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One of Us |
Something I don't understand.....there seems to be this automatic assumption that a .308 will be considerably more accurate than a .300 Magnum. I think that if it's true, the additional accuracy is not useable in the field and that point was also well made. Here's my confusion.....I own three .300 Magnums and two .308s. All of my .300 magnums outshoot both of my .308s.....not by much, but they do. I seriously doubt that it's an automatic to assume the .308 will outshoot other .308 diameter cartridges and that includes the .30-06!!! | |||
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| Moderator |
Like I said, the carrying of heavy payloads at distance is precisely what the .300's were designed for and no better scenario than yours could be painted to portray its' intended application. | |||
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| one of us |
Good Thread | |||
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One of Us |
As Nickudu says the mag does have many virtues under these circumstances. Personally though, in the picture painted I would pass on the shot unless it was a good presentation reguardless of which of the two weapons I had. I believe someone else already touched on that point and a good one it is. Just for the record, In the real world my Elk rig has been a 30-06 and Ive never needed to use it @ much over 200 yds. This wasnt intended to be a magnum bashing thread perse, rather just curious how many brave souls still take on Wapiti with cartridges like the 308. Apparently its favor for such a task has been diminished despite "its" virtues. | |||
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| one of us |
I have killed a number of elk with both a .308 Win. and a .300 Win. mag. With both of these rounds, I have had elk tip-over in their tracks with one shot, and I have had them soak-up some darn well placed shots and run like hell before they piled-up. If I know that I am going to be routinely confronted with 200 yard plus elk shooting on a hunt, I�ll pack my .300 Win. mag. However, the vast majority of the elk that I have killed were shot at distances under 200 yards, and the .308 Win is more than adequate under those circumstances. CP. | |||
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| Moderator |
Yes, Sir! | |||
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new member |
Quote: I see nothing 'brave' about taking a shot at an animal at the ragged edge of your chosen caliber's capability. I see it as irresponsible. Most hunters (including the very experienced ones that haunt these forums) would be very hard pressed to maintain 1 MOA difference in group size that your initial post mentions under feild conditions. The accuracy difference in the 2 rifles is a non-issue. I want two holes in that elk, broadside or otherwise, and the 300WM will do it better in your scenario every time. It is the responsible and humane choice. The .308 would stay home. Good thread. | |||
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| one of us |
Amen. An exit hole makes it much easier to track an elk if they don't drop on the spot. I have rarely seen any animal drop right in its tracks. Shots to the head or spine will drop anything immediately, but I've seen a lot of mortally wounded animals run. A 300 has a much better chance of giving you an exit wound, especially at 350 yards. Almost any rifle can take an elk with proper shot placement at close range, but when you get to the 300 yard mark you have to be much more careful about shot placement and caliber selection. Has anyone here actually shot an elk at 350 yards with a .308? I shot an elk two years ago at 312 yards (checked with a rangefinder) with my 30-06. Shot placement was good, but not ideal. I shot it in between the last two ribs. The bullet pentrated one lung and did a small amount of damage to the second. I did not get an exit wound. Luckily I was hunting in open sage and it was fairly easy to find the animal. I'm not so sure I would have been as lucky if I had been in the timber. Looking back I should not have taken this shot, even though I had an accurate rifle, a steady rest, no wind, a standing broadside shot, and a rangefinder. I would have been in much better shape with just a little more power or at a minimum a premium bullet in my 30-06. I now shoot a 300 Winchester with premium bullets, because I dont like to take chances. The last two elk I have taken were under one hundred yards and I really didn't need the magnum, but its nice to know that I could take a shot (under the right circumstances) at 300 yards if I had to. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote:Quote: The "brave" poke was tongue in cheek, as the responses in this thread might make a newbie presume that one would have to be so to use such a cartridge to persue Elk. On the contrary, as many have testified here, it will put them down just as dead. More often than not, responsible and humane choices are judgment calls made in a moments notice taking into account numerous variables reguardless of the amount of firepower your packing. Like, where might the critter go if it doesnt drop and what are the chances of finding it? Do I have time to track a fatally wounded animal? And perhaps most importantly, can I make the shot count? This is where the line between responsible and irresponsible hunting gets drawn most often IMO. Any fool can make up his mind that he is going to "man up" and use a more intense cartridge to reap the benefits, but the results are not always a more responsible hunter. How silly would one feel in doing so and watching a boy with a girly little 308 take home the venison, because he was the only one who could hit the mark. ??   | |||
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WstrnHtr wrote: Quote: Well said... as I say in my signature- "Be a better hunter - Get a better shot" and with that said- I think I'll go shoot an elk with my 30.06 and wait till I get a responsible shot for the rifle & bullet that I'm using - I damn sure have to make that decision when bowhunting with a recurve! hey WstrnHtr- I guess all this discussion about the .308 &the 300WM makes a good arguement for the new 300WSM for elk hunting..  Now if Steyr just made one in the 20"stainless ProHunter | |||
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| one of us |
this was a good thread but it's getting kinda tacky now. bye bye | |||
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| new member |
Yikes! Did I wrinkle someone's panties? It was your hypothetical question Wstrnhuntr, If you didn't want differing opinions, why did you ask it? "The Beast is Bull Elk, the distance is 300-350 yds. The rifle choice is a 300 WM that shoots 2.5" no, make that 1.25" @ 100 yds, or 308 win shooting 1/2" moa. Which would you prefer and why" In the confines of YOUR presupposed conditions, I believe you are pushing the limits with your .308. Stalking closer, various bullet designs, shooter's ablility, NUMBER OF POSTS ON AR, etc. aren't part of the equation. If "moving 200 yards closer" is an acceptable variable to your scenario, I would then choose the .308. I don't dispute the .308's ability to kill an elk, it just isn't the best choice at 300-350 yard in my opinion. BTW, I often take my .270 elk hunting. Does that make me a brave soul? Maybe I'm kind of brave. When I feel like a pussy, I take my .300 Win. Everyone knows that ft/lbs is a perfectly acceptable substitute for accuracy (and penis size, and a full head of hair, and charm, and experience, and self esteem, etc.)  BTW, Why is the assumtion always made that one chooses a more powerful caliber to make up for poor shooting ability, or that it isn't possible to shoot more powerful calibers accurately? I don't get it. Regards. | |||
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An afternoon at the range reminded me of this thread. I was shooting up some left over factory 165g Rem 30-06 ammo and was trying to simulate some realism by shooting off of crossed shooting sticks. I was using the wide/narrow transition point in my duplex recticle for a 300 yd sight. The first shot hit 1.75� from point of aim and the second shot was just under 2� from POA. The third shot ended up about 6� from POA high and right which I�m pretty sure was because the recoil was starting to get to me. THAT is the reason I�d probably stick with the 308 (or in my case an 06). Knowing my own abilities and recoil tolerance I don�t think I can shoot that well with the type of improvised rest that I would have to shoot from in the field. Someone stated in an earlier post that we needed to factor out individual shooters ability or the variables would multiply into the imponderable. I must disagree with that, as the ability to judge yardage, dope wind and make a well placed shot outweigh all other factors IMHO. I know magnum users who shoot their guns often and well and for them I think their choice of a mag is a good one. I also know / witnessed magnum shooters who will not spend quality time at the range simply because their gun hurts them or the ammo is too expensive and they don�t handload. These shooters have no business taking long shots no matter what gun they use. During the above mentioned shooting session, an acquaintance arrived at the range and after asking me what I was doing, informed me that if my goal was to shoot elk at 300 yards I needed to consider a 300 RUM like his. OK fair enough. But, he then told me his hunting story of shooting an elk at 700 yards (lasered) with said 300 RUM. A quick look at some ballistic tables tells me that the RUM is nowhere near as powerful foot/ lbs wise at 700 yards as a 06 at 300. I guess the point I�m trying to make is that we all have to be honest with ourselves in terms of our abilities. As much of a no brainer as that sounds like I think few of us (myself included) REALLY have a good idea of what our abilities are. I�m working on it though. KevD | |||
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| one of us |
Either would probably get the job done but I have shot enough elk that at that range the 300 would definatly be my choice...A big bull elk can be a very tough animal at times. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: Hmm, seems to me like your panties are the ones getting into a wad. Sorry about that, didnt mean to upset anyone. Of corse I want differing opinions, even if they suggest Im irresponsible, have no business asking such a question or that my theories have no basis. Thats OK, its only the internet and the worth while responses more than make up for the not so usefull information. I concur that such a scenario probably is pushing the limits of the 308, then again we have stories of Elk running after being well hit with a 375 H&H so whats a guy to do? I also have admitted that the 300 Mag will undoubtedly have an edge in the knockdown arena, and I also readily admit that accuracy, accurate shooting and Magnum calibers can be had as readily as with any caliber. It was a hypothetical scenario! However, I believe that a few other "important considerations" have been brought to light in this thread that are too seldom reckognized, and only a few contributors seem willing to acknowlege "them". Can you tell me why?? | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: You are onto the very thing that made me start this thread. Too many sales reps and once a year shooters only look at a cartridges capabilities and not enough thought is given to the dude behind the trigger or time spent shooting the gun. Way too many guys in this fast food era get zeroed in at 100 yds with a flat shooter and think they are good to go. But its a whole nother world on the 300 yd range. I find this a disturbing trend. Magnum cartridges take a lot of heat for this but unjustly so, a potent and capable load is a good thing as long as the shooter is equally capable and likewise, the capabilities lesser cartridges get unjustly downplayed when they could be just the ticket. Most of the once a year shooters simply dont know any better, the sales reps should.. | |||
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| one of us |
Over the last 20 years I have guided hunters to, or shot myself, over 75 head of elk. I would strongly not recomend using a 308. A 30-06 maybe. I said I would not recomend it, but if it was the only gun he owned then we would do our best to get in close. We hunt on the edge of Riding Mountain National Park and that animal has to drop befor it hits the Park line. My recomendation would be a 338 winchester magnum or above. Elk can take a whole lot of punishment before they go down. | |||
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one of us |
Rays right as usual when it comes to Bull Elk! Shoot the heaviest bullet you can in the largest caliber you can shoot WELL! PRACTICE and hunt SMART!  | |||
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one of us |
If some of you can't handle the recoil in a 300 magnum then perhaps you should stay at home and watch hunting shows and talk about hunting on the internet. I can understand some people considering a 338 or 375 to be too much recoil for the average hunter but are you people serious? 300 Win Mags are pretty tame. I see kids and women shooting them quite often at my local range. Surely you can toughen up enough for a few shots at the range and a couple in the field right? I've killed a couple of elk with a 308 and although they both died within a few feet of where they were standing when shot the bullet performance was moderate at best and both were killed at quite close range with broadside shots. Make mine a magnum.... I have a 300WSM and a 375H&H for elk hunting and consider them to be the bottom and top of the reasonable range for elk rifles. Yes... My 308's are more accurate but then I'm not shooting prairie dogs at 600yds either. $bob$ | |||
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Fun hypothetical, almost as much fun as sorting out the posts according to who appears to be theorizing about killing elk and who has actually done it. I'm too late in the game to add anything special. One early post and one late post about "wrap it up" IMHO: Page 1 - BRAD (#10) [keeping a straight face] Page 3 - LDHunter (just "above" this one)[gear up]. Well said, EKM | |||
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Quote:  The 300WM is tame? I disagree. It has very stout recoil IMO. It's definitely flat shooting and hits hard but wouldn't qualify as a "nice" gun to shoot for most full grown men let alone ladies and kids. I'm not saying that you can't learn to shoot it well but it isn't a cartridge that can be qualified as easy to shoot for most people.That's probably why guys think they only have to "pull off a few shots at the range and a couple in the field".  | |||
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| one of us |
Sorry, in the grand scheme of things 300WM's just don't kick that much! Barring existing injuries, unless you are one of the many Americans who are just fascinated with the idea of fashionably sucuumbing to "recoil sensitivity", I would encourage you to "gear up" to the proposed job at hand: bull elk (800 pounds of tough) @ 350 yards (a long shot). Cal.-----Bullet---Velocity---Recoil----Recoil SMALL BORES: 270-----150gr---2600fps---17.0lbs--11.7fps---easy 308-----180-----2610------17.5-----11.7-----easy 7Rem----150-----3100------19.2-----12.1-----easy 3006----180-----2700------20.3-----12.8-----easy 300WM--180-----2960------23.5-----13.6-----easy ======================================================= MEDIUM BORES: 338WM--250-----2700------33.1-----15.4-----stout 375HH---300-----2690------36.1-----16.1-----more stout If you are going to take on a majestic bull elk at 350 yards, then I'd encourage you tool up for the task accordingly or as mentioned earlier, consider staying at home. These aren't deer, even the hide is tougher, the bones are bigger, the meat is thicker, and the body mass and 'will to live' is 3 times of that of deer. Bull elk? 350 yards? It's not enough just to hit it, you want to hit it, kill it, AND FIND IT after it dies. [IMHO those last 6 words are KEY.] -------------------------------------- BTW, 308 IS a dandy cartridge -- got one -- docile, easy, and accurate -- great to sharpen up with and one of my favorites for punching paper at the range or for deer size critters on down. Love it. When it comes to elk hunting though, my 308 doesn't even make the trip to elk camp either as a back up rifle or as a camp rifle, and for sure NOT as a first choice rifle for taking on bull elk at 350 yards. Good Luck and Good Hunting, EKM | |||
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If restricted to a choice betweeb a .308 Win. and a .300 Win. for Elk hunting where I live and hunt (B.C.) I wouldn't think twice about the choice as there is none. Last Sept. while hunting Elk on Gatho Creek in northeastern B.C., there were 9 Grizzlies within 5 miles of camp, an eight foot specimen was shot and skinned. Much of this hunting takes place in very dense forest cover and guides and hunters are regularly charged and sometimes mauled in this area as well as in the Kootenays. I know, I spent many years working alone in the bush for extended periods and have more than 40 yrs. bush experience. I primarily hunt alone and will only use my .338 Win. Mags. my .375H&H or my 9.3-74r for hunting, until the bears den up. I also use custom .45-70 lever guns with 400 gr. swifts @ 2000fps. to "help" me pack out Elk meat. So, the only sensible choice in this situation would be the .300 Win Mag. and I think that even this is too light and too fast, my next "big game" rifle will be a 9.3x62 or 9.3x64, either with 286 gr. Nozzies. Long shots are for target ranges, I have been shooting for 46 yrs and I consider any shot over about 250-300 yds to be too far away; just try to find a wounded Elk in the country we have up here before it spoils or a bloody bear comes along. | |||
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Quote: If in fact the 300 would do under 1.5 EVERYTIME I would take it! Reason....Power! You do not need fly busting accuracy for a bull elk at 300 yds or so! | |||
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kutenaymtnboy, Grizzlies, eh? That is one "minor" detail that does not show up in the ballistics books! "Use Enough Gun" takes on a new meaning when there are critters in the elk woods that can ambush/hunt you along the way. I, like yourself, like the 338WinMag and the 375HH a lot. We don't have grizzlies down here in Colorado; however, I DO like what I see happen off of the business end of those guns when it comes to "slapping down" elk. My two boys (twins) started using 338WinMags at age 19 and 160 pounds and haven't looked back. While there are folks out there that have the talent and the time to ethically take elk at 350 yards plus, I am not one of them. For me, 250 yards and under is preferrable -- a bull that is going to be dead 120 seconds after impact can cover an amazing distance through some nasty stuff and may or may not leave an easy to follow blood trail. I like to keep the start of the "crime scene" relatively close for the ocassional case where they don't go right down. Good Luck and Good Hunting, EKM | |||
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Quote: Thats nice, so what you're saying is that ego is a big part of Elk hunting and only a mans man has any business even trying. Paleease! Save it for your high school buddies. That is exactly the kind of egocentric drivel that has got people packing howitzers into the hills to kill bambi and they get in way over their heads. Irresponsible from the flip side of the coin. Maybe its the ogres who cant get it done with a 308 that should stay on the porch and think about it.. Extra powder and big biceps are no substitute for shot placement. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
So many shooters, and magnum shooter in particular, put so much faith in the ft/lbs charts. Phrases like "more power" and "slapping down" make me chuckle. Within a sensible menu of cartridge choices, bullet placement and matching the metallurgy of the projectile with the impact velocity window are central to a good kill, everything else (such as a few hundred ft/lbs) is such a distance second as to be safely labeled inconsequential. For every sub-8mm magnum (and probably for magnums in the 338-375 bores as well) there is a standard cartridge that will perform just as well on the corresponding game. Putting so much faith in a few hundred extra ft/lbs is splitting an unsplittable hair. For the vast majority of hunters, the ability to place a bullet well is the ethical constraint, not the power difference between a 308 and a 300 WM. For those worried about large predators while hunting big game, I would conjecture that more often than not a fuller (5+1) magazine is going to be a better asset that a few hundred more ft/lbs per shot from a 3+1 rifle. This, it seems, is especially true of predatory/dangerous animals that appear in numbers greater than one, or if a warning shot is in order to prevent a charge in the first place. Besides, about all that would save you from a charging grizzly in close quarters would be a head shot and I doubt a grizzly's skull would notice the difference between a 308 and a 300 WM at close range. | ||
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| <allen day> |
I don't put any faith in charts. I put my faith in a good chronograph, applicable energy formulas, well-constructed bullets, and common sense. I don't select cartridges for the sake of their romantic appeal, nor do I dumbly string along with the ignorant idea that somehow all cartridges firing bullets of the same diameter kill equally well if the bullet but lands in the right place. Such has not been my experience. No cartridge will kill any better than the cold, hard, unemotional, real-world physical numbers say it will, given equal bullet placement. Bob Hagle was the first truly honest and EXPERIENCED gunwriter to articulate this reality, back in the era when so many popular writers seemed to be preoccupied with how small a rifle you can squeek by with for hunting big, tough animals. Hagle knew better, and wrote accordingly. After all, if a .308 is supposedly just as effective as a .300 Win. Mag., then I guess a .30-30 or even a .30 M1 carbine round should be just as effective as a .308, or even a .300......... AD | ||
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| <9.3x62> |
Quote: Just for clarification, I make my claims within a "range" of cartridges that most of us would agree are reasonable. I, and most others, do not exclude the 308 from this group. To suggest that my comments apply to all things 30 caliber is not consistent with a careful reading of my post. Also, can you explain the apparent discrepency between these two statements? 1) "I don't put any faith in charts." 2) "No cartridge will kill any better than the cold, hard, unemotional, real-world physical numbers say it will, given equal bullet placement." Which "physical numbers" are you referring to? Why is it that you feel Hagle was "truly honest" whereas others, I guess, were not? | ||
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I am curious as to your actual experience living, working and hunting in Elk and/or Elk-Grizzly country? Your comments concerning both cartridge selection and techniques for handling dangerous game seem to me to be ...conjecture...of the type that can get someone killed where I have spent most of my life. "Warning Shots" are both a foolish waste of ammunition and a means of removing your sight picture from a very dangerous animal. Attempting to headshoot a Grizzly when in aggressive-attack mode is very difficult as they constantly move their heads from side to side, you must be a hell of a fine shot, if you can do this....... Most Grizzly attacks happen unexpectedly and with great speed, a heavy rifle WILL put this bear down much more readily than any lighter rifle; this is not macho bullshit, it is the voice of 40 yrs+ in the wilderness of B.C., Alberta and even Alaska. If, this were not the case, why do almost all guides use large calibers in these areas? The simple fact of the matter is that a given projectile will cause more trauma at a higher velocity, all other factors being equal. A .308 Win. is a neat cartridge, I have owned 6 of them and currently own 3; this out of the 123 guns I have owned and used since 1964.BUT, in the thick forest cover, very rugged terraine and Grizzly dense hunting conditions of B.C., this is at best a marginal cartridge and far more serious BIG GAME hunters use .300s, .338s and .375s, even .416s. Those of us who actually live here and work here just might know what we are doing; in my case, I was able to hold a job with both the B.C. Forest Service and the Alberta Forest Service working alone in Grizzly country from 1965-1993, usually for months at a time.There is very serious competition for these jobs, if you can't cut it, you don't stay. Hunting big animals in areas populated by large predators has bugger-all to do with academic theories and conjecture; it has to do with using the BEST tool for the job so you can come home in one piece. "Allen Day's" comments about Bob Hagel, I completely agree with, I should have mentioned him, he was the very best in the business. | |||
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Wow! I don't hang out here much so this may be a little late but since this is hypothetical, I would hypothetically leave both those guns at home and take my 300RUM. 180 gr X bullets at 3400fps. As the Nuge says, "Ya gotta kill 'em to grill 'em!" | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: Allen, Just as effective? No, not unless you look at it from a dead is dead position, but a 308 will do the job 99% of the time no matter how bitter that pill seems to those using nearly twice as much powder. Im sure that you are very proficent with your Echols Mag's and no pun intended but more power to you. But do you think that anyone posting here can just pick up a gun, have one built, or othwerwise obtain one, and instantly become as proficient as you simply because it is the same chambering? Ive got my doubts and that is where the classic argument between calibers falls WAY short. Practice does matter and if it is important that a custom rifle "fits" the shooter and handles well in every way then shouldnt the chambering be part of the equation? After all, shooters are more individual and unique than guns.. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Quote: Conjecture. Yes, and I labelled it as such. I have never been charged by a grizzly. Out of genuine curiosity, would you prefer 3+1 300 WM if a pride of lions or a pack of wolves had an eye for you? Grizzlies are not all that I had in mind. Most all the areas I have lived, worked (outside), and hunted in have been populated by large predators, including grizzlies, though I have not had a run-in with one. Quote: A waste of ammo especially when you have only 3+1 shots. I have used warning shots to scare off black bears any number of times by shooting the ground well in front of them. The combo of noise AND dirt flying seems to be more effective than just noise. This conduct has worked for me, doesn't compromise my sight picture much, and has perhaps avoided the need for a more serious incident. Perhaps this is totally ineffective on grizzlies, I was extrapolating from my experience with black bears, just to be clear (more conjecture). Quote: I think you're accusing me of denying something I would agree with. My statement concerned the 308 and the 300 WM. I would not extend this comparison to larger rifles. Quote: This is simply not always true. While I am more than willing to respect the experience you claim to have, this statement is based on the laws of physics and the mathematics of elastic collisions. I'll have to trust you on AK and BC field experience with grizzlies, you'll have to trust me on this one. Just as a small example of this, and since you make it sound as though you are a very experienced hunter of big and/or dangerous game, you may well subscribe to the "insurance shot", especially for big bears. If you, in fact, do this, tell me about how the animal was bowled clean over and down the nearest swale by the insurance shot. I'll save you the trouble, it probably barely moved, even with the impact of a 416. Fairly unimpressive, you have to admit. One would like to imagine all those ft/lbs man-handling the carcass. Now, some will claim that this is because the animal is on the ground, so prop it up - no difference. Some will say this is because the animal is dead; try it on an animal that is down but not dead - no difference. The "slapping down", "blow them off their feet" is one of the most pervasive myths of terminal ballistics. This is why bullet matching to impact velocity is so critical, the killing rests in the wound channel and the point and angle of entry. This is not always accomplished better with a magnum round, holding caliber constant. Magnum impact velocities result in a more rapid and more complete expansion, which is good if this occurs in the vitals. This is not so good if the majority of this terminal performance occurs in the leg muscle/bone covering the vitals. Standard calibers will, all else constant, have superior post contact weight retention and usually a superior terminal ballistic coefficient, all meaning that a longer wounded channel is often achieved, which may well be preferable in some circumstances, depending on the hit. This has been established for both standard and premium bullets. This relationship is generally true across the expansion window for most all hunting bullets (say, 1800 fps to 2800 fps). Anyway, the "blast" and their ft/lbs measure is not what kills. Quote: I wouldn't be so quick to belittle the bookworms who engineer your rifles, bullets, powder, optics, and countless other accessories necessary to a safe and successful hunt. As for which is "best" in the 308 versus 300 WM case, I maintain that an elk will not notice a few hundred less ft/lbs on impact and will die just as dead just as soon. Now, you seem to want to talk about which rifle (caliber up for grabs) to choose for hunting grizzly-infested elk country (AK, BC, etc.), which was not part of the original question. If I HAD to choose between the 308 and 300 WM in those circumstances I would still choose the 308 because of higher mag capacity and, likely, superior penetration. Now, to answer what I think is best in the conditions you have presumed, I would take my McMillan-stocked 9.3x62 in a heartbeat. Now, since I have no particular interest in being disingenuous, I will share my bear experiences, which, as I have already said, do not include shooting any grizzlies. I have however, had three close encouters of the uncomfortable kind with three medium-large black bears (330, 415, 455 lbs). In these instances all that presented was a head shot at close (24 paces) to very close (11 paces). One bear had been wounded by a fellow hunter and was evidently not up to climbing, we caught up to it finally in a patch of swampy alder. The other two I shot while walking out from a stand over bait; they always seem to show up for the chow line at dusk at the earliest. These are my close-quarters bear experiences. I dare not even tell you which "pathetic" rounds I was hunting them with... | ||
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Quote: So I suppose that "Belted Bob Hagel" was a serious BIG GAME hunter and Jack O'Connor was not, what with all the grizzlys he killed with his marginal 270.. | |||
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West, Since you went ahead and brought up the idea of �a man�s man� [I wasn�t going to say anything], you know --- as a matter of fact --- THAT DOES COME INTO PLAY, at least in our camp and several others I�ve gotten to know that set up in our drainage � the stories run similar. This is a remote/away from home elk camp � not a whimpy morning outing in the local deer patch with the ATV. Odd how bringing the elk home yearly attracts �friends� you didn�t know you had. We strive to get to know those who are wanting to join us: do family get togethers, do a day of skiing at Vail, take them summer camping in the area where we hunt and go for a �tour� with a 25 pound back pack, etc. just to sort out the whiners and the whimps from the players. You DON�T want to be stuck with in a high exertion, high pressure elk hunting environment for a week or better with folks that aren�t mentally or physically up to the task. Here are some of the dead give aways�. Paleease! Dead Give-Away Quotes: �The temperature got down to 50 degrees last night � we�re cold, I�m taking the family and going back to town� (summer orientation)! �My hands and feet are cold, I�m going to the lodge,� after 45 minutes of skiing. �You guys call this fun, screw that, I�m going back to camp�, after hiking with them a mile and a half into the summer orientation trip up at our hunting area, �Can I use my dad�s 6mm or maybe a 30-30? Anything bigger make me uncomfortable and I can shoot the little ones better.� All first class examples of folks we leave at home with the ESPN Outdoor channel. They all talked a good game in the beginning, but then when its time to �walk the walk� in even the most basic of measures, all the tell tale indicators start popping up that they simply lack the �right stuff�. Honestly, they are better off putting their money and their vacation days towards a family trip to Disneyland with the wife and kids � everyone on both sides ends up much happier. Ego or no ego, democratic or not, fair or not, politically correct or not, the process makes for a strong, tight, effective hunting group that doesn�t have to endure fools or �whimps�. Even my wife and adventure mate who goes to elk camp, does the cooking and helps me set up the spike camp 4 miles back in, and then ramrods the �in camp� butchering has proven more durable than some of these �mama�s boys�. These �gentlemen� certainly have the right to go up in the mountains and play with their pop guns --- just not on our watch. One batch did head up after doing a small piece of the summer orientation so they had a partial idea where we hunt before their colors showed through. They arrived Friday nite in a snow flurry for the Saturday opener, slept in, didn�t get far from the road and then they went home empty handed Sunday after we came up from spike camp, plodded down the road past their camp en route to ours with elk laden horses and slung magnum rifles. At that point all the theoretical BS walked and it was the experience and results that talked. A lot of theory and conjecture in this thread �-- a sign of weakness in one�s position. I�ve seen some mighty experienced folks, way more experienced than me, weigh in on this one, to no avail. Maybe someone should just count up the tally, announce the score, and call the game. --------------------------------------------- 93 If you bother to study the �chart� you�ll notice the only ft/lbs is for measuring recoil in an carefully ignored attempt to show that �big, bad, ugly, mean, terrifying, mind scarring� 300WinMag is very little different recoil wise from the 270/308/3006 family using proportionate bullet weights. Phrases like �more power� and �slapping down� give us a real good chuckle too � very satisfying -- what a pleasure it is to see elk just consistently crumple instead of running off without so much as a stagger or a flinch. It�s a beautiful sound when the bullet impact sounds like someone taking a full overhead swing with a 5 pound sledge at the pommel of a leather saddle Whackkkthud! �Leapin� lizards Batman, these guys shoot magnums AND they are accurate --- what the h*** do we do now?� BTW, Dueling Quotes? Dueling Books? Dueling Gun Writers Tell me, you�re just kidding! Still like: BRAD, page 1 and tenth, AND LRHunter, page 3 last one, AND Atkinson is always a treat. (I always gotta respect his advice even when I don't agree.) Good Luck and Good Hunting, EKM | |||
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| one of us |
Hitting the animal at 350 yards is more than attainable by either caliber. However, IHO I think the .308 is marginal for that range. Hit the elk square in the lungs no problem. Get a wind drift and hit the shoulder and you will have a bigger chance of crippling the animal. My advice is always plan for the worst case senario. Thats why I drive a Tahoe instead of a civic. | |||
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Tracker12, 4 lines of common sense. Butttt, it really all about "car placement" if I properly "place" a civic I can "take them out" every bit as good as your Tahoe! I like Expeditions personally. EKM | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
EKM: Just for the record, I was not commenting on your recoil figures, but rather ft/lbs of the projectile. So don't be too offended that I didn't ponder your chart in more detail. You, and a few others, seem quite proud to malign conjecture. However, I suspect you have made plenty of statements about rifles and hunting that you have not completed first hand. In fact, this entire thread is likely conjecture on nearly every participant's part. Why? Because the only way to really determine one way or another if there is a meaningful difference would require a controlled study (preferably with a sample size greater than 30 for each round). Unless YOU have killed 30+ elk in nearly identical circumstances (300 yd shot, etc.) as 30+ elk with a 300 WM, then your conclusions are just as much conjecture as my own. The difference is, I am willing to explicitly note my conjectures, whereas few others seem willing to do so. I would invite you to hunt black bears with a 35 rem (in the woods) or a 250-3000 in more open woods; you may be stunned to see how fast such obsolete rounds can pile up game, and, if my experience is any indicator, often in a dramatic fashion that, I suspect, would amaze most magnum users. In truth, I am not surprised by your success with a 300 WM, I have been hunting elk with an 8x57 since the mid 80s, and I have yet to have an elk take a step after being hit. Now, I have not shot that many elk, no doubt not nearly as many as you, and the farthest was just under 250 paces. If my 8x57 fails me (ballistically), I will happily switch. Until then, presuming that I need more gun would be nothing more than, well, conjecture. I can't help but wonder how many NA magnum users spent any time hunting game with standard rounds instead of their magnum counterparts; say, a 270 or 280 instead of a 7mm RM or a 25-06 instead of a 257 WM or a 30-06 instead of a 300 WM or even a 9.3x62 instead of a 338 WM or 375 H&H. Of those that have, how many can honestly blame the round as opposed to the hit or the bullet choice? How many can honestly conclude that if the bullet had arrive (in precisely the same spot, mind you) with a few hundred more ft/lbs that it would have made all the difference. Sounds like conjecture to me... | ||
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| <allen day> |
9.3, when I say, "I don't put any faith in charts", I mean exactly this: There's no way of know exactly what a given load is going to give you in terms of velocity out of a given rifle without the use of a chronograph. For example, I've seen 180 gr. .30-06 factory loads that were claimed by the manufacturer (listed on their charts) to produce 2700 fps., yet went out at a bit over 2500 fps. when actually fired over the chronograph (we call it the "truth machine"!). I've seen this sort of reality come to bear time and again with a variety of cartridges. I'd don't assume ANYTHING about a given load until it's thoroughly tested under a variety of weather conditions and run over a chronograph. Charts are fine for giving you a rough idea of what you MIGHT expect out of a load, but until the numbers are proven out of YOUR rifle, those charts are just a collection of numbers on paper. Westernhunter, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was, if velocity and the resulting delivered energy differences between two cartridges of the same caliber (i.e. .308 & .300), are meaningless, then it would be safe to assume that a .30 MI carbine round should be just as effective as either the .308 or the .300. Of course we know that such is not the case. The pipsqueek .30 MI carbine round is by no means the equal of the .308, or even the .30-30, and is surely underpowered compared to the .30-06. In the same light, the .308 is no .300 Winchester......... You mentioned Jack O'Connor and grizzlies. According to O'Connor he killed two grizzlies with the .270. I'm aware of brown and polar bears (record specimens) that were taken with the .270. At one time, the world record grizzly was taken by a native American woman near Bella Coola, B.C. with, I believe, a .22 LR. And of course, who can forget about W.D.M. and the near 1,000 elephants that we took with a 7X57. Despite these past performances, big game hunting today is a different ballgame that it was in previous generations, and for a whole host of reasons. Elk hunting has changed dramatically from when I got started as a boy some thirty years ago. Yesterday's performances need to be reconciled against today's realities, and today, you need more gun, pure and simple. I didn't start out with an Echols rifle in one hand and a box of gilt-edge .300 Winchester cartridges in the other. Like a lot of guys, I started out with a .30-06, and in my case, it was a Model 700 ADL. I still own that rifle today. I didn't start out shooting the .30-06 well at age fifteen. I had to work my way into it and learn how to deal with the recoil. In time, I did. In time, I saw the difference in killing power between the .30-06 and cartridges such as the .300 Winchester and .338 Winchester on elk. So I moved up to those cartridges, learned their secrets, and learned to shoot them. This came at a price, and that price was an investment of components, loading bench time, and time spent at the range. I didn't convice myself that because they were harder to shoot than my .30-06 was that I couldn't learn to shoot them well, so I might as well just stick with the lighter-kicing stuff. Perception is everything. As a man thinketh, so is he.... If a guy is convince that he can only handle, for example, a .243, well.... that .243 is all he's ever going to be able to handle......... AD | ||
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