds like the .308 to be on the light side. By the way, the .300 Win. Mag. is one of the most inherently accurate factory cartridges ever developed, and most good rifles chambered for this cartridge will cut that hypothetical 1.25" group size of yours in half, anyway, with good ammo. AD | ||
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